Guild Wars 2

Glorious exposition, comrade.

Is your cognition working as intended?

But when a guardian can 3v1 with 14k health and retaliation and never fall below half health while killing the 3 fighting him somethings wrong.

Mesmer or, 5 mesmers vs 5 non mesmer players = 20 vs 5

Thief : I can spam high burst skills all time and you no… (initiative is a fail)

Guardian: look at me 100% time retaliation , i can kill you and i dont need to move.

yes, we only need 3 classes in GW2 Anet should delete necros,rangers,engis,warriors and eles.

nerf op classes or buff all others.

the guardian thing is a problem with retaliation, just like most out of line dps for thief (and some other classes) is haste effects (way OP).

and urdriel, stop bein ga troll man.

initiative is designed so we can “spam” as you call it. it gives us the option to use our damage or utility back to back, at the expense and risk of bein gable ot run out of being able to do anything (no initiative) for a few seconds.

i also find warriors and to a slightly lesser extent rangers/engineers to be balanced. they may haev some tweaking to skilsl and certain weapon sets, but they are hardly weak.

necros and eles tho, need buffs imo

Retaliation only kills glass cannon specs. A decent condition ranger will eat up a good ret guardian and laugh at him.

Whats your point? That the thief is able to backstab and steal as they intended? WOW AMAZING THANK YOU SO MUCH OP I NEVER NOTICED.

Or are you trying to imply that everything is balanced, because a guardian can guard people? Eles are balanced just because they use elements as stated on the GW2 website?

Some of you dudes are really grasping for straws aint you.

The op is the same troll that posted the same exact crap on the other posts. Ignore the troll….

Soysauce calling someone else a troll…pot,kettle,black. Good stuff.

aydenunited.5729:

Retaliation only kills glass cannon specs. A decent condition ranger will eat up a good ret guardian and laugh at him.

whats funny is a good condition spec also stomps all over thieves too (we have very little in ways to remove condition damage)

This Wolfe guy is hilarious, Dont nerf my class bro, I want to stay OP.

Visualize.4319:

This Wolfe guy is hilarious, Dont nerf my class bro, I want to stay OP.

if you nerf it ill still beat you to death with it /shrug

no, i simply try to bring the voice of reason to a bunch of people who think they shouldnt have to worry about a stealth dps oriented class in teamplay.

ive seen multiple times people say “i cant see the thief in the middle of a fight” ya you can, you just need to learn the game enough to discern something from the chaos.

hell i even said haste needs nerfed (all haste effects not just the thief skill haste), sword MIGHT need nerfed, but not very much, just a tweak.

and the only issue with backstab damage is how things stack (150% damage signet, 20% more damage when target is below 50%, you can even get armor runes that ups this by 10-12% i believe, and certain minor traits increase damage by another 10% given certain conditions. combine with might stacks which a thief can apply i think 6 before he gets the backstab off….its a stacking issue. I dont use assassins signet, and only give myself one stack from steal trait, but i am fairly glass cannon specced, i do take soldiers amulet tho for more hp. my backstab crits never exceed 8k in group situations, and thats on glass cannons, try 4-6k crits on things like warriors or guardians. and thats on a non spam skill.

you can say its op, but here is what i know, thieves are about two things, avoidance, and damage. we dont have a lot of direct team support (black powder imo being probably the best support we can offer along with shadow refuge). its a fairly selfish class. im for balancing, just not nerfing into the ground like the crybabies want.

Visualize.4319:

This Wolfe guy is hilarious, Dont nerf my class bro, I want to stay OP.

Agreed with Wolfe, actually. Try it out sometime. Whether it’s my shortbow Ranger, P/D thief, or D/D Thief (all condition builds) I have zero problems with HS and PW Thieves. Whereas with Sword Ranger, it becomes about having CDs up and ready as soon as they appear, and with my Thief the only Thieves I lose to are condition-based.

Seriously, forgo your “epic burst” and try a condition build some time. Thieves will only commonly have 2 condition removals – Hide in Shadows, and Shadowstep. Not all builds bring both, and they have rather lengthy CDs. Stack those bleeds sky high and watch as they die in stealth. BTW you can still hit stealthed Thieves.

Wolfe.3097:

aydenunited.5729:

Retaliation only kills glass cannon specs. A decent condition ranger will eat up a good ret guardian and laugh at him.

whats funny is a good condition spec also stomps all over thieves too (we have very little in ways to remove condition damage)

can you post your pie chart of tournament games played by class? would love to see it.

@sprawl, that doesnt have nearly as much to do with something being unbalanced as you think, at least not in the way that you think.

if u see a lot of x class its because it has a low skill florr, or a higher reward vs time put in.

the initiative system is a interesting reason, it both promotes brainless activity when taken at face value, and when you dig into it more it allows great flexibility.

the entire concept of initiative is that we can forgo CD’s on our weapon sets, and use the same spell back to back in exchange for a sort of future tax and risk that if we do this too much we wont be able to use any weapon skills for a little bit.

a thief is used often not cuz its OP, but because its easy to play and see results (tho not nearly now as it used to be, most thief specs now have to ride a fine line between dying and avoiding damage)

PW thief, you try to cast PW while in melee range your gonna eat it and probably die before the animation wears off (has happened to me multiple times) that is why they precast before using things like steal, essentially skipping the wind up animation. its also why they pair utility skills that disable target from moving, cuz PW stun lasts less then 1 second

death blossom thieves literally have to keep moving or die, they stop jumping around for a second they are dead

backstab thieves rely on that backstab for there damage, it also requires long CD’s, high ini cost abilities, positioning (and any smart player isnt gonna sit there and let us get behind them) and very careful, methodical playstyle.

VS what everyone complained about before

HS add infinity

THE HOLY TRINITY!

Wolfe.3097:

the entire concept of initiative is that we can forgo CD’s on our weapon sets, and use the same spell back to back in exchange for a sort of future tax and risk that if we do this too much we wont be able to use any weapon skills for a little bit.

Yeah but to continue the metaphor the problem is with the right spec you have so many tax deductions that the tax ends up being miniscule.

Thief needs tax reform to close some of those loopholes.

AmoreDeus.3076:

But when a guardian can 3v1 with 14k health and retaliation and never fall below half health while killing the 3 fighting him somethings wrong.

and if you didnt spam attacks on the guy with retalliation up…. how many people would he have killed?
ZERO

here are the classes in FLAVOR OF THE MONTH rankings

1) SHORTBOW CROSSFIRE SPAMMING RANGERS
2) Thief with Daggers (ZOMG WHY 4 DID dey nurf meh hartS3K0rZ!!!?
3) 2hand sword/staff mezmers
4)2h warriors

i cant count guardians as a problem since all they do is live, deal no damage unless you attack them and then die.

only.. you CAN kill a guardian 1v1 eventually it just takes a while, they cant run from you. while you can NEVER kill a mesmer or thief unless they are being over aggressive or greedy… yet they also have enough offense to kill any class 1v1 and sometimes 2v1.

Yukishiro.8792:

Wolfe.3097:

the entire concept of initiative is that we can forgo CD’s on our weapon sets, and use the same spell back to back in exchange for a sort of future tax and risk that if we do this too much we wont be able to use any weapon skills for a little bit.

Yeah but to continue the metaphor the problem is with the right spec you have so many tax deductions that the tax ends up being miniscule.

Thief needs tax reform to close some of those loopholes.

funny post but accurate. currently you can use your burst abilitys back to back to back to back which is enough to kill 1 target but then you also have enough escape utility to get away and resume the process all over again.
raise your hand if you have been backstabed or hartsekor teleport spamed to death only to watch the thief get away.

for thief getting away you have to understand our initiative is only tied to our weapon sets, our dodging, and healing/elite/utility skills are still Cd based. so after initiative we have 2-6 dodges still (depending on traits and utiltiy skills), shortbow for when ini regens, non ini cost stealth and dodge type skills that have Cd’s.

Im not gonna argue initiative regen, as i havent delved into it enough to make a informed argument about it. maybe thats where the nerf needs to be, maybe not /shrug.

but initiative is only half our skills.

but another question, outside of WvWvW when do you have thieves running away? I was never good at this mentality, the most ive ever ran away was to the next objective.

not too mention that if they are running away, they arent doing anything for there team.

i dunno, i never run away in pvp, tho i dont WvWvW, but at the same time WvWvW is not really ever gonna be close to balanced, anet has said that themselves.

i have never killed a thief on my guardian that didnt want to be killed.
they all run away if they get low on health and vanish. the vanish lasts longer than the burns
same with my ele… unless i am playing a burst spec and kill him in the opening window when he isnt looking, he will get away or just spam HS in my face since you can spam HS more times than people can dodge away.

urdriel.8496:

Guardian: look at me 100% time retaliation , i can kill you and i dont need to move.

they need to “move” it don’t deliver back 5k hits it only hit 300ish while their attacks is already weak.

Memser, Thief, and Guardian are 40% of the professions in this game.

BishopX.6453:

AmoreDeus.3076:

But when a guardian can 3v1 with 14k health and retaliation and never fall below half health while killing the 3 fighting him somethings wrong.

and if you didnt spam attacks on the guy with retalliation up…. how many people would he have killed?
ZERO

here are the classes in FLAVOR OF THE MONTH rankings

1) SHORTBOW CROSSFIRE SPAMMING RANGERS
2) Thief with Daggers (ZOMG WHY 4 DID dey nurf meh hartS3K0rZ!!!?
3) 2hand sword/staff mezmers
4)2h warriors

i cant count guardians as a problem since all they do is live, deal no damage unless you attack them and then die.

only.. you CAN kill a guardian 1v1 eventually it just takes a while, they cant run from you. while you can NEVER kill a mesmer or thief unless they are being over aggressive or greedy… yet they also have enough offense to kill any class 1v1 and sometimes 2v1.

Q: do you ever play tournaments? how can you claim/reclaim a point from someone you can’t hit? And how do you win when you can’t claim/hold points?

I ran up against a group comprised of all Guardians in tournament play over the weekend. All of which specced for retaliation and none of which could be moved from a node. When I asked about it before the match all they said was “In B4 Nerf”…

Guardians in tournaments. Well wouldn’t that be your teams fault for not bringing a Necro or any condition based build thief, mes, ranger, warrior, or ele ?
I see a lot of complaining about comp, if they are bringing a lot of 1 class and 1 build, and you bring a lot of 1 build that their team is built to counter (ie: glass cannons) that is no a balance issue but a planning ahead issue on your part.

LiuliRenai.3928:

Memser, Thief, and Guardian are 40% of the professions in this game.

Neah .. 100% of the VIABLE professions in this game.

CC counters thief DPS builds hard, but people are too busy building as much damage as possible. Thief has a very low amount of condition removal and break stuns when compared to other classes, and people just refuse to admit this. Thief is a winner in terms of burst vs. burst builds, and you can’t expect the game to adapt to your playstyle simply because the thief class is beating you in 1v1 when he is the counter to your build.

Guardians lack mostly any chasing utility or running away utility. This means they’re completely vulnerable to kiting and conditions (although they do have a decent amount of condition removals). Obviously if it’s a Retaliation oriented build, they’re going to be dominating glass cannon builds (which is what like 95% of the playerbase is building right now).

Mesmers don’t really deal a lot of damage. If they’re pure glass cannon, they’re easy to kill. Honestly, the only thing I think is even wrong with Mesmers is Moa Transformation. Ten seconds is just too long for any sort of transformation or CC that you can’t get out of.

This game is rather balanced, but people are too busy using one build in sPVP that they fail to realize all classes have a counter, just like intended. If you’re losing to burst classes, try building condition damage, vitality, and HP rather than power, precision and critical damage. You’ll notice a pretty large difference.

Krathalos.3461:

CC counters thief DPS builds hard, but people are too busy building as much damage as possible. Thief has a very low amount of condition removal and break stuns when compared to other classes, and people just refuse to admit this. Thief is a winner in terms of burst vs. burst builds, and you can’t expect the game to adapt to your playstyle simply because the thief class is beating you in 1v1 when he is the counter to your build.
Guardians lack mostly any chasing utility or running away utility. This means they’re completely vulnerable to kiting and conditions (although they do have a decent amount of condition removals). Obviously if it’s a Retaliation oriented build, they’re going to be dominating glass cannon builds (which is what like 95% of the playerbase is building right now).
Mesmers don’t really deal a lot of damage. If they’re pure glass cannon, they’re easy to kill. Honestly, the only thing I think is even wrong with Mesmers is Moa Transformation. Ten seconds is just too long for any sort of transformation or CC that you can’t get out of.
This game is rather balanced, but people are too busy using one build in sPVP that they fail to realize all classes have a counter, just like intended. If you’re losing to burst classes, try building condition damage, vitality, and HP rather than power, precision and critical damage. You’ll notice a pretty large difference.

But those things that the class lacks, they don’t need in their role in a team game.

A thief is built to be a roamer, which means they come in later to team fights (both offensive or defensive), or initiate and resolve 1v1s when the rest of the team is accounted for. Their whole purpose is to be mobile and finish fights quickly. This they do better than any other class, and they also have the advantage of having steal/burst for mob steals, Z-axis mobility, and stealth to be able to disengage fights quickly. Thieves need a change to their initiative mechanic, because it its current form it just encourages spam, as you just utilize the highest initiative to damage ability for your build.

A guardian does not need to chase, nor should the guardian ever be running as the point defender. There are plenty of LOS objects for a Guardian to force someone towards them, and Guardians usually run a decent amount of condi removal as a point defender. If you are not contesting the point then the guardian is doing its job. Kiting/Condi damage will allow the point to be reinforced. They are the best point defender, and the problem really is with their “passive” damage output from Retaliation, because of the high uptime. Further, a guardian gives support to team fights as well.

Mesmers bring a lot of utility to group fights, but also have great 1v1 capability. Mesmers don’t even really have to spec or give up personal output to bring a lot of strong utility. Moa is not even the most powerful elite (especially since guardian book was nerfed). Time Warp is a much better elite skill, as it cannot be blocked/dodged and it swings a team fight more than Moa, even though Moa can be quite frustrating. Mesmers are strong even without portal/treb gimmicks.

I actually agree that the game is rather balanced. But, certain classes do need slight tweaks. The problem with your solution of building tanky or building for conditions, however, is that the game encourages these higher dps builds at least for a majority of your team. If you cannot clear a node faster than the spawn timers/reinforcements then you won’t get anywhere, and all the other team needs is one person to deny you the point. Finishing fights quickly is paramount, as you can mobilize your forces elsewhere, teams that get bogged down in protracted fights usually lose. Further the mobs (both Lord and Forest) encourage quick kills as any protracted fight can result in a steal or defend, and you want power based damage for killing the treb (once they fix the portal/treb business). You only need a couple of durable members to hold your nodes.

highest initiative to damage ability? proof you dont play thief.

there is no highest initiative to damage ability, there is our damage ability, and our utility skills.

also stealth lasts 3-4 seconds, how are they getting away in that time? only thing i can think is they go around a corner and hope you dont find them?

also condition damage, its the thieves arguably greatest weakness. stealth only makes us go invisible, it doesnt remove all conditions and put us back tp full hp while giving us super speed.

wait.. a team full of retal guardians… so what happened when you ate them alive with the range?
or have your mezmers combo field them and remove boons?
retal without protection and might would be rather pointless eh?
and condition damage?

wait.. a team full of retal guardians… so what happened when you ate them alive with the range?
or have your mezmers combo field them and remove boons?
retal without protection and might would be rather pointless eh?
and condition damage?seriously take a step back from your own class biased for a moment….
which is worse
a class that cant escape and cant kill you but takes a long time to take down and can kill you if you are stupid/make a mistake

wait.. a team full of retal guardians… so what happened when you ate them alive with the range?
or have your mezmers combo field them and remove boons?
retal without protection and might would be rather pointless eh?
and condition damage?seriously take a step back from your own class biased for a moment….
which is worse
a class that cant escape and cant kill you but takes a long time to take down and can kill you if you are stupid/make a mistakeOR

wait.. a team full of retal guardians… so what happened when you ate them alive with the range?
or have your mezmers combo field them and remove boons?
retal without protection and might would be rather pointless eh?
and condition damage?seriously take a step back from your own class biased for a moment….
which is worse
a class that cant escape and cant kill you but takes a long time to take down and can kill you if you are stupid/make a mistakeORa class that has enough offense to kill you if you are defensive and enough defense to never die unless he makes SEVERAL mistakes and is easy to play.