Guild Wars 2

Burr i would like to duel you. I will get on my ranger and duel you i really want to see this. Add me in game Dame Jill the Xlll or Xll i dont remember (those are “L”)

Derps.7421:

Burr i would like to duel you. I will get on my ranger and duel you i really want to see this. Add me in game Dame Jill the Xlll or Xll i dont remember (those are “L”)

I don’t mind, but I’m currently working a midnight, going home to sleep, then waking up and working again so I won’t be on till later tonight…if I’m not too tied. My Warrior is Burr Chillthorn.

Honestly I’d suggest asking Defektive considering I’m sure he’s a much stronger opponent than I’ll be in my tired state.

I think this is a very accurate representation of the current meta. Very nice Kavia.

Yeah War does beat SR at the moment. But the SR is a bunker type spec and can usually hold out for a good minute or two. I’d also say that M/Sh-GS is correctly placed at failing to thief and mes only due to that fact that it is placing it’s damage potential all on 100b-whirl burst which is easily avoided in many cases by those classes. However, LB-S/S can beat both shatter mes and thief because of the heavy attrition.

Warrior is a hard counter to spirit rangers, its game mechanics spirit rangers dont have the CC or the stun breaks to handle the matchup.

Warrior can counter necros and engineers in 1v1, match favors the war but any slip ups its can go the other way. It can also be the most lopsided win for a war, necro or engineer no matter how good they are get in the warriors combo without a stun break its over. I have learned to fear good warriors on my necro and eng when I used to think they were jokes.

I would go with the Engineer as a slight edge over a necro at the very least an even matchup but guess Im the only one that thinks so.

It’s only anecdotal, but I agree with the chart almost 100%. Some of the ‘even’ matchups might slightly favour one or the other, but not enough to call it a real advantage. I think spirit ranger vs necro slightly favours the necro but is pretty even, otherwise I agree with it as it stands.

That said, I haven’t seen (or played) a few of the matchups there in the last month or so, like ele vs mesmer for example.

Great post. I would make a few changes though.

-spirit rangers over ele
-condi necro over evade thief
-burst ele even with evade thief
-shatter mesmer even with evade thief
-evade thief over bunker guard
-engi over bunker guard

I concur with the above, apart from shatter mesmers being equal to evade thieves.
S/D is partialy the reason we don’t see mesmers around.

Defektive.7283:

Standard GS Mace Shield is 0/10/30/0/30 or 0/20/20/0/30

I also don’t agree with a number of the matchups for Warriors.

Warriors were definitely the most difficult to call correctly because there just aren’t enough of them in high level games to make accurate calls on. Most of my assumptions about warrior come from watching Helseth’s stream where he takes Furious in order to maximize the number of opportunities he has for a skull crack-hundred blades combo. By the time the cooldown is done he almost always has enough adrenaline for another full one..

I would welcome more footage of high ranked warriors playing – including yourself, Defektive, in order to better call the matchups. Feel free to tell me where I have it wrong. Spirit ranger vs warrior is getting a lot of debate at the moment!

Does building 0/20/20/0/30 change some of the matchups? I would love your input.

Reikou.7068:

Hey Kavia, great post. About time we had a decent matchup thread to see where classes actually stand tier-wise.

I would just like to ask though, what sort of situation are we looking at? In an open field/free to kite or run around wherever and discussing just combat? Or attempting to capture a node, and where node capture means advantage?

If it is not free roaming/combat-focused tier list, but instead a hold-a-node style tier-list, I personally think that the Bunker Guardian holds a disadvantage vs Evade Thief, Spirit Ranger, and Kit Engineer.

In my hypothetical scenario, you would have two players fighting over a point and trying to take it either though forcing the opponent off of the point or killing them. Simply holding a neut but not being able to kill or take the node in <60 seconds is still stalemate. If the player could walk up on a node capped for the opponent, knock them off and keep them off enough to cap it in <60 seconds, that would probably be advantage to the assaulting profession. I believe that scenario is extremely rare at the moment. Most of the debunkering scenarios of a bomb/flamethrower engi best suited for that task are stalemate because while he may get a neut, he’s probalby not gunna cap the node or kill the opposing bunker in <60 seconds.

Bunker guard is extremely durable in a 1v1 scenario when they have their cooldowns available, so all their matchups end up stalemate except for classes with extremely high damage pressure and boon removal.

Evade thief’s pressure is probably not sufficient to efficiently debunk a guard. I’ve watched some duels from Jumper v Acandis even when Larcenous Strike was more powerful – it still took Jumper quite a long time to kill him, probably >60 seconds.

Similar scenario for guard v engi and guard v spirit ranger.

Engi may be able to force a neut on the guard but is not going to kill him in <60 seconds unless the guard screws up. Maybe in a different meta where the engi is HgH he would be able to kill the guard, but if the guard brings sanctuary, wall of reflection, OR shield of the avenger as he might if HgH was popular, the fight is stalemate again.

Guard vs ranger I don’t believe the ranger has enough diversity of condi to prevent easy cleanses from the guard, and has no means of boon removal. I don’t think you can call that match anything but a stalemate (gunna be a long fight!).

Mammoth.1975:

It’s only anecdotal, but I agree with the chart almost 100%. Some of the ‘even’ matchups might slightly favour one or the other, but not enough to call it a real advantage. I think spirit ranger vs necro slightly favours the necro but is pretty even, otherwise I agree with it as it stands.

That said, I haven’t seen (or played) a few of the matchups there in the last month or so, like ele vs mesmer for example.

So do you think spirit ranger v necro should be stalemate (currently advantage necro)? I certainly do not think the necro is in danger of losing outright to the spirit ranger given the necro’s propper condi management, at least not in under 60 seconds. If the fight goes the necro’s way it will be over quick, if it goes the ranger’s way it will probably drag on for a long time.

in general, if i can spike with storm spirit and wolf knockdown, the necro is toast. but if the necro starts the fight getting me low from afar while approaching a point, im doomed

Batmang.5421:

Great post. I would make a few changes though.

-spirit rangers over ele
-condi necro over evade thief
-burst ele even with evade thief
-shatter mesmer even with evade thief
-evade thief over bunker guard
-engi over bunker guard

Thanks for the feedback, Blinx! It is great to hear from players at your level in this thread.

-spirit rangers over ele
→ I will probably change this

-condi necro over evade thief
→ some are arguing for opposite result. I think it probably depends on if the thief is able to evade the proper things, so I’m inclined to keep it as a fairly close match

-burst ele even with evade thief
→ I will probably change this

-shatter mesmer even with evade thief
→ I’ve never been able to beat a good one! Also most footage I’ve seen also argues for advantage thief (there is a good jumper v xeph series on jumper’s channel http://www.twitch.tv/loljumper/c/2259958 a bit dated now but I don’t think higher initiative on larcenous changes this matchup much. Shatter mes is surprisingly reliant on their boons i.e. vigor, might).

-evade thief over bunker guard
-engi over bunker guard
→ see my thoughts on both these matchups above in my response to Reikou

Mesmer won’t win against a good thief because it’s a burst spec and thieves’ stealth/evasion is extremely strong against any burst build.

Prismatic understanding or phantasm mesmer is probably a much better match up but nobody uses those in spvp.

Kavia.8249:

Mammoth.1975:

It’s only anecdotal, but I agree with the chart almost 100%. Some of the ‘even’ matchups might slightly favour one or the other, but not enough to call it a real advantage. I think spirit ranger vs necro slightly favours the necro but is pretty even, otherwise I agree with it as it stands.

That said, I haven’t seen (or played) a few of the matchups there in the last month or so, like ele vs mesmer for example.

So do you think spirit ranger v necro should be stalemate (currently advantage necro)? I certainly do not think the necro is in danger of losing outright to the spirit ranger given the necro’s propper condi management, at least not in under 60 seconds. If the fight goes the necro’s way it will be over quick, if it goes the ranger’s way it will probably drag on for a long time.

No, I think it is possible for spirit rangers to kill necros in <60s, especially if the fighting has to be done on and around a point. I think the necro has an advantage, just not a huge one. It could be that I’m overestimating myself/underestimating my opponents and am just being outplayed by the spirit rangers I face though

Mammoth.1975:

Kavia.8249:

Mammoth.1975:

It’s only anecdotal, but I agree with the chart almost 100%. Some of the ‘even’ matchups might slightly favour one or the other, but not enough to call it a real advantage. I think spirit ranger vs necro slightly favours the necro but is pretty even, otherwise I agree with it as it stands.

That said, I haven’t seen (or played) a few of the matchups there in the last month or so, like ele vs mesmer for example.

So do you think spirit ranger v necro should be stalemate (currently advantage necro)? I certainly do not think the necro is in danger of losing outright to the spirit ranger given the necro’s propper condi management, at least not in under 60 seconds. If the fight goes the necro’s way it will be over quick, if it goes the ranger’s way it will probably drag on for a long time.

No, I think it is possible for spirit rangers to kill necros in <60s, especially if the fighting has to be done on and around a point. I think the necro has an advantage, just not a huge one. It could be that I’m overestimating myself/underestimating my opponents and am just being outplayed by the spirit rangers I face though

Thanks for the feedback – Edge agrees with you as well so I may end up changing the ranger v necro to a two headed arrow. From the discussion it seems it depends on the rangers skill at evading the right stuff from the necro, which would put it in the even match category.

Also kavia pretty sure I agree with blinx in that spirit ranger crushes Ele. Nikkle has yet to beat me, same with Aiden

Having condi pressure to make you use cooldowns then spike your face is too much for ele’s, and part of the reason i switched to ranger in the first place

Spirit Ranger vs. Warrior is highly dependent on where the fight takes place and how much body blocking occurs.

Off node, Warrior has the advantage, on the node, the Spirit Ranger does. This obviously assumes a similar skill level. A single cripple or body blocked stun/cleanse or even how “old” the spirits are(as in how much time has passed after the summons at the time the fight begins) can decide this match up.

I would change the matchup to <> probably. Generally you can say that the longer the fight goes, the more it will be in favor of the Ranger. A Ranegr with an Elite at the beginning of the fight, should not lose, however.

Great discussion so far guys. OK these are the matchups I am currently thinking of changing. I will probably update the chart tomorrow AM after a bit more discussion. As long as the discussion keeps flowing I will keep updating. I can expand the chart with more matchups, too! If someone wants to come up with the matchups for say, a D/P thief, that would be sweet.

kit engi v. condi necro – change from even match to advantage necro
spirit rang vs stance war – change from advantage warrior to even match
spirit rang vs burst ele – change from stalemate to advantage ranger
burst ele vs evade thief – change from advantage thief to even match
spirit rang vs. condi necro – change from advantage necro to even match

Seems like I had a lot of incorrect matchups for the spirit ranger! Figures since I have never played one and they are a more recent addition to the meta. I would love to hear from some more expert rangers on these matchups and others!

Engi shouldn’t win against the condi necro
Engi vs shatter mesmer is equal I’d say. For sure if one shatter gets through the engi has problems, but played well and with use of terrain you should get to a 50% ratio against a shatter mesmer

Maybe thats just me, but I don’t think evade thieves have such a big advantage over stance/stunlock warriors. I main a s/d thief and from my experience and also from having seen other thieves fighting stance/stunlock warriors, I’d say the matchup is even- at best.

I’m playing 0 30 0 30 10 though, but I really don’t think Shortbow can pressure a good warrior as much as S/D can.

Engi should not beat necro, if the necro gets 1 fear off the fight is effectively over.

Kavia.8249:

In my hypothetical scenario, you would have two players fighting over a point and trying to take it either though forcing the opponent off of the point or killing them. Simply holding a neut but not being able to kill or take the node in <60 seconds is still stalemate. If the player could walk up on a node capped for the opponent, knock them off and keep them off enough to cap it in <60 seconds, that would probably be advantage to the assaulting profession. I believe that scenario is extremely rare at the moment. Most of the debunkering scenarios of a bomb/flamethrower engi best suited for that task are stalemate because while he may get a neut, he’s probalby not gunna cap the node or kill the opposing bunker in <60 seconds.

Bunker guard is extremely durable in a 1v1 scenario when they have their cooldowns available, so all their matchups end up stalemate except for classes with extremely high damage pressure and boon removal.

Evade thief’s pressure is probably not sufficient to efficiently debunk a guard. I’ve watched some duels from Jumper v Acandis even when Larcenous Strike was more powerful – it still took Jumper quite a long time to kill him, probably >60 seconds.

Similar scenario for guard v engi and guard v spirit ranger.

Engi may be able to force a neut on the guard but is not going to kill him in <60 seconds unless the guard screws up. Maybe in a different meta where the engi is HgH he would be able to kill the guard, but if the guard brings sanctuary, wall of reflection, OR shield of the avenger as he might if HgH was popular, the fight is stalemate again.

Guard vs ranger I don’t believe the ranger has enough diversity of condi to prevent easy cleanses from the guard, and has no means of boon removal. I don’t think you can call that match anything but a stalemate (gunna be a long fight!).

I see.

If the criteria to determine a stalemate is 60 seconds then I agree with most of your ratings.

Well it wouldn’t make sense for a stalemate to be considered past 60s mark.

In tpvp you either successfully manage to decap / cap within ~30 seconds, or you move away to not waste time and be more helpful in other parts of the map.

S/D with SB is not a 1on1 spec, it’s a mobile roamer for decaps / caps when there’s nobody on the node. You can’t do with S/D & SB what you can do with double S/D (jumper-x made a video about this btw, explaining why he went for SB version – he loses 1v1 capability but gains more for the team – aoe poison on deman, better roaming / faster access to specific nodes / positions etc).

Would love to see this expanded to having more specs. Like bunker ranger!

Shranks.3260:

Engi shouldn’t win against the condi necro
Engi vs shatter mesmer is equal I’d say. For sure if one shatter gets through the engi has problems, but played well and with use of terrain you should get to a 50% ratio against a shatter mesmer

Thanks for the feedback, Traq!

I think I agree – if the engi can manage to avoid a round of shatters, their condies should whittle down the mesmer given their lack of removal. I originally gave this to mesmer considering the typical kit engi’s lack of ways to avoid the shatter combo, but I guess they can use either rocket boots or elixir R to avoid the burst/reset the fight. On the other hand if the mesmer whittles down with greatsword from range and dodges poison volley, they should be able to force some cooldowns in order to get the mind wrack off. But like you say the engi should use terrain to their advantage in this scenario. It comes down to timing and reading your opponent making this an even match.

I have updated the chart with this and the other changes suggested. Current as of 8/12/13!

Malpractice.7850:

Would love to see this expanded to having more specs. Like bunker ranger!

Me too! If people want to propose a new meta build that has reasonable representation in competitive play that is totally cool. It would help a lot of you included weapons/traits/amulet and the proposed matchup results for the existing meta builds.

Some “not-quite-meta” builds I have been contemplating adding to the table
D/P Thief
BM Ranger
Symbol/meditation Guard
HGH Engi
Condi Warrior
Cantrip D/D Ele

I don’t agree with Condi Warrior. mainly because it hasn’t been proven to be even a viable concept in legitimate tPvP (YoloQ, Hotjoin != tPvP).

D/P should def be on the list, since the list of competitive thiefs playing S/D or D/P is about even at this point.

D/D Ele should def be on the list.

Symbol Guard is definitely picking up in some areas.

Haven’t seen a BM in a very long time (or HGH Engi).

Very nice post Kavia. Keep up the good work in the forums and in game. Cheers.

Defektive.7283:

I don’t agree with Condi Warrior. mainly because it hasn’t been proven to be even a viable concept in legitimate tPvP (YoloQ, Hotjoin != tPvP).

D/P should def be on the list, since the list of competitive thiefs playing S/D or D/P is about even at this point.

D/D Ele should def be on the list.

Symbol Guard is definitely picking up in some areas.

Haven’t seen a BM in a very long time (or HGH Engi).

/shrugs I think that SoloQ is going to be considered as “legitimate tPvP” very soon, if it isn’t already. Probably when queues are fully randomized.

I agree about D/P, don’t know why it isn’t there yet (probably because there only seems to be 1 build per prof).

Couldn’t burst ele and D/D ele both fall under the same category? I dunno, just “D/D Ele” seems a bit vague to me.

I’ve never even heard of a symbol guard, and honestly the idea sounds generally awful.

BM’s, but HGH Engis especially were probably killed by S/D thieves.

Arganthium.5638:

Defektive.7283:

I don’t agree with Condi Warrior. mainly because it hasn’t been proven to be even a viable concept in legitimate tPvP (YoloQ, Hotjoin != tPvP).

D/P should def be on the list, since the list of competitive thiefs playing S/D or D/P is about even at this point.

D/D Ele should def be on the list.

Symbol Guard is definitely picking up in some areas.

Haven’t seen a BM in a very long time (or HGH Engi).

/shrugs I think that SoloQ is going to be considered as “legitimate tPvP” very soon, if it isn’t already. Probably when queues are fully randomized.

I agree about D/P, don’t know why it isn’t there yet (probably because there only seems to be 1 build per prof).

Couldn’t burst ele and D/D ele both fall under the same category? I dunno, just “D/D Ele” seems a bit vague to me.

I’ve never even heard of a symbol guard, and honestly the idea sounds generally awful.

BM’s, but HGH Engis especially were probably killed by S/D thieves.

SoloQ is glorified hotjoins. It’s a good intermediate for when a team isn’t on.

Most of the best players Sync together, and with the player base being so niche it’s difficult to sit back and think that it’ll ever be properly randomized any time soon.

That being said, in the near to middle future we can’t depend on SoloQ to define what should be considered meta. Hell, I’ve had a number of games that are 4v5’s which just shows people aren’t 100% committed to the concept.

Arganthium.5638:

Couldn’t burst ele and D/D ele both fall under the same category? I dunno, just “D/D Ele” seems a bit vague to me.

While you can play S/D and D/D both as a burst spec with things like bolt to the heart and vital striking, I would argue the advantages of scepter mainhand for that purpose are considerable due to the much better air damage skills (instant cast). Especially since the buff to pheonix’s speed, you are seeing less and less damage oriented D/D eles.

D/D’s advantages rely on shocking aura, better mobility with burning speed and/or windborn dagger, etc. I think in the current meta if you’re going to play a D/D ele you’re probably doing it as a roaming support bunker with 3 cantrips, Powerful Aura, and clerics amulet. Some D/D diehards out there feel free to correct me!

Kavia.8249:

Arganthium.5638:

Couldn’t burst ele and D/D ele both fall under the same category? I dunno, just “D/D Ele” seems a bit vague to me.

While you can play S/D and D/D both as a burst spec with things like bolt to the heart and vital striking, I would argue the advantages of scepter mainhand for that purpose are considerable due to the much better air damage skills (instant cast). Especially since the buff to pheonix’s speed, you are seeing less and less damage oriented D/D eles.

D/D’s advantages rely on shocking aura, better mobility with burning speed and/or windborn dagger, etc. I think in the current meta if you’re going to play a D/D ele you’re probably doing it as a roaming support bunker with 3 cantrips, Powerful Aura, and clerics amulet. Some D/D diehards out there feel free to correct me!

Yeah, I figured that one of the main reasons for choosing S/D over D/D is the air insta-cast skills, especially Lightning Strike (which I just did the calculations for, and found that it actually does some really good damage for its cast time and recharge). Phoenix is also a fantastic burst skill.

I feel that D/D also has the advantage of PbAoE and perhaps just some more AoE in general, but I might be wrong on that one.

D/D has much better sustained damage than S/D if the opponent mitigates the S/D burst. An air rotation alone won’t outdo the pressure of a d/d ele.

Your only semi decent form of sustained damage on scepter is air auto.

DD also took the aoe burst and sustained prize, but that was overshadowed by the superior cleave damage of warrior and engineer/necro.

Additionally, s/d is prominent because so many of the dominant specs at the moment completely bypas the ele’s main defenses (boons), so scepter allows the ele better lasting power by allowing him to dish out his pressure from a better position where he can’t be shut down.

The DD ele gets fully stripped by the s/d thief, condis ignore protection and both the engineer and necro can cover well enough to have high condi uptime on a 15k hp pool that gets easily pressured into the defensive.

DD ele is still strong against anything else that isn’t a condi engineer/necro+s/d thief. Warrior is probably a hard counter as well since nobody can toe to toe a warrior. Warrior demolishes even bunkers with their extremely high base damage, so ele doesn’t really stand a chance and he doesn’t have the range flexibility to wear down the warrior from range before going for the spike.

Zenith.7301:

D/D has much better sustained damage than S/D if the opponent mitigates the S/D burst. An air rotation alone won’t outdo the pressure of a d/d ele.

Your only semi decent form of sustained damage on scepter is air auto.

DD also took the aoe burst and sustained prize, but that was overshadowed by the superior cleave damage of warrior and engineer/necro.

Additionally, s/d is prominent because so many of the dominant specs at the moment completely bypas the ele’s main defenses (boons), so scepter allows the ele better lasting power by allowing him to dish out his pressure from a better position where he can’t be shut down.

The DD ele gets fully stripped by the s/d thief, condis ignore protection and both the engineer and necro can cover well enough to have high condi uptime on a 15k hp pool that gets easily pressured into the defensive.

DD ele is still strong against anything else that isn’t a condi engineer/necro+s/d thief. Warrior is probably a hard counter as well since nobody can toe to toe a warrior. Warrior demolishes even bunkers with their extremely high base damage, so ele doesn’t really stand a chance and he doesn’t have the range flexibility to wear down the warrior from range before going for the spike.

I am starting to think you are one of those “zomfg wqrriqr with mace shield is totes op narf plzzzzzz.”

This topic is really making me miss the old guild wars 1 build database, with builds, guides, and team comps, with builds being voted into a meta category, explanations, and counters. It’s very reminiscent of that, and something that guild wars 2 has been missing (probably due to the lack of size of the community and lack of ability to reliably spectator matches for the common player).

This list is pretty cool. Good thing I don’t run Burst S/D elementalist. Means that I can beat all of those builds except Thief (boon rip), Mesmer (condition, burst is ok when not spamming stealth) and Ranger (spirit). And I can’t find any Guardians to 1v1 so they don’t exist.

Should include phantasm mesmers in this since they really rule in 1v1s.

bhagwad.4281:

Should include phantasm mesmers in this since they really rule in 1v1s.

Many classes beat phantasm mesmers now, particularly if the dueling rules do not allow kiting and using LOS. Good thieves win no matter what, especially s/p or backstab thieves, and many other classes win if the duel forces you to stay in a small area. Phantasm mesmers are one of the better 1on1 classes if free movement and use of the terrain is allowed, but still cannot beat top tier thieves.

Kavia.8249:

Ryan.9387:

Rangers should not lose to stance Warriors. The spirit actives play a key role in that match up but if you are aiming high level then Rangers should win.

Do you think the warrior could stalemate it 60+ seconds? My impression is that spirit rangers kill slowly, especially against a warrior with good cleanses (cleansing ire).

Stance warriors have no cleanses..

Chipster.6713:

Kavia.8249:

Ryan.9387:

Rangers should not lose to stance Warriors. The spirit actives play a key role in that match up but if you are aiming high level then Rangers should win.

Do you think the warrior could stalemate it 60+ seconds? My impression is that spirit rangers kill slowly, especially against a warrior with good cleanses (cleansing ire).

Stance warriors have no cleanses..

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Ire
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_Lyssa

^Berserker Stance plus the Rangers lack of stun breaks means that warrior will screw you UP

OK so thinking about D/P thief – probably 10/30/0/0/30 with dagger+pistol / shortbow, berserker’s amulet

Condi necro – advantage thief
Shatter Mesmer – even match
Bunker Guard – stalemate (maybe advantage thief? not sure if thief can kill fast enuf)
Spirit Ranger – even match
Stance Warrior – even match
Burst Ele – advantage thief
Kit Engi – advantage engi
Evade Thief – even match

This is just me brainstorming a first draft. Anybody have thoughts?

Kavia.8249:

OK so thinking about D/P thief – probably 10/30/0/0/30 with dagger+pistol / shortbow, berserker’s amulet

Condi necro – even match/advantage necro
Shatter Mesmer – even match
Bunker Guard – stalemate (maybe advantage thief? not sure if thief can kill fast enuf)
Spirit Ranger – even match/advantage ranger
Stance Warrior – even match
Burst Ele – advantage thief
Kit Engi – advantage engi
Evade Thief – advantage D/P thief

This is just me brainstorming a first draft. Anybody have thoughts?

Here are a few changes I’d make. 10/30/0/0/30 has some really poor condition removal with D/P, so I think that a Necro should have a good chance if not a winning chance against D/P.

Against Spirit Ranger, it’s really difficult for me to say, but I feel slightly more inclined to lean towards the Ranger because of the conditions and lack of good sustained AoE by the thief, even with a SB.

Against evade thief (in the current meta), D/P should win. D/P has the advantage of blinds and stealth, which, given that most S/D thieves run fairly glassy, means that there isn’t always a whole lot the S/D thief can do to avoid getting killed by the D/P thief eventually.

S/P thief not invited to this party? As far as I know there’s 3 melee sets you can get away with running as a thief.
Would think it makes sense to put all of what you’ll see.

ensoriki.5789:

S/P thief not invited to this party? As far as I know there’s 3 melee sets you can get away with running as a thief.
Would think it makes sense to put all of what you’ll see.

It’s really not meta though. I mean, I could introduce eles that run 4 different conjured weapons (which includes the elite of course), because a person might see that, but it’s unlikely that he/she will.

Let’s see…

0/20/0/20/30 S/D Valk/Zerk is the average SD ele spec – pretty good damage and good sustain, while 0/30/0/10/30 S/D Zerk/Zerk is your average SD ele burst spec.

DD eles can do quite well with valk/serk amulet, though DD eles in general are not part of the meta right now.

Arganthium.5638:

ensoriki.5789:

S/P thief not invited to this party? As far as I know there’s 3 melee sets you can get away with running as a thief.
Would think it makes sense to put all of what you’ll see.

It’s really not meta though. I mean, I could introduce eles that run 4 different conjured weapons (which includes the elite of course), because a person might see that, but it’s unlikely that he/she will.

That’s not even close to the same representation.

ensoriki.5789:

Arganthium.5638:

ensoriki.5789:

S/P thief not invited to this party? As far as I know there’s 3 melee sets you can get away with running as a thief.
Would think it makes sense to put all of what you’ll see.

It’s really not meta though. I mean, I could introduce eles that run 4 different conjured weapons (which includes the elite of course), because a person might see that, but it’s unlikely that he/she will.

That’s not even close to the same representation.

Yeah. Yeah it is. If S/P is meta, it’s meta because people suck.

Most every high ranking warrior I’ve run into on EU has been running the same weapon set I do, hammer/bow (Rom and Vuh are the two highest I know of, both running this build last time I saw them). Mace/shield is great and all, but it’s really more of a 1v1 spec, and can only really be used if people are out of position or as a far point attacker (and a team with voicecomms will very, very easily pull a HBing warrior off of someone in a teamfight).

Warrior should be about even with spirit ranger, maybe slight advantage spirit ranger if both sides start the fight with ideal CD’s. This is mainly due to a bug however, and once that bug is gone I think it will quickly switch to warrior advantage. A warrior has to make zero mistakes for this to work out though, if he gets blinded in during one stuncast he’s probably screwed.

Against an evade thief a warrior really has no way to win if the thief does not play like an idiot, this primarily being due to the no CD stunbreak.

Warriors will generally crush burst ele’s, while they have a multitude of stunbreaks they are all on fairly long CD’s, worst case scenario for the warrior is the ele getting away.

I think mesmer is highly dependent on if they’re running staff, if they’re running GS and team support utilities this will usually go to the warrior. If running a staff (can still be running team support utilities), mesmer. If running GS and stunbreak utilities it’s close, but probably mesmer.

Warrior will eat the faces of engi’s 9/10 times, and will most of the time be able to kill a necro.

I play mostly warrior, some ranger (rarely now that spirits are meta, worse than the BM of old this one is)… and some other classes, but not often enough anymore to be worth mentioning.

The real reason why thief wins against a warrior is not the lack of a CD stun break; using Shadow Return often is costly and wastes a lot of time that you could and should be spending attacking. The reason is that thieves steal some incredibly important boons off of warriors and can evade the major attacks.