Guild Wars 2

Is it me, or does the whole “meta” obsession really drag down the sPvP scene? I don’t mean just in the sense of the same cancer builds running around, but the fact that no one in this game save for the “top” PvPers tries to make any sort of reliable build, which then gets followed by the masses.

People think that going onto metabattle and revving up the latest meta build = ranked wins, when they don’t even know how to fight on points. PvP in this game relies so much more on your teammates when you only have a 5 man group, and it just shows when you are plowing through the opposite team, or when you’re getting plowed yourself. Coming from other MMO ranked PvP scenes, I was horrified when I saw that anyone and everyone hits the “ranked” queue button – people who run into zergs to die, chase someone off point while they get three capped…

It’s just amazing how the general PvP scene is not really there. Nothing is more fun than losing a match with someone who “doesn’t really like PvP XD!!!” How ANET thinks they can make this game an eSports game when you have zero gating to enter a ranked match is just hilarious. If you didn’t get in right when leagues dropped or run kitten build, you can only carry your team so much these days. Not going to bemoan the loss of pips as it’s been done to death, but there really needs to be some sort of gate for ranked. A real MMR system, some sort of progression through unranked, anything.

I don’t say all this as someone who thinks they are a pro PvP player. I’m just average, sometimes I make a game winning play, other times I am admittedly the moron who ran into mid solo into a 4 man meat grinder. That being said, I dont queue ranked on a character without being able to hold my own in almost any 1v1 and long enough for backup in a 2v1. I strive to be useful and understand what I’m doing before I subject others in ranked to my crap. I guess I assumed others who queued ranked also would have the same mindset and enjoyment of PvP, but over the weeks I’ve been depressingly wrong.

I don’t even know what this post is anymore. I think I wanted to rally against the “meta” and people who wont try anything outside of it, but I think it turned into a sobbing rant. I spent too much finger strength in it to delete it, so enjoy.

I’m against the meta simply because it kills diversity and excitement. Every time I say it, people complain twice as hard as I do that “they’re just using it because it’s better, why should they use what’s worse” but they obviously don’t understand what I’m saying.

I did enough PvP to get what I wanted out of it (rank 80 and some specific titles) and I used personalized non-meta builds through-out. I’m sure I dragged a few teams down by not being 100% optimal and that’s why I don’t do PvP anymore. Because I don’t want to be that selfish person. I also don’t want to be the only person who wants to try something different who then gets punished for it.

Unfortunately, metabattle is something a lot of people swear by. The lack of originality in all the meta human females with anime faces, underboob armor and hair with the flower in it are just another example of how little thought people are willing to put in to designing something that is personally their own.

I’m used to being one of the few, like yourself, who’s considered weird for not wanting to be another cookie cutter though. All the more satisfying when you crush someone who thinks just because they’re using a meta build they’re guaranteed a win.

I play strongly out of Meta and it works for me.
I also only play ranked with my ele which i can play to a formidable level.
When i try out new builds or latley warrior i go to unranked.
The less funny thing is people even rant in unranked how bad others are….

I say its a matchmakin issue. I don´t know how its realy works but doing something like pairing rank 4 with 1 is a bad idea. The 1 usualy gets slaughtered and the 4 starts a flamewar loosing due to the rank 1. In the end both are frustrated …

Im no fan of the current meta, but in my experience, most of the time the people complaining about “cookie cutter meta builds” and people being “unoriginal” are usually just people who dont know how to adapt and have been running their same theorycrafted build they always have and use the above criticism to avoid having to learn a new build and actually play what works rather then what looks or feels the coolest

Of course this isnt always true, but more often than not the people shouting “meta cheese” are just bad players who cant be bothered to learn a build that isnt what they first settled on

You have to consider the reason meta exist. Meta builds represent the most optimal configuration for a class given a certain context (usually in context of a team build in sPvP). It’s a numbers game but it’s also proven out by the community and meta rises up though the community.

If you care about utilizing your class to it’s fullest potential then you will go with meta build. There are those who scream “but a great meta build doesn’t make up for skill”. Sadly sometimes it does, but even if it doesn’t given two players of the identical skill. If one has a “most optimal” meta build and the other does not. That small variation will give the player running the meta the advantage.

Would you choose to play with a less than optimal build just to “have fun”? That’s the choice you have to make. However, It’s a choice you SHOULDN’T have to make

In a perfect world all things would be balanced and certain builds wouldn’t be so OP over other choices, we would have dozens of meta builds for sPvP. A small meta is indicitive of major balance problems.

The GW2 sPvP meta is now smaller than it ever has been and most of the builds in the meta are Codi heavy. As many have pointed out, the meta isn’t even fun.

When the fun is gone the game is destroyed. But if you’re thinking “all this is way too serious, I’m just going to run with whatever build I want in sPvP”. You’re in luck! ArenaNet doesn’t care either and has designed sPvP for those who don’t take it too seriously. That has become very clear by the choices they have made over the past three months regarding sPvP.

@Unfathomed.4268, people wont get out of the meta obsession due meta build in some classes are mandatory, if u play how u want is more like a expect to loose in every fight just because your toon inst using a optimized build.

There is a huge gap in most classes efetiveness using a meta and non meta build wich imo that is what should be adressed.

The problem with the current meta is that it has no counter… or takes more than one person to counter.
I’ve played some of the meta and they have mechanics that are game changers, this is the real issue.
Revs converting damage to heals, mesmer rolling back time, tempests being basically un-downable period, and scrappers… just an awful lot of invulnerable or invisible periods of time worse than the old mesmer was. MM Necro isnt in the meta though im not sure why, i see 2-3 of those in half my matches and thats an awful lot of i can do nothing and get both dps and heals gameplay. They snuck Druid up there in the last week though im not sure i agree with that. Sure a true heal can be problematic if you cant put out enough dps but, meh.
Bunker builds are just boring… it is what it is.

Floplag.4032:

The problem with the current meta is that it has no counter… or takes more than one person to counter.
I’ve played some of the meta and they have mechanics that are game changers, this is the real issue.
Revs converting damage to heals, mesmer rolling back time, tempests being basically un-downable period, and scrappers… just an awful lot of invulnerable or invisible periods of time worse than the old mesmer was. MM Necro isnt in the meta though im not sure why, i see 2-3 of those in half my matches and thats an awful lot of i can do nothing and get both dps and heals gameplay. They snuck Druid up there in the last week though im not sure i agree with that. Sure a true heal can be problematic if you cant put out enough dps but, meh.
Bunker builds are just boring… it is what it is.

None of those are issues, the beauty of having a game that gives us such flexibility in builds is that you can effectively counterbuild almost anything.

People keep assuming that “meta” is bad thing. It’s not, any game with asynchronous class design will have a meta. Meta is simply a word for the evolving state of play. Meta can change from one class to the next without the developers lifting a finger. We’ve seen this already with the rise and fall of the burst meta post HoT and the onset of the bunker meta.

MM Necro isnt in the meta though im not sure why, i see 2-3 of those in half my matches and thats an awful lot of i can do nothing and get both dps and heals gameplay.

Meta changes with skill level. MM necros and DH are actually meta in low to mid MMR ranges because both give large amounts of power for low amounts of skill. Once you get into the higher ranges of skill they become phased out by high skill/ high power builds.

Crinn.7864:

Floplag.4032:

The problem with the current meta is that it has no counter… or takes more than one person to counter.
I’ve played some of the meta and they have mechanics that are game changers, this is the real issue.
Revs converting damage to heals, mesmer rolling back time, tempests being basically un-downable period, and scrappers… just an awful lot of invulnerable or invisible periods of time worse than the old mesmer was. MM Necro isnt in the meta though im not sure why, i see 2-3 of those in half my matches and thats an awful lot of i can do nothing and get both dps and heals gameplay. They snuck Druid up there in the last week though im not sure i agree with that. Sure a true heal can be problematic if you cant put out enough dps but, meh.
Bunker builds are just boring… it is what it is.

None of those are issues, the beauty of having a game that gives us such flexibility in builds is that you can effectively counterbuild almost anything.

People keep assuming that “meta” is bad thing. It’s not, any game with asynchronous class design will have a meta. Meta is simply a word for the evolving state of play. Meta can change from one class to the next without the developers lifting a finger. We’ve seen this already with the rise and fall of the burst meta post HoT and the onset of the bunker meta.

MM Necro isnt in the meta though im not sure why, i see 2-3 of those in half my matches and thats an awful lot of i can do nothing and get both dps and heals gameplay.

Meta changes with skill level. MM necros and DH are actually meta in low to mid MMR ranges because both give large amounts of power for low amounts of skill. Once you get into the higher ranges of skill they become phased out by high skill/ high power builds.

I’m afraid i cant agree with your assertion that “meta” is an evolving state. Meta is what is the best at any given time, the names may change, the state of being the best or most effective does not.
Anything that doesnt have a natural counter, is a problem if you want balanced gameplay, and we all should cause without it skill really has no meaning if the class matters more.
While you are mostly correct about DH and Necro being stronger at lower MMR, I dont consider DH and MM Nec to be similar in the sense that a smart player can avoid DH traps or mitigate them, minions, not so much.

Crinn.7864, having no counter means no flexibility, every one is tied to that, also bunker meta is being used because gw2 is not needed much knowledge to kill a target inside a spectrum of classes, forcing almost every one to pick up classes with high surviability under certain stats whille also doing a good damage output that also mean less flexibility, with this 3 or 4 max amulets are being probably used across 8 classes and team composition is based on very very strong gimmick due class efectivess gap instead of team strategie and that also ends with team composition 5 being almost the same, that is also less flexibility.

The one thing that really bothers me is Guild Wars’ original mantra of being able to spec for any role regardless of profession. Diversity was one of their key aims and yet this is the one thing they failed on the most.

To be honest, I’d like to see the traits and gear removed from the game. It would be way easier to balance and at least you could get all of the professions in on the fun.

Floplag.4032:

I’m afraid i cant agree with your assertion that “meta” is an evolving state. Meta is what is the best at any given time, the names may change, the state of being the best or most effective does not.
Anything that doesnt have a natural counter, is a problem if you want balanced gameplay, and we all should cause without it skill really has no meaning if the class matters more.

But what makes a class best at a given time? Obviously anything with no counter will be meta, but a class can be meta while still having counters.
——-
Example, lets say you have classes A, B, C, D, and E. A counters B, B counters C, C counters D, D counters E, and E counters A.

Since E counters A, A cannot be meta while E is meta. Additionally B cannot be meta while A is meta.
However A and D can be meta at the same time, since A is indifferent to D and D keeps A’s counter out of the meta. meta is A, D
But A is also indifferent to C, and C counters D. Over the course of time C will replace D in the meta, leading to A and C being meta.
But if A and C are meta than nothing is stopping E, which leads to E replacing A in the meta, so the meta is now C, E.
Of course E is indifferent to B and A isn’t meta, so this paves the way for a E, B meta.

Now I’m not saying Anet executed on this perfectly, but this is the general principal the game is built on.
———-

While you are mostly correct about DH and Necro being stronger at lower MMR, I dont consider DH and MM Nec to be similar in the sense that a smart player can avoid DH traps or mitigate them, minions, not so much.

Minions have other ways of mitigation, mostly power cleave and mobility.

Crinn.7864:

Floplag.4032:

I’m afraid i cant agree with your assertion that “meta” is an evolving state. Meta is what is the best at any given time, the names may change, the state of being the best or most effective does not.
Anything that doesnt have a natural counter, is a problem if you want balanced gameplay, and we all should cause without it skill really has no meaning if the class matters more.

But what makes a class best at a given time? Obviously anything with no counter will be meta, but a class can be meta while still having counters.
——-
Example, lets say you have classes A, B, C, D, and E. A counters B, B counters C, C counters D, D counters E, and E counters A.

Since E counters A, A cannot be meta while E is meta. Additionally B cannot be meta while A is meta.
However A and D can be meta at the same time, since A is indifferent to D and D keeps A’s counter out of the meta. meta is A, D
But A is also indifferent to C, and C counters D. Over the course of time C will replace D in the meta, leading to A and C being meta.
But if A and C are meta than nothing is stopping E, which leads to E replacing A in the meta, so the meta is now C, E.
Of course E is indifferent to B and A isn’t meta, so this paves the way for a E, B meta.

Now I’m not saying Anet executed on this perfectly, but this is the general principal the game is built on.
———-

While you are mostly correct about DH and Necro being stronger at lower MMR, I dont consider DH and MM Nec to be similar in the sense that a smart player can avoid DH traps or mitigate them, minions, not so much.

Minions have other ways of mitigation, mostly power cleave and mobility.

i think you are splitting hairs now…
The current meta classes only counter is another meta.. even then its more of a white wash.
Mobility doesnt really help much if you have to run away from the objective to use it
Meh, whatever… i think those who play meta are spending an awful lot of time defending the meta, to each thier own i guess.

About the Meta… Some of the MetaBattle builds are horribly wrong, while others are spot on. Last time I checked, they still had the Druid build all messed up. That being said, it is a great place to go to get some ideas. None of the builds posted there are horribad, so it doesn’t hurt to try what they have listed.

Also, keep in mind meta != MetaBattle. Sometimes meta is derived from builds not posted there.

I never liked to be a part of the herd and follow the “meta”, always thereocrafting my own builds and for that I am even target of insults even before the game starts, just because ppl see I use different weapon sets or different utility than they used to see. Majority of the PvP community just goes the easy way and copy a build they see someone in ESL is using, but already not thinking about how the build fits to their playstyle, what role it plays in that certain match and how to use it for the team to be the most profitable. Blindly following somebody else’s build is also, besides others, reason why PvP is a bit boring and monotone.