Guild Wars 2

uhohhotdog.3598:

Having Randomness to a game doesn’t negate skill. Poker is random as far as what cards you get yet it is a very high skill game.

Do not compare this game to poker ever, ever, ever, ever.

Where is Sigil of Rage in the list?

I keep seeing people mention “there is no counter-play around the sigils/runes”. I feel these players believe that every attack should be obvious and easy to dodge/block. Let’s not forget that “counter-play” involves a great many deal of aspects far beyond “is something RNG? Is it dodgable?”

Let’s not forget why games like “Magic Cards” are exciting.
You never really are sure what you or your opponent will draw next.
Even though, you put the deck together yourself.

Any good game needs two elements:

• Solid reliable aspects ~ IE: The cards you chose to build your magic deck with
• RNG so a game isn’t totally predictable ~ IE: Each game due to the RNG of drawing cards will vary greatly in it’s flow of actions. This is why the game never dies. It gives your brain something new to figure out how to play around, every game.

The above two examples are very very very similar to building a build in an MMORPG. Chose your class, it’s traits, weapons, utilities. There is your solid aspect. Then we have some RNG to throw in so that encounters can vary.

I’d also like to point out that GW2 already has the least amount of RNG that I have ever seen any other MMORPG or Action RPG

Trevor Boyer.6524:

I keep seeing people mention “there is no counter-play around the sigils/runes”. I feel these players believe that every attack should be obvious and easy to dodge/block. Let’s not forget that “counter-play” involves a great many deal of aspects far beyond “is something RNG? Is it dodgable?”

Let’s not forget why games like “Magic Cards” are exciting.
You never really are sure what you or your opponent will draw next.
Even though, you put the deck together yourself.

I think it’s important to distinguish the forms of design where randomness comes into play here. In your example of a game of magic, you and your opponent do indeed get a random card drawn, however there usually no random element as to the player’s action when they play a certain card, they know exactly what effect it will have. This is the difference between randomness that encourages the player to be adaptable, and randomness that takes away control of the player and puts it on a diceroll. The latter is not healthy for a competitive game, or at least so long as it’s in moderate amounts.

Mind, I don’t necesarily agree with the sentiment of the thread title, I think the issue goes deeper than just RNG.

The biggest issue being complained about is the RNG of Fire/Air procs. They are saying that “we don’t know when it’s going to happen so there is no counter-play” and “It is taking control away from us”. How is this any different than knowing or not knowing when a Necromancer will pop Lich? or maybe when an Engi will drop his crate? or maybe when you will be Moa’d? Consider this question.

Consider that maybe Fire/Air sigils are not as RNG as people seem to think. I mean it really is pretty easy to figure out, very simple:

• Fire goes off just about every 5s with reasonable precision
• Air goes off just about every 3s with reasonable precision
• They cannot go off twice before their timers are up.

How is this any different than if I patched the game myself to stop the complaining about RNG and made them function as this:

• Fire will go off in the first swing crit or no crit, with 5s recharge
• Air will go off in the first swing, crit or no crit, with 3s recharge
• Completely predictable but yet virtually the same frequency as critical based procs.

I think what people are really complaining about, is the DPS values on these procs, not the RNG. Because when you really evaluate this, the RNG isn’t really very RNG’ish at all. The very first time you play a serk build with Fire/Air it’s pretty noticeable that the procs are reliable and predictable. That is why people use them to begin with. They are reliable DPS. That pretty much means that they aren’t random at all.

So what is causing this debate? People getting mad that they can’t easily dodge or avoid the DPS. Well let me once again point out that there is a lot of DPS in this game that isn’t very easily dodged rolled or avoided. That is the point of toughness/vitality/blocking/damage mitigation, ect.. ect.. I’d also like to point out that these same players who feel like they are “losing control to RNG” will still be losing control to RNG if/when fire/air was completely removed. You’re still going to lose to the same players that are beating you now.

Trevor Boyer.6524:

The biggest issue being complained about is the RNG of Fire/Air procs. They are saying that “we don’t know when it’s going to happen so there is no counter-play” and “It is taking control away from us”. How is this any different than knowing or not knowing when a Necromancer will pop Lich? or maybe when an Engi will drop his crate? or maybe when you will be Moa’d? Consider this question.

Consider that maybe Fire/Air sigils are not as RNG as people seem to think. I mean it really is pretty easy to figure out, very simple:

• Fire goes off just about every 5s with reasonable precision
• Air goes off just about every 3s with reasonable precision
• They cannot go off twice before their timers are up.

How is this any different than if I patched the game myself to stop the complaining about RNG and made them function as this:

• Fire will go off in the first swing crit or no crit, with 5s recharge
• Air will go off in the first swing, crit or no crit, with 3s recharge
• Completely predictable but yet virtually the same frequency as critical based procs.

I think what people are really complaining about, is the DPS values on these procs, not the RNG. Because when you really evaluate this, the RNG isn’t really very RNG’ish at all. The very first time you play a serk build with Fire/Air it’s pretty noticeable that the procs are reliable and predictable. That is why people use them to begin with. They are reliable DPS. That pretty much means that they aren’t random at all.

So what is causing this debate? People getting mad that they can’t easily dodge or avoid the DPS. Well let me once again point out that there is a lot of DPS in this game that isn’t very easily dodged rolled or avoided. That is the point of toughness/vitality/blocking/damage mitigation, ect.. ect.. I’d also like to point out that these same players who feel like they are “losing control to RNG” will still be losing control to RNG if/when fire/air was completely removed. You’re still going to lose to the same players that are beating you now.

You seem to be forgetting that a 600 port or ticking damage crit gets 2.4k added to it… A 1k auto attack gets 2.4k added to it… The point is if you avoid all their damaging skills the sigils pick up the difference. You are losing control of the fight because the weapon skills damage and cast time and ease of hit balance is being thrown out the window by the sigils.

The reason people say “its random” is because they avoided all the skills Anet designed to have counterplay but get hit by a random tiny packet of damage that SHOULDN’T be a threat (and was designed around that fact) suddenly can cause their death.

Also all the skills you mentioned up the top have counter play to them, dont try and list obviously avoidable things and claim any link to sigils xD

Trevor Boyer.6524:

The biggest issue being complained about is the RNG of Fire/Air procs. They are saying that “we don’t know when it’s going to happen so there is no counter-play” and _"It is taking control away from us".

Nop.

The point is that a 200 damage fart can become a 3k ( air fire), 4 k ( air fire leech) or several thousands damage hit or even worse ( air-fire-leech-hammer chill/chill of death/panic strike) and so on.

Trevor Boyer.6524:

So what is causing this debate? People getting mad that they can’t easily dodge or avoid the DPS. Well let me once again point out that there is a lot of DPS in this game that isn’t very easily dodged rolled or avoided.

You’re right that sigil procs aren’t very random. The thread is poorly titled. The heart of the complaint is that the damage from sigil procs (and other on-crit or on-hit procs) is unavoidable yet contributes a significant amount of damage. It’s unavoidable in the sense that you can’t predict it and even if an enemy attack fails, the proc doesn’t go on a cooldown.

In a game where a measure of skill is avoiding the stronger attacks and eating weaker ones, you can’t have strong damage which will happen on the next successful hit/crit anyway. If there are other strong attacks (not just damage – CC is powerful too) which aren’t easily avoided or otherwise countered or have a trade-off for the user, they need to be examined as well.

A further problem with procs is that they make already strong burst attacks even stronger. The damage is all at once, so defenses which work over time are less effective. Players also have less time to react, giving the advantage to burst damage builds.

Sure, some players will still lose even if procs are nerfed. But at least it will be more clear what they lost to so that they can better counter or avoid it in the future. You can’t counter procs.

There we go
Now they’re talking about the real problem
Fire/Air dealing too much damage in general

What about the other problem of like 80% of other Sigils just being bad? If Air/Fire is SS tier then the rest are like B-D tier. They should be toned down and the others should be brought up.

On Crit sigils should Be:
A, able to miss and go on CD.
B, show up like the Int Sigil on weapon swap when they become active. This would allow counter-play to an extent

Another option is to scale the sigil damage through an additional modifier based on the attack that procs it (all attacks already have a power modifier use this to scale the procs). This would also make people want to use sigils on their power hits and not on there farts.

Or better yet with the release of HOT rework sigils to be 2 more utility slots that you can fill, they have a CD and must be activated and apply (like int) as a buff so they can be seen (I seriously vote this one but it wont happen lol)

I don’t mind RNG for procs if they are a low % and have a powerful but not game changing effect.

But the problem here is these are not even RNG. These are pretty much strait strong passive buffs to damage, and I agree that it is bad for the game. That being said a lot of builds NEED these buffs because of the imbalance tanky Damage/condi/brusier types bring, and sigils is part of what keeps zerker relevant. Sure these sigils are a problem (specifically air/fire but others as well) but imo they are a symptom of a greater balance design issue.

@MTG design
Card game design philosophy has very little place in any game that requires some level of APM to be effective. Especially one that aspires to be an e-sport. Randomness is fine in card games when it is something not used often and lets you maybe make a fair trade or screws you over. That being said if there was more jousting, and punishing over extention, randomness may be considered viable.

FYI – Widow mine in SC is an example of how far randomness should stretch imo.

Also getting mana flooded or starved although technically can make it fun for newer players, in a video game that is clearly not turn based, the way you allow beginners an edge is with something over powered but VERY limited. <- NOT give them access to easy builds that in the hands of an already decent player proves the build is objectively better than a more skilled option.

That being said I still don’t believe the sigils are RNG based. If you have 50% crit It’s going to proc

Trevor Boyer.6524:

There we go
Now they’re talking about the real problem
Fire/Air dealing too much damage in general

Even if they dealt 400 damage each, it’s still added damage that shouldn’t be there.

moreover air fire are just a small part, every rune/sigil used currently i uettrly broken ( hello vamp runes)

I support Air and Fire working like Leeching where the effect can be blocked/dodged. Trickier to implement but it could be done. As much as I hate to say it, making sigils like those all on weapon swap might actually be a good idea. Loath to say it ‘cause you don’t always want to switch asap.

Mrbig.8019:

Trevor Boyer.6524:

There we go
Now they’re talking about the real problem
Fire/Air dealing too much damage in general

Even if they dealt 400 damage each, it’s still added damage that shouldn’t be there.

moreover air fire are just a small part, every rune/sigil used currently i uettrly broken ( hello vamp runes)

IMHO the problem is that they can proc all sort of attacks that happen “on hit”.
Take “Chill of Death”, for example.
In theory, you shoud be afraid of getting hit while BELOW 50% hp. In practice, this never happens, as usually the attack that drops you below 50% HP procs Air/Fire, which will then proc Chill of Death.

Just make it so that autos can’t proc fire/air sigils and several other passive effects (certain traits), or reduce the chance greatly, and give swap sigils a half second delay (with or without an animation. Just making it dodgeable would make them easier to deal with).

I don’t see this ever being a bad thing, and would let Anet tweak them a bit to make them useful but not obnoxious.

uhohhotdog.3598:

Having Randomness to a game doesn’t negate skill. Poker is random as far as what cards you get yet it is a very high skill game.

Doesn’t automatically mean GW2 requires skill despite RNG. In fact it doesn’t. Currently all of the lamest builds work well purely because of the proc sigils.

On that note tPvP takes no skill, just a good mouse and decent reactions.

Yes make another nerf, then somethin else will stand out as “OP” then we will nerf that and continue to repeat this process until there is nothing left to nerf.

I wouldn’t mind seeing sigil crit/swap procs only triggering from weapon attacks and not traits or runes, that would fix a lot imo.

the rng of some rune and sigils are amazing…learn to think ahead in creating builds instead of have the game nerved to nothingness, sick of people crying dumbing the game down…srsly

This thread confirmes that the players are the most hindering factor for guild wars 2 to improve, since many of them are actually against improvement. Did anyone who is defending this topic play the game before the sigil changes? How come noone complained this much about fire / air sigil back then? It is bad for the game, Figure it out.

Quadox.7834:

This thread confirmes that the players are the most hindering factor for guild wars 2 to improve, since many of them are actually against improvement. Did anyone who is defending this topic play the game before the sigil changes? How come noone complained this much about fire / air sigil back then? It is bad for the game, Figure it out.

I’m not complaining about it, I don’t see a real drama with the sigils right now, but it it were changed to only proc on weapon attacks, I wouldn’t have a drama.

The reason nobody complained before the sigil changes is because you couldn’t run two sigils with a CD on the same weapon set, they shared a cooldown. They are much more powerful now due to not sharing CDs and also increased chance to proc and reduced CDs.

Quadox.7834:

This thread confirmes that the players are the most hindering factor for guild wars 2 to improve, since many of them are actually against improvement. Did anyone who is defending this topic play the game before the sigil changes? How come noone complained this much about fire / air sigil back then? It is bad for the game, Figure it out.

I love the way it is now…I’m not a hinder like you want to think I am, I just don’t agree on your crying

Darksteel.8412:

the rng of some rune and sigils are amazing…learn to think ahead in creating builds instead of have the game nerved to nothingness, sick of people crying dumbing the game down…srsly

gotta learn dodging dem unavoidable procs, sorri cuz i bad.

kappa

they do…like intell alrdy…your point?…love the way it is now

it’s why you have like force sigils wich in a way you could say proc always, like you want and air for example does more damage even then force but downside is…it’s abit of rng (btw air procs alot…le prob=?) added to that you can combine force and air…i’d say we been dodging quite abit already….I think you slowly start to realise you’re talking jibberish….sigil system is awesome

Darksteel.8412:

it’s why you have like force sigils wich in a way you could say proc always, like you want and air for example does more damage even then force but downside is…it’s abit of rng (btw air procs alot…le prob=?) added to that you can combine force and air…i’d say we been dodging quite abit already….I think you slowly start to realise you’re talking jibberish….sigil system is awesome

You obviously don’t avoid any attacks if you think Air and Force are even slightly comparable..

well I do tend to make the enemy dodge more then I have too…ty. it’s the point of the game buddy

Darksteel.8412:

the rng of some rune and sigils are amazing…learn to think ahead in creating builds instead of have the game nerved to nothingness, sick of people crying dumbing the game down…srsly

It is literally amazing, so amazing that I got one-shotted from 80% hp from an necromancer pressing 1 today. Totally required skills, not dumb luck right?

Akikaze.1307:

Darksteel.8412:

the rng of some rune and sigils are amazing…learn to think ahead in creating builds instead of have the game nerved to nothingness, sick of people crying dumbing the game down…srsly

It is literally amazing, so amazing that I got one-shotted from 80% hp from an necromancer pressing 1 today. Totally required skills, not dumb luck right?

someone did mention something about dodgerolling

I honestly find it amusing that sigil of geomancy was put on scale of being incredibly powerful like crit sigils which have zero counter play, where as swap sigils, especially one like geomancy do have counterplay.

Case and point? Dodge or be out of range of their swap, or blind it, or block, or invlun. Nerf something like geomancy and it will simply exasperate the “overpowered” issue of on crit sigils, which geomancy is most certainly not. On top of the fact that it can actually be avoided there’s also the fact that condition removal can negate it’s damage before it even comes close to what a crit sigil can provide in faster intervals.

Taking more options away from the game does not solve it’s current problems. I’m not saying crit sigils aren’t an issue or anything, but some revamping might be applicable for others, while leaving some well alone because they’re okay where they are, that being geomancy, which again, has counter play and is not problematic like some sigils are.

Thanks.

Darksteel.8412:

Akikaze.1307:

Darksteel.8412:

the rng of some rune and sigils are amazing…learn to think ahead in creating builds instead of have the game nerved to nothingness, sick of people crying dumbing the game down…srsly

It is literally amazing, so amazing that I got one-shotted from 80% hp from an necromancer pressing 1 today. Totally required skills, not dumb luck right?

someone did mention something about dodgerolling

How would he know that a particular attack would double proc? Or we infinite dodge hax now?

Quadox.7834:

Did anyone who is defending this topic play the game before the sigil changes?

Yes

How come noone complained this much about fire / air sigil back then?

Before the changes, sigil internal cooldowns (ICD) were shared. When one sigil proc’ed, it would put all other sigils on cooldown for the proc’ing sigil’s ICD. Air + Fire wasn’t a thing. Also, the on-crit sigils only had a 30% chance to trigger on crit, so it was less likely that they would go off in one or two attacks.

Jesiah.2457:

I honestly find it amusing that sigil of geomancy was put on scale of being incredibly powerful like crit sigils which have zero counter play, where as swap sigils, especially one like geomancy do have counterplay.

Haha, NO. So you know exactly when an elementalist is going to swap an attunement or an engi will equip a kit and you’re tracking when it’s been 9 seconds since they last triggered the sigil?

Darksteel.8412:

Akikaze.1307:

Darksteel.8412:

the rng of some rune and sigils are amazing…learn to think ahead in creating builds instead of have the game nerved to nothingness, sick of people crying dumbing the game down…srsly

It is literally amazing, so amazing that I got one-shotted from 80% hp from an necromancer pressing 1 today. Totally required skills, not dumb luck right?

someone did mention something about dodgerolling

Ye cuz if u dodge that attack, sigils won’t absolutely proc on next one.

100% confirmed.

kappa.

So what about a red post about the matter ?

it’s not like noone is complaining about this, aight.

Mrbig.8019:

So what about a red post about the matter ?

it’s not like noone is complaining about this, aight.

Nah, they rather reply to an inconsequential poorly formatted (no offense intended) post by a newbie or anything else unimportant than enter a discussion about something that matters.

They probably know tbh.

Exedore.6320:

Quadox.7834:

Did anyone who is defending this topic play the game before the sigil changes?

Yes

How come noone complained this much about fire / air sigil back then?

Before the changes, sigil internal cooldowns (ICD) were shared. When one sigil proc’ed, it would put all other sigils on cooldown for the proc’ing sigil’s ICD. Air + Fire wasn’t a thing. Also, the on-crit sigils only had a 30% chance to trigger on crit, so it was less likely that they would go off in one or two attacks.

Jesiah.2457:

I honestly find it amusing that sigil of geomancy was put on scale of being incredibly powerful like crit sigils which have zero counter play, where as swap sigils, especially one like geomancy do have counterplay.

Haha, NO. So you know exactly when an elementalist is going to swap an attunement or an engi will equip a kit and you’re tracking when it’s been 9 seconds since they last triggered the sigil?

Typically an ele starts in Air(almost regardless of what weapon set he uses. but let’s say D/D). He either RtL or LF to you followed by Updraft with shocking aura. Switch to Fire right after(if you dodged his updraft you should be out of range of any sigil procs ^^), burning speed to ring of fire, roll into earth attunement evasive arcana(would be out of range if you dodged that burning speed and didnt stand in place while he casted ring of fire and dodged. LOL). Magnetic grasp followed by earthquake then 2nd stage of magentic grasp to jump to you and switch to water + Frozen burst when he reaches you ( oh wait, if you dodged that magnetic grasp it wouldn’t matter). Then switch back to air and repeat.

Yes, I can predict when an ele is going to switch attunements.

And counting how many seconds are between specific skills that hit very hard or at least knowing the cooldown is something commonplace for those who wish to better themselves when it comes to pvp.

Also, if you dodged attacks you wouldn’t be getting bursted down by anyone. It’s a shame people don’t think about ‘How do I not get hit by XXXX skill?’ versus, ‘How much HP and toughness do I need to survive XXXX?!’

Bust builds are called ‘Burst’ for a reason. Wouldn’t be burst if they didn’t do a lot of damage in a short time of space, but the good thing about that is… burst is predictable. If you learned the other classes and paid attention to the play style of your enemy you wouldn’t be getting hit by these procs all the time. Even if you did, and you were dodging all other attacks you certainly wouldn’t be at deaths door after getting hit by them.
Easiest way to keep enemies from attacking you is to attack them. However, that logic will only get you so far, especially when fighting an enemy that knows what they’re doing and can do both at the same time.
Not having Sigils such as the ones listed would only further encourage builds similar to the cele meta and other bunker builds and at that point you wouldn’t even have the DPS to ever kill them.
It would be ideas like this that would hammer the final nail into that coffin that is the pvp scene in GW2 atm.

Tyreal.5230:

Not having Sigils such as the ones listed would only further encourage builds similar to the cele meta and other bunker builds and at that point you wouldn’t even have the DPS to ever kill them.
It would be ideas like this that would hammer the final nail into that coffin that is the pvp scene in GW2 atm.

People want Cele and Sigils to be nerf’d together… Stop pretending people just want Sigils nerf’d alone.

4k Auto Attacks or single ticks of Smite or 6k teleports are not good for the game when a very small percentage of that damage comes from the skills. You cannot put a proc on CD with avoidance.

Mesmer with GS and Fire+Air uses auto attack – hits for 4k. Uses iZerker you dodge it, uses mirrblade you dodge it. Auto attacks again twice – hits for 5.3k. You’ve just taken 9.3k from auto attack… Only 35% of the damage came from the Mesmer. Explain why this is ok.

Tyreal.5230:

Also, if you dodged attacks you wouldn’t be getting bursted down by anyone. It’s a shame people don’t think about ‘How do I not get hit by XXXX skill?’ versus, ‘How much HP and toughness do I need to survive XXXX?!’

Bust builds are called ‘Burst’ for a reason. Wouldn’t be burst if they didn’t do a lot of damage in a short time of space, but the good thing about that is… burst is predictable. If you learned the other classes and paid attention to the play style of your enemy you wouldn’t be getting hit by these procs all the time. Even if you did, and you were dodging all other attacks you certainly wouldn’t be at deaths door after getting hit by them.
Easiest way to keep enemies from attacking you is to attack them. However, that logic will only get you so far, especially when fighting an enemy that knows what they’re doing and can do both at the same time.
Not having Sigils such as the ones listed would only further encourage builds similar to the cele meta and other bunker builds and at that point you wouldn’t even have the DPS to ever kill them.
It would be ideas like this that would hammer the final nail into that coffin that is the pvp scene in GW2 atm.

Sure, if you dodge attacks you wouldn’t get hit by anything, everyone is aware of that. However that’s essentially the problem is the concept of dodging. You can’t dodge everything, you have to be selective to what needs to be dodged. Even if you dodge a backstab for example, the thief’s next auto attack could still proc the air/fire combo and basically deal the same damage as 1 backstab. Which brings us back to square one.

Secondly a burst build shouldn’t need to rely on external rng to their capabilities. It is in their setup/build to put out damage. The problem with sigils is that it turns some (non-burst) professions to do more damage than they should be capable. There is already considerable amounts of variables from gameplay alone, critical attacks, variable damage sources, timing, positioning. I’d say the game would be arguably more balanced without any sigils.

Coulter.2315:

Tyreal.5230:

Not having Sigils such as the ones listed would only further encourage builds similar to the cele meta and other bunker builds and at that point you wouldn’t even have the DPS to ever kill them.
It would be ideas like this that would hammer the final nail into that coffin that is the pvp scene in GW2 atm.

People want Cele and Sigils to be nerf’d together… Stop pretending people just want Sigils nerf’d alone.

4k Auto Attacks or single ticks of Smite or 6k teleports are not good for the game when a very small percentage of that damage comes from the skills. You cannot put a proc on CD with avoidance.

Mesmer with GS and Fire+Air uses auto attack – hits for 4k. Uses iZerker you dodge it, uses mirrblade you dodge it. Auto attacks again twice – hits for 5.3k. You’ve just taken 9.3k from auto attack… Only 35% of the damage came from the Mesmer. Explain why this is ok.

When the hell did I say people only wanted sigils nerfed? I SAID it only FURTHER encourages such builds. Don’t twist my words bro.

Secondly, It is okay. That’s why it’s called burst. Every single class in the game has a way to deal with such a situation. Whether it be blocks, stealth, invuln’s or teleports to re-enact LoS by moving behind your opponent. If your enemy is able to auto attack you freely then you obviously aren’t applying enough pressure on them which would make you the one at fault. If you’re getting hit for 9.3k from auto attack ans sigils you must be straight zerker build. Cuz all I run is zerker and I have never gotten hit that hard by an auto attack. If I was, I wouldn’t be running the builds I do now that have a mere12-13k hp without guard stacks.

To achieve the numbers you just listed would require someone to be straight zerker glass cannon playstyle. Since they’re going to die the moment they get sneezed on, yea. I do think it’s okay. They sacrificed they’re survivability to be able to do that much damage. Instead of relying on passive defenses they learned to play their class and fight without high vitality and toughness.

I’ve played bunker specs and zerker builds alike and playing full zerker definitely requires more skill than any bunkerish type build you can show me. Cuz funny thing is, it’s the cele meta that people want nerfed more than anything ( Never heard of anyone saying that ‘zerker build for XXXX class is OP as hell’.

The reason why Cele builds are so strong is because they were theorycrafted and carefully thought out. That’s what it means to create a build. I DON’T PLAY ANY CELE BUILDS, BUT I can admit that the Cele builds are genius if nothing else. That’s why they are so strong, because they’re carefully thought out.

Akikaze.1307:

Tyreal.5230:

Also, if you dodged attacks you wouldn’t be getting bursted down by anyone. It’s a shame people don’t think about ‘How do I not get hit by XXXX skill?’ versus, ‘How much HP and toughness do I need to survive XXXX?!’

Bust builds are called ‘Burst’ for a reason. Wouldn’t be burst if they didn’t do a lot of damage in a short time of space, but the good thing about that is… burst is predictable. If you learned the other classes and paid attention to the play style of your enemy you wouldn’t be getting hit by these procs all the time. Even if you did, and you were dodging all other attacks you certainly wouldn’t be at deaths door after getting hit by them.
Easiest way to keep enemies from attacking you is to attack them. However, that logic will only get you so far, especially when fighting an enemy that knows what they’re doing and can do both at the same time.
Not having Sigils such as the ones listed would only further encourage builds similar to the cele meta and other bunker builds and at that point you wouldn’t even have the DPS to ever kill them.
It would be ideas like this that would hammer the final nail into that coffin that is the pvp scene in GW2 atm.

Sure, if you dodge attacks you wouldn’t get hit by anything, everyone is aware of that. However that’s essentially the problem is the concept of dodging. You can’t dodge everything, you have to be selective to what needs to be dodged. Even if you dodge a backstab for example, the thief’s next auto attack could still proc the air/fire combo and basically deal the same damage as 1 backstab. Which brings us back to square one.

Secondly a burst build shouldn’t need to rely on external rng to their capabilities. It is in their setup/build to put out damage. The problem with sigils is that it turns some (non-burst) professions to do more damage than they should be capable. There is already considerable amounts of variables from gameplay alone, critical attacks, variable damage sources, timing, positioning. I’d say the game would be arguably more balanced without any sigils.

Thankfully dodging isn’t the only form of mitigation. Perhaps your problem is that your to focused on paper based stats and not actual functionality. Once again, why are you being hit in the first place? Wanna know a simple trick to dealing with a mesmer GS auto attack? Dodge the first hits then use your teleport, blocks, invulns, stealth or get out of range, then attack back. Promise you they’ll stop once you start attacking back. Simple psychological strategy. Anything that hits you that hard will prioritize not getting hit back, in other words they aren’t attacking. A skill that does damage can also be used as a defensive tool. You don’t have to just defend or just attack at any given time. A really good player learns how to do both at once. The game will never be balanced and if it ever were it certainly wouldn’t be because sigils were removed.

Tyreal.5230:

Thankfully dodging isn’t the only form of mitigation. Perhaps your problem is that your to focused on paper based stats and not actual functionality. Once again, why are you being hit in the first place? Wanna know a simple trick to dealing with a mesmer GS auto attack? Dodge the first hits then use your teleport, blocks, invulns, stealth or get out of range, then attack back. Promise you they’ll stop once you start attacking back. Simple psychological strategy. Anything that hits you that hard will prioritize not getting hit back, in other words they aren’t attacking. A skill that does damage can also be used as a defensive tool. You don’t have to just defend or just attack at any given time. A really good player learns how to do both at once. The game will never be balanced and if it ever were it certainly wouldn’t be because sigils were removed.

Basically you’re suggesting to blow you defensive capabilities on simple auto attacks? Who do you think will win the battle: The person who just auto attacked you, proc some free damage (and still have retreat/defenses). Or the person who needs to possibly use their stalls/heals/defenses. If you want to talk about functionality, if you’re forced to retreat from multiple damage sigil procs on you (not the actual player casted skill), something’s not right about the game.

More balanced, not ‘the game will be balanced’. The main reason why the Celestial builds are so strong is because they cover all 3 key factors in conquest: mobility, damage and defense. A lot of their damage factor comes from their sigils procs. Taking away sigils alone would mean none of the following: Intelligence for crits, Battle for more might, energy for dodge upkeep, or weapon swap poison/bleed.

Tyreal.5230:

That’s why it’s called burst.

I just want everyone to read over and over this sentence was in reply to Auto Attack damage. That is all.

Akikaze.1307:

Tyreal.5230:

Thankfully dodging isn’t the only form of mitigation. Perhaps your problem is that your to focused on paper based stats and not actual functionality. Once again, why are you being hit in the first place? Wanna know a simple trick to dealing with a mesmer GS auto attack? Dodge the first hits then use your teleport, blocks, invulns, stealth or get out of range, then attack back. Promise you they’ll stop once you start attacking back. Simple psychological strategy. Anything that hits you that hard will prioritize not getting hit back, in other words they aren’t attacking. A skill that does damage can also be used as a defensive tool. You don’t have to just defend or just attack at any given time. A really good player learns how to do both at once. The game will never be balanced and if it ever were it certainly wouldn’t be because sigils were removed.

Basically you’re suggesting to blow you defensive capabilities on simple auto attacks? Who do you think will win the battle: The person who just auto attacked you, proc some free damage (and still have retreat/defenses). Or the person who needs to possibly use their stalls/heals/defenses. If you want to talk about functionality, if you’re forced to retreat from multiple damage sigil procs on you (not the actual player casted skill), something’s not right about the game.

More balanced, not ‘the game will be balanced’. The main reason why the Celestial builds are so strong is because they cover all 3 key factors in conquest: mobility, damage and defense. A lot of their damage factor comes from their sigils procs. Taking away sigils alone would mean none of the following: Intelligence for crits, Battle for more might, energy for dodge upkeep, or weapon swap poison/bleed.

No, I gave you an example I could do the same thing whilst using a single dodge. That’s your problem right there, you think everything has one single function. Not only that you consider them to be ‘simple auto attacks’, why are are you underestimating anything that hits you as simple? Believe it or not but auto attacks are an actual skill on your bar just like the other 9 on your skill bar. Doesn’t mean they should be completely inferior. A full auto attack combo can do just as much damage as all of the 1-5 skills and that holds true for any class. Just because you use a block/invul etc. Doesn’t mean you will need another one ever again during your fight. In a fight against a zerker build which is what is being the describe with the numbers people are coming up with a fight wouldn’t last long enough for you to use said defensive skills again, or at least it shouldn’t. Zerker is do or die in the space of a few seconds. It’s either you or him. And yes, Celestial builds cover all 3 factors because they were well thought out. That’s why they were theorycrafted for sPvP and only work in sPvP, because they were created with only sPvP in mind.

Coulter.2315:

Tyreal.5230:

That’s why it’s called burst.

I just want everyone to read over and over this sentence was in reply to Auto Attack damage. That is all.

That’s fine if you want to quote only a portion of what I said but instead of complaining you should learn how to better yourself and come up with a way to deal with things that are difficult.

It’s disgusting that this is what GW2’s pvp has degraded into. I see more ‘OP Plz Nerf’ threads than ‘Advice Plz’ threads.

People always take it the wrong way instead of it’s literal meaning but I guess I’ll say it anyway. L2P

Tyreal.5230:

Coulter.2315:

Tyreal.5230:

That’s why it’s called burst.

I just want everyone to read over and over this sentence was in reply to Auto Attack damage. That is all.

That’s fine if you want to quote only a portion of what I said but instead of complaining you should learn how to better yourself and come up with a way to deal with things that are difficult.

It’s disgusting that this is what GW2’s pvp has degraded into. I see more ‘OP Plz Nerf’ threads than ‘Advice Plz’ threads.

People always take it the wrong way instead of it’s literal meaning but I guess I’ll say it anyway. L2P

It’s way more astounishing to see people like u claiming they know anything.

Should we start the L2P talk ?

In the old leaderboard i’ve always been top 100 in both solo q and team q, same for the poster you quoted.

I can’t even find u in team q while your best placement was “536” in NA solo q.

Guess who should learn to play.

Back on topic, there’s no way to avoid procs aside “neve being hit”, something obviously not possible.

Time to nerf them all.

Mrbig.8019:

Tyreal.5230:

Coulter.2315:

Tyreal.5230:

That’s why it’s called burst.

I just want everyone to read over and over this sentence was in reply to Auto Attack damage. That is all.

That’s fine if you want to quote only a portion of what I said but instead of complaining you should learn how to better yourself and come up with a way to deal with things that are difficult.

It’s disgusting that this is what GW2’s pvp has degraded into. I see more ‘OP Plz Nerf’ threads than ‘Advice Plz’ threads.

People always take it the wrong way instead of it’s literal meaning but I guess I’ll say it anyway. L2P

It’s way more astounishing to see people like u claiming they know anything.

Should we start the L2P talk ?

In the old leaderboard i’ve always been top 100 in both solo q and team q, same for the poster you quoted.

I can’t even find u in team q while your best placement was “536” in NA solo q.

Guess who should learn to play.

Back on topic, there’s no way to avoid procs aside “neve being hit”, something obviously not possible.

Time to nerf them all.

haha… THE LEADERBOARDS!? Okay, sir. I’m done here….. L2P and stop dying from ‘simple auto attacks’

I frankly don’t care how hard people try to make doing solid dps.

I said this on another thread, if you want to remove the randomness from sigils in order to guarantee me flat damage if I do something, the result for my case is you will be seeing your HP dropping faster.

All suggestions posted prior allow players to guarantee damage based on prior condi application, flanking, or planning. This will not make bursts weaker. It will help players that know what they are doing (who do not happen to be few and far between) prepare and accurately define how much damage they can do in a specific amount of time.

That 50% chance on top of a % for crit is being seen as a burden when it is actually a safeguard. People have no idea in hell how, when, or even if those things will proc on any given attack, so people that take it are basing a large amount of their dps on good luck; which could easily not deliver.

I welcome assertions that a stealthed thief (or insert class here that gets dps drop) that knows how much damage he can do, guaranteed, in one rotation if the rotation succeeds, will be any less potent against any class he knows cannot withstand the rotation.

Prepare for insta-melt.

bump for topic glitch.