Guild Wars 2

I know this has been brought up before, but I’d like to bring it to light again.

A necromancer’s bar in party UI is uniquely misleading.
As it stands, short of having team coms, it is impossible to tell how much HP allied necros have when they enter deathshroud. This makes it really hard to play efficiently with them.

I would like to suggest a simple idea:

• add an in-game option to show HP bar text
• change the color of HP bar when ally is in DS

example attached..
explanation of example:

• whether or not my allied necro is in DS, i only care about how much HP he has, not how much life force he has (since liferoce can’t be regened [except by unholy sanctuar—yea, yea])
• and i definitely need to know just by looking at his bar if he’s in DS or not (hence the different shades of green)

Edit: sorry if the text is hard to read. For clarity, both bars read the same number (the remaining hitpoints, neither should ever show remaining life force)

second example

100% agreed

Evan Lesh.3295:

I think the best option would be to replicate the targeting UI where you can see both health bars at once. Question is: will they fit? :P

The party UI doesn’t exactly take up a lot of space atm, even in PvE where you get the full portrait. I can’t imagine it’d take up that much real-estate, certainly not enough to cause crowding.

Evan Lesh.3295:

I think the best option would be to replicate the targeting UI where you can see both health bars at once. Question is: will they fit? :P

Can’t it be squeezed down to a nice thin green bar?

Just change the color of the HP bar in the party window like the OP showcased Evan.

That would suffice.

why there are no postings from arenanet guyz for weeks and this acandis guy post 2 threads in 10 min and both get answer in first 3-5 posts from a dev?

just a question

Half grey, half green. Would be easy to understand.

Evan Lesh.3295:

I think the best option would be to replicate the targeting UI where you can see both health bars at once. Question is: will they fit? :P

Disagree with solution – this information would be most helpful if readily available. Having to target them would be very annoying and add something else for me to do while in already busy fights.

I think the solution has a few requirements – always see both health bars (we should know if the necro is about to die if he comes out of DS). Also should show how much DS they have left. Optional goodness would be it showing us when they are in DS (nice to have, but if i see the number droping or not I can make assumptions).

Evan Lesh.3295:

I think the best option would be to replicate the targeting UI where you can see both health bars at once. Question is: will they fit? :P

Second bar under the current bar wouldn’t take that much space (it can be smaller than the normal bar)

Romek.4201:

why there are no postings from arenanet guyz for weeks and this acandis guy post 2 threads in 10 min and both get answer in first 3-5 posts from a dev?

just a question

Because he not only put forth a constructive idea for a UI change, but supplied supportive imagery to better explain his ideas. Unlike 90% of these forums that are just composed of unproductive rants to remove this or nerf that instead of presenting a possible change with supportive information that could better the situation instead of destroying it. It’s how the real world works.

Seiishizo.7162:

Second bar under the current bar wouldn’t take that much space (it can be smaller than the normal bar)

Yea, something like this would be nice.

Revised drawing for clarity (bars aren’t to exact scale):

Example explained:

• The small bar shows how much alternate hit points my allied necro has when they toggle DS.
  • When he’s in shroud, small bar shows his actual health // when he’s out of shroud it shows life force.

Evan Lesh.3295:

I think the best option would be to replicate the targeting UI where you can see both health bars at once. Question is: will they fit? :P

when in doubt – make it fit?

but honestly, i got the same issue with my ranger pets. I’d love to see the conditions/boons it got on it above its healthbar.
Its one of those things that are needed for pets (goes for necro pets too, but in a lesser manner as theirs are optional not mandatory)….

You could achieve both of these things by doing something very simple;

Add 1/4th sized conditions floaters over the pet HP bar

Make the whole necromancers “avatar” and HP bar get a azure-blue/greenish tint and the HP bar completely green to show that the necro has entered DS. Simply put, overlay the DS HP bar over the standard one (like in good old 2D shooter bosses).

Acandis.3250:

Yea, something like this would be nice.

Revised drawing for clarity (bars aren’t to exact scale):

Example explained:

• The small bar shows how much alternate hit points my allied necro has when they toggle DS.
  • When he’s in shroud, small bar shows his actual health // when he’s out of shroud it shows life force.

I think if you did this and also added a boon-like indicator next to their name, the same one that Necromancer’s see on their bar already, then it’d be perfect. You could look over, very obviously see the Necromancer was in DS, what their HP was and LF, and it takes very little space overall.

Prysin.8542:

but honestly, i got the same issue with my ranger pets. I’d love to see the conditions/boons it got on it above its healthbar.
Its one of those things that are needed for pets (goes for necro pets too, but in a lesser manner as theirs are optional not mandatory)….

You could achieve both of these things by doing something very simple;

Add 1/4th sized conditions floaters over the pet HP bar

Make the whole necromancers “avatar” and HP bar get a azure-blue/greenish tint and the HP bar completely green to show that the necro has entered DS. Simply put, overlay the DS HP bar over the standard one (like in good old 2D shooter bosses).

An option to see all summoned creature’s healthbars on my party UI just underneath my own party would work just fine for me. Ranger pets could have it just above the current pet bar, but for summoned creatures the area would be too small there, so if it just went on the left side with the rest of my allies that would be awesome.

Evan Lesh.3295:

I think the best option would be to replicate the targeting UI where you can see both health bars at once. Question is: will they fit? :P

Can we get customizable UI ala Guild Wars? None of that would ever be an issue again :P

Acandis.3250:

Seiishizo.7162:

Second bar under the current bar wouldn’t take that much space (it can be smaller than the normal bar)

Yea, something like this would be nice.

Revised drawing for clarity (bars aren’t to exact scale):

Example explained:

• The small bar shows how much alternate hit points my allied necro has when they toggle DS.
  • When he’s in shroud, small bar shows his actual health // when he’s out of shroud it shows life force.

This is perfect, except don’t swap the bars. Maybe have the DS bar shown as grey when they’re in HP form, and have it bright green when DS is active. And/or go with an icon like bhawb suggest.

Evan Lesh.3295:

I think the best option would be to replicate the targeting UI where you can see both health bars at once. Question is: will they fit? :P

Evan, I’ve been playing necro since release, and on nearly every other match one of my teammates will think I’m almost dead and start shouting in panic over voice comms. The opposite has also happened, where I get focussed, go into DS and shout for help, but my teammates see the full bar of DS on the party window and get confused.

The only sensible option is TO ONLY SHOW ACTUAL HP on the party window, whether you’re in DS or not! DS is not a sustainable state for a pvp necro, only a very few niche builds are designed to stay in it for long periods of time. Plus you have no stunbreaks, no escapes, no condi cleanses, and no heals while in DS, so if you’re at low health you’re still nearly dead even if you have a full LF bar. So if you’re nearly dead when you pop into DS, you’re still nearly dead while in it, and you’ll be as good as dead when you get out (especially with the current bug that damages you twice if you get knocked out by damage!!).

Please, please, please, just revert the party UI to show our actual HP.

I’m actually a little confused as to why the party shows it at all. It makes sense to see it if you’re fighting a necro, but… it is, ultimately, a profession mechanic – not critical information. I don’t see mesmer clones, ranger pet HP, warrior adrenaline, thief initiative, or engineer kits – and I only see ele attunements and guardian attunements in the expanded party UI because they function like buffs.

Why do I have to see death shroud? This is an inconsistency in game design, not just a little quirk.

If you did go the route of adding the the UI rather than subtracting… while I don’t like that idea because the UI is already too busy, I would like to see this display information for ALL professions. Most are straightforward enough, just a gauge(necro/war/thief/ranger) or series of blips (mesmer); for the others:

1. Elementalist/Guardian: Mesmer-like blips; if lighted, attunement/virtue can be used. Dark, it’s on cooldown. (Good for setting up healing cycles.)
2. Engineer: A little harder to pin down, but mini-gauges for turrets might not be bad? I can’t think of anything for the entire class.

Kadj.6725:

I’m actually a little confused as to why the party shows it at all. It makes sense to see it if you’re fighting a necro, but… it is, ultimately, a profession mechanic – not critical information. I don’t see mesmer clones, ranger pet HP, warrior adrenaline, thief initiative, or engineer kits – and I only see ele attunements and guardian attunements in the expanded party UI because they function like buffs.

Why do I have to see death shroud? This is an inconsistency in game design, not just a little quirk.

If you did go the route of adding the the UI rather than subtracting… while I don’t like that idea because the UI is already too busy, I would like to see this display information for ALL professions. Most are straightforward enough, just a gauge(necro/war/thief/ranger) or series of blips (mesmer); for the others:

1. Elementalist/Guardian: Mesmer-like blips; if lighted, attunement/virtue can be used. Dark, it’s on cooldown. (Good for setting up healing cycles.)
2. Engineer: A little harder to pin down, but mini-gauges for turrets might not be bad? I can’t think of anything for the entire class.

Small bar or one that swaps colors for necros would be good, but the stuff you’re suggesting is like completely unimportant.
Thanks but no thanks.

Kadj.6725:

I’m actually a little confused as to why the party shows it at all. It makes sense to see it if you’re fighting a necro, but… it is, ultimately, a profession mechanic – not critical information. I don’t see mesmer clones, ranger pet HP, warrior adrenaline, thief initiative, or engineer kits – and I only see ele attunements and guardian attunements in the expanded party UI because they function like buffs.

Why do I have to see death shroud? This is an inconsistency in game design, not just a little quirk.

Quite! Completely inconsistent with how the party window works for everyone else! My theory is it was an inadvertent change from when they made the target UI display the double health bar when the necro is in DS, and they never got round to fixing it.

And, let’s not forget, not just annoyingly inconsistent, but ACTIVELY MISLEADING TO YOUR TEAMMATES!

One world, One health bar! :p

Kadj.6725:

If you did go the route of adding the the UI rather than subtracting… while I don’t like that idea because the UI is already too busy, I would like to see this display information for ALL professions. Most are straightforward enough, just a gauge(necro/war/thief/ranger) or series of blips (mesmer); for the others:

1. Elementalist/Guardian: Mesmer-like blips; if lighted, attunement/virtue can be used. Dark, it’s on cooldown. (Good for setting up healing cycles.)
2. Engineer: A little harder to pin down, but mini-gauges for turrets might not be bad? I can’t think of anything for the entire class.

Because your teammates don’t need to know these at a glance. One of the biggest issues is that Deathshroud is the only mechanic that can actively hurt your team by being used without them knowing. How many thousands of times have eles seen a Necros HP get low and panic water heal/peel for them? How many thousands of times has a guardian panicked and popped massive CDs to protect the Necromancer from… their own degeneration?

If we could receive heals through Deathshroud and people only ever saw our HP, this wouldn’t be a particularly big deal. But Necromancer is the only profession with two HP bars, and one of them that completely prevents the other from working.

please fix the bug where deathshroud stops regen working. And the same with heals received from team mates.

There is no reason regen shouldn’t work somehow with life force. Either to regen life force or to regen health whilst in death shroud.

Its a 2 year old bug which is lame.

Lordrosicky.5813:

please fix the bug where deathshroud stops regen working. And the same with heals received from team mates.

There is no reason regen shouldn’t work somehow with life force. Either to regen life force or to regen health whilst in death shroud.

Its a 2 year old bug which is lame.

Pretty sure this isn’t a bug, and actually intended design, and Im pretty sure Jon Sharp said this in a podcast (SoTG?) that it would be way too op to regen or heal DS.

Bhawb.7408:

How many thousands of times has a guardian panicked and popped massive CDs to protect the Necromancer from… their own degeneration?

story of my life +1

Darnis.4056:

Lordrosicky.5813:

please fix the bug where deathshroud stops regen working. And the same with heals received from team mates.

There is no reason regen shouldn’t work somehow with life force. Either to regen life force or to regen health whilst in death shroud.

Its a 2 year old bug which is lame.

Pretty sure this isn’t a bug, and actually intended design, and Im pretty sure Jon Sharp said this in a podcast (SoTG?) that it would be way too op to regen or heal DS.

Yeah, i also think he said that somewhere, but i think it is stupid design to have a profession mechanic that essentially makes a traitline (bloodmagic) and healing in general useless half the time…

And i am not sure if it would be really op atleast to allow the siphon life traits and the 1 point in spite to work while in Ds.

Darnis.4056:

Small bar or one that swaps colors for necros would be good, but the stuff you’re suggesting is like completely unimportant.
Thanks but no thanks.

It can be less important for some professions(mainly the Engineer suggestion), but for others, it could allow for much better collaboration. Guardians can rotate Virtue of Courage, warriors could feasibly set up burst attacks together(eh, could help somewhere maybe), mesmers could… do… something, I guess. Guardian and Elementalists can set up Virtue of Resolve/Water attunement rotations… And you can heal ranger pets, keeping your ranger’s DPS and utility happy! All without a need for the crutch of teamspeak or unbelievably fast typing.

Again though, I’d stress that I would prefer to have none of the above, but I don’t think the idea is completely unimportant; really, it’s just a matter of utilizing the tech they would have to put in for necros, and therefore justify the dev’s time of doing so.

It’s easier to do a QoL change if it actually benefits the entire playerbase, not just the subsection that plays or plays with necromancers.

Evan Lesh.3295:

I think the best option would be to replicate the targeting UI where you can see both health bars at once. Question is: will they fit? :P

i dont belive what i see.

@Kadj it’s already in game, just needs to be replicated from its current place over to the party ui.

emikochan.8504:

@Kadj it’s already in game, just needs to be replicated from its current place over to the party ui.

Sometimes easier said than done. As it is, you remember how we used to not be able to see wvw information in overflows and such? That sounded easy to us too, but apparently it was a huge undertaking. Game programming (especially with the UI) can be pretty messy!

Also, another criticism I thought of with regards to the original suggestion:

Colorblindness exists, and is more common than you might think.

It isn’t a matter of seeing things in black and white, but instead “Those two HP bars look exactly the same to me.” It’s a tricky thing to develop games around.

Kadj.6725:

Also, another criticism I thought of with regards to the original suggestion:

Colorblindness exists, and is more common than you might think.

It isn’t a matter of seeing things in black and white, but instead “Those two HP bars look exactly the same to me.” It’s a tricky thing to develop games around.

Yup! Red-Green colourblind person here too. When I see the DS double-healthbar in my target overlay, the only way I can tell which is HP and which is Life Force is because one is under the other – colour-wise they look exactly the same to me. Putting the double healthbar in the tiny, cramped, party UI would make my retinas bleed trying to squint to tell which is which. It’s an idea that’ll make things even worse than they are now.

Bhawb.7408:

One of the biggest issues is that Deathshroud is the only mechanic that can actively hurt your team by being used without them knowing. How many thousands of times have eles seen a Necros HP get low and panic water heal/peel for them? How many thousands of times has a guardian panicked and popped massive CDs to protect the Necromancer from… their own degeneration?

Exactly! I’ve had a mesmer teammate burn his portal to come help me AND pop his Mass Invisibility when he thought I was low! And I was at nearly-full health, my target was already going down! This is a daily occurence for me, happens in almost every match when I have decent teammates who look out for each other.

And please don’t tell me “oh, voice comms”. We use voice comms, but GW2 is a very fast-paced game and sometimes when you see someone’s health bar drop you react instinctively before he even shouts for help! Plus you can’t reliably know that he didn’t actually try to shout for help but the voice ducking cut it out, or, if they’re using push to talk, that they were dodging and mashing keys too frantically to hit the push2talk button.

If we could receive heals through Deathshroud and people only ever saw our HP, this wouldn’t be a particularly big deal. But Necromancer is the only profession with two HP bars, and one of them that completely prevents the other from working.

A debate for a different time, perhaps, but I agree with that too

tl;dr PLEASE change party window to only display HP for necros! No-one needs to know our DS.

Agreed to above. I don’t need to know a necrosDS d If I did just show it above his head when he’s in it.

A smaller health bar below the normal one with an icon that pops up while the necro is in death shroud would probably be the best solution. That solves the colorblindness issue and provides all of the necessary information (Is Necro in Death Shroud? What are their health/life force levels?).

Also, any change to UI for PvP needs to happen in all areas across the game.