Guild Wars 2

Im sorry but ive tried to be patient and i dont see any changes. The PvP in this game is making me dislike the game all together. Come to the forums to find an explanation, upcoming plans.. hell anything at this point and all i get is 300 thieves trying to justify this cheezy bullkitten? Are you serious? Even worse than that there are actual posts on this very page proclaiming there are zero problems at all with GW2 pvp system…….? ….for real?

Im sorry but these rainbows and sunshine forum trolls that try to defend the most terrible and unbalanced parts of an online multiplayer games need to be dealt with or flat out ignored. They absolutely destroy communities and pollute developer mindsets and both are devastating to a game. It doesnt take a genious to see there are some fundamental problems in this pvp system. Its not just one class or this or that. Theres a list, hell theres several if you read actual posts on this forum with a spoonful of truth or feedback.

Certain classes and skills need to be balanced, immediately. Im not a schmuck. I know there are files and files of data on the outcome of more than likely millions of spvp and tpvp games in your office. You are flat out ignoring balance for some unknown reason and its getting old. Its been old. Numbers need to be adjusted. Now.

Last but not least, i know this is a B2P game and once the game is purchased you dont really give a crap if im a happy customer or not but leaving PvP as you have it as of 10/1/12 is just absolutely pathetic. You have this amazing beautiful PvE side and then a total flip to an unbalanced laggy, hacker infested zerg fest with unbalanced classes and zero balance adjustments.

Seems we are second rate customers for Arena Net. We lost competition against PVE hamsters again. It is pretty sad concerning what kind of game GW1 was.

Just focus PvE for a while…sPvP is failure for now. Real PvP is at WvWvW, where your gear have more point than at sPvP.

And srsly, stop crying at thief. Make one, play one then create opinion. Thief is most balanced class for now (yes Im playing one, and i still can accept nerff backstab if it must to be done), mobility + nice dmg + no hp at all. The problem are guardians and mesmers, those classes can fight 1vs3 and win! U cant do that as thief, necro, ranger, ele… etc.

Made a level 1 theif. Played it. Crit 3x higher than I have on any other class. It’s squishy, true, but I 4shot people that aren’t specced defensively and I have ~2 hours experience on thief.

I’ve been trying to PVP with my main elementalist with average success. Made a mesmer tonight. Put points into illusion and clones traits. Equipped staff and scepter+torch. Spent 0 time practicing.

And I roll people without even trying. There really is very little effort on my part. I spawn illusions and clones. They hit hard, have a good amount of life. A bunch of my abilities stealth myself, switch myself with clones. I basically summon kitten and LOS everything. There was some Gladiator thief that tried to 1v1 me for my FIRST fight. We both went into downed state but of course my clones kept pinging him. I eventually healed and could finish him.

You shouldn’t be able to do this. The game is broken right now. You can either
a) play a broken class
b) leave and come back when things are balanced
c) continue to struggle through your current UP class and fight on uneven field

It doesn’t matter at all that everyone’s gear is the same when the classes are so unbalanced.

In fairness to AN, I would rather them fix actually bugs before balancing. But they could have launched with better balance between classes. Or, ya know, hire separate people to handle both balance and bugs at the same time.

Already said they want people to learn counters and get used to the game more before they start doing hot fixes and messing with numbers, games only been out a little longer than a month.

That’s not to say numbers won’t be tweaked, but it could be a simple case of people l2p their class.

Sounds like butthurt instead of any valid arguments.

Give it some time geez. It’s been out for a month. I am also waiting for first big balance and pvp oriented patch but i don’t exaggerate things and take them out of dark place.

I think the big thing is the skills difference, you got some classes you could just make a vanilla lvl 1 char, pick a build from the internet and use some button bashing in a match and get the top score. without knowing even what skills do what.
If you listen to a pro players stream, they just say for example, we need a mesmer for this set up, make one and half an hour later are just as good as any other pro mesmer player. As they laugh how easy it is.
Same for pub games, you’ll never be top tier but its way to easy to be at the top 3 of the scoreboard with little to no class/pvp knowledge.
I know the game is young and eventually it will get patched, but I play this for my enjoyment and atm there is little of it in spvp. I do enjoy higher lvl Tpvp but without ranking system is gets boring fast, it’s getting rofl stomped or doing it ourselves. With close and interesting games few in between.

With how things are currently mesmer is easy because he can get the job done with little effort.

I only ever met 1 decent team in tPvP so far.

I stopped reading at the word “thief”.

I don’t play a thief, I tried them out for maybe an hour just to see their mechanics. If that’s the reason you are sick of PvP, good riddance, there are a lot more important issues to work out and tweak than the fact you are clueless how to avoid Heartseeker.

“Certain classes and skills need to be balanced, immediately.”

Would you like to now add specifically what these classes are and what the skills are? Or is the majority of what you’re writing based upon what you read on forums after you got killed by a pistol whip thief several times in hot join?

^

Seriously? ArenaNet already said they are looking from their own end. There was even a video on Twitch the other day of a couple devs playing the game. They play their own game, so they dont listen to every crybaby too dumb to dodge, or every one playing the specified class that people are QQ’ing about.

You dont like people who learn, adapt, and counter you? Too lazy to learn other classes and counter them? Go back to PvE and fight scripted boss battles… As a thief the only people I feel bad for are the elementalist (atleast in their downed state, a tank elementalist is more of a pain to deal with than tanky guardians).

All I see is inexperienced people who run glass cannon specs with no defensive utility skills or cc removal utilities, get insta-gibbed and then complain about x class being overpowered. Every class has a counter its just lack of effort on your part. I wont deny that some classes are more easy to play than others, but that doesn’t mean they are stronger. For example, a bad elementalist can be close to useless but a skilled one can beat several opponents at once or delay them for a very long time making enemy team lose a lot of points.
This is a team based game based around completing map objectives not a team deathmatch.

I really couldn’t care less about thieves; if I die to them it is usually because something is on cd … but that it the surreal world of 8vs8. 5vs5 is a completely different world. I can’t seem to make any sense out of 8vs8 … why is it even here?
And the scenarios … comparing to GW1, they are extremely boring. Why is it even called “Guildwars” anymore? The very thing that defined GW1 isn’t even here anymore.
And ANet wanted to break out of the “holy-trinity” … but by doing that, they just created another. They wanted to break out of the auto-attack … but rangers … I know it isn’t auto-attack per definition, but it might as well be.
There are just so many things, that I can’t agree with … important things. I seriously miss stuff like the old HoH and … guild wars. Representing your guild in a battle vs another guild … it was epic.

Have you played an elementalist? Please explain what utilities they have which would enable them to “beat several opponents at once”?

While the game certainly should not be balanced for 1v1, 1v1 strength does have implications in a game with as few kitten players per team. And, as the game currently stands, 1v1 is extremely imbalanced. It’s not the same imbalance you’d find in WoW (rock-scissors-paper), it’s one or two classes totally dominate most of the other classes/specs.

Also, not only do mesmers bring arguably the strongest 1v1, their group utility is amazing. I would trade any elementalist elite for any of the mesmer elites (besides whirlpool – which is comically the strongest example of an IWIN button on the most UP class)

Staff-elementalists actually can do that. And even D/D-ones can do that if build correctly, although I definitely prefer staff.

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/65220-op-elementalist-my-khylo-trebuchet-killer-point-neutralizer-build/

That is one example, that I started out as starting-point for my treb-build … it is a place to start.

Bravo – seems like a pretty good build. I don’t think I would have fun with a treb killer role but it’s cool it works for you.

But, I asked beating 2 people at one. Or even one person at once >.< Your AOE fields all have very obvious effects with very low damage. And, while you bring a lot of combo fields, you have close to no combo finishers (2 if I’m right?). It’s a good support build, but that’s all I see being successful for ele; basically forcing an entire class to build a certain way for success.

The only thing that can kill me 1v1 atm is very pro pro mesmer (almost non existent) or very pro pro condi contro necro.

Everything else is food

/engineer

balance changes didnt even begin, because there are more important things to do…

and they are working on ranked system of SPVP…

what more you want? it will just take some time but at least we can play more then once per month (hello beta tests)…

@Ouroboros: Well yeah: Ele is really nice for support. I won’t say 1vs1 doesn’t matter, because in the current setup it does … a lot even. But a support-role is definitely also a viable way to go around. I think we are limited to some extent but very viable as bunker-builds or support. Wonder why you say, we can’t take something down in 1vs1? … It just takes time.

That elementalist giving the build does not have issues with mesmers … which I suppose is something? They don’t even bother me, and I can’t really say I am pro yet.

And yeah … 2 blast finishers (and ofc stoning and shockwave as projectile). But that is again our class: We come with a lot of fields, it is in others hands to utilize them … which I am ok with, even if it is wasted on pugs.

Hey, I normally don’t post much on the forums, but upon seeing this I just had to comment.

I’m just sick of the obscene amount of whine on these forums, especially that regarding balance in this game; because it’s my personal belief that Arenanet did an excellent job with releasing a game with this amount of balance and polish.
While I do agree there is still work to be done regarding class balance; I just don’t believe its as titanic as some people make out to be.
I also would like to point out to people that this game is more so about balancing builds, instead of classes; because each class has several builds available to them. Like I can have problems vs a good ele when I run a phantasm build, but I have a much easier time vs that same ele running a shatter build.

All I can say is find a build that works for you, try out different classes and just try and have fun with the game.

@Xeph: First things first: Nice to see you posting.
Apart from that: Balance is way more tricky, than I initially thought, and I tend to agree with you, that it is really ok.

Have you considered this: Even when you post something negative, it can sound worse, than it really is? And if someone is complaining, it is really a cry out for help (if they refuse to be helped it is their own fault though)? Maybe it isn’t as bad, as it sounds, is all I am saying

I think a lot of the whine regarding balance is just frustration … and knowledge/practice can be the key to beat that. I suppose vids and guides go a long way in that regard. The game is very different from other games, and if you weren’t in beta, you really have something to learn. There is a plethora of ignorance at display on these forums … both in regards to the game, but also in the way people approach frustrated players. I am not perfect … but countering hate with hate (not referring to you) is just not constructive, and neither is countering frustration with “l2p”.

Anyway: I would love to hear more about your shatter-build … think I have poked you before.

@Poxxia: Firstly thanks for the reply.
I understand that the situation has been blown way out of proportion, and that people tend to over exaggerate the situation; but whats really ticking me off is the fact that most of these arguments are without base or research.

I would suggest that people take their time and do proper research on all the classes; because so far I have found this game to be more balanced than others, yes in some regards certain builds are completely countered by others, but thats part of the fun of pvp.
I just hope people could see past the same things, and look at the bigger picture, balance is still in a good place and there are no more than a few tweaks needed, and as time goes by more and more people will realize this.

Regarding my build, just add me to friends and whisper me in game at anytime and I would be happy to oblige.

@Xeph: Sure will. Thanks. And I agree … if only more would write “?” instead of “!”

I’m unsure of the FUD level of what I’m going to say, but this game was released quite raw. Anet are working their kitten off, but when PvE bugs run rampant, one can’t focus on adding new functionality (major skill changes are functionality that require extensive testing). I can imagine the PvP transforming in a great update next year, when they finally add proper ranking and ladders, the big tournaments, observer mode and so on they’ve stated that they want to have. Then the metagame really kicks off and the regular players get to see what’s really worth buffing/nerfing. Right now even the devs might only have statistics to rely on.

@Xeph:
With all due respect, I think just saying the game is fine isn’t very effective, especially considering you are playing a mesmer (like you mentioned). Why don’t you guys make a team comp without using mesmer/guardian/thief and beat other good teams? Then you post it in youtube and we can all actually believe balance is fine.

I want to say l2p, and someone’s butt hurt. But I have to agree on a few points. Also nerf guardians. God kitten :P

I think the game is fine too.. I was angry in the beginning just like you, but once you swallow those tears and learn how to play you will notice the balance

Nargaroth.1482:

I think the game is fine too.. I was angry in the beginning just like you, but once you swallow those tears and learn how to play you will notice the balance

Yeah defo, I could use a few nerfs here and there but overall the game is pretty well balanced tbh. Once you learn the game =)

HasuGhost.5672:

@Xeph:
With all due respect, I think just saying the game is fine isn’t very effective, especially considering you are playing a mesmer (like you mentioned). Why don’t you guys make a team comp without using mesmer/guardian/thief and beat other good teams? Then you post it in youtube and we can all actually believe balance is fine.

Instead of just generalizing the whole balance issue, like your doing at the moment; how about you point out what it is that you find unbalanced regarding pvp and I would be happy to answer that, because what your asking me to do here would require a lot of time for me to type up.
Regardless I will generalize, firstly I have been playing mesmer since bwe1 and I played it through out that time I’ve spent in Guildwars 2, not because its broken but because I enjoy the concept of the class, do I find mesmer to be broken?
Yes and no, mesmer is a very strong 1v1 profession and thus it puts it under the limelight, every player would like to be able to win their 1v1’s and thus a lot of focus has been put on the mesmer class, but at the moment the changes needed to make mesmer balanced are actually very minor. (Reduce damage on phantasms, Reduce damage on shatter and remove the immobilize from the illusion swap on the sword.)

Regarding removing thief, guardian and mesmer from our team comp, I’m sorry but I couldn’t help but laugh a little at that statement, because we happen to run every class in our team comp between now and than, do we always run with a thief (no), do we always run with a mesmer (no) and same as true about guardian.
Do we find that it is the most effective team comp, in our case yes. Although I have seen many successful teams run without one of each of those classes.
What is it that your trying to get at ?

@Xeph

I wasn’t implying you picked mesmer because it’s overpowered. It just happens to be a little over the top (like you said yourself), especially in maps like Kyhlo. Also, I’m pretty sure you know that most good (known) teams run mesmer/thief/guardian (or at least two of these) +2. Do you happen to know any good team that runs a comp without none of those 3? I’m talking about running it on a “serious” game, not just for testing purposes.

I know teams that run without a mesmer or a thief; but currently guardian is a must have for any team, because they are the best bunker class at the moment, does that make them overpowered; not really. All I am asking if for you to clarify what is it that you find imbalanced.
Also contrary to popular belief its not always the wisest decision to put a mesmer on treb in khylo; as the game advances more and more people will come to see that.
It’s also very difficult to fit that criteria your looking for, most teams at the moment are going for the safe choice classes and no one has started to really branch out with the class selection.
Regardless you didn’t answer my question in a direct mannor, what is it that your trying to get at, be more specific in what it is you find broken and completely over the top, that its toppling balance.

What I’m trying to say is if you have some classes that are clearly the best in fulfilling some roles and therefore are needed in a team comp, aren’t they overpowered? You just gave an example in your last post. The guardian is the best bunker, period. Aren’t they a little overpowered in comparison to other classes in this role? I think if some classes are just mandatory in a team comp, the balance isn’t just there yet.

Many people seem to reject that this is a game about builds and roles as opposed to professions. The balance is tight enough that there’s no profession that is irreplaceable. Contrary to popular belief, thieves don’t deal more damage than others can hope to, Guardian isn’t always the most resilient and mesmer illusions don’t give an insurmountable advantage. Many things are just harder to play, less widely known or just never played outside tournaments. You don’t lose to unbeatable builds, you lose to better teamwork, better individual players or simply not having found your personal playstyle yet.

because they are the best bunker class at the moment, does that make them overpowered;

That is the definition of overpowered. Being the best at something where noone gets close. So yes, yes it does.

uncop.5073:

Many people seem to reject that this is a game about builds and roles as opposed to professions. The balance is tight enough that there’s no profession that is irreplaceable. Contrary to popular belief, thieves don’t deal more damage than others can hope to, Guardian isn’t always the most resilient and mesmer illusions don’t give an insurmountable advantage. Many things are just harder to play, less widely known or just never played outside tournaments. You don’t lose to unbeatable builds, you lose to better teamwork, better individual players or simply not having found your personal playstyle yet.

We must have different opinions because i feel that GW2 in no way rewards skilled play enough to NOT be rolling the easier, more effective classes. I just dont see this game really scaling on a persons skill as most of the people that believe the game is fine and balanced.

I say the game is fairly simple and unbalanced, you say ‘we just havent found our personal playstyle yet’ and that guardians and mesmers are simply better individual players. Did i suddenly increase my individual skill when i went from ele to engi and now doing 3x higher auto attack damage and being more effective with less buttons? ok.

GankSinatra.2653:

because they are the best bunker class at the moment, does that make them overpowered;

That is the definition of overpowered. Being the best at something where noone gets close. So yes, yes it does.

No, best is not the same as overpowered. Guardian is not the best because it dominates every single aspect of the bunker role, it’s the best because they have reliable tools for every kind of situation. Always nerfing whatever is the best just creates a race to the bottom, if the best thing isn’t overwhelmingly so.

HasuGhost.5672:

What I’m trying to say is if you have some classes that are clearly the best in fulfilling some roles and therefore are needed in a team comp, aren’t they overpowered? You just gave an example in your last post. The guardian is the best bunker, period. Aren’t they a little overpowered in comparison to other classes in this role? I think if some classes are just mandatory in a team comp, the balance isn’t just there yet.

Okay here is where you make your argument completely unreasonable; there is always going to be that one class that excel’s in certain field, to ask Arenanet to make all classes be able to bunker aswell as guardian is next to impossible, albit that doesn’t mean that other classes cannot also fulfill the bunker role because engineer, necromancer and warrior all have very viable bunker builds, but guardian has better tools at their disposal. This good sir is what is known as a meta. Also a quick tip necromancers are very well equipped to kill bunker guardians or soften them up for their other team mates to take out.

There is always going to be a meta and people will always take what they believe best fulfills a certain role they require, for example no one is going to take a guardian into a roaming role, because frankittenhey just can’t do it and don’t have the necessary tools, whilst an ele is better equipped to take on that job, does that in your mind make ele overpowered ?

I find that what your looking for Arenanet to do it next to impossible, or simply they should delete all classes and keep just one.

uncop.5073:

GankSinatra.2653:

because they are the best bunker class at the moment, does that make them overpowered;

That is the definition of overpowered. Being the best at something where noone gets close. So yes, yes it does.

No, best is not the same as overpowered. Guardian is not the best because it dominates every single aspect of the bunker role, it’s the best because they have reliable tools for every kind of situation. Always nerfing whatever is the best just creates a race to the bottom, if the best thing isn’t overwhelmingly so.

They’re still the best arent they? Maybe it doesnt DOMINATE all areas, but it is the BEST in almost every kind of situation, according to your words. That still sounds OP to me, no matter what semantics are used as the underlying reason. They are simply by far the most effective in the most situations, that kinda reeks of OP to me when compared to others.

And buffing everyone else up is more of a problem. We would be much better off with classes playing like elementalists than if everyone had a one-shot skill on a 2 minute cooldown. Should we be giving everyone quickness, full hp aoe heals, permanent retaliations and multiple ways to stop a stomp? I very much disagree.

TTK is already a tad too high…this game needs some toning down if you ask me, not toning everything up. And yes Xeph, guardians are becoming part of the meta. Which is what Arenanet is looking at, and use that as grounds for balancing.

There is no need for a more support oriented class to always be the best choice at defending a point. One that is more focused on attacking could be just as efficient as the fight goes to 2v1 quicker, but it isnt like this atm.
And at your point about eles, if all roamers were slowly becoming just eles, yes it WOULD be kitten overpowered even if we couldnt point defend or do anything else at all. I would be calling my class broken and be advocating to get it nerfed and fixed.
If a class has only 1 role and sucks at all others, it most like failed at being a well balanced class. If mesmers own pvp but suck at pve, its a broken class. If guardians are nr1 point defender but cant do anything else, its a broken class.

class 1 – point defense: good. Roaming: good. Support: average. Good class.
class 2 – point defense: the best. Roaming: bad. Support: bad. Broken class.

I really dont see why guardians and mesmers are so happy with their classes. They are far too good at certain parts of the game and horrible at others. Both equally bad for the game if you ask me. Why wouldnt we all be working towards making these classes fit better in all parts of the game, instead telling eachother its fine to suck at 1 place but own at the other.

GankSinatra.2653:

uncop.5073:

GankSinatra.2653:

because they are the best bunker class at the moment, does that make them overpowered;

That is the definition of overpowered. Being the best at something where noone gets close. So yes, yes it does.

No, best is not the same as overpowered. Guardian is not the best because it dominates every single aspect of the bunker role, it’s the best because they have reliable tools for every kind of situation. Always nerfing whatever is the best just creates a race to the bottom, if the best thing isn’t overwhelmingly so.

They’re still the best arent they? Maybe it doesnt DOMINATE all areas, but it is the BEST in almost every kind of situation, according to your words. That still sounds OP to me, no matter what semantics are used as the underlying reason. They are simply by far the most effective in the most situations, that kinda reeks of OP to me when compared to others.

And buffing everyone else up is more of a problem. We would be much better off with classes playing like elementalists than if everyone had a one-shot skill on a 2 minute cooldown. Should we be giving everyone quickness, full hp aoe heals, permanent retaliations and multiple ways to stop a stomp? I very much disagree.

TTK is already a tad too high…this game needs some toning down if you ask me, not toning everything up.

Quick question, apart from having retaliation toned down (which I completely agree with.) What other things do you want nerfed/removed, because as far as I’m concerned many classes have several ways to stop a stomp; as a mesmer I have 2 stuns, a daze, chaos storm (with some rng luck) and moa.
Engineer has (Flamethrower and Big bomb)
Elementalists (Updraft, Earthquake and Tornado)

The full hp aoe heal, is very easy to counter and the guardian can be cc’d to stop it; if he has popped stability than remove the condition using several different boon removals.

Guardians are strong, but they are not a god class and by no means do I find them overpowered; the only thing I wish for is a nerf to retal and everything else is currently in line.

Xeph.4513:

HasuGhost.5672:

What I’m trying to say is if you have some classes that are clearly the best in fulfilling some roles and therefore are needed in a team comp, aren’t they overpowered? You just gave an example in your last post. The guardian is the best bunker, period. Aren’t they a little overpowered in comparison to other classes in this role? I think if some classes are just mandatory in a team comp, the balance isn’t just there yet.

Okay here is where you make your argument completely unreasonable; there is always going to be that one class that excel’s in certain field, to ask Arenanet to make all classes be able to bunker aswell as guardian is next to impossible, albit that doesn’t mean that other classes cannot also fulfill the bunker role because engineer, necromancer and warrior all have very viable bunker builds, but guardian has better tools at their disposal. This good sir is what is known as a meta. Also a quick tip necromancers are very well equipped to kill bunker guardians or soften them up for their other team mates to take out.

There is always going to be a meta and people will always take what they believe best fulfills a certain role they require, for example no one is going to take a guardian into a roaming role, because frankittenhey just can’t do it and don’t have the necessary tools, whilst an ele is better equipped to take on that job, does that in your mind make ele overpowered ?

I find that what your looking for Arenanet to do it next to impossible, or simply they should delete all classes and keep just one.

I never said I wanted every class to be able to fulfill every role equally. But let’s focus on the bunker issue. Let’s assume that the best bunkers as of now are guardian (1st) and engineer (2nd). Why would anyone pick eng instead of guardian?

You mention the meta. In my understanding, meta could only help this if there is some kind of hard counter to guardians that aren’t also hard counters to engineers. We would need a team comp that deals better with guardian as a bunker than with engineer as a bunker. Would you elaborate a bit in this topic?

@GankSinatra One class being better then another task is not called being overpowered. Its called asymmetric design. Always in that kind of design, one setup is better then another in some specific situation. It just stems from definition of ‘asymetric design’ and pure math.

And currently no class is best at every possible role in tpvp. There are minor balancing issues with most of the classes, but there hardly is anything that is game breaking.

The only logical argument you could make about this balance, is that in current (perceived) meta tiers, all the roles are fulfilled by mesmers/thieves/guardians so much better then other professions so as to make them unusable. Which is blatantly false, and anyone claiming that clearly doesn’t play tpvp against good players.

“Let’s assume that the best bunkers as of now are guardian (1st) and engineer (2nd). Why would anyone pick eng instead of guardian?”

Because asymetric design doesn’t compare Y and Z by placing them into X, but by placing them into [X,…,W]. This isn’t 1vs1, but its 5vs5, and while there will be some situations in which guardians will be best, there will also be situations in which engineers will be better. He doesn’t say: guardians are the best bunkers. He says: “Currently in meta, guardians are considered best bunkers”. That’s not the same.

@GankSinatra: A Guardian is a strong node control defender, whilst an engineer excels at being on a side node because they have great mobility and can move across the map if needed, whilst a bunker Guardian is restrained to a certain node, and if that node is avoided by the other team in favor of capturing side nodes than the guardian can find himself quickly rendered useless.
A Guardian depends on people showing up to his node and engaging him, if a team chooses to ignore, the Guardian than that is another issue all in it’s self.
I understand that is an unorthodox strategy, but we have perviously used it at times to great success.

A bunker Guardian is heavily countered by a bunker Engineer, who depends on bombs to deal his damage and has as much control as the guardian; although he isn’t as tanky, but than the guardian is forced to tank the bombs among the various different knock backs and control spells the engineer has to offer.
There is a counter to a bunker Guardian, but people are not yet familiar with all aspects of the game as I stated before, and what might seem to be broken to you right now, might not be in the near future, even without patch changes.

Xeph.4513:

GankSinatra.2653:

uncop.5073:

GankSinatra.2653:

because they are the best bunker class at the moment, does that make them overpowered;

That is the definition of overpowered. Being the best at something where noone gets close. So yes, yes it does.

No, best is not the same as overpowered. Guardian is not the best because it dominates every single aspect of the bunker role, it’s the best because they have reliable tools for every kind of situation. Always nerfing whatever is the best just creates a race to the bottom, if the best thing isn’t overwhelmingly so.

They’re still the best arent they? Maybe it doesnt DOMINATE all areas, but it is the BEST in almost every kind of situation, according to your words. That still sounds OP to me, no matter what semantics are used as the underlying reason. They are simply by far the most effective in the most situations, that kinda reeks of OP to me when compared to others.

And buffing everyone else up is more of a problem. We would be much better off with classes playing like elementalists than if everyone had a one-shot skill on a 2 minute cooldown. Should we be giving everyone quickness, full hp aoe heals, permanent retaliations and multiple ways to stop a stomp? I very much disagree.

TTK is already a tad too high…this game needs some toning down if you ask me, not toning everything up.

Quick question, apart from having retaliation toned down (which I completely agree with.) What other things do you want nerfed/removed, because as far as I’m concerned many classes have several ways to stop a stomp; as a mesmer I have 2 stuns, a daze, chaos storm (with some rng luck) and moa.
Engineer has (Flamethrower and Big bomb)
Elementalists (Updraft, Earthquake and Tornado)

The full hp aoe heal, is very easy to counter and the guardian can be cc’d to stop it; if he has popped stability than remove the condition using several different boon removals.

Guardians are strong, but they are not a god class and by no means do I find them overpowered; the only thing I wish for is a nerf to retal and everything else is currently in line.

Right well we can look at what makes guardians and engineers so good as point defenders compared to the others. I think arena net has far better tools for that than we do, and i am certainly not some balancing mastermind that has an answer for everything. But we can assume that the best defenders will have:

- Big gap in survivability so they can stay at a point longer.
- more ways than others to nullify incoming burst.
- more ways to knock people out of the circle
- easier time ressing allies.

We could have guardians be the best at point 2 and 3. Engis at points 1 and 4. Etc. For examples sake. If a class is better at more points than another, it is comperatively OP.
That is how i would balance out these classes but we really dont have the tools to make very informed decisions. Thats why i only touched upon retaliation, because 1. it is fairly braindead and effective at the same time, and 2. to show that buffing everyone up to perm retal / access to quickness would be bad for the game.

I think its cool that the lowest hp class can be the best defender, but also that it is kind of broken since it appears that the base stats do not matter enough. I believe their low hp was arena nets way of trying to make sure Guardians wouldnt be the best choice always, but it seems to have failed because their abilities more than make up for, what should be, a disadvantage to keep classes in line. Maybe they are a bit too effective in the skills they can use to offset their low hp. In other words, being so good at points 2 and 3 that the weakness at point 1 is totally nullified. Some would even argue they are amazing at all 4 points.

Since there will always be a best class (always) we can at least try to make classes best at different things. Are we low on heals and good resses? lets grab a guardian. Are we a bit vulnerable to burst and could use more knockbacks? Lets grab an engineer then. Do they have lots of conditions instead and we need cleansing and higher damage? Lets take a point defend ele. Thats how i’d like to see it.

Rogacz.9865:

“Let’s assume that the best bunkers as of now are guardian (1st) and engineer (2nd). Why would anyone pick eng instead of guardian?”

Because asymetric design doesn’t compare Y and Z by placing them into X, but by placing them into [X,…,W]. This isn’t 1vs1, but its 5vs5, and while there will be some situations in which guardians will be best, there will also be situations in which engineers will be better. He doesn’t say: guardians are the best bunkers. He says: “Currently in meta, guardians are considered best bunkers”. That’s not the same.

I understand your line of thought and I agree with that. But here is the tricky question: What is the team comp deals better with a guardian bunker than with an engineer bunker? Or even better: Is there such a team comp? If there is no such comp, can we all agree that guardian is the best bunker, period, and therefore overpowered?

@HasuGhost You have an example of particularly valid strategy against bunker guardians presented in Xeph’s post. Also, not all compositions require counter composition. Sometimes just being able to adapt your tactic is more important. Somehow, im not seeing those 3 bunker guardians + 2 roamers team in tournaments. Just the fact that you (or me or anyone else) can’t come up with counter to such a setup, doesnt mean its OP immediately.

Rogacz.9865:

@GankSinatra One class being better then another task is not called being overpowered. Its called asymmetric design. Always in that kind of design, one setup is better then another in some specific situation.

Thats what i’d like. But it doesnt really play out like this atm, does it? Or do you think guardians are only effective in certain specific situations right now? Would you pick a point defend ele or necro because it would fit better against the enemies line up? Or still rather always take the Guardian because it performs best in most situations?

I guess we agree on your statement, but disagree on what point the game is at now.

I find them effective in several roles on different maps, both offensive and defensive. And I find them managable in both, either by denying their boons, or by controlling their attacks. At my level, which is not the highest, I win as much as I loose (primarily mesmer here). Never seen roaming guardian though – even though guardian guildmate claimed they can be done.

Xeph.4513:

Quick question, apart from having retaliation toned down (which I completely agree with.) What other things do you want nerfed/removed, because as far as I’m concerned many classes have several ways to stop a stomp; as a mesmer I have 2 stuns, a daze, chaos storm (with some rng luck) and moa.
Engineer has (Flamethrower and Big bomb)
Elementalists (Updraft, Earthquake and Tornado)

The full hp aoe heal, is very easy to counter and the guardian can be cc’d to stop it; if he has popped stability than remove the condition using several different boon removals.

Guardians are strong, but they are not a god class and by no means do I find them overpowered; the only thing I wish for is a nerf to retal and everything else is currently in line.

Nerfs i can throw off the top of my head are:
- Phase Retreat should lose the Leap finisher, OR nerf Ethereal field. It also should not move you while you’re stunned, knocked down or immobilized.
- Phantasmal Duelist should have a big chunk of it’s damage converted to conditions or something to make pistol not be the best burst offhand too.
- Guardians honestly feel too balanced to be so good, there are no simple nerfs except for Retaliation. They’re good no matter the weapons, no matter the utility skills. Remove the knockback on shield 5? Simplest way to hit the great toolbox.
- Take Thieves’ Guild down a notch. Effect-wise it’s nice, but the long duration throws the ball on the defender to kill the thieves rather than on the thief to capitalize on their help.
- Either make Stun breakers break Immobilize or otherwise make Devourer Venom more counterable by people who don’t explicitly build for it.

Other professions have quite a few sleeper imbalanced skills, but I don’t know them well enough to comment too much on them.