Guild Wars 2

I understand TL;DR but please read it all it’ll take 5 minutes and voice your CONSTRUCTIVE feedback on this post below

Hey seeing as every thread keeps getting deleted destroyed the 90% bad posts but also the 10% constructive ones Im starting my own thread in direct response to JonPeters regarding the need to know finer details of what our problems with PvP are…" the devil is in the details " as you put it Jon.

This may not be 100% accurate but as a GW2 veteran in all aspects of the game here is my take.

1) Communication – It appears there is a lack of communication with playerbase and higher up devs like Colin Johansen ( spelling? sorry ) regarding the state of PvP. With the playerbase you are worried if your behind schedule you may get alternative outburst saying " We were promised x you didnt deliver on time /rage ". However I feel that majority of the PvP community would rather know what your working on and you be open with us and then have to wait say 2 weeks to a month if you are behind on a certain feature etc. Than be kept in complete darkness. Yes there will be those mad about you missing a deadline so to speak but communication > darkness.

Regarding communication to higher devs, as PAX showed it appears that the higher up devs such as Colin aren’t aware of the state PvP is in. You need to be vocal and assertive and constantly be going to them explaining current issues, telling them what you are working on and some ideas that the community have thrown out. Now if you have told them but Colin still wanted to say " Nothing exciting is coming for PvP we wanted to make a game thats easy to follow along and we are happy with what our PvP has accomplished " . ( I’m paraphrasing ). Then you need to keep saying to them…well no. Theres some major issues here. What Colin could / should have said to the PvP question. " Great question we definitely understand there are some key issues in PvP at the moment but we are working closely with our PvP team to iron them out, having experienced both feedback from our players and devs over this year we are still proud of the accomplishments we have made so far regarding PvP and plan to keep moving forward to make PvP in this game even greater. "

That statement to me, is still PR loaded and delicate. But it acknowledges our concerns. Now thats assuming they are aware of PvP issues but still chose to make that statement…In my humble opinion that is a problem with those higher up devs making a questionable choice of words…Heres the flip side perhaps the higher up devs don’t even know the real issues with PvP? If thats the case then Jon that falls on the PvP dev team in not telling them. Again goes back to being vocal and assertive. Get all up in their grill!

2) Playerbase and lack thereof – Another post in another thread mentioned some details about 17,000 unique players doing Solo Q. If thats the case I think we can all agree that number is quite low. The playerbase needs to improve before we can consider " esports " or even " competitive PvP " at this point. I believe the issues regarding playerbase are 2 things. First is the overwhelmingness to new PvP’ers. Leave this to the community, through streams and youtube videos etc FOR NOW we, the community can educate newer players. YOUR JOB now, again in my humble opinion, should be PvP rewards and balance.

First off rewards you need to bridge the gap between PvP and PvE. Dailies for example. If you complete a daily you should get mystic coin/s laurel jug of karma as well as PvP stuff….and as such you should be able to complete a mix of PvE and PvP daily achievements to get that daily done….or all PvE or all PvP. So now a PvP’er can gain PvE related items. PvP should also grant silver / gold. PvP should also grant you levels for PvE / World v World. And of course…overhaul the PvP specific reward system. This is a must, you must incentivise PvP’ing. If you are stuck for ideas on how to overhaul the PvP reward structure tell us, be open about it and the community can give ideas.

Second part of this is balance and I feel you already know a lot about what we expect balance to be like, so I want to focus specifically on PACE OF THE GAME. PvP is too fast at the moment….you should look to reduce all damage specifically condition damage. Slow the pace down. We want burst to require a team effort, not a single class spamming off global cooldown abilities like an ele etc. We should be able to see – " Okay we have a team fight here the guardian went in and split the team up with shield 5 oh wow the mesmer has been split apart from his team, the warrior jumps on him with his stuns while the thief bursts him down, Wow great play there. " and that should happen over the course of 5-10 seconds. Methodical in play not this glass cannon thief just backstabbed someone and he died admist spamming aoe.

3) Final thoughts – Theres a lot to accomplish here and if indeed 17,000 is the number of players we currently have participating in Solo Q its understandable why a company wouldn’t invest much in that game mode. But you have to look past that and trust that the combat system and potential of this game is ridiculous. Please have faith in your own product and tackle 1 step at a time.

First and foremost, balance and pace of the game, and reward system for PvP including overlapping for PvE etc. These 2 should be your top priority from here on out until you get them done! Amidst that be vocal with both community and your higher up devs. @jonpeters and crew Your community while having some volatile members too…will rally behind you if you can push past the small playerbase numbers and how that warrants less attention that other areas. If you push past that and give us these key features and talk to us, communicate and fight for the amazing PvP this game can have you will grow tremendously!

There have been dozens of threads calling out specific devs over what they did wrong.
They tend to never respond.

But best of luck!
:)

personally i find it kinda sad that PvP needs some PvE carrots to be attractive, but at the same time i see why: PvE players won’t take that first bite into PvP if they feel they could be getting more stuff for the game mode they care about by avoiding it. it’s more the bait, and less the hook. or that’s how it should be, ideally.

on the communication side, i think they could afford to open an exception to their “no talk no show” policy for PvP, where there aren’t any spoilers and stuff. just make it very clear that anything that isn’t on a live build is subject to change, if your reason for poor communication is “we can’t communicate well enough”, then polish the communication skills. be open, and be clear.

if people start hammering “but you promised”, then explain how it was never a promise, or better, simply ignore them. the important thing is to gather feedback on things (of course theorycrafting can only go so far, but feedback can open up unexpected approaches that you can test yourselves), and to let the playerbase know what is going on behind the scenes, instead of leaving them in the dark, getting complained about daily, and knowing that you have what they’re asking for hidden in a closet, waiting for patch day.

why looking in PvE for PvP players.
because PvP players were ignored for a year.
and from watching the developer answer to one of the questions they will never come back.
Q. will we get more modes for PvP like GvG?
the answer he got was NO the mode we have is fine and we will not add GvG because we have WvW.

I do not understand the lack of communication from the PvP devs. I am starting to think there are none. Just faces to make it appear to be real. To me, Anet seems to think that the PvP community in a whole is against them. I don’t understand this. I just have no interest anymore in PvP. Maybe one day if they do something special people will come back. Until it just seems like more and more people are just…nowhere to be seen.

ColinJohanson.2394:

Since you called me out by name you get called back yo! Just wanted to point out that quote from PAX about PvP was not from me, though reading the article it sure sounded that way so I can see where it would be confusing

I don’t think PvP is done by any means. We’ve had some great successes this year, the total PvP population has gone up tremendously as the year has progressed and is much larger than Gw1’s PvP ever was at it’s height, which is nice to see since the game hasn’t launched in half the world yet. Spectator mode and custom arenas have opened the door for some really exciting growth and moments in 2013 in particular. We still have a long ways to go to get to where we’re going, but considering where we stood when we launched with almost no features in PvP I think we’ve come a long ways. We are of course always continuing to watch and listen to feedback, things like the addition of solo queue are direct results of that.

As a reminder, we did a blog post back in July that summarizes our major focuses for Gw2 in the 2nd half of 2013, if you scroll down to the PvP section you can find what some of our major focuses are. We told you what we’re working on priority wise already, once we have specific details we’ll share those as well : https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/looking-ahead-guild-wars-2-in-2013/

From that list, we’ve already completed some of those tasks since July. As we said back at the end of July, one of our major focuses is on that sense of reward and progression for the 2nd half of 2013. And since they are game-wide and not covered in the PvP section: of course our skills and balance team will be continuing to update and balance now that the tournament final is over.

Holy crap!!! Thanks for posting.

If there was just one thing I could wish for, it’s just be more communication, like how WvW forums have red posts constantly, just having atleast 1 guy there talking with everyone is seriously the best thing I think you guys could do for the spvp community.

Assyrian.4827:

why looking in PvE for PvP players.
because PvP players were ignored for a year.
and from watching the developer answer to one of the questions they will never come back.
Q. will we get more modes for PvP like GvG?
the answer he got was NO the mode we have is fine and we will not add GvG because we have WvW.

because PvE players are more easier to monetize?

ColinJohanson.2394:

I don’t think PvP is done by any means. We’ve had some great successes this year, the total PvP population has gone up tremendously as the year has progressed and is much larger than Gw1’s PvP ever was at it’s height, which is nice to see since the game hasn’t launched in half the world yet

I don’t know why I find this so hard to believe considering Gw1’s PvP was so much more active. So much more fun. Just so much more in general. I may have busted a vein laughing at this statement. What all in Gw2 do these numbers include? WvW,HotJoins,tPvP and sPvP. That’s just insane. If it is so active why do you face the same 5 teams in a row in tPvP? If the excuse is the match up to the ladder that is a whole other subject considering the ladder is so majorly flawed.

fugazi.5139:

ColinJohanson.2394:

I don’t think PvP is done by any means. We’ve had some great successes this year, the total PvP population has gone up tremendously as the year has progressed and is much larger than Gw1’s PvP ever was at it’s height, which is nice to see since the game hasn’t launched in half the world yet

I don’t know why I find this so hard to believe considering Gw1’s PvP was so much more active. So much more fun. Just so much more in general.

may be it is GW2 PvP +WvW.

Assyrian.4827:

fugazi.5139:

ColinJohanson.2394:

I don’t think PvP is done by any means. We’ve had some great successes this year, the total PvP population has gone up tremendously as the year has progressed and is much larger than Gw1’s PvP ever was at it’s height, which is nice to see since the game hasn’t launched in half the world yet

I don’t know why I find this so hard to believe considering Gw1’s PvP was so much more active. So much more fun. Just so much more in general.

may be it is GW2 PvP +WvW.

It has to be.

Simply put: They alienated and lost the majority of the pvp base in WvW and sPvP. They realize their tactics to make money off of pve and ignoring pvp lead to that.

It is easier for them to focus on pve now since they lost the pvp base. Now they are making WvW PVE/zerg/casual player friendly.

I’d seek competitive pvp in another game.

ColinJohanson.2394:

fugazi.5139:

I don’t know why I find this so hard to believe considering Gw1’s PvP was so much more active. So much more fun. Just so much more in general. I may have busted a vein laughing at this statement. What all in Gw2 do these numbers include? WvW,HotJoins,tPvP and sPvP. That’s just insane. If it is so active why do you face the same 5 teams in a row in tPvP? If the excuse is the match up to the ladder that is a whole other subject considering the ladder is so majorly flawed.

We Gw1 super-fans tend to remember things with rose colored glasses, I know I do at times since it’s one of my fondest life memories over those years!

People tend to play in different places in Gw2, hot join, solo and team queue and custom arenas combined account for a much larger population than GvG/Team/Random/HA arena ever had most of the time. This doesn’t include WvW, which population wise blows the roof off on top of this.

One thing I think that factors into it sometimes is region based play, Gw1 had the entire world matched up simultaneously so even during off hours, you’d catch people from other parts of the world. With region separation in Gw2, you get people in your region so it’s much harder to gauge the total population.

It’s ok if you like Gw1 better, but to dismiss Gw2 entirely for that reason would be a mistake. (not saying you are, but some folks do!)

is there nothing that can be done to merge the EU and NA PvP? like, if not a merge (lag issues would be intense), then maybe work on allowing PvPers to guest on EU (or NA if they’re european) on off-peak hours, kinda like GW1 districts.

ColinJohanson.2394:

One thing I think that factors into it sometimes is region based play, Gw1 had the entire world matched up simultaneously so even during off hours, you’d catch people from other parts of the world. With region separation in Gw2, you get people in your region so it’s much harder to gauge the total population.

@colin

How feasible would merging the regions be?

BrunoBRS.5178:

is there nothing that can be done to merge the EU and NA PvP? like, if not a merge (lag issues would be intense), then maybe work on allowing PvPers to guest on EU (or NA if they’re european) on off-peak hours, kinda like GW1 districts.

Welcome to Australia, Fibre to the Boats!.
http://fttb.org/

Not only is that funny, but is not far from the governments actual plan.

What does that mean citizen?
Well it means that we get at best 200 ms to America. Those of us not living where the fibre has been laid (and if said guys get in wont be laid) we have 300-500 ms to America. Lagg I deal with it, I’m sure you could too.

ColinJohanson.2394:

BrunoBRS.5178:

is there nothing that can be done to merge the EU and NA PvP? like, if not a merge (lag issues would be intense), then maybe work on allowing PvPers to guest on EU (or NA if they’re european) on off-peak hours, kinda like GW1 districts.

My understanding is this would require a total overhaul of the way the game systems save data and player interactions across worlds, plus put really large latency and trans-cont cable down-time issues into play. All of that being said, it may not be impossible, but it’s not going to happen any time soon given other priorities. It’d be super cool though even if it was just for PvP, I always loved that aspect of Gw1 when I saw we were up against a Korean team and I knew we were probably doomed.

well, i figured it wouldn’t be a short term thing since you guys were pretty clear on the challenges of guesting across regions and why it wasn’t implemented, but i figured it was worth asking, since apparently the “real” reason sPvP feels dead to some is because we only see half of the community on each region.

if anything, it’s worth asking your engineers for a time frame and costs of such project, just to be sure that yes, it’s kinda out of your league :P

TGSlasher.1458:

BrunoBRS.5178:

is there nothing that can be done to merge the EU and NA PvP? like, if not a merge (lag issues would be intense), then maybe work on allowing PvPers to guest on EU (or NA if they’re european) on off-peak hours, kinda like GW1 districts.

Welcome to Australia, Fibre to the Boats!.
http://fttb.org/

Not only is that funny, but is not far from the governments actual plan.

What does that mean citizen?
Well it means that we get at best 200 ms to America. Those of us not living where the fibre has been laid (and if said guys get in wont be laid) we have 300-500 ms to America. Lagg I deal with it, I’m sure you could too.

i’m from brazil, so playing online games with 250ms latency (due to the distance to most games’ servers) is the standard for me. i don’t think i can tell the lag anymore, my brain just taught itself how to process that delay.

so don’t think i’m someone worried that my ping will go above 100 if i play against a german team :P

ColinJohanson.2394:

We still have a long ways to go to get to where we’re going, but considering where we stood when we launched with almost no features in PvP I think we’ve come a long ways.

And yet, this game was hyped to be the MMO esport…

More popular than gw1 ever was on it’s height? You’re counting the hotjoin players too, I guess. I remember the time getting top 1000 in gw1 (Guild leaderboard) was ‘hard’.

ColinJohanson.2394:

Since you called me out by name you get called back yo! Just wanted to point out that quote from PAX about PvP was not from me, though reading the article it sure sounded that way so I can see where it would be confusing

I don’t think PvP is done by any means. We’ve had some great successes this year, the total PvP population has gone up tremendously as the year has progressed and is much larger than Gw1’s PvP ever was at it’s height, which is nice to see since the game hasn’t launched in half the world yet. Spectator mode and custom arenas have opened the door for some really exciting growth and moments in 2013 in particular. We still have a long ways to go to get to where we’re going, but considering where we stood when we launched with almost no features in PvP I think we’ve come a long ways. We are of course always continuing to watch and listen to feedback, things like the addition of solo queue are direct results of that.

As a reminder, we did a blog post back in July that summarizes our major focuses for Gw2 in the 2nd half of 2013, if you scroll down to the PvP section you can find what some of our major focuses are. We told you what we’re working on priority wise already, once we have specific details we’ll share those as well : https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/looking-ahead-guild-wars-2-in-2013/

From that list, we’ve already completed some of those tasks since July. As we said back at the end of July, one of our major focuses is on that sense of reward and progression for the 2nd half of 2013. And since they are game-wide and not covered in the PvP section: of course our skills and balance team will be continuing to update and balance now that the tournament final is over.

Note to all pvp directors, can we get at least some little snippet or word on what you guys are working on? The Pve players get all hyped for 2 weeks straight from the other devs from the streams like “Guess what you guys get!”. Sometimes it feels like we are in the dark and have to assume something’s gonna’ pop out in the future.

To merge Eu and NA will not work so well because of the timeline but anyway the main problem of pvp is not the current balance ( which is really beyond bad ) but the lack of satisfaction. There are no good rewords what’s so ever, there is nothing new only one game mode NO GVG I mean come on the game is clad guild wars , it’s silly to call tournament of once 1 round. What the hell I have to do with my glory I got ~ 850 K . Yes the custom arena wass cool BUT why does it cost gems !!! pvp people can’t make any gems unless they pay cash or do pve . Make team arena of 2-3 rounds and winner wins gems. Solo q is kinda good I play in top 100-300 all the time and the balance there is kind of good ( it can be bather ). Why do you love rangers so much last 5-6 balance patches you buff them beyond comprehension.
Get more ppl to paly pvp then do a good balance you can do it like :
1 sell gw just pvp mode for half the price
2 bather rewords let pvp ppl get skins from living story
3 better stuff for glory
4 what was the point of qualification points
If you lock on the forum and ignore the cry babies you can find a lot of good stuff there

Negative sarcastic response: Oh! that feeling when a dev responds to a post… It’s like missing your abusive father and despite all his flaws you love him anyways, even if you know his worlds of love are empty…

-Joking!- (DON’T NERF MY MYSTIC FORGE DROPS ANY MORE! I KNOW YOU HAVE THAT SWITCH FROM THE FLINTSTONES MOVIE AT THE CASINO!)

Real response: I’m a bit less pessimistic about the future than most people. Realistically if you think of everything as an extended beta something will end up being right eventually as long as the game is supported, and PvE seems to do that enough, it’s just about the effort you as a player put in before-hand.

I personally didn’t understand why the game had to be held back for the tournaments, privet LAN server or just telling the players to adapt I think would be completely valid imo. Game changes are like the chaos theory of life, they change the state of the game as much as a sports player who’s getting sick (but not there yet) or another who’s sensitive to the cold when it starts snowing. There is no reason why these teams could not have adapted or decided to run a different comp if they saw something they found relevant.

That being said now that everything is done I’m looking forward to how things change.

and on that note

ColinJohanson.2394:

of course our skills and balance team will be continuing to update and balance now that the tournament final is over.

I really Really REALLY REALLY hope that they have been working on things despite not having any real changes on the release updates. It’s going to be rather disappointing if come late September there’s a ton of tool tip updates and a few minor buffs to underused skills. I’d then have to question what went on the past while especially when it’s been shown that skills can be changed on the fly if need be.

Either way fingers crossed.

dont need to merge – theres enough players at any given time 24h a day

we need only 3 things asap in spvp :

1.) better reward system
*this means not only glory things or armorskins for playing – i talk bout rewards for being in leaderboards
*simple fixes to what we have atm – salvaging chests are sooo anoying – remove skins from them and do mats in OR remove the asking for when i wanna salvage a item

2.) more gamemodes – very important
(dont need to be competive – funmodes would be ok too atm)

3.) balance and faster reaction on problems – and there should be NOTHING in and out of the game holding back a balancing patch or hotfix for any balancing problem

• we all know necro do to much dmg and other things

butch.8136:

ColinJohanson.2394:

We still have a long ways to go to get to where we’re going, but considering where we stood when we launched with almost no features in PvP I think we’ve come a long ways.

And yet, this game was hyped to be the MMO esport…

More popular than gw1 ever was on it’s height? You’re counting the hotjoin players too, I guess. I remember the time getting top 1000 in gw1 (Guild leaderboard) was ‘hard’.

Yeah but I think even Anet could agree it was a mistake to hype the game as an Esports title from the get go, because you just can’t MAKE an esports game, you make a good pvp game and then esports is born from it.

Romek.4201:

dont need to merge – theres enough players at any given time 24h a day

we need only 3 things asap in spvp :

1.) better reward system
*this means not only glory things or armorskins for playing – i talk bout rewards for being in leaderboards
*simple fixes to what we have atm – salvaging chests are sooo anoying – remove skins from them and do mats in OR remove the asking for when i wanna salvage a item

2.) more gamemodes – very important
(dont need to be competive – funmodes would be ok too atm)

3.) balance and faster reaction on problems – and there should be NOTHING in and out of the game holding back a balancing patch or hotfix for any balancing problem

• we all know necro do to much dmg and other things

Yeah, besides more communication the ONLY other thing I could seriously beg for is to put aside the notions of forcing the game into an esports and 100% focus on just making it pure FUN, the competitive scene will come naturally.

This is how the successful esports games out there now came to be, follow their example.

inc thread delete cuz calling out mod! lolol

how bout u talk with your uppers and say "HEY LOOK WE PVP DEVS NEED MORE RESOURCES. I know you old guys don’t PVP but throw me a frickin bone here. "

JonathanSharp.7094:

We agree! We are working to make the game more rewarding, fun, and easy to get into. We’d love for the game to be an esport, but as you say, that’s not something you can force!

Strong + steady.

thanks jon! i’m looking forward to the new rewards!

me too new reward!

ColinJohanson.2394:

We Gw1 super-fans tend to remember things with rose colored glasses, I know I do at times since it’s one of my fondest life memories over those years!

That is the constant slap in the face rude sarcastic attitude the Gw2 devs and Anet in general have had towards the Gw2 PvP community this entire time. Disgusting.

@JonPeters and ColinJohansen

A huge thank you for responding…I suspect you guys are aware but definitely don’t underestimate the value of communication even if it is a little update on the same things your working on say every month etc.

@Colin I hope you can understand from players perspective being stuck with this meta for such a long time without change and then to watch PAX and see that response. That being said, thank you for responding and I would like to apologise for the crap your twitch chat had to deal with.

A question to Jon and Colin etc Do you guys feel that allowing the meta to stay in such a state for so long was a mistake in hindsight? Also do you agree with the sentiment that the Pace of PvP could be toned down to benefit both play and viewing pleasure?

ColinJohanson.2394:

fugazi.5139:

may be it is GW2 PvP +WvW.
It has to be.

Extra fun fact: the population of WvW who plays any given week regularly is larger than the entire population of all of Gw1 the game any given week for a large chunk of the games lifespan. Just want to put things in perspective, Gw1 was amazing, but there is a reason we made Gw2.

Fun fact: WvW is garb. People should not be forced to play it because it has the most attention.
Fun fact: If you made Gw2 to complete forget Gw1, you should have named it something else.

fugazi.5139:

ColinJohanson.2394:

We Gw1 super-fans tend to remember things with rose colored glasses, I know I do at times since it’s one of my fondest life memories over those years!

That is the constant slap in the face rude sarcastic attitude the Gw2 devs and Anet in general have had towards the Gw2 PvP community this entire time. Disgusting.

A little over sensitive I’d say. You’re literally just hunting for things to get upset about aren’t you? Your response and others like it are the reason why we don’t get devposts here. It’s hard to have a constructive dialogue when one party keeps having hysterics.

Feel free to explain to everyone what was so insulting about that.

Zanthrax.6538:

@JonPeters and ColinJohansen

A huge thank you for responding…I suspect you guys are aware but definitely don’t underestimate the value of communication even if it is a little update on the same things your working on say every month etc.

@Colin I hope you can understand from players perspective being stuck with this meta for such a long time without change and then to watch PAX and see that response. That being said, thank you for responding and I would like to apologise for the crap your twitch chat had to deal with.

A question to Jon and Colin etc Do you guys feel that allowing the meta to stay in such a state for so long was a mistake in hindsight? Also do you agree with the sentiment that the Pace of PvP could be toned down to benefit both play and viewing pleasure?

*Jonathan Sharp, not Jon Peters :P

butch.8136:

ColinJohanson.2394:

We still have a long ways to go to get to where we’re going, but considering where we stood when we launched with almost no features in PvP I think we’ve come a long ways.

And yet, this game was hyped to be the MMO esport…

More popular than gw1 ever was on it’s height? You’re counting the hotjoin players too, I guess. I remember the time getting top 1000 in gw1 (Guild leaderboard) was ‘hard’.

Exactly. They can try defend Gw2 and try and make it seem like it is better than Gw1 but the truth is…It never will be.

JonathanSharp.7094:

Zanthrax.6538:

@JonPeters and ColinJohansen

A huge thank you for responding…I suspect you guys are aware but definitely don’t underestimate the value of communication even if it is a little update on the same things your working on say every month etc.

@Colin I hope you can understand from players perspective being stuck with this meta for such a long time without change and then to watch PAX and see that response. That being said, thank you for responding and I would like to apologise for the crap your twitch chat had to deal with.

A question to Jon and Colin etc Do you guys feel that allowing the meta to stay in such a state for so long was a mistake in hindsight? Also do you agree with the sentiment that the Pace of PvP could be toned down to benefit both play and viewing pleasure?

In GW1, we had a major tournament, and we had a balance patch come out right before the tournament. The teams in the tournament felt that this was difficult for them, as they already had to travel/etc., so it really messed up their builds. BUT, I also understand how you guys feel – we held balance updates until later so that we kept the meta stable (even if it has issues) for the tournament.

There are 2 sides to that, and I think both sides have merit.

As to the speed, yes, I agree. We want to make the game more fun to play and also easier to watch. This isn’t only for esports, it’s also for new players. Slowing the game down slightly would allow more players to watch good players, and more easily figure out how to play. So I agree w/ you there.

What happened to that quote from some dev: “Bad for the player, Good for the game?”

JonathanSharp.7094:

Zanthrax.6538:

@JonPeters and ColinJohansen

A huge thank you for responding…I suspect you guys are aware but definitely don’t underestimate the value of communication even if it is a little update on the same things your working on say every month etc.

@Colin I hope you can understand from players perspective being stuck with this meta for such a long time without change and then to watch PAX and see that response. That being said, thank you for responding and I would like to apologise for the crap your twitch chat had to deal with.

A question to Jon and Colin etc Do you guys feel that allowing the meta to stay in such a state for so long was a mistake in hindsight? Also do you agree with the sentiment that the Pace of PvP could be toned down to benefit both play and viewing pleasure?

In GW1, we had a major tournament, and we had a balance patch come out right before the tournament. The teams in the tournament felt that this was difficult for them, as they already had to travel/etc., so it really messed up their builds. BUT, I also understand how you guys feel – we held balance updates until later so that we kept the meta stable (even if it has issues) for the tournament.

There are 2 sides to that, and I think both sides have merit.

As to the speed, yes, I agree. We want to make the game more fun to play and also easier to watch. This isn’t only for esports, it’s also for new players. Slowing the game down slightly would allow more players to watch good players, and more easily figure out how to play. So I agree w/ you there.

This would be solved just by having a seperate tournament server/patch like League of Legends, but considering we don’t have that I’m assuming it’s too difficult for you guys to do that right now.

Zzod.5791:

JonathanSharp.7094:

Zanthrax.6538:

@JonPeters and ColinJohansen

A huge thank you for responding…I suspect you guys are aware but definitely don’t underestimate the value of communication even if it is a little update on the same things your working on say every month etc.

@Colin I hope you can understand from players perspective being stuck with this meta for such a long time without change and then to watch PAX and see that response. That being said, thank you for responding and I would like to apologise for the crap your twitch chat had to deal with.

A question to Jon and Colin etc Do you guys feel that allowing the meta to stay in such a state for so long was a mistake in hindsight? Also do you agree with the sentiment that the Pace of PvP could be toned down to benefit both play and viewing pleasure?

In GW1, we had a major tournament, and we had a balance patch come out right before the tournament. The teams in the tournament felt that this was difficult for them, as they already had to travel/etc., so it really messed up their builds. BUT, I also understand how you guys feel – we held balance updates until later so that we kept the meta stable (even if it has issues) for the tournament.

There are 2 sides to that, and I think both sides have merit.

As to the speed, yes, I agree. We want to make the game more fun to play and also easier to watch. This isn’t only for esports, it’s also for new players. Slowing the game down slightly would allow more players to watch good players, and more easily figure out how to play. So I agree w/ you there.

What happened to that quote from some dev: “Bad for the player, Good for the game?”

That was about balance/game design, not about whether to prioritize tournament integrity, or live balance.

fugazi.5139:

butch.8136:

ColinJohanson.2394:

We still have a long ways to go to get to where we’re going, but considering where we stood when we launched with almost no features in PvP I think we’ve come a long ways.

And yet, this game was hyped to be the MMO esport…

More popular than gw1 ever was on it’s height? You’re counting the hotjoin players too, I guess. I remember the time getting top 1000 in gw1 (Guild leaderboard) was ‘hard’.

Exactly. They can try defend Gw2 and try and make it seem like it is better than Gw1 but the truth is…It never will be.

If you think the game is so incapable of improving, why are you here? Why are you so pathetically attached to spreading misery? Why do you demand more developer communication, only to then take out one miniscule line or comment from everything they say when they do communicate, and hammer it with utterly illogical insults? Do you literally only want them to post more so you can continue directly insulting them?

People with this attitude are nothing but a drain on the community, the developers, and the game. If you actually wanted to help improve the developer-player relationship or the game, you wouldn’t be so obsessed with spreading negativity in every single circumstance. As it is, you offer nothing constructive to the game, and with that attitude, it’s difficult (and arguably undeserved) to take any of your suggestions or demands seriously.

@fugazi, GW1 ist still online as far as i know. So why dont you play both games ?
Try it.

JonathanSharp.7094:

Zanthrax.6538:

@JonPeters and ColinJohansen

A huge thank you for responding…I suspect you guys are aware but definitely don’t underestimate the value of communication even if it is a little update on the same things your working on say every month etc.

@Colin I hope you can understand from players perspective being stuck with this meta for such a long time without change and then to watch PAX and see that response. That being said, thank you for responding and I would like to apologise for the crap your twitch chat had to deal with.

A question to Jon and Colin etc Do you guys feel that allowing the meta to stay in such a state for so long was a mistake in hindsight? Also do you agree with the sentiment that the Pace of PvP could be toned down to benefit both play and viewing pleasure?

In GW1, we had a major tournament, and we had a balance patch come out right before the tournament. The teams in the tournament felt that this was difficult for them, as they already had to travel/etc., so it really messed up their builds. BUT, I also understand how you guys feel – we held balance updates until later so that we kept the meta stable (even if it has issues) for the tournament.

There are 2 sides to that, and I think both sides have merit.

As to the speed, yes, I agree. We want to make the game more fun to play and also easier to watch. This isn’t only for esports, it’s also for new players. Slowing the game down slightly would allow more players to watch good players, and more easily figure out how to play. So I agree w/ you there.

First off sorry about calling you Jonpeters =P….just had his name on my mind constantly lol. Secondly thats refreshing to hear, I’m glad we see eye to eye on the pace of PvP. I understand that things take time and if you aren’t aware I personally have put so much money towards this game…and I have always understood that things will take time, I often likened it to LoL which took 1.5 – 2 years to really kick off and push into esports.

This PAX event was the first time I felt disheartened that all my money and effort is going to waste. But alas its my own short comings after being so positive for so long. For the record this is what I have done for the game purely out of my own pocket.

$500 to streamer " Shinryuku_ku "
$400 to streamer " Bitcloud "
$200 to streamer " TehMaker " ( only recently started streaming GW2 again )
$300 to EU Master of the Mists tournament.
$200 to Mist League
Purchased NA game for Sir_Koroshi
Approximately 1200-1500gold in giveaways, via Koroshi, Shinryuku_ku, GW2PvPTV etc.
~$800 in gem purchases.

I’m financially well off and have a great passion for your game. Lets make this this the PvP game I know it can be! It may be hard but I still reckon being open and communicative with your playerbase is still far better than going dark so to speak…even if its updating us on the same feature your still working on. =)

Knote.2904:

JonathanSharp.7094:

Zanthrax.6538:

@JonPeters and ColinJohansen

A huge thank you for responding…I suspect you guys are aware but definitely don’t underestimate the value of communication even if it is a little update on the same things your working on say every month etc.

@Colin I hope you can understand from players perspective being stuck with this meta for such a long time without change and then to watch PAX and see that response. That being said, thank you for responding and I would like to apologise for the crap your twitch chat had to deal with.

A question to Jon and Colin etc Do you guys feel that allowing the meta to stay in such a state for so long was a mistake in hindsight? Also do you agree with the sentiment that the Pace of PvP could be toned down to benefit both play and viewing pleasure?

In GW1, we had a major tournament, and we had a balance patch come out right before the tournament. The teams in the tournament felt that this was difficult for them, as they already had to travel/etc., so it really messed up their builds. BUT, I also understand how you guys feel – we held balance updates until later so that we kept the meta stable (even if it has issues) for the tournament.

There are 2 sides to that, and I think both sides have merit.

As to the speed, yes, I agree. We want to make the game more fun to play and also easier to watch. This isn’t only for esports, it’s also for new players. Slowing the game down slightly would allow more players to watch good players, and more easily figure out how to play. So I agree w/ you there.

This would be solved just by having a seperate tournament server/patch like League of Legends, but considering we don’t have that I’m assuming it’s too difficult for you guys to do that right now.

Zzod.5791:

JonathanSharp.7094:

Zanthrax.6538:

@JonPeters and ColinJohansen

A huge thank you for responding…I suspect you guys are aware but definitely don’t underestimate the value of communication even if it is a little update on the same things your working on say every month etc.

@Colin I hope you can understand from players perspective being stuck with this meta for such a long time without change and then to watch PAX and see that response. That being said, thank you for responding and I would like to apologise for the crap your twitch chat had to deal with.

A question to Jon and Colin etc Do you guys feel that allowing the meta to stay in such a state for so long was a mistake in hindsight? Also do you agree with the sentiment that the Pace of PvP could be toned down to benefit both play and viewing pleasure?

In GW1, we had a major tournament, and we had a balance patch come out right before the tournament. The teams in the tournament felt that this was difficult for them, as they already had to travel/etc., so it really messed up their builds. BUT, I also understand how you guys feel – we held balance updates until later so that we kept the meta stable (even if it has issues) for the tournament.

There are 2 sides to that, and I think both sides have merit.

As to the speed, yes, I agree. We want to make the game more fun to play and also easier to watch. This isn’t only for esports, it’s also for new players. Slowing the game down slightly would allow more players to watch good players, and more easily figure out how to play. So I agree w/ you there.

What happened to that quote from some dev: “Bad for the player, Good for the game?”

That was about balance/game design, not about whether to prioritize tournament integrity, or live balance.

Uhhh, I know. However, I think it clearly is applicable in both scenarios. Do you see why? Catering to 10 players or fixing a meta for the entire pvp scene?…

fugazi.5139:

Fun fact: WvW is garb. People should not be forced to play it because it has the most attention.

Fun fact: Apparently, more players than all of GW1 together think it’s not “garb”. Where’s your minority now?!

ColinJohanson.2394:

when we launched with almost no features in PvP.

Yeah, great way to start successful mmo, ay? ….

Only if you had all the features we have atm from launch. Gw2 PvP would be quite more popular.

ColinJohanson.2394:

People tend to play in different places in Gw2, hot join, solo and team queue and custom arenas combined account for a much larger population than GvG/Team/Random/HA arena ever had most of the time.

ColinJohanson.2394:

Extra fun fact: the population of WvW who plays any given week regularly is larger than the entire population of all of Gw1 the game any given week for a large chunk of the games lifespan. Just want to put things in perspective, Gw1 was amazing, but there is a reason we made Gw2.

Colin sorry, but that is an obvious spin that does not make your argument appear in a good light to anyone with a skeptical mind. Does “most of it’s life” include the post-2007 years, when PvP didn’t receive content updates anymore (except for the introduction of Codex Arena)? Because if yes, that is indeed the majority of it’s lifespan, but it’s also obviously the period long past it’s prime. You can’t reasonably average it including the many years when PvP, and indeed the rest of the game, only received scant attention in favor of GW2 development, and when the game’s sales were long in it’s “long tail” phase, unlike with current GW2 still hot on the shelves. How did the situation of weekly PvPers look like in 2006? Maybe 2007?

What are the numbers on the tPvP and soloqueue population compared to HA (which was basically tPvP’s equivalent) in 2013 and 2006 respectively?

What is the ratio? GW1 had, what, 1.5 million unique accounts in it’s entire lifetime? Maybe 2? GW2 has double that already. If it has purely larger numbers due to a much bigger installment base that does not say much about the status of PvP in-game.

What is the time spent within PvP by each one of those players? Are 10 people playing for one hour a week as representative of a healthy PvP scene as five people playing for 10 hours a week? What if a large part of the 10 do not regularly PvP at all, maybe don’t for months, versus those 5 people doing it every evening of the week?

The focus on numbers versus playerbase satisfaction (and passion, or the lack thereof) is frankly discomforting in any case.

(apparently you can’t write “az 5” with an S substituting the Z without activating the overzealous censor because the 5 somehow counts as a S and the space doesn’t get registered. Utterly ridiculous.)