Guild Wars 2

Frustratingly so… Or is it just me?

Similar situation to turret engi, killable and not OP. But some people can’t face it and then repeatedly die to it.

Calling it now, MM the new turret engi.

its aids yes but a moa will easily counter rendering it useless.

I think of them like Mesmers. They’re annoying if all of your skills needs a target or can be body blocked. If your build primarily does damage in an AoE then they’re easier to deal with IMO.

ragnarokda.1805:

I think of them like Mesmers. They’re annoying if all of your skills needs a target or can be body blocked. If your build primarily does damage in an AoE then they’re easier to deal with IMO.

Yeah true, don’t have issues on my engi, but good lord i am having issues with them on thief.

They are infinitely better after today’s change, especially in team fights where you can push them on a target to focus, whereas before they really couldn’t.

I personally find elixir based engine to be the best counter by far, not only because of Moa, but because of high CC, sustain, and damage pressure in general. dd ele and burn guard are also rough due to minions walking through the fire rings.

I wouldn’t compare MM necro to turret engis, because turrets were all about forcing decaps, which MM can’t effectively do. MM necro also requires micromanagement of minions and AoE heals and CC skills to work well. MM necro is very weak to CC and focus fire, since blowing up the flesh wurm is are only chance to escape, and it does a pretty good job at handling disengages, however its difficult to reengage after blowing it up.

Also, the biggest issue with Turret engi was that pets were immune to conditions and not easily killed. That’s a pretty significant factor to consider, as once they were killable, they had similar potential but were much easier to just remove. MM are similar. They’re good for 1v1/ccing a target, but their capabilities are very limited. Turrets were actually good in team fights as they also provided boon share and other similar things. So yeah, maybe they have a 1v1 edge, I’ll grant that, they’re not nearly on the same level of being problematic. AI stigma will always be there in terms of what defines “risk v reward” but you have to have a foggy memory to compare MM to what Turrets were.

ronpierce.2760:

Also, the biggest issue with Turret engi was that pets were immune to conditions and not easily killed. That’s a pretty significant factor to consider, as once they were killable, they had similar potential but were much easier to just remove. MM are similar. They’re good for 1v1/ccing a target, but their capabilities are very limited. Turrets were actually good in team fights as they also provided boon share and other similar things. So yeah, maybe they have a 1v1 edge, I’ll grant that, they’re not nearly on the same level of being problematic. AI stigma will always be there in terms of what defines “risk v reward” but you have to have a foggy memory to compare MM to what Turrets were.

I feel that MM is stronger because they are mobile and can rotate without sacrificing a heavy CD, even the CDs are shorted on them than turrets were.

GrandHaven.1052:

ronpierce.2760:

Also, the biggest issue with Turret engi was that pets were immune to conditions and not easily killed. That’s a pretty significant factor to consider, as once they were killable, they had similar potential but were much easier to just remove. MM are similar. They’re good for 1v1/ccing a target, but their capabilities are very limited. Turrets were actually good in team fights as they also provided boon share and other similar things. So yeah, maybe they have a 1v1 edge, I’ll grant that, they’re not nearly on the same level of being problematic. AI stigma will always be there in terms of what defines “risk v reward” but you have to have a foggy memory to compare MM to what Turrets were.

I feel that MM is stronger because they are mobile and can rotate without sacrificing a heavy CD, even the CDs are shorted on them than turrets were.

Their mobility is still bottom of the barrel in terms of normal mobility. The problem with MM is, unlike Turrets, mobility means very little when you’re close-to-useless in team fights, where rotating might be beneficial. And by time you make it anywhere a thief would have already decapped you twice over. They’re marginally more mobile, but they’re about a hundred times less useful in team fights, which is why you often see MMs “bunk home” which typically means stand there and not move because even if you “can” move, you’re not doing any favors if you do, and that also makes mid fights 4v5.

Good turret players (I know, I did it and qued witha few guys from abjured for a while) would just blow up their turrets after a fight and by time you got where you were going 1-2 were up, and the other soon after. And if not you always had crate as a back-up plan.

Against a minion master, you can literally just run in circles while hitting the necro and you already negate most of the damage.

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Against a minion master, you can literally just run in circles while hitting the necro and you already negate most of the damage.

Have you faced an MM recently? The minions act a lot faster and are a lot more responsive.

Any time you go from things working 50% or less of the time to working 95%+ of the time, things will be “better.”

MM Necro being decent I’d say is a good thing. The build has clear counters, strengths, and weaknesses while not being overbearing to the point where out-playing it is definitely a possibility.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Any time you go from things working 50% or less of the time to working 95%+ of the time, things will be “better.”

MM Necro being decent I’d say is a good thing. The build has clear counters, strengths, and weaknesses while not being overbearing to the point where out-playing it is definitely a possibility.

Sounds EXACTLY like turret engi to me, and that was basically deleted from the game.
Never really had a problem vs turret engis, but I DO HATE passive play and don’t think that it should exist in any form of PvP. But that is just me…

Anyway, I give it a week, then this will be another very vocal hated build.

GrandHaven.1052:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Any time you go from things working 50% or less of the time to working 95%+ of the time, things will be “better.”

MM Necro being decent I’d say is a good thing. The build has clear counters, strengths, and weaknesses while not being overbearing to the point where out-playing it is definitely a possibility.

Sounds EXACTLY like turret engi to me, and that was basically deleted from the game.
Never really had a problem vs turret engis, but I DO HATE passive play and don’t think that it should exist in any form of PvP. But that is just me…

Anyway, I give it a week, then this will be another very vocal hated build.

Rather different from turret engie in actual play, though. Minions can all be AoE’d down together while turrets can’t be. Most minions can also be kited while turrets can’t be. Plus, the Necro needs to both lock down the opponents so the minions can hit as well as keep the minions alive so they can return the favor. There is a lot more interaction between Necro and Minion than there ever was between Engineer and Turret.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Rather different from turret engie in actual play, though. Minions can all be AoE’d down together while turrets can’t be. Most minions can also be kited while turrets can’t be. Plus, the Necro needs to both lock down the opponents so the minions can hit as well as keep the minions alive so they can return the favor. There is a lot more interaction between Necro and Minion than there ever was between Engineer and Turret.

Of course turrets can be kited, LOSing… Essentially the same thing.
And the interactions on Engi are less, for sure, but still not as little as you seem to make it…
Sounds like you are not familiar with engi to be honest. Nothing wrong with that, just an observation.

GrandHaven.1052:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Any time you go from things working 50% or less of the time to working 95%+ of the time, things will be “better.”

MM Necro being decent I’d say is a good thing. The build has clear counters, strengths, and weaknesses while not being overbearing to the point where out-playing it is definitely a possibility.

Sounds EXACTLY like turret engi to me, and that was basically deleted from the game.
Never really had a problem vs turret engis, but I DO HATE passive play and don’t think that it should exist in any form of PvP. But that is just me…

Anyway, I give it a week, then this will be another very vocal hated build.

You’re trying awful hard at making this a problem, but it sounds like you have an issue with one 1v1. The problem with Turret engi was all of their damage was ranged, more consistent damage than MM, they were nearly impossible to kill (the turrets) and could actually be used in higher tier to some extent. Oh and they only used one weapon making it the easiest build to play in the game, which didn’t even use the f-skills frequently. You’re making yourself look silly because 1v1/passive play is not what made Turret engies the problem they were, it was a lot of issues combined.

MM is the most hard counted build in the entire game

Elixer X and Moah still make MM almost unplayable in PVP.

Still waiting for the change where your minions turn into baby moahs that can be killed, instead of destroying all minions and put your heal, all utilities and elite on full cooldown.

ronpierce.2760:

they were nearly impossible to kill (the turrets) and could actually be used in higher tier to some extent.

Not even remotely true but lets not get into that age old conversation again.

The point that i am TRYING to make is that MM isn’t really any different to turret engi. ACCEPT that its more mobile and the minions can be crit/condid/ccd. But something to note is that they can be effected by boons too, which turrets never could.

I honestly think its no different and that it shouldn’t be allowed to be even remotely viable UNLESS turret engi is brought back, only fair….

I don’t like passive builds, but lets be fair here.

GrandHaven.1052:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Rather different from turret engie in actual play, though. Minions can all be AoE’d down together while turrets can’t be. Most minions can also be kited while turrets can’t be. Plus, the Necro needs to both lock down the opponents so the minions can hit as well as keep the minions alive so they can return the favor. There is a lot more interaction between Necro and Minion than there ever was between Engineer and Turret.

Of course turrets can be kited, LOSing… Essentially the same thing.
And the interactions on Engi are less, for sure, but still not as little as you seem to make it…
Sounds like you are not familiar with engi to be honest. Nothing wrong with that, just an observation.

LoS and kiting are two different things. Against a MM, you can keep fighting the Necro just fine while kiting the minions. Against a turret engie, if you LoS the turrets, you can’t fight the engie either.

Engineer-turret interaction does (except for heal turret) relate only to placement and timing of the actives (including detnation). All turrets are ranged and either homing (rocket), AoE (flame, thumper), or incredibly fast projectile (rifle) meaning that to avoid them, actual active defenses must be used. To avoid minions, you can just keep running around.

So, the Engie doesn’t need to lock anyone down for the turrets to be effective. The Necro does. Likewise, if an engie spread his turrets (most did, including all good ones), you couldn’t destroy them all in one go. Necros don’t have the ability to prevent their minions from getting grouped up for AoE.

Additional counterplay and interaction between master and AI makes MM Necro a healthier build for the game than Turret engies were.

Login.5102:

MM is the most hard counted build in the entire game

Elixer X and Moah still make MM almost unplayable in PVP.

Still waiting for the change where your minions turn into baby moahs that can be killed, instead of destroying all minions and put your heal, all utilities and elite on full cooldown.

Thats the main reason I don’t run blood fiend.

GrandHaven.1052:

ronpierce.2760:

they were nearly impossible to kill (the turrets) and could actually be used in higher tier to some extent.

they can be effected by POSITIVE conditions too…

:)/thread

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

LoS and kiting are two different things. Against a MM, you can keep fighting the Necro just fine while kiting the minions. Against a turret engie, if you LoS the turrets, you can’t fight the engie either.

Engineer-turret interaction does (except for heal turret) relate only to placement and timing of the actives (including detnation). All turrets are ranged and either homing (rocket), AoE (flame, thumper), or incredibly fast projectile (rifle) meaning that to avoid them, actual active defenses must be used. To avoid minions, you can just keep running around.

So, the Engie doesn’t need to lock anyone down for the turrets to be effective. The Necro does. Likewise, if an engie spread his turrets (most did, including all good ones), you couldn’t destroy them all in one go. Necros don’t have the ability to prevent their minions from getting grouped up for AoE.

Additional counterplay and interaction between master and AI makes MM Necro a healthier build for the game than Turret engies were.

I just don’t agree with you.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

LoS and kiting are two different things. Against a MM, you can keep fighting the Necro just fine while kiting the minions. Against a turret engie, if you LoS the turrets, you can’t fight the engie either.

Engineer-turret interaction does (except for heal turret) relate only to placement and timing of the actives (including detnation). All turrets are ranged and either homing (rocket), AoE (flame, thumper), or incredibly fast projectile (rifle) meaning that to avoid them, actual active defenses must be used. To avoid minions, you can just keep running around.

So, the Engie doesn’t need to lock anyone down for the turrets to be effective. The Necro does. Likewise, if an engie spread his turrets (most did, including all good ones), you couldn’t destroy them all in one go. Necros don’t have the ability to prevent their minions from getting grouped up for AoE.

Additional counterplay and interaction between master and AI makes MM Necro a healthier build for the game than Turret engies were.

Quoted for truth.

Ha3. It’s even better than turret engi. In unranked, the times when I lose is either against good premade or my team is dc-ed or sucks real hard. I rarely lose 1v1 but a good premade can easily gang you up. I even occassionally kill people when I have like 1k ping because of death nova.

Although, moa can be considered as a hard-counter for mm necro. But I rarely meet good engi or you can play smart by rotating around the engi. It’s also hard to fight against staff ele or d/d ele (of course ha3).

and yes my MMR is high, occasionally meet noscoc at unranked, that’s when I know I may lose. I don’t play ranked anymore since I only wanna goof around.

Well at least, the d/d ele QQ is brighter than MM necro. I don’t see MM necro will be tweaked.

Do you remember “play the game, not the UI” ? Now it’s “play the AI, not the game”.
I am not qualified enough to speak about balance or anything, but i’ll still say it – this game has too kittening many pets in pvp and a kittenty targeting system.

When i am against a team with a MM and two mesmers i just want to puke in my mouth. Add eles and rangers and the visual clutter and the body blocking is glorious.

GrandHaven.1052:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Any time you go from things working 50% or less of the time to working 95%+ of the time, things will be “better.”

MM Necro being decent I’d say is a good thing. The build has clear counters, strengths, and weaknesses while not being overbearing to the point where out-playing it is definitely a possibility.

Sounds EXACTLY like turret engi to me, and that was basically deleted from the game.
Never really had a problem vs turret engis, but I DO HATE passive play and don’t think that it should exist in any form of PvP. But that is just me…

Anyway, I give it a week, then this will be another very vocal hated build.

You remind me of something…

It’s fine. MM necro is utterly unviable still.

GrandHaven.1052:

ragnarokda.1805:

I think of them like Mesmers. They’re annoying if all of your skills needs a target or can be body blocked. If your build primarily does damage in an AoE then they’re easier to deal with IMO.

Yeah true, don’t have issues on my engi, but good lord i am having issues with them on thief.

Yeah, those pesky pets get in the way of almost every Shadow Shot.

serenke.4806:

It’s fine. MM necro is utterly unviable still.

Not so sure about that, but I am of the opinion the traditional one people run using transfusion isn’t the way to go.

NeXeD.3042:

serenke.4806:

It’s fine. MM necro is utterly unviable still.

Not so sure about that, but I am of the opinion the traditional one people run using transfusion isn’t the way to go.

what does you meaning ??

Velimere.7685:

NeXeD.3042:

serenke.4806:

It’s fine. MM necro is utterly unviable still.

Not so sure about that, but I am of the opinion the traditional one people run using transfusion isn’t the way to go.

what does you meaning ??

Unholy Martyr condition juggling, probably. It lets you stay in Death Shroud for a deceptively long time.

This is funny. Turrets were OP because they were immune to condition damage and critical strikes, making them a hard counter to condi and berserker builds. Anet fixed turrets by making them take normal damage from crits and condis.

Necro minions have always taken damage from condis and crits, which is why they have always been easy to deal with. Every single class can wipe out all the necro minions, including the elite, in a couple of AOEs, be they condi (e.g. ring of fire) or physical (volley).

Even a full zerk 100b warrior can pop 1 cooldown (endure pain) and just 100b all the minions. It’s an easy trade between using 1 utility and putting the necro’s 3 utilities + elite on cooldown. Now that the minions don’t idle outside of combat as much, they’re MUCH easier to kill since they group up better and stand in AOE. MM will never be viable in mid or high level play. The only place it could work is against new players who get overwhelmed by the number of targets instead of just nuking all of them with a big aoe.

GrandHaven.1052:

ragnarokda.1805:

I think of them like Mesmers. They’re annoying if all of your skills needs a target or can be body blocked. If your build primarily does damage in an AoE then they’re easier to deal with IMO.

Yeah true, don’t have issues on my engi, but good lord i am having issues with them on thief.

Shortbow 1 and 2 = dead minions in a couple of attacks. It only takes 2 cluster bombs to wipe out all of them if they’re grouped.