Guild Wars 2

let me guess, burtnick mains condition revenant?

dominik.9721:

let me guess, burtnick mains condition revenant?

No, i main power rev but i roll condi myself if the enemy team is flooded with em as i am completely useless vs condi on my power build. Guess again

DEATHsCLAW.1978:

condi necro countered condi rev pretty easily anyways and had a good shot against power shiro too so there is no big change.. the thing what counters reapers though are those evasive thief builds who can simply burst you when you go out of shroud whithout getting a single hit from reaper

if you played reaper against a halfway decent daredevil you would know..

so reaper even has its counter

Do you know the pain of playing reaper and see how a warr jumps on you and procs double stance?

Axialbloom.8109:

Oslaf Beinir.5842:

Bring a friend and stunlock the necro… it isnt so hard right?

Spontaneous Destruction spam did the same thing no? along with 2 other traits on low cooldwon. Rev also revomes boons so why not try having your boons removed too.

How do you stunlock 3-4 Necros? Because that will be the new meta.

Never. Necromancers don’t stack.

All I know is that, even as a Signet Reaper, I still see pretty much everyone with a million boons all the time. 1 more boon off on every third attack is going to be nothing, except in the most drawn out of fights where we are meant to be really good anyway.

Atharian.7092:

All I know is that, even as a Signet Reaper, I still see pretty much everyone with a million boons all the time. 1 more boon off on every third attack is going to be nothing, except in the most drawn out of fights where we are meant to be really good anyway.

Boon removal wouldn’t be so bad, but it’s boon CORRUPTION on the auto attack. Meaning there’s gonna be times when you randomly fear people with your autoattack, or chill them, or cripple them, etc.

Necro is already 99% meta and i see 1-2 of them in virtually every team im on. This is especially true in the case of MM due its absurd amount of passive damage/heals from minions, and the upcoming changes are likely to make them gods.
That having been said i find it hard to cry for Revs… i played on in PvP/WvW because the classes i want to play arent good enough… and i could do better on a Rev with minimal knowledge than i could classes i knew well so… it needs to get knocked down a pegs or two.
Necro will be a hard counter to a Rev in many cases, but every class should have one… right now, you dont.

Floplag.4032:

Necro is already 99% meta and i see 1-2 of them in virtually every team im on. This is especially true in the case of MM due its absurd amount of passive damage/heals from minions, and the upcoming changes are likely to make them gods.
That having been said i find it hard to cry for Revs… i played on in PvP/WvW because the classes i want to play arent good enough… and i could do better on a Rev with minimal knowledge than i could classes i knew well so… it needs to get knocked down a pegs or two.
Necro will be a hard counter to a Rev in many cases, but every class should have one… right now, you dont.

Hard counters are generally a bad idea (look at Diamond Skin) and the fact that Rev’s are getting nerfed, are still riddled with bugs and issues, and their counters are getting buffed (Necros and Thieves) is not a good thing.

Malchior.5732:

Hard counters are generally a bad idea (look at Diamond Skin) and the fact that Rev’s are getting nerfed, are still riddled with bugs and issues, and their counters are getting buffed (Necros and Thieves) is not a good thing.

What you just described is the meta getting nerfed and the bottom feeders getting buffed… sounds kinda like balance, how is this a bad thing?

Perfect so teams will stop using 2,3 brokenants.

Floplag.4032:

Malchior.5732:

Hard counters are generally a bad idea (look at Diamond Skin) and the fact that Rev’s are getting nerfed, are still riddled with bugs and issues, and their counters are getting buffed (Necros and Thieves) is not a good thing.

What you just described is the meta getting nerfed and the bottom feeders getting buffed… sounds kinda like balance, how is this a bad thing?

Because all you did was reverse the roles. You know what might happen? Thief completely removes all roamers from the meta and Necro removes any heavy-boon class from play (especially Revenant).

How is that good? Better would have been to reduce power of the dominating classes and see what happens.

You know what else might happen? Thief and Necro nerfs later on with their “counters” getting buffs
Effectively doing nothing but cycling classes.

People in this thread seem to like balance going from one extreme to the other.

Malchior.5732:

Floplag.4032:

Malchior.5732:

Hard counters are generally a bad idea (look at Diamond Skin) and the fact that Rev’s are getting nerfed, are still riddled with bugs and issues, and their counters are getting buffed (Necros and Thieves) is not a good thing.

What you just described is the meta getting nerfed and the bottom feeders getting buffed… sounds kinda like balance, how is this a bad thing?

Because all you did was reverse the roles. You know what might happen? Thief completely removes all roamers from the meta and Necro removes any heavy-boon class from play (especially Revenant).

How is that good? Better would have been to reduce power of the dominating classes and see what happens.

You know what else might happen? Thief and Necro nerfs later on with their “counters” getting buffs
Effectively doing nothing but cycling classes.

Im still failing to see a problem here… cycling meta SHOULD happen…. not the same crap every time. And this meta is horriffcally bad and boring anyway.
No class should stay meta forever, eles, and no class should be non-viable in any game mode ideally.
A lot of things might happen… but they would all be preferable to this garbage meta in my mind

Floplag.4032:

Malchior.5732:

Floplag.4032:

Malchior.5732:

Hard counters are generally a bad idea (look at Diamond Skin) and the fact that Rev’s are getting nerfed, are still riddled with bugs and issues, and their counters are getting buffed (Necros and Thieves) is not a good thing.

What you just described is the meta getting nerfed and the bottom feeders getting buffed… sounds kinda like balance, how is this a bad thing?

Because all you did was reverse the roles. You know what might happen? Thief completely removes all roamers from the meta and Necro removes any heavy-boon class from play (especially Revenant).

How is that good? Better would have been to reduce power of the dominating classes and see what happens.

You know what else might happen? Thief and Necro nerfs later on with their “counters” getting buffs
Effectively doing nothing but cycling classes.

Im still failing to see a problem here… cycling meta SHOULD happen…. not the same crap every time. And this meta is horriffcally bad and boring anyway.
No class should stay meta forever, eles, and no class should be non-viable in any game mode ideally.
A lot of things might happen… but they would all be preferable to this garbage meta in my mind

The part that you aren’t getting is that they a are changing the current meta to another one that will be just as bad. And like you said no class should be non-viable but that’s exactly what will happen with the revenant.

Varezenem.2813:

Floplag.4032:

Malchior.5732:

Floplag.4032:

Malchior.5732:

Hard counters are generally a bad idea (look at Diamond Skin) and the fact that Rev’s are getting nerfed, are still riddled with bugs and issues, and their counters are getting buffed (Necros and Thieves) is not a good thing.

What you just described is the meta getting nerfed and the bottom feeders getting buffed… sounds kinda like balance, how is this a bad thing?

Because all you did was reverse the roles. You know what might happen? Thief completely removes all roamers from the meta and Necro removes any heavy-boon class from play (especially Revenant).

How is that good? Better would have been to reduce power of the dominating classes and see what happens.

You know what else might happen? Thief and Necro nerfs later on with their “counters” getting buffs
Effectively doing nothing but cycling classes.

Im still failing to see a problem here… cycling meta SHOULD happen…. not the same crap every time. And this meta is horriffcally bad and boring anyway.
No class should stay meta forever, eles, and no class should be non-viable in any game mode ideally.
A lot of things might happen… but they would all be preferable to this garbage meta in my mind

The part that you aren’t getting is that they a are changing the current meta to another one that will be just as bad. And like you said no class should be non-viable but that’s exactly what will happen with the revenant.

I get what you are saying, i simply disagree. You are talking about one isolated matchup that does nothing in my mind but create a counter for a class that currently has none. How is that not viable?

Floplag.4032:

Varezenem.2813:

Floplag.4032:

Malchior.5732:

Floplag.4032:

Malchior.5732:

Hard counters are generally a bad idea (look at Diamond Skin) and the fact that Rev’s are getting nerfed, are still riddled with bugs and issues, and their counters are getting buffed (Necros and Thieves) is not a good thing.

What you just described is the meta getting nerfed and the bottom feeders getting buffed… sounds kinda like balance, how is this a bad thing?

Because all you did was reverse the roles. You know what might happen? Thief completely removes all roamers from the meta and Necro removes any heavy-boon class from play (especially Revenant).

How is that good? Better would have been to reduce power of the dominating classes and see what happens.

You know what else might happen? Thief and Necro nerfs later on with their “counters” getting buffs
Effectively doing nothing but cycling classes.

Im still failing to see a problem here… cycling meta SHOULD happen…. not the same crap every time. And this meta is horriffcally bad and boring anyway.
No class should stay meta forever, eles, and no class should be non-viable in any game mode ideally.
A lot of things might happen… but they would all be preferable to this garbage meta in my mind

The part that you aren’t getting is that they a are changing the current meta to another one that will be just as bad. And like you said no class should be non-viable but that’s exactly what will happen with the revenant.

I get what you are saying, i simply disagree. You are talking about one isolated matchup that does nothing in my mind but create a counter for a class that currently has none. How is that not viable?

Revenant does have counters; they simply aren’t used for one reason or another at the moment.
Now that those counters are more viable due to certain classes being nerfed, and the Revenant itself also receiving nerfs, those counters are also BUFFED.
All that will happen is that the roles are reversed and we’ll get an equally bad meta in the opposite direction.

We have a good chance of going back to a nuke meta where people are just bursted down or we could enter a condi meta. In either one, Thief will determine if a roamer is viable at all or not due to superior mobility, high spike damage, good sustained damage, and now with all the tools Daredevil has added (if you thought Power Revenant was bad…).
If you don’t see problems here, then I can only assume this is your first competitive game.

Malchior.5732:

Floplag.4032:

Varezenem.2813:

Floplag.4032:

Malchior.5732:

Floplag.4032:

Malchior.5732:

Hard counters are generally a bad idea (look at Diamond Skin) and the fact that Rev’s are getting nerfed, are still riddled with bugs and issues, and their counters are getting buffed (Necros and Thieves) is not a good thing.

What you just described is the meta getting nerfed and the bottom feeders getting buffed… sounds kinda like balance, how is this a bad thing?

Because all you did was reverse the roles. You know what might happen? Thief completely removes all roamers from the meta and Necro removes any heavy-boon class from play (especially Revenant).

How is that good? Better would have been to reduce power of the dominating classes and see what happens.

You know what else might happen? Thief and Necro nerfs later on with their “counters” getting buffs
Effectively doing nothing but cycling classes.

Im still failing to see a problem here… cycling meta SHOULD happen…. not the same crap every time. And this meta is horriffcally bad and boring anyway.
No class should stay meta forever, eles, and no class should be non-viable in any game mode ideally.
A lot of things might happen… but they would all be preferable to this garbage meta in my mind

The part that you aren’t getting is that they a are changing the current meta to another one that will be just as bad. And like you said no class should be non-viable but that’s exactly what will happen with the revenant.

I get what you are saying, i simply disagree. You are talking about one isolated matchup that does nothing in my mind but create a counter for a class that currently has none. How is that not viable?

Revenant does have counters; they simply aren’t used for one reason or another at the moment.
Now that those counters are more viable due to certain classes being nerfed, and the Revenant itself also receiving nerfs, those counters are also BUFFED.
All that will happen is that the roles are reversed and we’ll get an equally bad meta in the opposite direction.

We have a good chance of going back to a nuke meta where people are just bursted down or we could enter a condi meta. In either one, Thief will determine if a roamer is viable at all or not due to superior mobility, high spike damage, good sustained damage, and now with all the tools Daredevil has added (if you thought Power Revenant was bad…).
If you don’t see problems here, then I can only assume this is your first competitive game.

lol… wow disagreeing with some of you on the high horse is kinda fun.

Look you can spin it all you want but you are guessing, we dont even know the final notes yet. Either way, Rev needs a kick in the teeth, its FAR too OP, everyone in the game knows this.

As to the meta, this meta is destructive… anytime bunkers are the standard its bad. It creates boring matches, even less fun to play, and extremely unexciting times in a game trying to actually create itself as an e-sport. Any meta you could describe would be preferable than this one from almost any standpoint… literally any.

No, this is not my first, far from it.. sounds more like you just dont want your toys taken away.

The funny part to me is that they are nerfing the easier one to avoid in the DH. As to the rest, im looking forward to the changes and the Necros as the most OP meta in the history and meta, lol

Floplag.4032:

Necro will be a hard counter to a Rev in many cases, but every class should have one… right now, you dont.

Necros have counters though, you just don’t see them since their counters are not in the current meta. Warriors and daredevil, with scrapper to a lesser extent. DH also does well against necros although I wouldn’t call DH a counter.

The meta is changing, which is a good thing, the problem with the bunker meta was that it was stagnant and ceased evolving after chronobunker settled in.

Malchior.5732:

Alekt.5803:

Malchior.5732:

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Not only Revs, Eles and Guardians too rely almost exclusively on boons as defense.

At the very least Ele has a bunch of Condi Cleanses and Guardians have some as well.
Revenant has a laughable amount of condition cleansing.

Not sure which condition clear you are referring to for elementalist when Healing Rain cast time is one second and an half for a whooping 2 condition cleansed (if traited) every 3 seconds for 6 seconds, with no easily accessible condi clears other than this (unless ice field is blasted, if traited, and projectile finishers on water, if traited).

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Water
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Wave_
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invigorating_Torrents
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Overload_Water
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Rain
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Wave
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magnetic_Wave
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Soothing_Disruption
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Fire
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ether_Renewal
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stop,_Drop,_and_Roll
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Burning_Fire

Add to that Diamond Skin and compare to:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Purifying_Essence
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Renewing_Wave
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Eluding_Nullification
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Channel
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Soothing_Stone (Cleanses AFTER Healing)

Don’t even come here and tell me Elementalist lacks Condition clears.

Reapers are getting more condition applications by a lot. I don’t play Diamond Skin and it is extremely hard to keep the condition clear to a supportable level. Yes, you could go Arcane Water Tempest, but then, what good will you do to the team; damage will be non-existant; and lets forget about tanky elementalist without proper amulets. Elementalist is a light armored class with lowest tier of life.

Given staff, Cleansing Wave competes against Aquamancer’s training and Soothing Disruption. Aquamancer means 30 seconds cooldown instead of 45 (or 12cr/min vs 8cr/min, if traited). Overload Water needs preperation and synergizes wrongly with Cleansing Wave, increasing the cooldown of the attunement to water (also synergizes wrongly with elemental attunement)…

I don’t give a single care about the condition clear of Revenants. You know what? Have fun with the Reaper condition spam, I don’t want to spend more time on this useless subject.

Floplag.4032:

Malchior.5732:

Floplag.4032:

Varezenem.2813:

Floplag.4032:

Malchior.5732:

Floplag.4032:

Malchior.5732:

Hard counters are generally a bad idea (look at Diamond Skin) and the fact that Rev’s are getting nerfed, are still riddled with bugs and issues, and their counters are getting buffed (Necros and Thieves) is not a good thing.

What you just described is the meta getting nerfed and the bottom feeders getting buffed… sounds kinda like balance, how is this a bad thing?

Because all you did was reverse the roles. You know what might happen? Thief completely removes all roamers from the meta and Necro removes any heavy-boon class from play (especially Revenant).

How is that good? Better would have been to reduce power of the dominating classes and see what happens.

You know what else might happen? Thief and Necro nerfs later on with their “counters” getting buffs
Effectively doing nothing but cycling classes.

Im still failing to see a problem here… cycling meta SHOULD happen…. not the same crap every time. And this meta is horriffcally bad and boring anyway.
No class should stay meta forever, eles, and no class should be non-viable in any game mode ideally.
A lot of things might happen… but they would all be preferable to this garbage meta in my mind

The part that you aren’t getting is that they a are changing the current meta to another one that will be just as bad. And like you said no class should be non-viable but that’s exactly what will happen with the revenant.

I get what you are saying, i simply disagree. You are talking about one isolated matchup that does nothing in my mind but create a counter for a class that currently has none. How is that not viable?

Revenant does have counters; they simply aren’t used for one reason or another at the moment.
Now that those counters are more viable due to certain classes being nerfed, and the Revenant itself also receiving nerfs, those counters are also BUFFED.
All that will happen is that the roles are reversed and we’ll get an equally bad meta in the opposite direction.

We have a good chance of going back to a nuke meta where people are just bursted down or we could enter a condi meta. In either one, Thief will determine if a roamer is viable at all or not due to superior mobility, high spike damage, good sustained damage, and now with all the tools Daredevil has added (if you thought Power Revenant was bad…).
If you don’t see problems here, then I can only assume this is your first competitive game.

lol… wow disagreeing with some of you on the high horse is kinda fun.

Look you can spin it all you want but you are guessing, we dont even know the final notes yet. Either way, Rev needs a kick in the teeth, its FAR too OP, everyone in the game knows this.

As to the meta, this meta is destructive… anytime bunkers are the standard its bad. It creates boring matches, even less fun to play, and extremely unexciting times in a game trying to actually create itself as an e-sport. Any meta you could describe would be preferable than this one from almost any standpoint… literally any.

No, this is not my first, far from it.. sounds more like you just dont want your toys taken away.

The funny part to me is that they are nerfing the easier one to avoid in the DH. As to the rest, im looking forward to the changes and the Necros as the most OP meta in the history and meta, lol

sigh
You know, you’re not making a case as to whether or not buffing the crap and nerfing the top dramatically is actually a good idea and instead started rambling about Revenant being OP, which I would agree needed changes?
However, by nerfing the Revenant as harshly as they’re planning to do and buffing the counters so dramatically, you will risk making the class completely unviable (which you claim you think shouldn’t be that way, but are now saying it’s fine).

It’s not about me wanting Rev to be OP or not (I don’t), but I’ve been there before: my class simply cannot play at a decent level because it’s just getting destroyed the entire match or is completely useless in comparison to another class and there’s literally nothing I could do about it. Yes, you could argue Revenant did that to some classes, but all we needed were a few shaves and changes, and that’s fine, but then they’re also buffing the biggest counters a LOT.

Yea, yea, we don’t know the final notes (considering Anet’s past, these are probably all the changes and they’re mostly final and going to remain unchanged), but I do know what might potentially happen. I’ve seen what Thief does to weaker classes and I’m almost certain a lot of people wont enjoy their glassier specs completely demolished over and over again. So what do you think will happen when a class has trouble against the most mobile class in the game that also puts out really good damage?

To finish up: dramatically nerfing the top of the meta while also dramatically buffing the bottom (although Necro wasn’t really at the bottom at all) is a great way to end up in the same exact scenario in reverse and we’ve seen Anet do this multiple times already. It’s almost always a mistake.

Alekt.5803:

Malchior.5732:

Alekt.5803:

Malchior.5732:

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Not only Revs, Eles and Guardians too rely almost exclusively on boons as defense.

At the very least Ele has a bunch of Condi Cleanses and Guardians have some as well.
Revenant has a laughable amount of condition cleansing.

Not sure which condition clear you are referring to for elementalist when Healing Rain cast time is one second and an half for a whooping 2 condition cleansed (if traited) every 3 seconds for 6 seconds, with no easily accessible condi clears other than this (unless ice field is blasted, if traited, and projectile finishers on water, if traited).

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Water
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Wave_
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invigorating_Torrents
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Overload_Water
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Rain
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Wave
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magnetic_Wave
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Soothing_Disruption
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Fire
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ether_Renewal
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stop,_Drop,_and_Roll
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Burning_Fire

Add to that Diamond Skin and compare to:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Purifying_Essence
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Renewing_Wave
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Eluding_Nullification
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Channel
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Soothing_Stone (Cleanses AFTER Healing)

Don’t even come here and tell me Elementalist lacks Condition clears.

Reapers are getting more condition applications by a lot. I don’t play Diamond Skin and it is extremely hard to keep the condition clear to a supportable level. Yes, you could go Arcane Water Tempest, but then, what good will you do to the team; damage will be non-existant; and lets forget about tanky elementalist without proper amulets. Elementalist is a light armored class with lowest tier of life.

Given staff, Cleansing Wave competes against Aquamancer’s training and Soothing Disruption. Aquamancer means 30 seconds cooldown instead of 45 (or 12cr/min vs 8cr/min, if traited). Overload Water needs preperation and synergizes wrongly with Cleansing Wave, increasing the cooldown of the attunement to water (also synergizes wrongly with elemental attunement)…

I don’t give a single care about the condition clear of Revenants. You know what? Have fun with the Reaper condition spam, I don’t want to spend more time on this useless subject.

Elementalist has options against conditions, like them or not, so claiming that Elementalists have trouble with them is disingenuous at best.

Malchior.5732:

Floplag.4032:

Malchior.5732:

Floplag.4032:

Varezenem.2813:

Floplag.4032:

Malchior.5732:

Floplag.4032:

Malchior.5732:

Hard counters are generally a bad idea (look at Diamond Skin) and the fact that Rev’s are getting nerfed, are still riddled with bugs and issues, and their counters are getting buffed (Necros and Thieves) is not a good thing.

What you just described is the meta getting nerfed and the bottom feeders getting buffed… sounds kinda like balance, how is this a bad thing?

Because all you did was reverse the roles. You know what might happen? Thief completely removes all roamers from the meta and Necro removes any heavy-boon class from play (especially Revenant).

How is that good? Better would have been to reduce power of the dominating classes and see what happens.

You know what else might happen? Thief and Necro nerfs later on with their “counters” getting buffs
Effectively doing nothing but cycling classes.

Im still failing to see a problem here… cycling meta SHOULD happen…. not the same crap every time. And this meta is horriffcally bad and boring anyway.
No class should stay meta forever, eles, and no class should be non-viable in any game mode ideally.
A lot of things might happen… but they would all be preferable to this garbage meta in my mind

The part that you aren’t getting is that they a are changing the current meta to another one that will be just as bad. And like you said no class should be non-viable but that’s exactly what will happen with the revenant.

I get what you are saying, i simply disagree. You are talking about one isolated matchup that does nothing in my mind but create a counter for a class that currently has none. How is that not viable?

Revenant does have counters; they simply aren’t used for one reason or another at the moment.
Now that those counters are more viable due to certain classes being nerfed, and the Revenant itself also receiving nerfs, those counters are also BUFFED.
All that will happen is that the roles are reversed and we’ll get an equally bad meta in the opposite direction.

We have a good chance of going back to a nuke meta where people are just bursted down or we could enter a condi meta. In either one, Thief will determine if a roamer is viable at all or not due to superior mobility, high spike damage, good sustained damage, and now with all the tools Daredevil has added (if you thought Power Revenant was bad…).
If you don’t see problems here, then I can only assume this is your first competitive game.

lol… wow disagreeing with some of you on the high horse is kinda fun.

Look you can spin it all you want but you are guessing, we dont even know the final notes yet. Either way, Rev needs a kick in the teeth, its FAR too OP, everyone in the game knows this.

As to the meta, this meta is destructive… anytime bunkers are the standard its bad. It creates boring matches, even less fun to play, and extremely unexciting times in a game trying to actually create itself as an e-sport. Any meta you could describe would be preferable than this one from almost any standpoint… literally any.

No, this is not my first, far from it.. sounds more like you just dont want your toys taken away.

The funny part to me is that they are nerfing the easier one to avoid in the DH. As to the rest, im looking forward to the changes and the Necros as the most OP meta in the history and meta, lol

sigh
You know, you’re not making a case as to whether or not buffing the crap and nerfing the top dramatically is actually a good idea and instead started rambling about Revenant being OP, which I would agree needed changes?
However, by nerfing the Revenant as harshly as they’re planning to do and buffing the counters so dramatically, you will risk making the class completely unviable (which you claim you think shouldn’t be that way, but are now saying it’s fine).

It’s not about me wanting Rev to be OP or not (I don’t), but I’ve been there before: my class simply cannot play at a decent level because it’s just getting destroyed the entire match or is completely useless in comparison to another class and there’s literally nothing I could do about it. Yes, you could argue Revenant did that to some classes, but all we needed were a few shaves and changes, and that’s fine, but then they’re also buffing the biggest counters a LOT.

Yea, yea, we don’t know the final notes (considering Anet’s past, these are probably all the changes and they’re mostly final and going to remain unchanged), but I do know what might potentially happen. I’ve seen what Thief does to weaker classes and I’m almost certain a lot of people wont enjoy their glassier specs completely demolished over and over again. So what do you think will happen when a class has trouble against the most mobile class in the game that also puts out really good damage?

To finish up: dramatically nerfing the top of the meta while also dramatically buffing the bottom (although Necro wasn’t really at the bottom at all) is a great way to end up in the same exact scenario in reverse and we’ve seen Anet do this multiple times already. It’s almost always a mistake.

No, thats really not what ive said at all. If thats all you got from my posts i doubt youll get anything further
All you talk about is risks, and possibilities, not facts. We dont know what will happen.
What we do know is that Rev, Temp, Mes bunker in their current state are OP and need adjustments and that Thief and Warrior are under performing and need help.
I dont know how you expect any game to balance but bringing the top down and the bottom up is exactly what they should be doing.
DS tempests counter ANY condi class… your fear is exactly what they face every single match.
We wont know the end results regardless of the amount of theory crafting till we see it in practice, but what we do know is that the current state is broken, boring, and extremely un-entertaining.

Malchior.5732:

Alekt.5803:

Malchior.5732:

Alekt.5803:

Malchior.5732:

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Not only Revs, Eles and Guardians too rely almost exclusively on boons as defense.

At the very least Ele has a bunch of Condi Cleanses and Guardians have some as well.
Revenant has a laughable amount of condition cleansing.

Not sure which condition clear you are referring to for elementalist when Healing Rain cast time is one second and an half for a whooping 2 condition cleansed (if traited) every 3 seconds for 6 seconds, with no easily accessible condi clears other than this (unless ice field is blasted, if traited, and projectile finishers on water, if traited).

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Water
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Wave_
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invigorating_Torrents
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Overload_Water
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Rain
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Wave
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magnetic_Wave
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Soothing_Disruption
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Fire
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ether_Renewal
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stop,_Drop,_and_Roll
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Burning_Fire

Add to that Diamond Skin and compare to:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Purifying_Essence
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Renewing_Wave
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Eluding_Nullification
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Channel
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Soothing_Stone (Cleanses AFTER Healing)

Don’t even come here and tell me Elementalist lacks Condition clears.

Reapers are getting more condition applications by a lot. I don’t play Diamond Skin and it is extremely hard to keep the condition clear to a supportable level. Yes, you could go Arcane Water Tempest, but then, what good will you do to the team; damage will be non-existant; and lets forget about tanky elementalist without proper amulets. Elementalist is a light armored class with lowest tier of life.

Given staff, Cleansing Wave competes against Aquamancer’s training and Soothing Disruption. Aquamancer means 30 seconds cooldown instead of 45 (or 12cr/min vs 8cr/min, if traited). Overload Water needs preperation and synergizes wrongly with Cleansing Wave, increasing the cooldown of the attunement to water (also synergizes wrongly with elemental attunement)…

I don’t give a single care about the condition clear of Revenants. You know what? Have fun with the Reaper condition spam, I don’t want to spend more time on this useless subject.

Elementalist has options against conditions, like them or not, so claiming that Elementalists have trouble with them is disingenuous at best.

He’s not wrong. Once DS is broken, elementalist melts to conditions in a teamght no matter how much condi clear you have.

Listing all the skills that remove conditions (when some of them are complete garbage, too) is a very poor argument for the amount of condi cleanse. A lot of these are competing with each other, so it only proves the class has a choice.

However, it’s not really all that great. As I said, DS is what really keeps ele being able to handle the condition pressure and without it, it’s very difficult since the condition generation is still higher.

Laraley.7695:

As I said, DS is what really keeps ele being able to handle the condition pressure and without it, it’s very difficult since the condition generation is still higher.

Of course condition generation is higher than condition cleanses. If eles (or anyone else) where able to cleanse conditions as fast as conditions where applied then they would be effectively invulnerable to all condition classes.

I guess I will get a heap of angry thief players on me now, but I got my perspective and they have theirs. I guess

Why isn’t thieves working in sPvP? They seems to work just fine every game I am in. As far as I know, the class is a high reward-high risk class. That said, they aren’t supposed to go in and tanking points. They should use high mobility and to work there way around the map, cap undefended points and +1 where its needed.

Dare Devils is, imo, totally broken. How stupid concept isn’t it to make a spec that has insane dodge capability and doing insane damage at the same time?

Not stupid enough like that? Well, lets go on: We add to that with attacking from stealth, so avoiding this onslaught gets way harder- or shadowstep with steal

Still not stupid enough? Let’s add the DD’s Elite with a stomp inbuilt.

Still not stupid enough? Let’s make Basilisk venom unblockable and 10 hits long….

necro had the same ability to rip boons if they wanted too
you never saw necro taking corrupt boon utility . and if they do it rip 3 boons every 15 sec and signet 2 boons every 24 sec
so you main problem is with scepter 3rd attack which is like every 3 sec
if you let the necro just AA freely dont blame him rather you or your team
if he rip your resistance you can re-apply it and pressure him so he wont rip it again
same as now in fact
as rip boon necro i see so many boons fly around like crazy
so now ele will have condi cleanse every sec with DS till 75% hp which is huge buff i think as it will give them enough time for their heal/utilities to recharge to put them above 75% hp

Floplag.4032:

Malchior.5732:

Floplag.4032:

Malchior.5732:

Floplag.4032:

Varezenem.2813:

Floplag.4032:

Malchior.5732:

Floplag.4032:

Malchior.5732:

Hard counters are generally a bad idea (look at Diamond Skin) and the fact that Rev’s are getting nerfed, are still riddled with bugs and issues, and their counters are getting buffed (Necros and Thieves) is not a good thing.

What you just described is the meta getting nerfed and the bottom feeders getting buffed… sounds kinda like balance, how is this a bad thing?

Because all you did was reverse the roles. You know what might happen? Thief completely removes all roamers from the meta and Necro removes any heavy-boon class from play (especially Revenant).

How is that good? Better would have been to reduce power of the dominating classes and see what happens.

You know what else might happen? Thief and Necro nerfs later on with their “counters” getting buffs
Effectively doing nothing but cycling classes.

Im still failing to see a problem here… cycling meta SHOULD happen…. not the same crap every time. And this meta is horriffcally bad and boring anyway.
No class should stay meta forever, eles, and no class should be non-viable in any game mode ideally.
A lot of things might happen… but they would all be preferable to this garbage meta in my mind

The part that you aren’t getting is that they a are changing the current meta to another one that will be just as bad. And like you said no class should be non-viable but that’s exactly what will happen with the revenant.

I get what you are saying, i simply disagree. You are talking about one isolated matchup that does nothing in my mind but create a counter for a class that currently has none. How is that not viable?

Revenant does have counters; they simply aren’t used for one reason or another at the moment.
Now that those counters are more viable due to certain classes being nerfed, and the Revenant itself also receiving nerfs, those counters are also BUFFED.
All that will happen is that the roles are reversed and we’ll get an equally bad meta in the opposite direction.

We have a good chance of going back to a nuke meta where people are just bursted down or we could enter a condi meta. In either one, Thief will determine if a roamer is viable at all or not due to superior mobility, high spike damage, good sustained damage, and now with all the tools Daredevil has added (if you thought Power Revenant was bad…).
If you don’t see problems here, then I can only assume this is your first competitive game.

lol… wow disagreeing with some of you on the high horse is kinda fun.

Look you can spin it all you want but you are guessing, we dont even know the final notes yet. Either way, Rev needs a kick in the teeth, its FAR too OP, everyone in the game knows this.

As to the meta, this meta is destructive… anytime bunkers are the standard its bad. It creates boring matches, even less fun to play, and extremely unexciting times in a game trying to actually create itself as an e-sport. Any meta you could describe would be preferable than this one from almost any standpoint… literally any.

No, this is not my first, far from it.. sounds more like you just dont want your toys taken away.

The funny part to me is that they are nerfing the easier one to avoid in the DH. As to the rest, im looking forward to the changes and the Necros as the most OP meta in the history and meta, lol

sigh
You know, you’re not making a case as to whether or not buffing the crap and nerfing the top dramatically is actually a good idea and instead started rambling about Revenant being OP, which I would agree needed changes?
However, by nerfing the Revenant as harshly as they’re planning to do and buffing the counters so dramatically, you will risk making the class completely unviable (which you claim you think shouldn’t be that way, but are now saying it’s fine).

It’s not about me wanting Rev to be OP or not (I don’t), but I’ve been there before: my class simply cannot play at a decent level because it’s just getting destroyed the entire match or is completely useless in comparison to another class and there’s literally nothing I could do about it. Yes, you could argue Revenant did that to some classes, but all we needed were a few shaves and changes, and that’s fine, but then they’re also buffing the biggest counters a LOT.

Yea, yea, we don’t know the final notes (considering Anet’s past, these are probably all the changes and they’re mostly final and going to remain unchanged), but I do know what might potentially happen. I’ve seen what Thief does to weaker classes and I’m almost certain a lot of people wont enjoy their glassier specs completely demolished over and over again. So what do you think will happen when a class has trouble against the most mobile class in the game that also puts out really good damage?

To finish up: dramatically nerfing the top of the meta while also dramatically buffing the bottom (although Necro wasn’t really at the bottom at all) is a great way to end up in the same exact scenario in reverse and we’ve seen Anet do this multiple times already. It’s almost always a mistake.

No, thats really not what ive said at all. If thats all you got from my posts i doubt youll get anything further
All you talk about is risks, and possibilities, not facts. We dont know what will happen.
What we do know is that Rev, Temp, Mes bunker in their current state are OP and need adjustments and that Thief and Warrior are under performing and need help.
I dont know how you expect any game to balance but bringing the top down and the bottom up is exactly what they should be doing.
DS tempests counter ANY condi class… your fear is exactly what they face every single match.
We wont know the end results regardless of the amount of theory crafting till we see it in practice, but what we do know is that the current state is broken, boring, and extremely un-entertaining.

See, you’re not proving anything either. You’re just assuming these issues will be fixed and that new, worse ones wont be created.
I’m using past similar occurrences to try to find out what will happen. There’s a chance that I’ll be right (notice how I accept that I might be wrong).
The point is that I don’t believe they should make such drastic changes for both sides, because, due to past occurrences, all that happens is that roles are reversed.

I’m just going to end here and wont continue this argument. We can agree to disagree if nothing else.

@ Laraley:
A key point is “team fight”. Why should an Elementalist be able to handle multiple players at the same time in both Condi and Power?
Also, if Condi generation were lowered too much (I’ll agree that it’s a bit too high, but that doesn’t excuse Elementalist whining about lack of options when they have so many to choose from which will obviously compete due to the sheer number), then there’s no point in playing Condi.
Crinn covered this point.

Regardless, Elementalists actually have the ability to have every single utility cleanse up to two conditions on reasonable cooldowns, not including their weapon skills. I feel like that’s more than enough and the only reason you feel forced into Diamond Skin is because of certain overtuned Condi builds (or arguably because players sometimes exaggerate what their bare minimum is in the pursuit of build diversity).

Cam Ron.4170:

Also, if I currently strip 200 boons a game, sith the scepter auto change Ill strip like 215.

If your 3rd aa only hits 15 times a game youre doing something wrong.

Stand The Wall.6987:

Cam Ron.4170:

Also, if I currently strip 200 boons a game, sith the scepter auto change Ill strip like 215.

If your 3rd aa only hits 15 times a game youre doing something wrong.

so the enemy cant move, LOS, dodge, stun you or get out of range? tell me you are diamond/legend

Crinn.7864:

Laraley.7695:

As I said, DS is what really keeps ele being able to handle the condition pressure and without it, it’s very difficult since the condition generation is still higher.

Of course condition generation is higher than condition cleanses. If eles (or anyone else) where able to cleanse conditions as fast as conditions where applied then they would be effectively invulnerable to all condition classes.

You took that out of context. Obviously condition generation will be higher, but for ele it is so high that without DS it melts to condis.

To me as long as an strong class as a heavy counter I’m fine with that.

If necro counter rev and warr/thief/scrapper can counter necro I don’t see anything wrong.

Revenents are FAR too strong, as it stands it is incredibly hard to take them if I run EVERY CORRUPT U CAN, if the changes make it more of a 50/50 matchup instead of 70/30 (in favor of rev) then that would be more balanced.

Firebird.8324:

Revenents are FAR too strong, as it stands it is incredibly hard to take them if I run EVERY CORRUPT U CAN, if the changes make it more of a 50/50 matchup instead of 70/30 (in favor of rev) then that would be more balanced.

I think you just pointed out the problem.

Revenants are too strong. Too much damage, too much sustain.

Solution should be to nerf revenants (and most of other classes), not buff one class so they can have an even match up against them.

Seriously, two classes got trashed, two other didn’t really recieve nerf of buff and then some buffs. That is not how it should be at all. Everything is currently too strong, except warriors. Thieves are not even at such a bad place, they’re fine. If the remaining classes got some reasonable nerfs, we could actually see some balanced game.

Firebird.8324:

Revenents are FAR too strong, as it stands it is incredibly hard to take them if I run EVERY CORRUPT U CAN, if the changes make it more of a 50/50 matchup instead of 70/30 (in favor of rev) then that would be more balanced.

I don’t understand how that’s possible unless you’re just getting yourself killed on purpose or spamming mindlessly.
Revenant has no cleanses (both Power and Condi are EXTREMELY weak to conditions; the latter only if you strip Resistance of course) and will have to eat all the conditions.
I even hopped on my Condi Reaper and not once have I seen a Revenant that stands an iota of a chance.

Malchior.5732:

Alekt.5803:

Malchior.5732:

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Not only Revs, Eles and Guardians too rely almost exclusively on boons as defense.

At the very least Ele has a bunch of Condi Cleanses and Guardians have some as well.
Revenant has a laughable amount of condition cleansing.

Not sure which condition clear you are referring to for elementalist when Healing Rain cast time is one second and an half for a whooping 2 condition cleansed (if traited) every 3 seconds for 6 seconds, with no easily accessible condi clears other than this (unless ice field is blasted, if traited, and projectile finishers on water, if traited).

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Water
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Wave_
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invigorating_Torrents
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Overload_Water
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Rain
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Wave
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magnetic_Wave
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Soothing_Disruption
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Fire
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ether_Renewal
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stop,_Drop,_and_Roll
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Burning_Fire

Add to that Diamond Skin and compare to:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Purifying_Essence
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Renewing_Wave
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Eluding_Nullification
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Channel
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Soothing_Stone (Cleanses AFTER Healing)

Don’t even come here and tell me Elementalist lacks Condition clears.

Does anyone think the fact that Rev has double the amount of Heals, Utilities, and Elites make it a little OP just for that fact?
I used to main thief. I wasn’t winning as much so i switched to Rev. Now it’s hard to lose a match in PVP.

R O C.6574:

Does anyone think the fact that Rev has double the amount of Heals, Utilities, and Elites make it a little OP just for that fact?
I used to main thief. I wasn’t winning as much so i switched to Rev. Now it’s hard to lose a match in PVP.

Do you think Elementalist is OP just for the fact that it has twice as many weapon skills?
I don’t think any seasoned Elementalist would say that, in fact, they would say their skills are over-balanced to compensate.

The Revenant has the same issue. Some skills are very strong (particularly Shiro), but most of the heals are trash, and quite a few utilities are just useless.

The reason you did so well is because Power Revenant currently has quite a low skill floor for success and can do good damage while Thief is squishy and difficult to use, especially in this meta.

good riddance. One single class isn’t supposed to be the best and can beat every other class.

Malchior.5732:

R O C.6574:

Does anyone think the fact that Rev has double the amount of Heals, Utilities, and Elites make it a little OP just for that fact?
I used to main thief. I wasn’t winning as much so i switched to Rev. Now it’s hard to lose a match in PVP.

Do you think Elementalist is OP just for the fact that it has twice as many weapon skills?
I don’t think any seasoned Elementalist would say that, in fact, they would say their skills are over-balanced to compensate.

The Revenant has the same issue. Some skills are very strong (particularly Shiro), but most of the heals are trash, and quite a few utilities are just useless.

The reason you did so well is because Power Revenant currently has quite a low skill floor for success and can do good damage while Thief is squishy and difficult to use, especially in this meta.

I agree that Rev has a low skill floor. Not sure what the deal was with thief since i average 190 points per match, but the team would still lose the match…

R O C.6574:

Malchior.5732:

R O C.6574:

Does anyone think the fact that Rev has double the amount of Heals, Utilities, and Elites make it a little OP just for that fact?
I used to main thief. I wasn’t winning as much so i switched to Rev. Now it’s hard to lose a match in PVP.

Do you think Elementalist is OP just for the fact that it has twice as many weapon skills?
I don’t think any seasoned Elementalist would say that, in fact, they would say their skills are over-balanced to compensate.

The Revenant has the same issue. Some skills are very strong (particularly Shiro), but most of the heals are trash, and quite a few utilities are just useless.

The reason you did so well is because Power Revenant currently has quite a low skill floor for success and can do good damage while Thief is squishy and difficult to use, especially in this meta.

I agree that Rev has a low skill floor. Not sure what the deal was with thief since i average 190 points per match, but the team would still lose the match…

Implying scoreboard indicate anything else but being overtly aggressive in its playstyle and has no relevance as to one’s own usefulness in a game?
I mean one could have double capped, fought off point and finished anyone he came accross and have a very high scoreboard.
Doesn’t mean he contributed to his team in any manner that proved relevant.

Pepsi.8907:

R O C.6574:

Malchior.5732:

R O C.6574:

Does anyone think the fact that Rev has double the amount of Heals, Utilities, and Elites make it a little OP just for that fact?
I used to main thief. I wasn’t winning as much so i switched to Rev. Now it’s hard to lose a match in PVP.

Do you think Elementalist is OP just for the fact that it has twice as many weapon skills?
I don’t think any seasoned Elementalist would say that, in fact, they would say their skills are over-balanced to compensate.

The Revenant has the same issue. Some skills are very strong (particularly Shiro), but most of the heals are trash, and quite a few utilities are just useless.

The reason you did so well is because Power Revenant currently has quite a low skill floor for success and can do good damage while Thief is squishy and difficult to use, especially in this meta.

I agree that Rev has a low skill floor. Not sure what the deal was with thief since i average 190 points per match, but the team would still lose the match…

Implying scoreboard indicate anything else but being overtly aggressive in its playstyle and has no relevance as to one’s own usefulness in a game?
I mean one could have double capped, fought off point and finished anyone he came accross and have a very high scoreboard.
Doesn’t mean he contributed to his team in any manner that proved relevant.

If i’m consistently finishing players and capping far and home, how is that irrelevant?

People realize that the scepter corruption is at the end of a slow, 3s auto chain that is loud and not at all hard to see, right? Obviously, the Necromancer is going to corrupt boons regardless of what you do, but that isn’t the end of the world.
Personally, I think the rev deserves some viable cleanse scattered about its traits. There’s a difference between a class being weak to a playstyle and being helpless against it. It seems like bad balance to me.

Cecilia.5179:

People realize that the scepter corruption is at the end of a slow, 3s auto chain that is loud and not at all hard to see, right? Obviously, the Necromancer is going to corrupt boons regardless of what you do, but that isn’t the end of the world.
Personally, I think the rev deserves some viable cleanse scattered about its traits. There’s a difference between a class being weak to a playstyle and being helpless against it. It seems like bad balance to me.

I sorta agree but I don’t think it should be traits that gives the rev more Condi cleanse. I think giving Jalis some more, like using Rite of the Great Dwarf would cleanse you of conditions and prevent their application for duration of the skill, giving a bit to ventari would also help the healer role, heck maybe make it so standing near the tablet cleanses traits. Making a class reliant on traits for Condi cleanse will end you up in another warrior situation.

Cam Ron.4170:

Currently revenants wearing vipers ammy run around like they are wearing soldiers. It’s disgusting.

Good riddance.

Also, everybody overreacting about the auto boon strip. Itll probably be 1 boon on third attack. Not sure if you realize it but most necros already run very heavy boon strip, and revenants are very viable. Corrupt boon buff is actually more impactful than the scepter auto one imo

This logic right here is why I just bought blades of soul and left GW2 and likely not returning for any expansion here after.

95% of my guild, although PVX is also leaving as well. To make such a balance without community feedback or proper testing truly is a disappointment.

I must ask how many hours have you played rank PVP as a revenant? I can guess not many because you would know this patch is class breaking. So much so that a majority of those that main revenants will likely leave the game or role another class.

Personally I am tired of having to role another class every patch so I am done.

Ok Necro’s gonna be strong. Thief says hi. My prediction is that Thief will be meta. Everything will be jumbled around. Boon-heavy builds will be countered by a Necro, but a Necro is still a Necro. Focus it and it doesn’t do so well anymore. Thief has barely any boons so corrupts are meaningless, and bam. Thief back in the meta. If I’m right… I deserve a freshly baked chocolate chip cookie

I agree, all hail our incoming thief overlords.

Finally Stealthstein is back to my PVP main toon

Wolfs Shadow.7234:

Cam Ron.4170:

Currently revenants wearing vipers ammy run around like they are wearing soldiers. It’s disgusting.

Good riddance.

Also, everybody overreacting about the auto boon strip. Itll probably be 1 boon on third attack. Not sure if you realize it but most necros already run very heavy boon strip, and revenants are very viable. Corrupt boon buff is actually more impactful than the scepter auto one imo

This logic right here is why I just bought blades of soul and left GW2 and likely not returning for any expansion here after.

95% of my guild, although PVX is also leaving as well. To make such a balance without community feedback or proper testing truly is a disappointment.

I must ask how many hours have you played rank PVP as a revenant? I can guess not many because you would know this patch is class breaking. So much so that a majority of those that main revenants will likely leave the game or role another class.

Personally I am tired of having to role another class every patch so I am done.

C’mon dude. I switched to Rev because i was tired of losing to them. Then i was like “Wow, winning is way too easy with Rev.” Rev is OP, anyone saying different just wants to win PVP no matter how unfair it is. It will still be strong after patch, you’ll just have to put down the dorritos while you play!

Good, I cant stand how stupid OP Revenant is ATM.