Guild Wars 2

(I mean excluding downed state)

I see a lot of people saying mesmer is OP, but without really explaining why (outside of downed.

They can counter almost every other class without gimmicky glass cannon builds, but in all honesty, all classes should be able to.

Most of the OP builds for other classes require some glass cannon build (100b, HS), but the mesmer builds don’t. At least from what I’ve seen.
The only other class that comes close is guardian, maybe engineers (pre nerfs at least).

Are they unbalanced, yes, compared to everyone else.
OP? No, everyone else is just UP.

(excluding down state, that’s OP)
Just my thoughts on balance.

They can counter almost every other class without gimmicky glass cannon builds, but in all honesty, all classes should be able to.

But they don’t, so… what you are saying is that mesmer is the only profession to counter everyone, so it’s fine ?

Mesmer downstate is not OP. Just find the right Mesmer which shouldn’t be too hard since it’s usually the guy with the arrow above his head.

personally i agree.

As things stand now, mesmers and guardians ( and engeneers, to a certain degree) are the only REAL classes able to achieve what aNet stated long ago: skill will overcome builds.

Sadly other classes can’t even come close to this goal, and that’s why guardians and mesmers are considered overpowered, while the point is that other classes are simply not as good as them.

I just hope aNet will find a way to balance this out, because tourney teams already found how potent double mesmers-guardians can be, and if they’re trying other comps is simply for the lulz.

Qtin.6940:

They can counter almost every other class without gimmicky glass cannon builds, but in all honesty, all classes should be able to.

But they don’t, so… what you are saying is that mesmer is the only profession to counter everyone, so it’s fine ?

Did you stop reading at that point or something?

Their not overpowered, all other classes are underpowered? good argument there bra

How does that not sense?
They may be unbalanced, but that’s due to other classes being weak, not due to mesmer being strong.

One class being overpowered or all the others being underpowered is basically the same thing. Nonetheless your suggestion makes sense, as every class should ideally be able to beat every class, in as many different builds as possible. (Good luck with that though XD)

Call me crazy, but if one class is out of line, I think it might be easier to bring that class back in line with the others and then make other balance adjustments from there. In other words, it will probably be easier to balance 1 class with the 7 than 7 to the 1.

Just because it’s easier, doesn’t mean that’s what they should do.

Honestly, mesmer is the one class that has me considering shelving this game. mediocre mesmers, whatever. Good mesmer = /facepalm

Untouch.2541:

Just because it’s easier, doesn’t mean that’s what they should do.

Actually, when you’re talking about balance, adopting the easier route is exactly what they should do.

Attempting to make too many changes at once, like balancing various classes based on perceived ills all at the same time, will just create new and different balance issues. However, I think Arena Net has the experience to know that attempting to do too much too soon can lead to additional, major issues. Radical changes are something you can experiment with in closed testing environments, but not release versions of the game.

Elevated.9752:

Their not overpowered, all other classes are underpowered? good argument there bra

It is a valid argument. People shouldn’t be asking Arena.net to nerf a working class and should instead ask that their class be brought up to par. As it stands mesmers can do a lot of things effectively. However they have to make sacrifices and can’t do it all at once (and thus are balanced). Most other classes can only do one thing if that.

All professions should be able to counter all professions? Ok thats the OPPOSITE of what pvp in gw2 should look like…

The arguement that every other class needs buffs, your class doesn’t need nerfs, will never work in any game.

You can debate the balance all you like, but as soon as you open with that arguement you are in a round about way saying “mesmers are better than every other profession”. If you already believe that….which is really the logical choice, buffing 7 professions, or nerfing 1?

Mesmers actually have good elites like a prof is supposed to while most do not. Mesmers have some varied and powerful utilites that for the most part serve dual purposes while many other profs are filled with weak one dimensional utilites. Thats where the Mesmers power actually comes from.

Clones and phantasm are largely meaningless as mechanics. If their effects i.e damage or shatter where removed from them and replicated by direct active effect abilities the class wouldn’t suffer much.

Scrub solution is just to lower damage when the prof isn’t a high dps prof and glass cannon mesmers aren’t close to the best spikers. People want phantasm gutted when sword can’t sustain dps in melee due to poor control, and greatsword can’t sustain decent damage at short ranges. Mesmer condition builds are subpar at best. Confusion is a nerfed nusaince in spvp and has awful durations, staff relies on fragile clones, rng rolls, slow cast times, and slow projectile speed.

I just fought a Mesmer in Khylo who was basically hidden behind a building while his phantasms were doing well good damage on me.

The Mesmer situation is getting out of hand,day by day more people try it so they can feel epic and ‘imba’,going for internet builds that do incredibly well in 1v1 even 1v2.Khylo is a good example because a good Mesmer is by far the best class for the trebuchet which in its turn makes too much difference in the final score.By the way,Khylo happens to be a tournament final,go figure.

kittenon.8572:

I just fought a Mesmer in Khylo who was basically hidden behind a building while his phantasms were doing well good damage on me.

The Mesmer situation is getting out of hand,day by day more people try it so they can feel epic and ‘imba’,going for internet builds that do incredibly well in 1v1 even 1v2.Khylo is a good example because a good Mesmer is by far the best class for the trebuchet which in its turn makes too much difference in the final score.By the way,Khylo happens to be a tournament final,go figure.

Mesmers are good for turret runs because they’re good duelists. if you’re attacking a Mesmer one on one you better have a game plan ahead of time because a Mesmer always will.

Premeditation is the Mesmer’s greatest advantage, no amount of nerfing will change that unless you gut the profession out completely.

Now, you take that claim about the trebuchet defense and you attack a Mesmer on that turret with a AoE/Condition Necro, and come back to me crying that Necro’s are OP.

Kalar Meadia.8439:

kittenon.8572:

I just fought a Mesmer in Khylo who was basically hidden behind a building while his phantasms were doing well good damage on me.

The Mesmer situation is getting out of hand,day by day more people try it so they can feel epic and ‘imba’,going for internet builds that do incredibly well in 1v1 even 1v2.Khylo is a good example because a good Mesmer is by far the best class for the trebuchet which in its turn makes too much difference in the final score.By the way,Khylo happens to be a tournament final,go figure.

Mesmers are good for turret runs because they’re good duelists. if you’re attacking a Mesmer one on one you better have a game plan ahead of time because a Mesmer always will.

Premeditation is the Mesmer’s greatest advantage, no amount of nerfing will change that unless you gut the profession out completely.

Now, you take that claim about the trebuchet defense and you attack a Mesmer on that turret with a AoE/Condition Necro, and come back to me crying that Necro’s are OP.

And then the mesmer can go grab a repair kit and have the trebuchet repaired faster than any other profession anyway even if you do kill them 1v1 or 2v1 or 3v1. You’re just wasting your time trying to keep a mesmer off a trebuchet, you get at most 15-20 seconds out of it unlesss you just keep 2 people camping the trebuchet all game.

Kalar Meadia.8439:

(A random collection of latin characters).

I’m struggling to take your post seriously to begin with,having seen that you have edited my nickname.I assume you are at least 10 years younger than me,so i’m too old to understand and move on.

Which part of the Mesmer being able to just sit there watching his phantasms soloing someone and having a laugh did you not understand?I never talked about a nerf,the class would need a redesign for PvP.I’m not saying it is OP overall,only that’s it is an absolute mess,looks like it was put as a stand-alone,and is a serious waste of time to fight against to be fair.I am having no fun fighting against Mesmers like i do fighting against other classes even if they do well enough to destroy me,i seriously do not mind.But Mesmers in some,if not most, cases and especially in tight spaces where the camera does not help at all at the moment is pure frustration.

Mesmers have alot of different builds that are pretty good as well.

Necromancers.

Vlaid.5790:

And then the mesmer can go grab a repair kit and have the trebuchet repaired faster than any other profession anyway even if you do kill them 1v1 or 2v1 or 3v1. You’re just wasting your time trying to keep a mesmer off a trebuchet, you get at most 15-20 seconds out of it unlesss you just keep 2 people camping the trebuchet all game.

1. ONLY if the Mesmer is speced Portal.

2. If you’re going for quick engagements and turret destruction with a Mesmer guarding, you’re doing it wrong.

It’s bad to presume that you should destroy the Trebuchet and go on with your business. When you’re winning an engagement at turret, you remain in that area to keep the turret pressured. Remember, it’s not the 15 seconds the turret is down that you’re keeping the pressure off. It’s the full minute you’ve kept the Mesmer from using that you’ve kept that turret non-functional: Engagement time is part of the disablement time.

Again, people right now haven’t shaken the noob off the game yet. They’ve got bad ideas on how to play the game, an in turn it’s causing bad feedback to be given. I do hope the developers are taking player complaints with a horse sized salt block because they can stand to make some critical mistakes in this early period if they listen to knee-jerk reactions.

The OP is correct. Buffs over nerfs is the correct path of correcting imbalances in the game. Some negative tweeks will be necessary to balance out the overall structure. But some aggressive stances need to be taken to tell people “Hey, shut up and learn to play the game.” in many situations. Thieves, regardless of their build, can be shut down easily. Mesmers can be shut down easily. The trick is learning how instead of complaining that your specific build for your class that you love isn’t working on someone who has a build combination that works better than yours or works well against yours.

Again, I don’t complain that thieves are broken when I get caught by them. Or that Necros and Rangers are broken because my build is weak against continual conditions.

This game is too far in its infancy for people to make assertive claims like the ones being made.

kittenon.8572:

Which part of the Mesmer being able to just sit there watching his phantasms soloing someone and having a laugh did you not understand?

The part where you were moronic enough to sit and let it happen.

Phantasm spec is easy to counter – engage the mesmer. Again, condition specs are great on this because the Mesmer has, at best, one condition removal for his phantasem (Null Field) and Phantasems are easy to kill and 12 seconds minimum to return.

The person who sat and let themselves get attritioned by Phantasms was an utter moron. That’s like sitting in the sights of a ranger and not engaging him at all.

Also, I’m not changing your quote name. Blame Anet forums. I’m just hitting the quote button.

Mesmer’s are one of the better balanced classes but honestly not close to where they should be to truly be used as a reference point for the balance of other classes.

You also need to define a tier list of where other classes stand in relation to the mesmer. Right now I would say it is: Engineer=Thief=Guardian>Mesmer>Ranger>Warrior>Ele=Necro
Already at the high level of play the meta is beginning to revolve around the first 3/4

Right now mesmer has a lot of good defensive tools, that if used right can offset what another class is trying to accomplish. They also have very strong offensive capabilities in small scale fights but that begins to break down a bit in larger fights. For this reason there 1v1 potential is very high but not without hard counters such as leeching venom shortbow thieves, bunker elementalists and soft counters of a well played warrior. So I would say mesmer’s 1v1 potential is a tad bit too strong.

In team fights they transition a bit more into a supportive role with some potential to land a couple big hits as they rely on their shatters/phantasms for a large chunk of damage, both of which are prone to get shut down in larger fights. They aren’t quite ideal for larger fights but can participate depending on where the fight is taking place and what the opponent is bringing to that fight. For this I would say their supportive options aren’t quite enough to allow them to effectively transition roles in team fights to stay on par with other class options in larger fights given how much their damage potential dips in team fights.

But the biggest problem with mesmer’s is portal repairing.

I don’t think there is a clear tier list because players haven’t experimented enough builds to really doll out the potential within each profession yet.

The classes with clearly visible build combinations will usually stand out on top over those that take a bit of getting to know in order to be fully realized (Phantasm Damage build vs Ele Aura Build as example.)

I’m hearing a lot of complaints about Moa Morph, which is essentially a 10 second daze on a 3 minute cooldown. IMO there are more dangerous abilities that shut down or cause a change in fight, but Moa is the most powerful 1v1 ability. They could balance it out if it came with a stun-breaker sprint button aside from dodge to give a Moaed person a disengage tool, but that’s just a suggestion. I don’t even use it because it’s not as effective in group fights. Mass Invisibility is a stronger engage/disengage tool for it’s cooldown for my build specifically, but milage between players will vary.

Kalar Meadia.8439:

I’m hearing a lot of complaints about Moa Morph, which is essentially a 10 second daze on a 3 minute cooldown. IMO there are more dangerous abilities that shut down or cause a change in fight, but Moa is the most powerful 1v1 ability. They could balance it out if it came with a stun-breaker sprint button aside from dodge to give a Moaed person a disengage tool, but that’s just a suggestion. I don’t even use it because it’s not as effective in group fights. Mass Invisibility is a stronger engage/disengage tool for it’s cooldown for my build specifically, but milage between players will vary.

So taking someone out for 10 seconds in a team fight at mid is very minor? Making a 4v4 into a 3v4 is quite disruptive. In tournament there’s a lot of situations where you do come up 1v1. If you’re fighting 1v2 you Moa one and make it a 1v1 situation again.

I personally don’t really see the need to nerf mesmers other than the stupid instant treb repair with portal. Mesmers are a requirement in Khylo or you put your team at an incredible disadvantage.

Kiirin.3418:

So taking someone out for 10 seconds in a team fight at mid is very minor? Making a 4v4 into a 3v4 is quite disruptive. In tournament there’s a lot of situations where you do come up 1v1. If you’re fighting 1v2 you Moa one and make it a 1v1 situation again.

I personally don’t really see the need to nerf mesmers other than the stupid instant treb repair with portal. Mesmers are a requirement in Khylo or you put your team at an incredible disadvantage.

You forget the cooldown.

It’s 3 minutes for 10 seconds of an engagement. Most times, punishing a 1v2 into a 1v1 for 10 seconds isn’t going to do anything for you if your opponents have any intelligence about them. A good team turtles out of the engagement until the Moa is over and reingages.

It can be the difference between a stomp and an enemy saving one of their teammates, but that’s 3 minutes spent for something like that, and it can be dodged and aegised. If playing for an important teamfight, timewarp is going to be much more powerful, because it gives your entire team that performance perk, that field effect, AND the quick-stomp.

Or if you’re playing long term manipulation, the AoE Invisible can give you a clean reset for fights, or a powerful engagement. It can enable invisible stomps and heals.

Again, Moa is a powerful ability, but it’s over-hyped because people hate being shut out of an engagement. Now, there are ways of making it seem less of a cheapshot and more of a “You got hit with something big, deal with it.” A larger tell might make it better or even a projectile (so long as it paths and can’t be obscured.) A mesmer has far more deadly tools on their kit.

Moa just seems the most anti-fun.

To be honest I’ve stopped using moa, it’s got a long cast time a big cooldown and seems best for hosing bads…..I really don’t need any help with that where as timewarp will rip a team fight in half and mass invis gets you a free res or stomp.

EDIT: That said I’m still in favor of the reduced duration/short CD that I suggested quite a while ago on the mesmer forums.

Dont expect people who main mesmers like Kalar to agree.

Kenny.2530:

Dont expect people who main mesmers like Kalar to agree.

I’m sorry, agree on what? That Moa is powerful? It is. But it’s not broken. Again, the cooldown is so prohibitive that I don’t use it – as a mesmer main.

As far as agreeing to the cooldown/duration adjustment? I’m open to a little bit of experimentation on that, actually. How to balance that out though is a question.

My essential problem with it is that I don’t see how it fits within Mesmer’s kit at all. So many illusion skills and time manipulation skills, and suddenly we have a transform? I’d rather they scrap the ability and replace it with something more thematic from that perspective. (Like a short duration full on clone that duplicates your exact stats damage, and actions.)

But it’s not mechanically broken. Just anti-fun.

Believe me, I hate when I get Moaed too. But that’s not the reason it should be changed. This isn’t a balancing issue, it’s just a player complaint, much like my complaint about it.

Dont expect people who main mesmers like Kalar to agree.

I main mesmer and I often find myself wondering whether mesmers are OP. Then I go for weeks without ever meeting another mesmer or when I do meet them they are complete and utter trash. It’s not like the HB build for warrior where I can obviously say “this iskitten for XYZ reasons”. I can see why I’m winning and can understand what my opponent’s did wrong, like the rangers who unload all their burst into a feedback, I’ve just never really met anyone that I felt played at a level where they should beat me. Well I lie, I have met these players and it results in some awesome and quite long duels where very rarely am I left feeling that they are hideously underpowered compared to me.

The feeling I’m getting at the moment is very much the same feeling I got for years on my feral, where I would eat people alive with what felt like very little effort. Difference was I knew my feral was underpowered and that I was phenomenally good with it, I also knew that my opponent had no idea what he was doing because I had faced people who did.

So I’m kinda in the situation where I feel really powerful but I’m not sure if it’s me, the class or the fact nobody else has a clue what they are doing.