Guild Wars 2

Minion Mancer is a rather strong build for hotjoin, solo queue, and deathmatch. It’s incredibly tanky, yet still manages to put out a large amount of damage, sustained and burst. It’s cheesy because it relies on the AI to do a lot of the work. ArenaNet attempted to make minor fixes to the build in the Ready Up balance notes by decreasing Training of the Master from 30-25%, however, I don’t think they are addressing the correct issue.

Putrid Explosion is a high damage, instant cast skill that goes well with Death Nova. Because of its high burst, I think it needs a better animation. After casting, the Bone Minions should swell up for 0.5 to 1 second, glowing green and growing larger. During this time the minions should still follow the target. This would allow enemies to avoid the burst.

Charge has the ability to down enemies in an instant. Combine this with random glitches in the terrain, and you have random occurrences deciding the outcomes of fights. I still think rewards for good awareness of your minions and positioning are a good idea, but I think it shouldn’t be quite so drastic. I think the proper solution is to reduce the damage from subsequent hits from charge attacks.

I find minion master to be a fun build to play, but I also acknowledge how anti-fun it is for people to play against. I think these two changes could make the build easier to face, but still fun to play.

Yep, nerf MM even more.

- MM getting nerfed already.
- MM has no team use.
- MM has no CC breaks (reliable other than sacrificing a high dps minion that had to be pre-summoned, in which case is usually a bigger net loss than gain.
- MM has no stability/protection/evades/blocks.
- Weak to AOE.
- Have virtually no AOE outside of explosion, and pets dying, which is a downhill battle anyways.
- Pets can be kited.
- Long cast times to re-summon pets (1.5 seconds, 6 seconds to summon all 4, 7.5 seconds if you run blood fiend, and without pets you’re essentially a traitless necromancer.)
- They’re kittened. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGci6ApoZ04
- They’re only good against bad players who stand still and take it, and they’re “good” 1v1 builds but not even the best.
- Useless outside of home-bunking/ Lulzerging
- You can see the pets spawned, they die in about nothing, they’ll be blockable soon and the “tell” is that they’re near you. They’re a dumb kitten AI, just move… They’re more predictable than a thief and Scepter ele is… by a LOT and they blow up for 2k damage, HO LAWDY.
- I’m also getting sick of “they’re soo afk”. What they lack in passive defenses like vigor/protection/stability/evades on basic abilities, they make up for in passive damage, get over it. Passives are like 60% of this game, sorry necros are original at ONE thing at the very least, which is where their passives come from.
- Moa kills them all.
- Warriors are good at EVERYTHING.
- I’m one of the few MM who ever made it to top 25 tPvP by only/maining MM to get there (maxed at #7, team #2).

You’re complaining about the wrong stuff. Nearly every top team has a thief, warrior, bunker guardian and spirit ranger. Go complain about the meta dominating builds.

Look at this guy defending MM Necromancer.

glaphen.5230:

Look at this guy defending MM Necromancer.

Read it and try to deny it. I can come up with a bullcrap reason why EVERY class is cheesy/OP, suck it up and be a man. Make a better build if yours gets beat.

ronpierce.2760:

glaphen.5230:

Look at this guy defending MM Necromancer.

Read it and try to deny it. I can come up with a bullcrap reason why EVERY class is cheesy/OP, suck it up and be a man. Make a better build if yours gets beat.

I beat bad ones all the time and ones that aren’t afk destroy you.

glaphen.5230:

ronpierce.2760:

glaphen.5230:

Look at this guy defending MM Necromancer.

Read it and try to deny it. I can come up with a bullcrap reason why EVERY class is cheesy/OP, suck it up and be a man. Make a better build if yours gets beat.

I beat bad ones all the time and ones that aren’t afk destroy you.

I’m the one that destroys people. Want to know why? Not because I’m an MM. Its because I played one before they were viable. I played one when I’d get laughed at in tournies and people got kittened I was an MM but I enjoyed it and dealt with it, and I’m not going to quit because people can’t get better at the game and learn why a class does well. Also, MM has just as many counters as any other class, and the higher in skill tier you go, the harder it is to maximize as an MM. It’s a rabbit killer.

Sure, I’d LOVE if pets did 50% less damage and power didn’t suck without LOADs of traits, and I didn’t need so many MM traits to even make it viable. Unfortunately, Anet cant fix the most basic of issues let alone make MM what it should be. So deal with it just like I deal with PW thieves and hambow warriors and every other stupid build.

Sikari, are my changes unreasonable? The two changes I suggested seem perfectly reasonable to me. High damage skills like Putrid Explosion should have telegraphs, just like every other similar skill in the game, and one shots from Flesh Golem are just dumb. That’s not to mention the fact that Minion Mancers actually AREN’T getting nerfed. They are losing the 5% damage from Training of the Master, but are gaining two minor traits due to two of the minion traits being combined. Most of your other points are flat out wrong, too.

-MM has team use as a homepoint defender and farpoint assaulter, but isn’t used as much due to its low mobility. Low mobility does not mean no team use.
-Lots of viable builds have no stun breaks, and this one is definitely a weakness to the build. It’s pretty much the biggest weakness.
-Lots of viable builds also don’t have protection, stability, or blocks, and if you use them right you don’t have trouble with lack of evades.
-Minions have high enough health that, if you play right, they don’t actually get AoEd down very quickly at all.
-Soooo… they have almost no AoE except for their really strong AoE?
-Most of your DPS comes from your minions anyway, so you actually aren’t giving up very much by casting minions while you fight.
-Minions are bugged, yes, but I expect ArenaNet to fix that AI eventually.
-If they’re only good against bad players, then explain how I can run it and beat players who are much better than me.
-Saying they’re bad because they’re useless outside of a role they can perform is silly. That’s like saying necromancers are bad because they can only spread conditions.
-So your strategy to fight Putrid Explosion is to random dodge? What the actual kitten. If you do that, a smart minion mancer is just going to wait until you’ve blown your dodges and THEN explode them. Saying it’s weak because you can random dodge is downright silly. Also, they do more than 2k damage when you factor in Death Nova, and you have 2 of them.
-People complain about most of the passives in the game, so pointing out other passives is a bad argument.
-Nobody uses Moa.
-Nobody disagrees that warriors are good at everything. That’s why they’re calling for nerfs. Another bad argument.
-I’m sure others could make it that high with only minion mancer if they didn’t kill themselves out of shame on their way up.
-We can ask for multiple changes at the same time.

- No team use as in it’s a poor team fighter, you don’t call an MM to middle to help with a mid-fight, that’s what I meant. Their mobility even makes them washy-home defenders because they are basically glued to home. If they try to wander and help mid at all, they can’t even keep up with enemies running to the spot they were defending. (This is a major reason they’re not common high end)
- These 2 combine, its the total lack of ANYTHING. A lot of builds lack SOME but not all of them. MM has NO vigor/protection/Stability/evades/blocks/mobility/CC breaker outside of one that harms the MM more for using it than not. Not many, if any builds can say THAT.
- False about the AOE. They’re stupid, you have to remember. They just clutter around the target so they AOE themselves, they kill your pets. They run to the stationary ones and aoe on them they’ve hit all of your pets with no issues, some SLIGHT foot work and you can also take minimal damage from them, unless the MM is very good at locking you down, but even that lasts for so long and assumes you don’t have stability at all or CC breaks.
- Putrid explosion isn’t a really strong aoe… It blows up a pet that normally would provide healing and stream dps to deal like 2k damage. Meteor Shower crits for like 3k for like 10 straight seconds in a bigger AOE… Don’t get me started on the power of other AoEs in this game. Putrid explosion is laughable because its so inconsistent anyways, that pet has to be on your kitten to work and has a 1.5 second cast time to summon. And like I said, you don’t chose where pets die. Death nova is extremely inconsistent and having it triggered means you’ve lost some pets. (Also sacrificing doesn’t trigger death novas damage, only the poison).
- “Most of my dps”, not really. Pets do about 50% of my damage, and I run soldiers amulet, and that was tested on a target standing perfectly still. Most time’s I have way more uptime than any of my pets with my dagger, one of the few melee weapons that don’t cleave.
- Bugs are bugs.
- They’re a good 1v1 class, no doubt, there are many others and for MM, that’s ALL they have going for them… And they’re still not even the best at that!
- They have fundamental issues, that’s all. They’re not the best in their class for 1v1, they suck in teams, wvw (except MAYBE solo roaming, but pets don’t scale with gear), and PvE they cause issues because people cheat pve and pets actually can mess up that process.
- Do you know how much this game is left up to random dodging? A 2k explosion is the LEAST of your worries… Like I said.. Go have a look at a pure condi necromancer, staff ele, nade engineer, or hell Longbow warrior. THOSE are aoes that need fixed…
- It’s not a bad argument. The point is it’s what keeps us floating, if you want us to lose our passive dps you need to start gutting the game of all the passive defenses. If you remove our passive damage and leave us as we are otherwise, we’re essentially useless while people can rely on passive defenses to keep them running.
- People do moa, and it’s frustrating when they do. That’s just a minor side-point though. A hardcounter like that is unmatched.
- YAY WARRIORZ.
- Apparently people aren’t worried about shame. The top team consists of a spirit ranger, a bunker guardian, spirit ranger and a warrior + ???. Shame’s no issue for people who play to win, not discuss pvp ethics.
- You sure can, but MM is the least of your worries. They’re already getting nerfed while warriors are still gods in ever mode. Leave us alone until the real top dogs get a looking-at…

I just had a tPvP, PUG against a premade 4 minionmancer team. We kicked the cat out of them.

@Sikari
I know you’ve played the build a lot., but you seem to have no concept of how to play around the AI. It’s something I’ve heard a lot of the better rangers talking about, playing around the AI of the pet, and I feel like the minions are very similar. There ARE things that you can do to influence where you want them to go. Acting like they’re stupid idiots who just wander around randomly is just false. Also, where did you get the information that Putrid Explosion doesn’t trigger Death Nova damage?

@Fluffball
I played against a team of 5 subpar thieves. We crushed them. Thief must not be viable.

I know my reply is anecdotal and someone would respond as such, but it just goes to prove MMs are nothing special. If they were super OP, a PUG would not beat a premade.

It just doesn’t. I play one…

And they are stupid. Rangers have a call-back, that’s how they can control their pets. MM pets ARE kittening stupid. They attack what you attack and chase them up terrain the long way every time and go back down ramps when people jump down them, and automatically attack anyone who hits them. They ARE that stupid. I’ve played it for over a YEAR. I think I’d know. Once they start fighting you’re not affecting their movements 1v1 except by controlling the enemy so that they can latch on. The only other way to manage their movement is to swap targets and make them attack someone else, and even then all that does is make them attack the other person, that’s not control… That’s the most basic of AI.

If necromancers had a call back for their pets, I’d be far more inclined to agree with you. it sounds more like you don’t have a basic concept of how LITTLE control we have.

You refuse to use the few gimmicky ways there are to control the minions. Although not optimal, they are usable. Refusing to use them doesn’t make not exist.

OlrunTheBlade.1486:

You refuse to use the few gimmicky ways there are to control the minions. Although not optimal, they are usable. Refusing to use them doesn’t make not exist.

Go onnnn?

The only thing that truly counters a minion master is moa form. Goodbye minions.

I had a match the other week in SQ, 2 minion masters, 2 mesmers, and a spirit ranger. You better believe I could not see what the crap was going on. Much AI, such PvE, many loot. Wow.

I was running around yelling “What dungeon am I in?” “QUICK GET YOUR CHAMP LOOT” “Where’s the champ train at?” “Farm these mobs before drop rates get nerfed!”

It was the most disgusting game of “player vs player” I’ve ever seen.

It was just AI aka PvE, not PvP.

Realist.5812:

The only thing that truly counters a minion master is moa form. Goodbye minions.

I had a match the other week in SQ, 2 minion masters, 2 mesmers, and a spirit ranger. You better believe I could not see what the crap was going on. Much AI, such PvE, many loot. Wow.

I was running around yelling “What dungeon am I in?” “QUICK GET YOUR CHAMP LOOT” “Where’s the champ train at?” “Farm these mobs before drop rates get nerfed!”

It was the most disgusting game of “player vs player” I’ve ever seen.

It was just AI aka PvE, not PvP.

So, not an inflammatory question, but do you think there is any skill in AI vs Player? Like I said my random PUG slaughtered the 4 MM premade we faced. Because everything we faced was AI.

I really don’t see an issue with MM’s unless you are fighting 1v1 vs a good MM. Ron is absolutely correct by saying that they are subpar in a team environment. No stability, no stun breaks, and no mobility. What they do have, if you go the soldiers variant, is ~28k health. Depending on the setup the MM can do decent damage on its own once the minions are down; however at that point the MM is at a severe disadvantage.

MM’s are nothing more than a home point bunker. Blitz them with a PW thief and anything else and they usually die. Heck a good PW thief alone will take out a MM.

@Realist – yes the AI clutter is an issue when stacked with other AI builds but this is what Anet has given us regrettably. Kill the AI first would be my suggestion – barring that simply out rotate the MM’s.

MM’s are truly not an issue unless you are forced to 1v1. And yes I play one occasionally.

I’m with Ron about MM. They do have their strong points, but they have some severe weaknesses as well (which Ron has mentioned). The main argument I’ve heard about MM’s is the AI clutter, which can be challenging. Fighting an MM is one of those times when you have to change your tactics and fight smart. One of the big things to remember is to keep mobile, use AoE if you have the build for it, and use CC’s on the Necromancer (which is a huge weakness for them).

MM’s are not the only ones with a lot of AI. It’s a matter of playing smart, and exploiting their weaknesses. I’ve played a lot of other classes, and must admit I smile whenever I see an MM, as they are fun to take out as they don’t know how to properly play the class (Ron, why have I never had the pleasure of doing battle with you!?). Those who play the MM relying upon the AI to do the bulk of the work greatly misuse the class, as it is more about learning to micromanage them for maximum effectiveness.

I’m sure Ron would agree, that at the high level of competition, there is a lot of skill involved with playing as an MM. The players at that level know how to keep moving, and will exploit your weaknesses as an MM. Mismanaging your minions will lead to your death.

As for the AI clutter, ANet has done a great job of enhancing the targeting system to place the player at a higher priority level. So it is easy to target them through the AI (unless you have a tendency to fudge your targeting). It’s ok if AI frustrates you—just stop, take a breath, and adjust your fighting tactics. I have actually laughed at players who charge in, and attempt to DPS me to death while standing in the midst of my minions. Believe it or not, but I have ran across a number of people who are very adept at tearing apart an MM. Before the HamBow meta was fixed, every warrior and his grandma was taking me out due to the high dps, CC, and damage mitigation.

One important thing to keep in mind about MM’s is this: their pathing and response is horrible. Putrid explosion is one of the few that will reliably activate when we push the button. Other minions may take a while to execute, or get stuck (I’m looking at you Flesh Golem). As much help as the Flesh golem charge can be, it also has as much a tendency to fail to work properly. With the previous living story patch, the minion AI was broken to the point where I could be in a fight for a good 20-30 seconds before they would finally join up. Imagine playing without your utilities (passive or not) for that length of time, and see some of the challenges an MM faces.

I’m not saying the MM isn’t a strong class, but it has some serious weaknesses that make it reasonable. I often play as a Thief, Mesmer, Engineer, and Guardian, and have no problems when it comes to the average MM player. Please, if you hear other MM’s pipe up to your response about our abilities, it is only to help you understand the other side of the story as well with our challenges. Otherwise, people only see things from one perspective.

Fluffball.8307:

So, not an inflammatory question, but do you think there is any skill in AI vs Player? Like I said my random PUG slaughtered the 4 MM premade we faced. Because everything we faced was AI.

I was mainly referring to the clutter and screen chaos that ensues in these types of situations. PvP should never suffer from screen clutter. Especially not with dozens of AI for a player to hide behind/inside.

I never said there is no skill in AI vs Player, as that isn’t the topic, or even relevant.

But I will state that a player allowed to use AI to play ON THEIR BEHALF, removes a lot of skill, essentially making their build void of any discernible skill. For reasons that have been brought up countless times on the forums. Having AI play FOR YOU is not measurable by any kind of personal skill involvement.

Not to mention the minion spam chews up the AoE cap instantly, which is ridiculously unfair for some classes or builds.

I am a relatively casual sPvP-er, only played a couple K games total, but from what I have experienced, I definitely agree with ron.

What the MM necro has in its list of strengths, has a weakness to counterbalance to it. It has passive offense? It does not have the passive defense of other classes. It has great 1 v 1 potential? It sucks in team fights. It does good single-target damage? It sucks in AoE capabilities.

While the build is definitely not bad, it certainly is not the overblown OP thing some people make it out to be.

It’s like there aren’t bunkers in spvp that often stay at home point alone, fighting far point pushers in 1v1 matches, just facerrolling… nah that never happens….. ever

Ugruk.4069:

It’s like there aren’t bunkers in spvp that often stay at home point alone, fighting far point pushers in 1v1 matches, just facerrolling… nah that never happens….. ever

Yes, the build is useful if you are in 1 v 1 encounters against far point pushers – as I said, it has strong and weak sides. One weak side being how quick it gets melted against two or more opponents, while a guardian, for example, can hold multiple enemies for longer, in exchange for not being that strong offensively. The build does not have to be useless in all aspects of PvP in order for it not to be considered “overpowered”.

The build IS overpowered, I was saying in my previous post that people were saying “oh its not OP because it is only strong in 1v1” implying there werent any of them in spvp.

And the build is overpowered in a sense that you dont need to time coodlowns worry about positioning or anything just push things out of cooldown and the pets do the rest….

As a fan of the necromancer class, I hope this spec gets taken apart and rebuilt

1. Running around with a horde of minions = more clutter than any other spec in the game. If you choose to be an Asura MM, there is no way a person is going to be able to see you in a 1v1

2. Am I supposed to be watching for Bone Minion Explosion, Bone Field Immobilize, Flesh Golem Rush, and Dark Pact all at once? Minion Necro puts the entire burden of counterplay on the opponent.

3. The basic gameplay of this spec is: Be absurdly tanky, land one of your many CC skills, watch your minions deal loads and loads of damage. I honestly prefer fighting warriors because I can at least see what they are doing most of the time.
———————-

The problem with Minion Necro is not that it is OP. It is that it is “anti-fun” to play against as Olrun mentioned.

I’m with Ronpierce since forever.

This idea of cheese because of AI has been developed by the most kitten people and now everyone marches with it as a standard. /greetings

Complaints about Death Nova and Putrid Explosion? Really? Isn’t enough knowing what Bone Minions do? You want Death Nova to proc lately so you can willingly destroy minions and avoid the payback, is that correct? Whitout considering that Death Nova Direct Damage isn’t proccing on Putrid Explosion willingly and clearly said by ANET.

Charge has the ability to down people by using random terrain glitches and that makes it op? Are you kidding, I hope. Terrain glitches are working more from your side than by the minion’s. The LESS EXPLOITABLE bug on this planet to declare our Elite Minion is OP?

Why don’t you talk about the terrible AI, the unrensponsive Minions which stands and look the fight without doing anything?
Ah yes, that unvalidates your point!

People, check what are you saying I’m reading so many randomly thrown things in this thread that makes me really wonder if the Minion’s intelligence is the worst….

I let my mother play with this spec in a solo q match. The only game she had played before was Super Mario Bros for my Game Boy, 15 years ago.
She won the match just by standing all the time at home point and didn’t get decapped once.

People seem to think that having the AI deal damage for you is somehow beneficial, you clearly haven’t seen how kitten this AI actually is.

^ Doesn’t matter.

As soon as you let someone, or something, play for you, you forfeit any and all personal skill, especially skill that the game would NORMALLY ask of you.

These builds aren’t skilful, nor are they fun to play with or against, spamming the screen with junk, and watching the junk smother your blinded enemy while you walk around in a circle eating with one hand, is not fun.

Minion builds also make the core game mechanic of dodging INVALID. Instead of watching and dodging skills from 1-2 players, you now have 6 things moving and attacking, which is next to impossible, you CANNOT see what is going on, and even if you dodge, you’re still being spammed at by 6 things, dodges are therefore invalidated.

Defenders can claim it isn’t op (with fluff to back it up of course), but the only person you are fooling is yourself. The rest of us know anyone who relies on others to fight their battles, is a joke.

Decap engi counters MM. Hard. MMs have no stability. What’s the point of having a close point bunker who can’t stay on point?

bhagwad.4281:

Decap engi counters MM. Hard. MMs have no stability. What’s the point of having a close point bunker who can’t stay on point?

Wow broken can fight broken, too bad minions can block Overcharged Shot and flesh wurm will teleport you back on. They also do only physical so they can hurt through Automated Response.

glaphen.5230:

bhagwad.4281:

Decap engi counters MM. Hard. MMs have no stability. What’s the point of having a close point bunker who can’t stay on point?

Wow broken can fight broken, too bad minions can block Overcharged Shot and flesh wurm will teleport you back on. They also do only physical so they can hurt through Automated Response.

Just one teleport back…nothing much to write home about. And with solid regen, protection uptime, constant knocking back and blinds and AoE explosions and 3 second blocks and perma cripple, and perma swiftness, no reasonably decent decap engi ever has to worry about a MM.

Realist.5812:

^ Doesn’t matter.

As soon as you let someone, or something, play for you, you forfeit any and all personal skill, especially skill that the game would NORMALLY ask of you.

These builds aren’t skilful, nor are they fun to play with or against, spamming the screen with junk, and watching the junk smother your blinded enemy while you walk around in a circle eating with one hand, is not fun.

Minion builds also make the core game mechanic of dodging INVALID. Instead of watching and dodging skills from 1-2 players, you now have 6 things moving and attacking, which is next to impossible, you CANNOT see what is going on, and even if you dodge, you’re still being spammed at by 6 things, dodges are therefore invalidated.

Defenders can claim it isn’t op (with fluff to back it up of course), but the only person you are fooling is yourself. The rest of us know anyone who relies on others to fight their battles, is a joke.

You realize boons “play” for you once casted as much as minions play for you once casted. Press a button and take 33% less damage, immune to CC, passive evade rate increase. And let alone all the 100% passive traits that increase defenses, like blinding people when you enter stealth, regen hp when hidden, evades just innately on attacks (Mesmer/thief/ranger).

Point is, this game is filled with “press it once and soak up the benefits”. In facts it’s like 80% this. At least you can kill/kite/aoe pets and the necromancers itself is entirely hindered in other ways for this benefit. I think you need to take a deeper look at the mechanics of the entire game and you’ll realize MM pets aren’t that farfetched. They’re kitable, killable dots, no more cheesy than lagging a Meteor storm critting for 3k aoe ticks every second that covers an entire point.

Just because it has a life bar attached to it doesn’t mean it’s magically something else. If anything that life bar attached to it makes it less cheesy than the other stuff in this game.

ronpierce.2760:

Realist.5812:

^ Doesn’t matter.

As soon as you let someone, or something, play for you, you forfeit any and all personal skill, especially skill that the game would NORMALLY ask of you.

These builds aren’t skilful, nor are they fun to play with or against, spamming the screen with junk, and watching the junk smother your blinded enemy while you walk around in a circle eating with one hand, is not fun.

Minion builds also make the core game mechanic of dodging INVALID. Instead of watching and dodging skills from 1-2 players, you now have 6 things moving and attacking, which is next to impossible, you CANNOT see what is going on, and even if you dodge, you’re still being spammed at by 6 things, dodges are therefore invalidated.

Defenders can claim it isn’t op (with fluff to back it up of course), but the only person you are fooling is yourself. The rest of us know anyone who relies on others to fight their battles, is a joke.

You realize boons “play” for you once casted as much as minions play for you once casted. Press a button and take 33% less damage, immune to CC, passive evade rate increase. And let alone all the 100% passive traits that increase defenses, like blinding people when you enter stealth, regen hp when hidden, evades just innately on attacks (Mesmer/thief/ranger).

Point is, this game is filled with “press it once and soak up the benefits”. In facts it’s like 80% this. At least you can kill/kite/aoe pets and the necromancers itself is entirely hindered in other ways for this benefit. I think you need to take a deeper look at the mechanics of the entire game and you’ll realize MM pets aren’t that farfetched. They’re kitable, killable dots, no more cheesy than lagging a Meteor storm critting for 3k aoe ticks every second that covers an entire point.

Just because it has a life bar attached to it doesn’t mean it’s magically something else. If anything that life bar attached to it makes it less cheesy than the other stuff in this game.

Bone Fiend 2600 7000
Bone Minion 2125 5000
Blood Fiend 2000 13000
Shadow Fiend 2125 10700
Flesh Wurm 2470 9000
Flesh Golem 2600 13000
Jagged Horror 2125 8700

They are tanky as hell and thats without the 50% hp trait. So many zerker staff Elementalists being ignored instead of charged by your golem.

Thumper Turret: 11950
Flame Turret: 8960
Rifle Turret: 7470
Net Turret: 7470
Rocket Turret: 7470
Healing Turret: 5980

That hp doesn’t mean anything. 10k hp is incredibly low when they don’t:
- Move out of aoe.
- Don’t evade when the master dodges.
- Doesn’t have a heal.
These are the reasons players survive damage, these HP pools are not even remotely related to a player’s HP pool in terms of tankiness.

Thieves Guild:8000 health) (105-126 DPS)
Thieves Guild:8000 health) (50% slower attack speed) (410-512 DPS)

WOW why does yours have double the damage, double the hp, lasts till death and have a shorter cooldown on death?

Notice how amazing turrets are? Also, they’re immune to conditions because they’re objects.

ronpierce.2760:

I like how you explained how what I said is stupid, smart one.

Pets:
You summon (long cast), they do damage (if they connect). They can be dispelled by their death, or ignored by fancy foot work and kiting.

Boons:
Press a button. They protect you in the background for a while. Take stability for example, it’s just a single button but has a prolonged benefit kind of like pets. The difference? One is secondary defenses versus secondary offenses.

Yeah, they can be related… Look at spirits for spirit rangers. They’re “AI” but they’re just buffs with an HP bar. People still kitten like they’re some sort of afk kings, they pressed a button, they summoned a buffer. The kitten is no different.

Passive Defense means a player can spend more time risklessly dpsing. Passive offense like phant mesmers/MM/ranger player pets allow some damage while spending time on focusing on their own survivability. And usually these builds have less buttons to survive with, so they have to weigh them out more than other builds.

Your refusal to see how they’re similar doesn’t make them not similar. A button with a prolonged affect with different types of counters and play styles, its all it is. That’s all any of this game is outside of direct damage.

Unfortunately you can’t have a game of 1000 direct damage skills and that’s it because that’d be boring as hell. Learn to play around different play styles?

If Minions and Spirits acted like boons did(active increases in damage, condi, or other effects) it wouldn’t be such a big deal, but both Minion masters and Spirit Rangers MAX THE AOE CAP, so those 2 other teammates on the point with the minion master? ya can’t hit them AT ALL. That little asuran necro hiding in his minions? Sorry my Backstab, Eviscerate, etc just hit his minion instead.

I say if both minion masters and spirit rangers are going to stay viable in sPvP melee cleave damage should hit EVERYTHING in range, and all AoE skills should have no AoE Cap. It would be too kitten the WvW servers, but with less than 25 players in a single sPvP map it shouldn’t be too bad right?

ronpierce.2760:

Notice how amazing turrets are? Also, they’re immune to conditions because they’re objects.

Now explain why every other summon that lasts on a timer isn’t even half as good as any of Necromancers.

Well, I’d be all for making AOEs smarter and preferring players before minions. why didn’t you just say that?

Asura are problematic for pvp no matter what class/build you run.

Body blocking, eh. That’s sort of part of their dynamic. A lot less frequent do things like eviscerate hit the pets over the master. A LARGE majority of the time that this happens, the leap ran out of distance and that swing just hit the closest thing to them, if pets weren’t out you’d have just hit nothing. Consider yourself lucky you got a free cleansing ire. With that many pets hitting you you’ll have max adrenaline again in about 3 seconds.

Don’t remove the AOE cap, just make them smarter.

If single target skills aren’t hitting your minions 100% of the time you are a bad Necromancer.

Um… Lol? or if you cant land hits on a target by kiting melee pets out of the battle for half a second and getting them on the outside then you’re a bad -> everything else.

Also, l2 cleave moar, that’s what wins anyways.

You have 2 minions that cripple on hit and they move fast. You also have 2 ranged minions that don’t move.

Good MM in tpvp aren’t running Blood fiend. If a MM can purposefully make you hit their bonefiend, good for them. Sounds like they’re being skillful, you know. The thing they’re supposedly not? Also, if you cripple pets they become neigh kittened. I’m speaking from experience. I was at one point before I quit conquest due to boredom, I was rank 7 tpvp, team #2. You don’t see many minion masters in top 25 pvp.

Guess what one of the largest issues were in high end tpvp? Good thieves… One of the classes with the most single-target hits. (Them and hambow but… That’s an entirely different issue.)

I didn’t even say blood fiend, I was talking about wurm and bone. Playing a build that takes a trickle of skill and being high rated doesn’t mean much.

Erm. People aren’t going to be standing on their flesh wurm… Defeats the purpose, and besides atm Shadow field > wurm.

Shadow fiend does less than wurm does.

Pathetic’O Meter exploded.

Ronpierce, please ignore em, just let them be, you can’t persuade this kind of people. Some kind of people need their free space to express their necessities. Better they vent here than IRL on some poor innocent.

glaphen.5230:

Shadow fiend does less than wurm does.

Shadow fiend attacks 2x faster, which gives 2x the vampiric master procs, more healing and competitive damage, but also you have a blind for stomps (end event his is hard to use because the terrible ai), but also every 20 seconds it gives 10% LF, it provides a decent amount of swarming pressure and protection. Sometimes on-demand LF is hard for a minion master to get and shadow fiend can often ensure you have enough life force for an important doom cast.

glaphen.5230:

Thumper Turret: 11950
Flame Turret: 8960
Rifle Turret: 7470
Net Turret: 7470
Rocket Turret: 7470
Healing Turret: 5980

That hp doesn’t mean anything. 10k hp is incredibly low when they don’t:
- Move out of aoe.
- Don’t evade when the master dodges.
- Doesn’t have a heal.
These are the reasons players survive damage, these HP pools are not even remotely related to a player’s HP pool in terms of tankiness.

Thieves Guild:8000 health) (105-126 DPS)
Thieves Guild:8000 health) (50% slower attack speed) (410-512 DPS)

WOW why does yours have double the damage, double the hp, lasts till death and have a shorter cooldown on death?

Turrets have high survivability.

• They can’t be crit.
• They have perma protection.
• They can’t get condi damage.
• They don’t move. So they don’t ball up for AoE. The correct way to place turrets is to spread them out.

Turrets are weak because Engineers lack utility. Necro have 3 skillbars, turret Engineer has 1.

Luke.4562:

Pathetic’O Meter exploded.

Ronpierce, please ignore em, just let them be, you can’t persuade this kind of people. Ignorants need their free space to express their necessities. Better they vent here than IRL on some poor innocent.

I respect your hopinion, but I’m not diffusing disinformation.

As I wrote an you confirmed, the Warrior can be countered just on his errors, and being so tanky and regenerating so much life is enough to counter whatever build which has medium to low single target damage. I’t hard to burst, hard to control, it has the total control of the fight, a large window in which he can do whatever he wants and set his attack plan, harass as much as he likes, having anyway a lot of damage from whatever weapon and gear he wears. The rest comes from his errors, if he pops badly his cooldowns, then the opponent has a chance to make it, but only if putting more focus and knowing better the situation. This is like holding the knife from the handle fro the 75% of the fight.
Ofc it requires a base of skill, but it’s level is so low that whoever can learn fast its easy combos and situation in which pop cooldowns and make a massacre as soon as he master it. Easy to master. It’s not something like Thief. Warrior’s errors are forgettable because of his innate tankyness and regeneration.

Another ridicle fact is that whatever weapon works ridicously well in whatever build.
Don’t negate that LongBow which is a condition weapon deal that much ridicle damages with a Berserker build and 0 condition damage.
The same for other weapons, Axe deal ridicle quantity of damage, Rifle deals ridicle quantity of damage, GS too, Sword, sword OH in a condition build deals so much damage it’s ridicle to see.

And even if the innate regeneration and Condi cleaner came late, Warriors have been ridiculous in pvp since the beginning, GS berserker build owning whatever class with the least effort for almost 5-6 months.. after a while the meta switched and people forget of it, claiming Warriors were underpowered and ridicle in pvp. This claim was ridicle too. And seeing so many people giving a +1 for this fact is again more ridicle.

The exact thing you were complaining about is the problem with MM Necromancers LOL?

runeblade.7514:

glaphen.5230:

Thumper Turret: 11950
Flame Turret: 8960
Rifle Turret: 7470
Net Turret: 7470
Rocket Turret: 7470
Healing Turret: 5980

That hp doesn’t mean anything. 10k hp is incredibly low when they don’t:
- Move out of aoe.
- Don’t evade when the master dodges.
- Doesn’t have a heal.
These are the reasons players survive damage, these HP pools are not even remotely related to a player’s HP pool in terms of tankiness.

Thieves Guild:8000 health) (105-126 DPS)
Thieves Guild:8000 health) (50% slower attack speed) (410-512 DPS)

WOW why does yours have double the damage, double the hp, lasts till death and have a shorter cooldown on death?

Turrets have high survivability.

• They can’t be crit.
• They have perma protection.
• They can’t get condi damage.
• They don’t move. So they don’t ball up for AoE. The correct way to place turrets is to spread them out.

Turrets are weak because Engineers lack utility. Necro have 3 skillbars, turret Engineer has 1.

This is exactly correct.