Guild Wars 2

Two classes me and many others find too powerful currently, I will start with the Thief.

Thief- I mean they already have amazing mobility, able to get across the map almost as fast as an elementalist, their burst is insane with pistol whip or heartseeker strike spamming alone, They can burst you down in a couple seconds with their band of these elite plus 2 extra thieves alone, it’s crazy.

Couple that with the ability to dodge every second and immobalize you, you cannot dodge or do anything to stop your death, not to mention the ability to stealth and teleport around when you kill them.

HS/PW are considered OP by many when used with quickness.
That’s the main problem people have along with HS being a gap closer and a burst skill that can be spammed, doing more and more DMG as the target HP is lower.
So even if you dodge, the thief will be on top of you using HS. Also if he is out of initiative he can steal on you, and if traited correctly, it will give him more initiative to just HS/PW you again.
Most people getkitten because in order to survive the thief, most classes need your major cooldowns/elite up, along with full endurance.
1-2 minutes into a fight you are exposed to thiefs burstin you down if below or around 80% HP.

Mesmer- Mesmers have the ability to play 4 roles in one build instead of being able to focus on only phantasms, or illusion, but they can do everything, have great survivability, do insane damage, have 3 illusions at once? It’s already hard enough to find the right one!

The “Moa Morph” Elite is far too powerful, It’s basically a 10 second stun. Sure you can move, but very slowly and you do no damage at all.

Downed state on Mesmers is more annoying than thieves, they make a copy of themselves on the ground similar to a thief teleporting around with stealth making you waste much more time trying to down them.

Their ability to play every role (Not to mention the annoyingness of a portal mesmer repairing the trebuchet), do insane amounts of damage (especially with greatsword/pistol sword), Have fantastic survivability, and spam clones of yourself to confuse your enemy’s makes this class too powerful. They can be single handedly the best 1v1 class in the game.

Make it so mesmers have to actually invest points into say phantasms, supporting, power/damage output to focus on 1 single role instead of being able to play 3+ roles in one build.

Also, I believe the downed state teleport for the thief and the clone for the mesmer should only be able to be used ONCE during each downed state.

Opinions?

P.S: While you’re here feel free to look at my “More reward out of PVP thread”, we need more support!

Bah.. Did you consider the Guardian? Almost impossible for a thief alone to bring down a ‘’never-ending self healing machine’’ .
Thus the engineer? An engineer only needs to lay some mines and 2 turrets to evaporate some of the Mesmer’s illusions.
I believe the system is balanced and people should test different ways, weapons, tactics in game which suits each situation.

Spyly.5749:

Bah.. Did you consider the Guardian? Almost impossible for a thief alone to bring down a ‘’never-ending self healing machine’’ .
Thus the engineer? An engineer only needs to lay some mines and 2 turrets to evaporate some of the Mesmer’s illusions.
I believe the system is balanced and people should test different ways, weapons, tactics in game which suits each situation.

The 3 turrets is usualy from the elite skill Supply Crate with 180s cd. However, i dont feel that mesmer and thief are extremly OP (im playing an engineer). All you have to do is play smart against them

Seeing you wrote that mesmer have 5+ clones up at same time just stops me taking you serious.

You are new to the game, you don’t know the other classes. You shouldn’t complain about balance until you tried out the other classes. The players are probably just 10x better than you.

Why?

1. Mesmer can only have 3 illusions (clones + phantasms) up at the same time
2. The real mesmer in downed state has a red arrow above his head. It’s real easy to find the real one once u figure out how the teleport works.
3. Do insane amount of damage? Just kill the phantasms, takes 1-2 hits, if you do an Aoe they all die.
4. "spam clones of yourself to confuse your enemy’s ", Ofc, that’s the mesmers job, confuse the enemy. But with Ctrl + T you can easily mark them and always find them back unless they use “Decoy”, which has a 40sec CD (Or torch skill, but noone uses torch)
5. Make mesmers invest points in something? We gotta go to the 25th talent point in a healing tree, with very few good traits for DPS, to get 15% damage boost, the other 15% is in a totally different trait line.

Mesmers are for sure in a good spot, maybe a bit too much dependent of the fragile phantasms. But not OP at all if you know how to fight one.

For thiefs, I only played a few times on thief. Just spamming dodge + death blossom to stack bleeds. So easy that anyone can play it. And they got other specs which also require you to only press 1-2 buttons. They just need to higher the skill cap to get such damage output. Now everyone can do it.

BlackDeath.7834:

Mesmer Have 5+ illusions at once? It’s already hard enough to find the right one!

I don’t think you know how Illusions work.

The “Moa Morph” Elite is far too powerful, It’s basically a 10 second stun. Sure you can move, but very slowly and you do no damage at all.

I agree it’s pretty powerful. I prefer the AoE “Kill everything” elite myself.

Downed state on Mesmers is more annoying than thieves, they make a copy of themselves on the ground similar to a thief teleporting around with stealth making you waste much more time trying to down them.

I know. It’s great.

Their ability to play every role (Not to mention the annoyingness of a portal mesmer repairing the trebuchet), do insane amounts of damage (especially with greatsword/pistol sword), Have fantastic survivability, and spam clones of yourself to confuse your enemy’s makes this class too powerful. They can be single handedly the best 1v1 class in the game.

I don’t play Greatsword or have a pistol, so I can’t comment on that.

Make it so mesmers have to actually invest points into say phantasms, supporting, power/damage output to focus on 1 single role instead of being able to play 3+ roles in one build.

I’m not exactly sure what you mean by playing 3+ roles in one build. Can you clarify?

I was obviously over-exaggerating the numbers in my post, But I figured the Mesmer & thief players would be the ones posting trying to back up how “even” their class is.

It might be a little too early to tell who is overpowerd/underpowerd. I’ve been in plenty of fights where I’ve dominated the person, where the match goes on for a while and is very even, and sometimes I find my health at 1/4th when a fight barely started.

I will say that the “downed” state on mesmers is pretty ridiculous.

BlackDeath.7834:

I was obviously over-exaggerating the numbers in my post, But I figured the Mesmer & thief players would be the ones posting trying to back up how “even” their class is.

Just for your information, I also play ranger in pvp and haven’t complained about thieves or mesmers overkilling anyone.
And also, people also post their opinion. Maybe you should try playing the characters you mentioned and see for yourself the truth and the complexity of each. Characters are far from imbalanced. You just need to play smart and with skill.

The Heartseeker build ist way too easy to play for its damage output. It is also boring to see so many of them =)
I think Mesmer is ok since they seem to die fast against AoE damage.

I think Moa Morph is overpowered in its current form. It needs to have a shorter duration. Their illusions generally are useless. I just place a mark on the real mesmer and never have to worry about getting faked out. The only illusion that’s trouble is the pistol one – but he dies in a couple of hits, or just toss up a reflect wall and it kills itself.
Basically, you have to kill the pistol illusion, ignore the rest and dps down the mesmer and he’s toast, or he’ll run away.
With thieves you need to have a lot of hp and several knockbacks/knockdowns to avoid skillseeker spam.

The same things were being said during beta weekends about the Warrior’s frenzied bull-rush hundred blades, and now that people are learning to dodge back and watch them swing at nothing, it’s not so bad.

It all depends on your build, really, which is what’s so great about this game. YOU decide what kind of player you are, and that determines what you are strong/weak against.

That said… the Moa Morph lasts way too long.

aydenunited.5729:

The same things were being said during beta weekends about the Warrior’s frenzied bull-rush hundred blades, and now that people are learning to dodge back and watch them swing at nothing, it’s not so bad.

It all depends on your build, really, which is what’s so great about this game. YOU decide what kind of player you are, and that determines what you are strong/weak against.

That said… the Moa Morph lasts way too long.

Bulls charge, frenzy, hundred blades is MUCH easier and simpler to deal with than a thief with evades on their abilitys and a stealth built in.. You can’t even compare the two man.

Thedenofsin.7340:

I think Moa Morph is overpowered in its current form. It needs to have a shorter duration. Their illusions generally are useless. I just place a mark on the real mesmer and never have to worry about getting faked out. The only illusion that’s trouble is the pistol one – but he dies in a couple of hits, or just toss up a reflect wall and it kills itself.
Basically, you have to kill the pistol illusion, ignore the rest and dps down the mesmer and he’s toast, or he’ll run away.
With thieves you need to have a lot of hp and several knockbacks/knockdowns to avoid skillseeker spam.

Heartseeker has a built in evade, how do you expect to knockdown during it or when you are immobilized?

i have played around 600 games in total with all classes but ranger… and i can say thief and mesmer are fine. Maby i would change the range in HS or make it cost more initiative and change how moa works… guardians got their elites nerfed, but why leave moa like this?

BlackDeath.7834:

The “Moa Morph” Elite is far too powerful, It’s basically a 10 second stun. Sure you can move, but very slowly and you do no damage at all.

Moa Morph’s duration is overpowered. It has an immense strength in being able to nullify a good number of other player’s elites, and a reduction in it’s CC would be appropriate.

BlackDeath.7834:

Downed state on Mesmers is more annoying than thieves, they make a copy of themselves on the ground similar to a thief teleporting around with stealth making you waste much more time trying to down them.

The Mesmer downed state is simple to deal with. When they disappear, wait for a second until they reappear (you can tell where the real Mesmer is by looking for the one with the red arrow above it’s head, and additionally, the clone always appears first). Being unable to insta-stomp them like say, an Elementalist, does not make the ability overpowered.

Piree.6125:

Seeing you wrote that mesmer have 5+ clones up at same time just stops me taking you serious.
….

Same. I always try to read post as objectively as possible but when I see people talking about professions being op and not even knowing the basic of it, it makes me sick. Because some people actually play that profession as their main one. Play mesmer for a few hours and tell me how you did. I bet you will do horribly. But guess what. After that period of time you will be able to do fine against mesmer cause you will know their mechanic.

Right now you don’t, that’s why you loose against them.

Oh and thieves are op, 12k backstabs, 12k Heartseeker, 11k pistol whip, all 1 hit. It’s too much.

Moa is fine, just don’t be stupid and try to use skills…. all of moa skills are channeled which make you more vulnerable. If you are moaed, just run and hide, it’s only 10 sec. and you will see it isn’t op at all. You can even dodge while in moa, didn’t you know ?
Also it’s 3 minutes cooldown.

Thieves are crazy OP. No melee class with that amount of burst should have such survivability and endless gap closers. Not to mention how super easy they are to play compared to every other class. They completely ruin the game.

And judging by the overpopulated amounts of thieves currently out there, I’d say most people are starting to use the “if you can’t beat em, join em” mentality.

Thiefs are mostly glasscannons, which are easy to counter if you evade the right attacks. I dont think Thieves are overpowered, as they are very limited in their options to approach fights.

To discuss Mesmers i think we need a bit more time to actually understand each other’s skillsets. I currently tend to say that the Mesmers is a bit to strong.

The Trebuchet teleport Mechanic, however, is completely broken. You should at least be able to stop the enemy team from repairing.

Short answer: Yes
Long answer: Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees

They’re counterable, and beatable, but they are too powerful.

BlackDeath.7834:

aydenunited.5729:

The same things were being said during beta weekends about the Warrior’s frenzied bull-rush hundred blades, and now that people are learning to dodge back and watch them swing at nothing, it’s not so bad.

It all depends on your build, really, which is what’s so great about this game. YOU decide what kind of player you are, and that determines what you are strong/weak against.

That said… the Moa Morph lasts way too long.

Bulls charge, frenzy, hundred blades is MUCH easier and simpler to deal with than a thief with evades on their abilitys and a stealth built in.. You can’t even compare the two man.

Sure you can. Thieves have no armor, warriors do. Better armor = less evasion options. Better evasion = less armor. Apples to apples.

Braize.4560:

And judging by the overpopulated amounts of thieves currently out there, I’d say most people are starting to use the “if you can’t beat em, join em” mentality.

I certainly jumped on the faceroll train. It is fun and easy to say the least. Certainly needs toning since all you need to do is spam one ability and be just as effective, if not more so, then other classes when played properly. Even if you just get someone to half hp before initiative is depleted, then your job is done in a team fight. Stealth, run or whatever and wait for initiative to spam a sucker again.

Thieves have far too many easy counters and enough poor “match ups” that while they might need some adjustment, I don’t know how much.

This partially applies to Mesmers too. Most people who think they are OP tend to be the people who have trouble just keeping track of their target. Moa’s a bit of an “I Win” button though.

So, in all…I’m not sure. There’s definitely room for adjustment but there’s more than enough ways to counter certain enemies either through tactics or group comp that I’d be wary of leaping too quickly to make massive changes. Increments, to find the balance between too effective and underwhelming. And that will take some time and thought.

I find mesmers and thief’s very annoying as a ranger but mainly because heartseeker is an amazing gap closer and most of rangers CC is a cripple which is completely negated when they leap 10ft forwards. And they have really good immobilise with poison which is hard to deal with because rangers have 1 condition removal on a 48 second CD when traited.

And with 2-4 stacks of confusion on me with short bow i could down myself from full hp in a few seconds if i didn’t stop attacking. Not attacking is hard when illusions are hitting me for 5k each though.

Also every Spvp i get into has 4 thiefs a side ive seen more and sometimes i see less.

Says Thiefs and Mesmers are OP, but doesn’t say anything about bunker Guardians.

Pretty much invalidates the whole thing.

Awake.6017:

Says Thiefs and Mesmers are OP, but doesn’t say anything about bunker Guardians.

Pretty much invalidates the whole thing.

I dont have much problem with killing guardians apart from retaliation ones, if i die to them its usually 50% of my health taken by retaliation back to myself. i do agree though they could use a defensive tone down.

With regards to the mesmer.

Make it so mesmers have to actually invest points into say phantasms, supporting, power/damage output to focus on 1 single role instead of being able to play 3+ roles in one build.

We do. Phantasm IS power/precision, since phantasms scale specifically off that. So you’ve listed 2 possible builds not 3 for a start. There is no mesmer raw damage build which ISN’T based on phantasms.

You don’t play 4 roles at once you play a damage orientated build with some defences and a focus on phantasms, any other build is equally pigeon holed. The big difference is that we don’t build 100% glass cannon because there just isn’t a viable build for it, that and any offensive build we have runs a lot of defensive utilities.

Moa is stupidly powerful, I’m not guna argue that. I’d say that realistically it need to have a shorter duration and a shorter cooldown since at the moment its a pretty hefty cooldown but a massive duration.

The mesmer downed state is also amazingly powerful, if people know how it works then its note quite so ridiculous but against those who don’t you can literally kill them from downed. Personally I can’t help feeling most other classes should have their downed state buffed (except warriors) since watching a ranger or engineer who has been downed is a sad joke.

Basically you seemingly know nothing about the mesmer class. At least when I say warriors with 0 skill win by pushing HB anybody can see this because the moment you dodge the HB they seem to womble about wondering what just happened and why the didn’t get 4 kills.

EDIT:

I find mesmers and thief’s very annoying as a ranger

Ranger’s are pretty much the only UP class atm. The other classes are arranged in a relative teir list but are all viable, the ranger is average even in the hand’s of an amazing player.

And with 2-4 stacks of confusion on me with short bow i could down myself from full hp in a few seconds if i didn’t stop attacking. Not attacking is hard when illusions are hitting me for 5k each though.

One part of this statement is null. If you have 2-4 stacks of confusion and they are killing you then the mesmer isn’t stacked full power so his phantasms hit for nothing. If his phantasms hit for 5k then his confusion is doing no damage. I suspect what is happening is that you are seeing yourself seemingly die for no reason and seeing only a few stacks of confusion, when actually your shooting into a feedback and gibbing yourself, I dropped one on a pistol rogue today and he 100% himself in 3seconds, I literately did not hit him.

EDIT2:

Maby i would change the range in HS or make it cost more initiative and change how moa works… guardians got their elites nerfed, but why leave moa like this?

Drop it’s CD to 90-120 seconds and reduce the duration to 5 seconds, it does have a reasonably long cast time relatively.

You are probably right about the phantasm part malakree, it was a swordsman that was hitting me that hard , might have been something else in the group throwing confusion on me too. If they buffed rangers greatsword damage a bit i think i would be on par with mesmers because shortbow is really bad at hitting people when they stealth because it starts shooting at the floor or over their head, and greatsword cleave would be nice to hit them while invisible or cleave down images.

Thieves hard counter is retaliation for the heartseeker & pistol whip builds. Mesmers also have issues with steady AOE that wipes out clones. Almost all Mesmer builds do a lot less damage without illusions or they rely on stacking confusion on you. People make OP builds, other people counter them and so forth, it’s just the nature of the game. My current Guardian bunker build has been specifically made to deal with thieves & I just sit & watch them explode against me with the sheer amount of retaliation I can pop.

might have been something else in the group throwing confusion on me too.

Ok 5k swordsman crit is something I struggle to get even in a full phantasm power/precision build. I use the duelist since it does more damage and I prefer trick shot to the block.

Hearing that my instant feeling is that the confusion is from an ethereal combo field (only mesmer 3 on sceptre applies confusion and its specifically 5 stacks). This also instantly leads me to suspect that it was feedback as this provides said field.

Feedback is a mesmer utility which places a dome over the target, this dome reflects any projectiles which cross its borders back at their target. Thus if your running a power based build and you keep shooting into it then you kill yourself, may have looked like confusion.

There are some mesmers that run the sceptre but they are almost universally condition damage mesmers and their phantasms won’t get near 5k damage. 1-2k with full crits at most.

I wish i had a screenshot but i took about 11k dmg from 2 swordsman hits, i was pretty shocked myself tbh when it happened.

Spyly.5749:

Bah.. Did you consider the Guardian? Almost impossible for a thief alone to bring down a ‘’never-ending self healing machine’’ .
Thus the engineer? An engineer only needs to lay some mines and 2 turrets to evaporate some of the Mesmer’s illusions.
I believe the system is balanced and people should test different ways, weapons, tactics in game which suits each situation.

I agree, people also need to learn about how to deal with the “overpoweredness” of these classes, quickly killing illusions leaves the Mesmer almost defenseless, throwing some continuous CC on a thief will stop it dead. (as with probably all other classes)

Yes, some classes can’t fight each other. It really comes down to builds and playing your classes so that you are overpowered.

I wish i had a screenshot but i took about 11k dmg from 2 swordsman hits, i was pretty shocked myself tbh when it happened.

Not saying it doesn’t happen only that it’s hard to make happen. The mesmer was properly running a full glass cannon build, which even I stay away from, and your a low toughness/armor trait build. My average swordsman crit is around 4k, only time it goes higher is on a death or glory thief.

My build has pretty high toughness and 19k hp got 20 points put into it and 20 into power. he must have just been glass cannon. When i got to the point to start fighting with the group he already had two swordsmen up.

mickers.2715:

My build has pretty high toughness and 19k hp got 20 points put into it and 20 into power. he must have just been glass cannon. When i got to the point to start fighting with the group he already had two swordsmen up.

Wait……what? Sorry I’m guna call bull. Swordsman has a 12second CD while traited, so unless youkitten about hanging around the outside of the fight doing nothing for 12seconds he couldn’t have had 2 up. Also if you have high toughness it’s not criting for 5k, duelist yes swordsman no.

Thief and Mesmer are currently too powerful when compared the other classes.

Thief is by far the biggest dps payout with the smallest amount of keys. It is hard for me to pull off that kinda burst (in melee) with any other class and some of their highest damage openers come from stealth. Their two primary damage combos require a stun break and a quick roll or you are nearly (if not) dead.

Thief and Mesmer are currently too powerful when compared the other classes.

Would say, moa needs changing, reduced duration reduced CD. Some other classes need their downed state bringing up to par, probably should have the mesmer basic attack while downed moved to the sceptre and a new one made for the downed. other than that I think they are reasonably close to a lot of other classes. (Not the ranger, ranger is bad).

Engineer, here. Mesmers are annoying… that’s what makes them mesmers. Thiefs are bursty and stealthy… That’s what makes them thiefs. /thread? I don’t think that any of these are significantly overpowered in any way. Also, as others have pointed out, you clearly don’t even know how mesmers work.

Irascible.8210:

Engineer, here. Mesmers are annoying… that’s what makes them mesmers. Thiefs are bursty and stealthy… That’s what makes them thiefs. /thread? I don’t think that any of these are significantly overpowered in any way. Also, as others have pointed out, you clearly don’t even know how mesmers work.

Your one of those kittens who always knows which one is real when I get downed aren’t you…..sad that so few of us can tell.

I think think thiefs get to make mistakes too often without it killing them.

Oh that guy dodged my pistol whip ability never mind it makes me evade all attacks while casting it. oh no i got bursted down because i spammed heart strike from too far away, no problem i go invisible when i reach 25% hp.

Every other attack of the thief just seems to make them evade or become immune to some form of damage.

If im fighting a team that has more than one thief im pretty dead, remove one immobilise with signet every 50 seconds but the cooldown for immobilise is much less, so if one immobilises me and i get out the other one does the same and i die instantly.

Maybe if players can stop their urge to solo 1v1 of either Thief/Mesmer this topic would not exist. They are independently strong like most classes build around DPS for quick secure on kills. But they are top priority to get focused on in team fights 75%+ of times I have experienced because they can take down important units quick and vice versa. So if you fight in a team, Mesmer/Thieves are already nerfed in my opinion.

In tourney PvP you don’t have enough players to not have a solo player.

FuzzyRamen.4902:

Maybe if players can stop their urge to solo 1v1 of either Thief/Mesmer this topic would not exist. They are independently strong like most classes build around DPS for quick secure on kills. But they are top priority to get focused on in team fights 75%+ of times I have experienced because they can take down important units quick and vice versa. So if you fight in a team, Mesmer/Thieves are already nerfed in my opinion.

It doesn’t really say much for the class balance if you HAVE to make them your focus, atleast they can stealth back behind their group if they are focused.

Thiefs are major problem with PvP right now, I hate calling for nerfs in mmos, but im not sure what else Anet can do. Its just pointless in sPVP now with so many thiefs. Id rather they just buffed everyone else tbh, noone likes nerfs it ruins PvE fun.

What part of thieves need nerfing? The damage? Might as well change the profession name to “Kitten.” As a side note I can’t even touch proper guardians or mesmers in tpvp.

I agree. They are easy to use and deal WAY too much damage in a super short amount of time. And worst of all, all they have to do is spam a couple of skills and kills easily come. And on top of that, they have extremely effective escape skills. Combining all these, you got two op professions in PvP. Sure, they can be countered, but the same can be said about EVERY SINGLE CLASS. So yeah, please nerf them.

You do know the mesmer takes the most time to master right? If you don’t know how to use them you will die very quickly.

honestly i just think ele’s and engi’s are under powered and need to be buffed. im a thief and both of those classes are just too easy to kill it doesn’t feel fair.

i rolled a mesmer, lvld to two, went to the dummies, looked at each attack, and then went and SPvP’d. The class is inherently stronger than many other classes for very little skill.