Guild Wars 2

Their problem is just their higher health pool.

Yeah, I know that Necromancers are kinda OP right now, but not thanks to their survivability, of course.

That it might sound strange, but I’ll explain you why.

Every profession have certain tools to survive a fight. Professions with lower HP pool have the best defensive capabilities and damage mitigation.

Thief has stealth, blind, mobility and evade spamming. Elementalists have lots of heals, any defensive boon, some evades and invulnerabilities. Guardians have heavy armor, lots of blocks, lots of heals and lots of boons.

Professions with average HP pool aren’t in a bad spot too.

Only Necromancers and Warriors have higher HP pool to compensate some lack of inner defensive mechanic. Warriors have no defensive boons, no evades, no invulnerabilities, not so many blocks, no cheap access to vigor and no visual confusion.
Necromancers have no vigor at all, no reliable stability, no combat mobility, no visual confusion, no evades, no blocks and no invulnerabilities. I know they have heavy armor and Death Shroud but, still, those does not prevents the hits to be taken.

It makes sense design-wise that some professions have an higher HP pool to me more like a damage sponge instead of being slippery or tanky.

But is the higher HP pool really worthy? It is, but only if heals scale accordingly.
In fact, the higher HP pool you have, the lower is the effectiveness of your heals.

While on Elementalists 5k heal is way more valuable because you are most likely to get less hits, on Warrior and Necromancer you are capable to take more hits overall (and you WILL take more hits), but your heals still have the same numbers.
This means that as an Elementalist, you are more capable to outheal the damage you take while, on a Necromancer or a Warrior, you will survive way less because you will take more hits and your heals won’t be enough to bring your HP back again to a reasonable amount.

So, in my opinion, any heal should be adjusted to the base health pool of a profession if we want to make an higher HP pool a real advantage. Otherwise, it will be just a placebo for a lack of any other real defensive mechanic.

It has been explained why heals (sustain) based on HP are a bad idea several times. There should be a good explanation somewhere in my post history if you want to read it.

This is not the only issue:
The real issue is for the higher health pool a lot of defensive options are just not there. For example as a warrior you need 1600 toughness to achieve 33% damage reduction. Most other classes have access to the protection boon which does the same. In all our weapon skills we have 1 evade, 2 single blocks, 1 3s block. Conpare that to any thief/ranger weapon set or guardian/ele access to blocks. The last thing is that despite being a melee focused class, we always have to physicallly move to the enemy. That means that there is always a travel time before the warrior engages that allows the enemy to set up their defenses. We don’t have blinks, invis, pulls. During the travel the enemy is also free to snare you, stun/daze etc. because beside your two dodges and whirlwind you’ll most likely take it.

On the warrior side, there aren’t many fixes that you can do to bring him on par with other classes. Maybe something extreme like increasing the movement speed cap on warriors only could bring more viability to the class.

Blackhat.4016:

It has been explained why heals (sustain) based on HP are a bad idea several times. There should be a good explanation somewhere in my post history if you want to read it.

Its actually a good idea. However I would also merge vitality/healing power after its done.

Blackhat.4016:

It has been explained why heals (sustain) based on HP are a bad idea several times. There should be a good explanation somewhere in my post history if you want to read it.

It looks like that you’ve said that making heals scaling with vitality is a bad idea.
What I’m actually proposing here is to make heals scaling with the base health pool, not vitality.
That means that you still needs to stack healing power to have better heals, but higher health pool will be a real advantage.

Well, we still need better heals. Right now, for example, you have a hard time dueling mesmers, simply because Ether Feast outheals all heals we have (in terms of HPS). So they only have to play defensive long enough for base health not to matter anymore. Then they still have the defenses to make up their lower health. That’s why warriors are always in a hurry: if you don’t kill an enemy fast, you are often bound to lose.

Just an example of why heals should be up to max health. Not a percentage, but health should be taken into account while designing heals.

sorrow.2364:

Blackhat.4016:

It has been explained why heals (sustain) based on HP are a bad idea several times. There should be a good explanation somewhere in my post history if you want to read it.

It looks like that you’ve said that making heals scaling with vitality is a bad idea.
What I’m actually proposing here is to make heals scaling with the base health pool, not vitality.
That means that you still needs to stack healing power to have better heals, but higher health pool will be a real advantage.

I was talking about both, base HP and vitality. Those stats are not supposed to increase your sustain. They make you more tanky.

If the heals are really that bad (which is not a core problem for warriors imo) you should increase the scaling with Healing Power (not HP).

Imo it would help much more if some traits/utility skills would be changed to give warriors and necros more sustain. That way they could choose to build for sustain instead of having high sustain because of their HP (which makes more sense and would be balanced).

Yet higher HP pools are a trade off to mobility, and a fair trade off at that I believe.

All classes do have access to some form of leaving combat. Warrior can use skills like rush etc. to get away (you can also trait to remove soft cc), necro has flesh worm and spectral walk. (btw, necro has lifesteal as a class mechanic which when built right can heal as much as any bunker ele walking around with 13k hp yet with 27k + shroud. And not only are you healing, but all that heal is also damage on your opponent) Though you don’t have to rely on these, but then what you take instead you hope it fulfills a role that can risk your death more often. Also I’d have to say that Consume Conditions is my favorite heal skill in the game and one of the most effective/powerful especially in the current meta. Necro may be susceptible to cc but they are no glass canon’s. Also tactically, fear should be used to avoid cc in the first place. You’re able to do damage while the target is feared, fear chains override stunbreakers and you can force pepole off ledges/points. Fear is perhaps the most useful CC’s in the game.

With warrior at least (and balance is slowly getting there) the trade off is you’ve got the base hp of a necro but you’re wearing heavy armor and you’re capable of much higher direct damage. Balance doesn’t work the other way around if you’re able to hit hard and are a walking tank as well. Since the last patch warriors have had a lot more sustain and next patch I think we’re looking at improved healing skills for them so it’s going in the right direction, but you don’t want to make them too efficient at healing otherwise it undermines the base role of the class.

But heals should not scale with HP, they should scale with healing power as they do now. That’s what the stats for. I do feel though that investing in healing power could have a higher payoff that what it does now though.

Blackhat.4016:

I was talking about both, base HP and vitality. Those stats are not supposed to increase your sustain. They make you more tanky.

If the heals are really that bad (which is not a core problem for warriors imo) you should increase the scaling with Healing Power (not HP).

Imo it would help much more if some traits/utility skills would be changed to give warriors and necros more sustain. That way they could choose to build for sustain instead of having high sustain because of their HP (which makes more sense and would be balanced).

More HP doesn’t make you more tanky.
More toughness makes you tanky. More HP without toughness and damage mitigation just makes you last few seconds more, which is useless.

I think that both base values and Healing Power scaling should be increased.
If they just increase the Healing Power scaling, then Warriors and Necromancers are forced to bring healing power to have enough survivability.

Do you mean with sustain the percentage of damage healed?
Then, if you look closer, Elementalists, Thieves and Guardians have an innate better sustain compared to Necromancer and Warriors with base stats, which isn’t that good balance-wise.

Neare.9703:

Yet higher HP pools are a trade off to mobility, and a fair trade off at that I believe.

All classes do have access to some form of leaving combat. Warrior can use skills like rush etc. to get away (you can also trait to remove soft cc), necro has flesh worm and spectral walk. (btw, necro has lifesteal as a class mechanic which when built right can heal as much as any bunker ele walking around with 13k hp yet with 27k + shroud. And not only are you healing, but all that heal is also damage on your opponent). Also I’d have to say that Consume Conditions is my favorite heal skill in the game and one of the most effective/powerful especially in the current meta. Necro may be susceptible to cc but they are no glass canon’s. Also tactically, fear should be used to avoid cc in the first place. You’re able to do damage while the target is feared, fear chains override stunbreakers and you can force pepole off ledges/points. Fear is perhaps the most useful CC’s in the game.

With warrior at least (and balance is slowly getting there) the trade off is you’ve got the base hp of a necro but you’re wearing heavy armor and you’re capable of much higher direct damage. Balance doesn’t work the other way around if you’re able to hit hard and are a walking tank as well. Since the last patch warriors have had a lot more sustain and next patch I think we’re looking at improved healing skills for them so it’s going in the right direction, but you don’t want to make them too efficient at healing otherwise it undermines the base role of the class.

But heals should not scale with HP, they should scale with healing power as they do now. That’s what the stats for. I do feel though that investing in healing power could have a higher payoff that what it does now though.

Heavy armor is actually +300 armor points. Not a big reduction: if you want to be sturdy, you have to build for it.

But what’s the use for a warrior to run away? Earning time doesn’t work for him: the longer a fight lasts, the worse it gets for him. If a warriors runs away, he won’t come back, while mesmers and thieves run away for a few seconds, and come back in combat right away. For those two classes, for instance, running away is part of the fight. For warriors, it ends the fight.

With scaling we all mean: the fact that I have a high HP doesn’t mean I can go with worse heals AND worse defences. That forces me into playing a “kill it before it kills you” kind of fight.

The hilarious thing is that in the SotG they suggested increasing warrior base HP in pvp as a solution to the sustainability issue.

“Lets throw more of this flawed design at it, maybe it’ll fix itself!”

redslion.9675:

With scaling we all mean: the fact that I have a high HP doesn’t mean I can go with worse heals AND worse defences. That forces me into playing a “kill it before it kills you” kind of fight.

But that is basically how most classes play. If it’s not that then you’re playing a bunker build and if that’s the case you should be playing on a guardian not a warrior really

Neare.9703:

redslion.9675:

With scaling we all mean: the fact that I have a high HP doesn’t mean I can go with worse heals AND worse defences. That forces me into playing a “kill it before it kills you” kind of fight.

But that is basically how most classes play. If it’s not that then you’re playing a bunker build and if that’s the case you should be playing on a guardian not a warrior really

Not exactly.

When other classes run away, they do that to earn some seconds. Those seconds are enough to put them at an advantage, like waiting for some cooldowns. Warriors get less advantages from running away.

What I’m saying is warriors are forced to play like: “kill it before his heal goes off cooldown. If you can’t manage to do that, you have lost.”

That forces us into rushing. And makes us predictable. We can’t wait for perfect occasions: by the time we wait, the enemy heal will be off cooldown (and ours will not, or is less efficient, and the longer a fight goes, the more this is important).

That’s because our heals are worse.

sorrow.2364:

Blackhat.4016:

I was talking about both, base HP and vitality. Those stats are not supposed to increase your sustain. They make you more tanky.

If the heals are really that bad (which is not a core problem for warriors imo) you should increase the scaling with Healing Power (not HP).

Imo it would help much more if some traits/utility skills would be changed to give warriors and necros more sustain. That way they could choose to build for sustain instead of having high sustain because of their HP (which makes more sense and would be balanced).

More HP doesn’t make you more tanky.
More toughness makes you tanky. More HP without toughness and damage mitigation just makes you last few seconds more, which is useless.

I think that both base values and Healing Power scaling should be increased.
If they just increase the Healing Power scaling, then Warriors and Necromancers are forced to bring healing power to have enough survivability.

Do you mean with sustain the percentage of damage healed?
Then, if you look closer, Elementalists, Thieves and Guardians have an innate better sustain compared to Necromancer and Warriors with base stats, which isn’t that good balance-wise.

More HP makes you more tanky. If you have ~2x the base HP (excluding Vitality here to make it easier) an enemy can hit you more often until you die aka you’re more tanky.

Toughness, Defense and Protection are damage mitigation which can’t be compared to HP or sustain. Otherwise you could tell me how much 1s of protection is in HP or healing? As you can see this doesn’t work which means you need to seperate those 3 things.

• Being tanky
• Sustain
• Damage mitigation

Being tanky and sustain can be compared in some way since they are both flat amounts while damage mitigation isn’t (if you want more infos check the wiki for Armor and Damage). All three should still be separated though to make balancing easier.

If the sustain is suddenly better because you’re more tanky (remember HP, not damage mitigation) it would make no sense anymore and balancing would be even more difficult.

Maybe the word tanky is a bad choice here but I can’t think of anything better to explain what I mean.

P.S. I know you can separate Toughness + Defense and Protection as well but that would make my explanation even more complicated.

redslion.9675:

Not exactly.

When other classes run away, they do that to earn some seconds. Those seconds are enough to put them at an advantage, like waiting for some cooldowns. Warriors get less advantages from running away.

What I’m saying is warriors are forced to play like: “kill it before his heal goes off cooldown. If you can’t manage to do that, you have lost.”

That forces us into rushing. And makes us predictable. We can’t wait for perfect occasions: by the time we wait, the enemy heal will be off cooldown (and ours will not, or is less efficient, and the longer a fight goes, the more this is important).

That’s because our heals are worse.

Indeed. Though most classes are fairly predictable nowadays, at the very least you can work out their rough build within a few seconds.
But warrior heals are supposed to be getting a buff next patch either way.

Neare.9703:

redslion.9675:

With scaling we all mean: the fact that I have a high HP doesn’t mean I can go with worse heals AND worse defences. That forces me into playing a “kill it before it kills you” kind of fight.

But that is basically how most classes play. If it’s not that then you’re playing a bunker build and if that’s the case you should be playing on a guardian not a warrior really

Because warriors are supposed to be played like “real thieves”? Constantly circling at the edge of every battle carefully considering the odds of going in at the right time, doing damage and going out – or be slain in the blink of an eye?
Not everyone thinks a warrior should be played like this.
Also about necro lifesteal: it comes close to eles on paper but ultimately fails because of restricting execution, interrupts and not working with the class mechanic.

The thing about high hp classes is that they get hit harder by every source of damage in the long run. Both of these classes lack dodges and or substantial mitigation tools in the form of invulns/blocks/distortion. Yes they got access to it, but both still get hit by conditions in their respective skills (DS, war shield block/endure pain). This leads to them taking more damage overall and beeing held back by heals, which aren’t balanced around the class, but rather the healing amount and their secondary effects.
A 25 second cd heal with most likely heal you for around 5k+, doesn’t matter if you base hp is 11k or 19k, but having less base hp means more access to heals, boons, and evades.

Neare.9703:

Yet higher HP pools are a trade off to mobility, and a fair trade off at that I believe.

All classes do have access to some form of leaving combat. Warrior can use skills like rush etc. to get away (you can also trait to remove soft cc), necro has flesh worm and spectral walk. (btw, necro has lifesteal as a class mechanic which when built right can heal as much as any bunker ele walking around with 13k hp yet with 27k + shroud. And not only are you healing, but all that heal is also damage on your opponent) Though you don’t have to rely on these, but then what you take instead you hope it fulfills a role that can risk your death more often. Also I’d have to say that Consume Conditions is my favorite heal skill in the game and one of the most effective/powerful especially in the current meta. Necro may be susceptible to cc but they are no glass canon’s. Also tactically, fear should be used to avoid cc in the first place. You’re able to do damage while the target is feared, fear chains override stunbreakers and you can force pepole off ledges/points. Fear is perhaps the most useful CC’s in the game.

With warrior at least (and balance is slowly getting there) the trade off is you’ve got the base hp of a necro but you’re wearing heavy armor and you’re capable of much higher direct damage. Balance doesn’t work the other way around if you’re able to hit hard and are a walking tank as well. Since the last patch warriors have had a lot more sustain and next patch I think we’re looking at improved healing skills for them so it’s going in the right direction, but you don’t want to make them too efficient at healing otherwise it undermines the base role of the class.

But heals should not scale with HP, they should scale with healing power as they do now. That’s what the stats for. I do feel though that investing in healing power could have a higher payoff that what it does now though.

Spectral walk is worst escape possobility , it more mobility + stun break skill (+33% speed wont help you ) if you compare it agains invisability.
When you are speaking of life steal , do you mean Dagger #2 or Siphon ?
Any way both are horroble, since Siphon wont give you so much healing and Life Steal is easily dodgable. “In right build” never saw any good builds for it, that would allaw necro bunker as good as Guard ,Engi or Ranger.
DS is very bad deffence mechanic as well, as you need time to build it up (I hope dev will understand it some day).
As I see Warrior and Necro is that they are and will be fully offensive classes.

Jzaku.9765:

The hilarious thing is that in the SotG they suggested increasing warrior base HP in pvp as a solution to the sustainability issue.

“Lets throw more of this flawed design at it, maybe it’ll fix itself!”

My necro pops Lich, his health goes to 45k, he still dies in 7 seconds to group focus fire.

They just don’t get how much damage can be done in this game by a single build, let alone several focusing a target.

Necro has good survivabilty your trippin.

Don’t run 30 30 10 and expect survivabilty

But a solid 0 30 20 0 20 build with spectral walk wall maybe even a blind well to prevent thieves and death shroud is bigger now due to points in last tree. Their heal removes all condis. Necro does not have a survivabilty issue. Not to mention fear is also a great defense and offensive skill

fakeblood.2576:

Necro has good survivabilty your trippin.

Don’t run 30 30 10 and expect survivabilty

But a solid 0 30 20 0 20 build with spectral walk wall maybe even a blind well to prevent thieves and death shroud is bigger now due to points in last tree. Their heal removes all condis. Necro does not have a survivabilty issue. Not to mention fear is also a great defense and offensive skill

LOL.

Try that with a group. Spectral wall don’t do anything against anything with stability. Any group will drop you in a few seconds — this is not about 1v1.

Zenith.7301:

fakeblood.2576:

Necro has good survivabilty your trippin.

Don’t run 30 30 10 and expect survivabilty

But a solid 0 30 20 0 20 build with spectral walk wall maybe even a blind well to prevent thieves and death shroud is bigger now due to points in last tree. Their heal removes all condis. Necro does not have a survivabilty issue. Not to mention fear is also a great defense and offensive skill

LOL.

Try that with a group. Spectral wall don’t do anything against anything with stability. Any group will drop you in a few seconds — this is not about 1v1.

So how long do you wanna be able to survive against 5 people targeting you? It’s simple spectral walk teleport back wall well death shroud after all that u then die because hey no glass class should ever be able to tank 5 people lol nib

I saw ONE thing mentioned in this thread that interested me, aside from lookin’ at Necros, as they don’t need any more healing to go with that monstrous mountain they have called a health pool. (Unless they had their damage toned the eff down first)

Healing for more based on having more health. Maybe not an insane bonus, but a bonus none the less, just enough to make a difference. I can see something like that being just significant enough to start pulling away from pure glass cannon builds as just having a little extra health would grant just enough extra healing to make you more of a presence in a team fight.

Of course, I realize there’s pros and cons … which is why I explicitly called out necros. They don’t need more sustain to go with having a huge health pool and strong damage. If they want more sustain … then make them less Optimus Prime in disguise as a friggin truck in terms of damage.

If Necros had crazy sustain on top of everything else they now have like their two more conditions & more sources of fear which does more damage based on amount of conditions on their target … (if I am mistaken, please correct me :P) well they’d be the end all, best class in the game, hands down.

And really … when I watch a good necro play, or hell, even worse … watching a BAD necro play and do phenomenally well with minimal effort … yeesh …

Jesiah.2457:

I saw ONE thing mentioned in this thread that interested me, aside from lookin’ at Necros, as they don’t need any more healing to go with that monstrous mountain they have called a health pool. (Unless they had their damage toned the eff down first)

Healing for more based on having more health. Maybe not an insane bonus, but a bonus none the less, just enough to make a difference. I can see something like that being just significant enough to start pulling away from pure glass cannon builds as just having a little extra health would grant just enough extra healing to make you more of a presence in a team fight.

Of course, I realize there’s pros and cons … which is why I explicitly called out necros. They don’t need more sustain to go with having a huge health pool and strong damage. If they want more sustain … then make them less Optimus Prime in disguise as a friggin truck in terms of damage.

If Necros had crazy sustain on top of everything else they now have like their two more conditions & more sources of fear which does more damage based on amount of conditions on their target … (if I am mistaken, please correct me :P) well they’d be the end all, best class in the game, hands down.

And really … when I watch a good necro play, or hell, even worse … watching a BAD necro play and do phenomenally well with minimal effort … yeesh …

Necro Dmg is only because of Burning, so if necros will ignore it and go more deffence (DS or Hp pool) we will go to pre patch to UP state. Well mb not so bad, but still not good as we are now. I know that some ppl disagree with that, but at the end most teams will ignore necro, what practiculy means killing class in pvp.
About necro burst i can say only one thing : which class has a hard burst ? – non. So does necro! Dont forget that necro is focused in few seconds down with burst or is killed very fast with conditions (even with all it condi tranfer etc.) Also dont forget that necro are using deffencive/supporting CC [fear] for burst, so he cant support team so good anymore.

I know that necro is powerful opponent, but i really dont thing he is needing a big nerf. Adjusting Dhuhuumfire will do everything fine, but as we all know anet balancing, i guess necro will be disband from tpvp again (or wont change anything at all). I hope this necro nerf will come not soon, as i was waiting necro buff for 10 months.

Necros don’t deserve to complain where warriors do. Necros instant cast their aoe faceroll … too easy for such damage potential. Warriors, even with buffs and tweaks and whatnot, have their base issues ignored by the idiots ruining (oops, running) this game. This is probably due to being vastly understaffed in the balance-the-game department, that and most likely further complicated due to their real money maker, PVE content.

Arenanet obviously has NO idea what the hell they are doing considering Warrior is still such an easy to predict class and in such a bad state.

Of course you don’t want necro nerfed. It’s quite literally, faceroll. Just bind your marks to all keys, maybe throw a few weapon swap binds in there, and start mashing your face on the keyboard. Guaranteed you will bring normal players down with this method of play.

Warriors have never had it easy like that. At least Necros have seen tpvp and been useful. Necro Engi, anyone? What’s a warrior seriously good for that something else doesn’t do better / more effectively with less risk?

The balance in this game is absurd. It is a pathetic, unlaughable joke at best. I’m sick and tired of this LITERAL side project they call “Structured PvP”. I wish I never wasted my money on this trash. Even being a free to play game it isn’t worth the frustration this garbage brings forth.

Also it is not “only” because of burning, it adds a lot of damage, but it’s one of two more layers added onto fear making it do more damage. And on the note of burning … easily the most powerful / ridiculously stupid hard to counter condition in the game. That’s another thing wrong with this game, 5 million conditions & boons. There’s not enough boon removal / condition cleansing for this overwhelming fuster cluck of spammed crap.

Having high dmg doesnt mean that we dont need any survavobility – necro dps will be nerfed down to the ground and we wont get anything in return, so we will proboly stand right next to warriors , again.
Btw. necro since release never had this easy life till this month and most of necros still remember it . But since Corruption boon was nerfd- you actually have a good chances to kill a necro xD

Jesiah.2457:

I saw ONE thing mentioned in this thread that interested me, aside from lookin’ at Necros, as they don’t need any more healing to go with that monstrous mountain they have called a health pool. (Unless they had their damage toned the eff down first)

Healing for more based on having more health. Maybe not an insane bonus, but a bonus none the less, just enough to make a difference. I can see something like that being just significant enough to start pulling away from pure glass cannon builds as just having a little extra health would grant just enough extra healing to make you more of a presence in a team fight.

Of course, I realize there’s pros and cons … which is why I explicitly called out necros. They don’t need more sustain to go with having a huge health pool and strong damage. If they want more sustain … then make them less Optimus Prime in disguise as a friggin truck in terms of damage.

If Necros had crazy sustain on top of everything else they now have like their two more conditions & more sources of fear which does more damage based on amount of conditions on their target … (if I am mistaken, please correct me :P) well they’d be the end all, best class in the game, hands down.

And really … when I watch a good necro play, or hell, even worse … watching a BAD necro play and do phenomenally well with minimal effort … yeesh …

That’s because of the actual state of Necro, which really doesn’t regard their survivability at all.
I can say the same about Warrior and Eviscerate and Kill Shot, but I won’t because it isn’t the subject of the topic.

The subject of the topic is that Necromancers and Warriors have innate worse sustain compared to other professions because of the higher health pool, which puts them automatically sub-par in terms of survivability.

i think necros survibility is decent now, maybe that’s because i play chain fear, but being able to remove alot of conditions and cc enemies real fast, have protection, weakness and a second HP bar is pretty decent.

Lighter.5631:

i think necros survibility is decent now, maybe that’s because i play chain fear, but being able to remove alot of conditions and cc enemies real fast, have protection, weakness and a second HP bar is pretty decent.

Elementalists have pretty much the same but with vigor, evades and loads of healing.

Also, please, don’t say that Death Shroud is a second HP bar. It is completely false.

sorrow.2364:

Lighter.5631:

i think necros survibility is decent now, maybe that’s because i play chain fear, but being able to remove alot of conditions and cc enemies real fast, have protection, weakness and a second HP bar is pretty decent.

Elementalists have pretty much the same but with vigor, evades and loads of healing.

Also, please, don’t say that Death Shroud is a second HP bar. It is completely false.

Elementalists have higher tier survibility thats all. thats why i called necros survibility decent(or maybe another word, viable), not high. and why should everyone have the same level of survibility, then everyone should be like guardian and ele.

and yes, ds is a 2nd hp bar

Lighter.5631:

Elementalists have higher tier survibility thats all. thats why i called necros survibility decent(or maybe another word, viable), not high. and why should everyone have the same level of survibility, then everyone should be like guardian and ele.

and yes, ds is a 2nd hp bar

What about Mesmer then? I want to get the same level of visual confusion, same perma-vigor, same invulnerability on demand and same mobility. They aren’t supposed to be the best survivable profession, right? Why then they are capable to survive better than Necromancer?

Do I have to consider Rangers and Engineers too?

No. As long as Death Shroud doesn’t allow me to use my utilities skills, stunbreakers and heal, it degenerates over time at 3% per second, it is only ~10k and I can access to with a cooldown of 10s, it would never be a second HP bar.

fakeblood.2576:

Necro has good survivabilty your trippin.

Not sure how you define “good”, but I disagree. Since the topic is about Warrior and Necro, let me frame it for you this way…

A Guardian or Mesmer or Thief in a Zerker amulet is multiple more times survivable than a Warrior or Necro in Shaman or Cleric amulet.

That is just how it is. Of course these classes (War and Nec) build to DPS race, and frankly they should have the ability to out DPS everyone since their sustain is the worst in the game. You can tone down the raw damage if you give them sustain tools like other classes, but the HP pool is a poor substitute as it is a buffer of about 2s worth of burst. A Mesmer or Guardian, for instance has enough hard defense on Sword 2 or #6 (shelter) respectively to completely level out the HP difference in a single cast. Then those skill recharge.

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

fakeblood.2576:

Necro has good survivabilty your trippin.

Not sure how you define “good”, but I disagree. Since the topic is about Warrior and Necro, let me frame it for you this way…

A Guardian or Mesmer or Thief in a Zerker amulet is multiple more times survivable than a Warrior or Necro in Shaman or Cleric amulet.

That is just how it is. Of course these classes (War and Nec) build to DPS race, and frankly they should have the ability to out DPS everyone since their sustain is the worst in the game. You can tone down the raw damage if you give them sustain tools like other classes, but the HP pool is a poor substitute as it is a buffer of about 2s worth of burst. A Mesmer or Guardian, for instance has enough hard defense on Sword 2 or #6 (shelter) respectively to completely level out the HP difference in a single cast. Then those skill recharge.

Blurred Frenzy hasn’t been nerfed remotely enough imo. It’s always hilarious when 1 skill on a (now 12s) recharge completely outshines an entire profession mechanic.

Anyone who knows anything about game balance can tell you why scaling heals based around a classes vitality and vitality alone is a terrible idea.

The necromancer is actually extremely survivable against condition builds. It just suffers against physical damage builds so at least it’s 50/50 at the moment.

If you want to make necros and warriors more sustainable you’re going to break the game. Most would argue the game is already unbalanced due to necromancer buffs.

To adjust properly you have to lower dps potential on both classes while adding condi removal to warrior and stunbreaks + protection or vigor or regen to necromancers. IMO of course.

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

fakeblood.2576:

Necro has good survivabilty your trippin.

Not sure how you define “good”, but I disagree. Since the topic is about Warrior and Necro, let me frame it for you this way…

A Guardian or Mesmer or Thief in a Zerker amulet is multiple more times survivable than a Warrior or Necro in Shaman or Cleric amulet.

That is just how it is. Of course these classes (War and Nec) build to DPS race, and frankly they should have the ability to out DPS everyone since their sustain is the worst in the game. You can tone down the raw damage if you give them sustain tools like other classes, but the HP pool is a poor substitute as it is a buffer of about 2s worth of burst. A Mesmer or Guardian, for instance has enough hard defense on Sword 2 or #6 (shelter) respectively to completely level out the HP difference in a single cast. Then those skill recharge.

Sorry should have changed it to “great” survivability. MM necros with soldiers amulet are actually great back point defenders. How about the whole necro well builds which is also great protection and health way more survivable then a warrior. You said a thief with shamans has more survive then a necro with one? You are surely mistaken. And as a necro you are incredibly strong against condi classes! So you think a mesmer with a tanker amulet had more sustain lol

No way to warrior survive agaist any other classes, does no matter what sort of build you make, other classes just charge and get close of warrior and stomps easily.
- No needs warrior aproach, the enemy will make because he know that nave no danger -
Make a warrior and go s/tPvP and see yourself, you will be forced to stand far all time and careful to any enemy get close to you, if he aproach end close melee you are dead.

- Some times i think Anet want us play like glass nuker Archer or Sniper, hided of enemi.

Godofallu.2935:

Anyone who knows anything about game balance can tell you why scaling heals based around a classes vitality and vitality alone is a terrible idea.

The necromancer is actually extremely survivable against condition builds. It just suffers against physical damage builds so at least it’s 50/50 at the moment.

If you want to make necros and warriors more sustainable you’re going to break the game. Most would argue the game is already unbalanced due to necromancer buffs.

To adjust properly you have to lower dps potential on both classes while adding condi removal to warrior and stunbreaks + protection or vigor or regen to necromancers. IMO of course.

It isn’t actually more survivable against condition builds.
Yes, Necromancers and Warriors have actually more time to clean their conditions but, still, you need more time to heal up the damage you would take.

Keep in mind that conditions need to be applied through skills, so a profession with more damage avoiding capability are naturally less susceptible to condition damage too.
Also, it makes sense that Necromancers and Warriors have better condition resistance.
Necromancers are by design the condition-centric profession, while warrior always had really poor condition removals.

So, I don’t see how giving extra heals to those profession can break the game in some way.

Developers have already stated that they don’t want to give vigor to necromancers, neither protection to warriors and they are quite right. But the issue has to be solved somehow.

I’m trying to find out how people think making heals stronger on High Health classes makes any sense. You start the match with more health and have heals that do roughly the same compared to other classes.

Chase.8415:

I’m trying to find out how people think making heals stronger on High Health classes makes any sense. You start the match with more health and have heals that do roughly the same compared to other classes.

Because you did not read the topic at all.
Higher health pool is given to those profession because they have less way to mitigate damage.
If they don’t give better tools to heal back, the higher health pool does not compensate properly the lack of defensive capabilities of those professions.

sorrow.2364:

Chase.8415:

I’m trying to find out how people think making heals stronger on High Health classes makes any sense. You start the match with more health and have heals that do roughly the same compared to other classes.

Because you did not read the topic at all.
Higher health pool is given to those profession because they have less way to mitigate damage.
If they don’t give better tools to heal back, the higher health pool does not compensate properly the lack of defensive capabilities of those professions.

Still doesn’t make any sense to me. You have teammates that can help you out with snares and knockbacks. You also do significantly more damage for the amount of defense and health you can get as well.

Chase.8415:

Still doesn’t make any sense to me. You have teammates that can help you out with snares and knockbacks. You also do significantly more damage for the amount of defense and health you can get as well.

How can be “you have teammates that can help” a valid justification to the lack of defensive capability of a specific profession? If you needs your teammates to survive there is a problem.

Since when Warriors and Necromancers do significantly more damage?
Try to run a berserker Thief or Mesmer. Then compare their survivability to a berserker Warrior or Necromancer.

It looks like you didn’t play this game at all and you are just bringing up theories.

fakeblood.2576:

Sorry should have changed it to “great” survivability. MM necros with soldiers amulet are actually great back point defenders.

Mesmers poop better back point defenders than MM Necro. Hell, so do Rangers and Guardians for that matter. There is no MM build that is truly viable in that role due to lack of ability to reset, and lack of sufficient mobility to contribute elsewhere in the match. Not to mention there are far more survivable builds with far more offensive capacity. In lower tanking matches you might be able to get away with a Necro on back point, but I haven’t ever seen a good team run one, and I haven’t ever seen one operate in that capacity effectively, except when it was just a blatantly overmatched opponent.

fakeblood.2576:

How about the whole necro well builds which is also great protection and health way more survivable then a warrior.

The debate is not Necro v Warrior, but rather Necro and Warrior are completely devoid of mitigation tools that other professions can use on 0-25s CDs. I do however grant you the point that Warrior cannot duplicate the survivability of a Protection/Well necro.

fakeblood.2576:

You said a thief with shamans has more survive then a necro with one? You are surely mistaken. And as a necro you are incredibly strong against condi classes! So you think a mesmer with a tanker amulet had more sustain lol

No. I said a Thief in Zerkers is more survivable than a Necro in Shamans. I do not believe this is mistaken at all. A thief can disengage at will unless someone makes a lucky guess, or there is another thief present to chase him down. Their heals are short enough CD and potent enough that they can reset and re-assault the node in 20s or less more often than not. There is no instance where a necromancer can accomplish this (short of the opponent making a mistake). A Thief also has the ability to spam evades where a Necro has the worst endurance regen in the game thanks to 0 traits that buff endurance regen and 0 access to vigor (I won’t even dignify Well of Power with a response even after the shortened CD).

While I agree that Necro is fairly robust against conditions they are far from what I consider “incredibly strong” in this regard. They have 2 weapon skills that cleanse 3 (Staff 4 can do more if it hits multiple targets only) and a heal skill that cleanses all. The weapon skills cleanse nothing if dodged,blocked or invulned. Staff 4 has a 3/4s cast (granted it is an indistinguishable animation from the other marks, but still) and Dagger 4 is 1/4s plus flight time. Consume Conditions has a MASSIVE 1.25s cast time and a blatantly obvious animation that begs for interrupt. I don’t think that the utilities really change this aspect for the Necro, because the ones that cleanse (Plague Signet and Well of Power) are long CD’s and either require a hit (Signet) or the ability to stand in on spot for an extended period (well).

And Yes. A Mesmer with a Zerker amulet is absolutely more sustainable than Necros. They have short CD evade (Sword 2), short CD gap opener/mini stun break (Staff 2), another mini stun break on Sword 3 chain, access to stealth, access to long distance teleports, a profession mechanic that provides invuln and interrupts, far better stun breaks than necro on shorter CD and a multitude of instant cast skill that can get them out of a bad spot quickly.

sorrow.2364:

Chase.8415:

Still doesn’t make any sense to me. You have teammates that can help you out with snares and knockbacks. You also do significantly more damage for the amount of defense and health you can get as well.

How can be “you have teammates that can help” a valid justification to the lack of defensive capability of a specific profession? If you needs your teammates to survive there is a problem.

Since when Warriors and Necromancers do significantly more damage?
Try to run a berserker Thief or Mesmer. Then compare their survivability to a berserker Warrior or Necromancer.

It looks like you didn’t play this game at all and you are just bringing up theories.

This game is not balanced around 1v1.

Chase.8415:

This game is not balanced around 1v1.

And ducks fly.

Seriously, what does it mean?
This game is all about splitting up and small scale fights. Why in this world should a profession rely on teammates to properly survive? What if your teammates is a thief?

sorrow.2364:

Chase.8415:

This game is not balanced around 1v1.

And ducks fly.

Seriously, what does it mean?
This game is all about splitting up and small scale fights. Why in this world should a profession rely on teammates to properly survive? What if your teammates is a thief?

There’s more to it than that. Warriors need additional work, but increasing self heals isn’t going to fix anything in tournament level PvP. All it will do is make them overpowered in the low end.

Warriors won’t be happy till they can have the same heals as an apothecary wearing Ranger while using Berserker Gear

fakeblood.2576:

Zenith.7301:

fakeblood.2576:

Necro has good survivabilty your trippin.

Don’t run 30 30 10 and expect survivabilty

But a solid 0 30 20 0 20 build with spectral walk wall maybe even a blind well to prevent thieves and death shroud is bigger now due to points in last tree. Their heal removes all condis. Necro does not have a survivabilty issue. Not to mention fear is also a great defense and offensive skill

LOL.

Try that with a group. Spectral wall don’t do anything against anything with stability. Any group will drop you in a few seconds — this is not about 1v1.

So how long do you wanna be able to survive against 5 people targeting you? It’s simple spectral walk teleport back wall well death shroud after all that u then die because hey no glass class should ever be able to tank 5 people lol nib

I wanna live at least nearly as long as my mesmer or ele can stay when focused, hurr-dirpie.

Chase.8415:

There’s more to it than that. Warriors need additional work, but increasing self heals isn’t going to fix anything in tournament level PvP. All it will do is make them overpowered in the low end.

They will probably need more work, who knows. But buffing the healing overall on professions with higher HP pool is a needed step.

How can it make them overpowered in the low end? Just because they heal 2-3k HP more on their base heal which is popped out every 20-25s?
As Myrmidian said, those are the exact same amount of damage Mesmer is capable to mitigate through Blurried Frenzy. Or the amount of damage Guardian can mitigate through Protector Strike or Shield of Wrath. The same damage a Thief can mitigate through Pistol Whip. The same damage Elementalist can mitigate throught Arcane Shield.

Do I have to go on? I think this is enough to make you get the idea.

Xsorus.2507:

Warriors won’t be happy till they can have the same heals as an apothecary wearing Ranger while using Berserker Gear

I can tell this guy never seriously played a warrior.