Guild Wars 2

Hello, I would like to share with you all the new semi-official Forum class rules.

1. Necros are no longer to complain about nerfs to condition damage. Power necro can be viable after this meta. Open your mind and try new things.

2. Rangers need to stop complaining about their class. Open your mind and try new things. Also, spirit ranger is the easiest class in the game stop acting like its hard.

3. Thieves need to relax and stop being so defensive when someone says anything about their class. Dodging 80% of attacks while dealing damage and stealing boons isn’t balanced. Accept it even after a slight nerf your class will be meta experiment with builds. Cough cough s/p. Also you have one of the most powerful abilities in the game (sword 2, yes the port)

4. Wqrrqirs are not allowed to complain about the damage thieves do. Hammer crts for around the same damage (on stunned targets) that back stab does. I of had earth shaker crt for 4k+ plus on multiple people who weren’t glass cannon. Also healing signet needs a slight nerf stop defending it. Poison doesn’t counter if because of cleansing of ire. Power damage doesn’t counter it because burst take time to set up and you cannot damage a wqrrqir when you are stunned or they are blocking.

5. Eles you have the best burst in the game with s/d fresh air. Some of your complaints are justified but your class is better off then most of you think.

6. Engis your class is in an amazing state. Stop complaing about turrets in pvp. Hope they do not get a buff. If they do engineers will be come the spirit rangers of staying on a point.

7. Guards just eh keep being blue?

8. MESMERS are not allowed to ask for buffs. Your class is countered by condi damage that is OKAY. Everything should have a counter. When their is less condi damage and spam you will be taken in every tourny team.

Wow that was a bit harsh
There are some points where we share an opinion but I ahve to disagree on others…

I´ll just put something in for #6, because that´s actually the class I play. So it could be that I´m a bit biased :P
As I see it a lot engis, me included, are actually not begging for buffs to the turrets but several bugfixes to all the traits, fire rates and overcharges.
But I also dont want turrets to become too viable, like spirits on ranger. I don´t like when the screen gets all cluttered with them and other stuff on top.

Also I think you´re right about the spot engi has
Currently engineer is neither badly underpowered nor extremely overpowered. Depending on the build it has a rather high or normal skill floor. I think that´s quite the healthy state for a class.

Cero.5132:

Wow that was a bit harsh
There are some points where we share an opinion but I ahve to disagree on others…

I´ll just put something in for #6, because that´s actually the class I play. So it could be that I´m a bit biased :P
As I see it a lot engis, me included, are actually not begging for buffs to the turrets but several bugfixes to all the traits, fire rates and overcharges.
But I also dont want turrets to become too viable, like spirits on ranger. I don´t like when the screen gets all cluttered with them and other stuff on top.

Also I think you´re right about the spot engi has
Currently engineer is neither badly underpowered nor extremely overpowered. Depending on the build it has a rather high or normal skill floor. I think that´s quite the healthy state for a class.

Hey I don’t make the rules I just follow the ones I make. <3

kitten s.7421:

Cero.5132:

Wow that was a bit harsh
There are some points where we share an opinion but I ahve to disagree on others…

I´ll just put something in for #6, because that´s actually the class I play. So it could be that I´m a bit biased :P
As I see it a lot engis, me included, are actually not begging for buffs to the turrets but several bugfixes to all the traits, fire rates and overcharges.
But I also dont want turrets to become too viable, like spirits on ranger. I don´t like when the screen gets all cluttered with them and other stuff on top.

Also I think you´re right about the spot engi has
Currently engineer is neither badly underpowered nor extremely overpowered. Depending on the build it has a rather high or normal skill floor. I think that´s quite the healthy state for a class.

Hey I don’t make the rules I just follow the ones I make. <3

… Do I actually have to understand that logic?

No matter how I look at it, if everyone played each class equal amounts, then the class vs class thing in the forums will take a heavy hit.

I was absolutely nuts until I got 8 characters slots, one for each class.
ok, I wanna play this class now, (deletes character)
hmm…I feel like playing something else (deletes newly created character before it even gets to level 20)
woops, again. (deletes)
nah, i want to go back to this other random class (deletes)
Oh, the sky is blue (deletes)

People who only use one or two classes, or have a “main” character are extremely biased. You’ve got to look at every side equally instead of crying out “Devs don’t love us!” just like what all the other classes cry out at one time or another.

I laughed at the turret comment, yeah who needs them to attack anything anyways (net turret wont if you overcharge it when you place it)? Or attack as fast as they are supposed to do (none of them does)?

And i suppose that a ranger with mobile support spirits should be chosen over you know stationary offensive/defensive immobile structures with long recharges (and that are squishy as hell) that only scales with condition damage and healing power?

I know where all the AI hate comes from, but turrets are not the villain. They are stationary, dont block projectiles (ask an engi about this) have a hitbox the size of the sun when it comes to ground targeted AoE and cleave spam. They don’t move around like ants on coffee , they aren’t summoned at every dodgeroll and for most parts they aren’t even a threat.

Arenanet was so afraid of turrets actually being a viable mean of defending a point. Don’t get me wrong, but if you trait grandmaster deep into their traitline, and deep in others for the rest of the traits you would atleast expect it to be reliable defending in a 1vs1. The thing is i could do it with any other spec better and still be viable in more than that one situation.

Of course i know about passive play being bad, but i would like turrets to achieve a goal of being a strategical weapon that requires planning ahead. Other games have had turrets in that form and it creates an interesting dynamic between defenders. The most obvious way to do this would be to have different firing arcs on different weapons, the riffle turret might fire four times as fast as it does now but only do it in a 90 degree arc, meaning you can choose to cover that blind spot with maybe a short range but 360 flameturret on the cost of not covering a certain doorway and so on. Also if the overcharge could open up a “remote control” kit that allows us to activate and target different tactical utilities such as designating a spot for a rocket strike or deploying a projectile shield on the cost of a deactivated turret for X seconds. Something more active, because i like active play at the same time that i love when a plan works and seeing i set in action.

Well whatever im more of a multiple kit guy anyways.

magic fly.2041:

No matter how I look at it, if everyone played each class equal amounts, then the class vs class thing in the forums will take a heavy hit.

I was absolutely nuts until I got 8 characters slots, one for each class.
ok, I wanna play this class now, (deletes character)
hmm…I feel like playing something else (deletes newly created character before it even gets to level 20)
woops, again. (deletes)
nah, i want to go back to this other random class (deletes)
Oh, the sky is blue (deletes)

People who only use one or two classes, or have a “main” character are extremely biased. You’ve got to look at every side equally instead of crying out “Devs don’t love us!” just like what all the other classes cry out at one time or another.

That was pretty much me lol.

miriforst.1290:

I laughed at the turret comment, yeah who needs them to attack anything anyways (net turret wont if you overcharge it when you place it)? Or attack as fast as they are supposed to do (none of them does)?

And i suppose that a ranger with mobile support spirits should be chosen over you know stationary offensive/defensive immobile structures with long recharges (and that are squishy as hell) that only scales with condition damage and healing power?

I know where all the AI hate comes from, but turrets are not the villain. They are stationary, dont block projectiles (ask an engi about this) have a hitbox the size of the sun when it comes to ground targeted AoE and cleave spam. They don’t move around like ants on coffee , they aren’t summoned at every dodgeroll and for most parts they aren’t even a threat.

Arenanet was so afraid of turrets actually being a viable mean of defending a point. Don’t get me wrong, but if you trait grandmaster deep into their traitline, and deep in others for the rest of the traits you would atleast expect it to be reliable defending in a 1vs1. The thing is i could do it with any other spec better and still be viable in more than that one situation.

Of course i know about passive play being bad, but i would like turrets to achieve a goal of being a strategical weapon that requires planning ahead. Other games have had turrets in that form and it creates an interesting dynamic between defenders. The most obvious way to do this would be to have different firing arcs on different weapons, the riffle turret might fire four times as fast as it does now but only do it in a 90 degree arc, meaning you can choose to cover that blind spot with maybe a short range but 360 flameturret on the cost of not covering a certain doorway and so on. Also if the overcharge could open up a “remote control” kit that allows us to activate and target different tactical utilities such as designating a spot for a rocket strike or deploying a projectile shield on the cost of a deactivated turret for X seconds. Something more active, because i like active play at the same time that i love when a plan works and seeing i set in action.

Well whatever im more of a multiple kit guy anyways.

Turrets without bugs would be game breaking lol. Before they nerfed and changed net turret. You could permanently keep someone immobilized with rifle and the net turret. As cool as it sounds to be a camping engi its to much passive play. Engi isn’t a class based around passive play. Engi is a reactionary class. It turrets need more of an active role but that goes against the whole i am a turret thing. Its quite an issue lol.

I regret every decision that lead me to this thread

azuzephyr.7280:

I regret every decision that lead me to this thread

Hey these may be the new forums rules Anet just needs to sign off with them.

For Guardians you should have said : “Keep bunkering mid”

With all due respect, people need to let go of the healing signet hate. The problem is not the signet, it’s that most warrior have taken cleansing ire at 20 points which is directly tied to toughness and healing. That is where the strength of it comes from. Anyone who invests in toughness and healing should see dividends that reflect that. The power/precsion/crit dmg focused builds that annihilate healing signets tick heal are out of vogue and no one uses them. Glass canons just don’t do well in spvp anyone unless played in small population maps. In WvW (Which this is not the WvW forum) With trinkets it can begin to get excessive I agree, but in spvp, it is what it is. This paired with sigils of impact and a few melandru runes is why they can output fairly decent dmg and still survive fairly well with hammer/mace. If your heavily invested in toughness/healing and have traited to increase crit on stun and maximise stun damage, this is more an example of build success. You have made over self a well rounded build. It is not the warriors problem that nobody is focusing on in-your-face spike damage and instead focusing on sustain which is not cutting it for them in the end. If anything, if you moved cleansing ire to any other trait line, healing sig would now reflect that heavily because people who want to use it won’t be invested to at least 20 points in toughness/healing. Again..form follows function..you invest in healing/toughness…you have a lot of healing/toughness=you’re a lot harder to down now.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

With all due respect, people need to let go of the healing signet hate. The problem is not the signet, it’s that most warrior have taken cleansing ire at 20 points which is directly tied to toughness and healing. That is where the strength of it comes from. Anyone who invests in toughness and healing should see dividends that reflect that. The power/precsion/crit dmg focused builds that annihilate healing signets tick heal are out of vogue and no one uses them. Glass canons just don’t do well in spvp anyone unless played in small population maps. In WvW (Which this is not the WvW forum) With trinkets it can begin to get excessive I agree, but in spvp, it is what it is. This paired with sigils of impact and a few melandru runes is why they can output fairly decent dmg and still survive fairly well with hammer/mace. If your heavily invested in toughness/healing and have traited to increase crit on stun and maximise stun damage, this is more an example of build success. You have made over self a well rounded build. It is not the warriors problem that nobody is focusing on in-your-face spike damage and instead focusing on sustain which is not cutting it for them in the end. If anything, if you moved cleansing ire to any other trait line, healing sig would now reflect that heavily because people who want to use it won’t be invested to at least 20 points in toughness/healing. Again..form follows function..you invest in healing/toughness…you have a lot of healing/toughness=you’re a lot harder to down now.

Yes but you are right but with the healing signet you do not have to invest in healing for it to be amazing. But the thing that bothers me the most about it is this. One of the most important skills you can develop in this game is when to use your heal. The healing signet completely removes that skill. I mean look at the engis turret heal lol. You have to choice when to detonate for the 20 sec cd or drop it and pick it up for less healing and a shorter cd.

Do. Not. Excuse. Bugs.

You can keep people AOE immobilized with grasping vines on ranger, but of course you can destroy the roots as you can destroy the short range slow firing (tooltip says 10 sec fire rate for 3 sec immobilize but in reality its more like 13 sec), easily dodged net turret (did i mention their low hp and how they are obliterated by aoe not even touching them?). And every turret equipped is giving up a weapon, a decent stunbreak or a condition clear.

And besides i argued for more involved turrets (having manual control for different tasks) and adding hard drawbacks (such as only being able to fire in a certain direction leading you to choose between large firepower in a small area or covering the blindspots at the loss of concentrated fire) but making them a force to actually consider. Just for giggles i played a bit of tournament play with turrets. You know who died? The one running up to a point where i have decorated the lamp posts with turrets without a care in the world. They did not try to pick them off before the fight, they did not try to prevent the initial overcharge and they just preformed the basic chains and combos that they have always done, with their “active” play It resulted in a chain of rocket and nets keeping them to the ground and those who could mistformed/teleported/ran out of there when they got up and they did not return, or in case that they did they used the same bloody nonexistent strategy as before. you would think that the defensive turrets placed in positions to cover the point would enforce more care and planning. Interestingly the ones most carefull to counter my turrets was thieves, as they usually run around with little health. They tended to find the right angles and use the shortbow to remove my turrets (and its bouncing yay) which in turn leaves me with the choice of leaving the point and try knock him of that vantage point, often in spaces where my turrets can’t aid me and thus a lot of the traits don’t work or letting the turrets be destroyed and put on full recharge. He could also choose to leave the turrets and use them to land free cloak and daggers on if they are poorly placed. And this was before the nerf that cut their effectiveness in half.
As much as i like the thrill of improvised combat on the fly i also, maybe to an even greater kick love to carefully construct a plan of attack/defense and adding to that give space for improvisation and backup plans. when the enemy then walks into the pattern you predicted and make every mistake they could do in the situation because you force them to puts a smile on my face. So add more weaknesses, add more micromanagement and add more power to them. the entire thrill of them should be analyzing the area, finding the angles and preparing counters to people countering your counter. Oh and when it comes to reactivity, how more reactive is really elixir b, elixir h, grenades and so compared to traited out turrets? When you are defending your position you might choose between throwing up a turret on a ledge to help it survive and give you assisted firepower, or you could place it at your position and detonate it to disrupt the enemy on your tail or overcharge it and let it stay depending on its role. You can throw a turret to stop a stomp/rez, you can blast with them for comboing (should i detonate my healing turret for a larger spike heal or pick it up for a faster recharge). is the enemy standing with a object blocking the turrets los while firing away at you? knock him back or pressure him out of there. Or maybe it is good that he/she remains there as he/she might not be in a capping position. You will have fewer “okitten” buttons so you really have to stay on your toes and use every dodge to its full potential. The activeness is kinda already there, but the planning and strategy part is lacking. Crowd control is about shaping the flow of the battle into your liking, and turrets could be a part of that aspect, even if they in the current iteration are just yet another immobile, squishy, low damage, slow firing bugged AI unit.
If they don’t want to ever see them used, fine remove them and add more kits or something, but DONT say that they are supposed to never be used and they are there to fill up space for other useful things.
TL:DR Make them more active and engaging, promoting the strategical/tactial style of play as complement to 360 noscoping. The engineer is a lot about directing the battle, her/his role is to analyze the fight and push it in the direction the situation requires. It should not just be about “i throw grenades at people and explosions are cool”. And as well as all professions must be able to excel at the role they are given/have taken, so must utilities and weapons. Turrets role are to be stationary defensive structures. If they do not do that role well, change the or remove them and give us something that we are allowed to use.

^ This argument can be said for any skill though. Learning when you use your blocks/immobilize/condi clear etc etc all play an important role in how your build works. It is no different to making speed boosts non passive so players have to learn when to pop the swiftness and when just to wander along. I agree timed heals is a premium skill use to learn when to back up and when to push your red bar a bit further, but so is knowing when to snare and when to count how many times they have evaded and are low on vigor. As it stands with condi/sustain being the vogue, healing signet has risen to favour for now. This is perhaps the closet the warrior has been to being able to bunker to any degree. In a game that encouraged all professions can play all roles, then healing signet is making good on that statement currently when traited/paired in specific ways. For the record, I do have a bias. I like healing signet for it’s ticks and accept that if popped it does pathetic healing and has a longish cool down to justify it’s passive..but I have a low opinion of this flavour of the month stunlock build we’re all seeing. I’m a duel swords guy..cuz shields are for wimps.

Soz..my answer was in response to kitten s, but gave it a clean start so re: didn’t exceed letter count.

tbh i didn’t read anything you said miriforst.1290. But i agree with making turrets more active. If they are buffed and not made more active then engis have a spirit ranger build. You can deny it all you want but its true

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

^ This argument can be said for any skill though. Learning when you use your blocks/immobilize/condi clear etc etc all play an important role in how your build works. It is no different to making speed boosts non passive so players have to learn when to pop the swiftness and when just to wander along. I agree timed heals is a premium skill use to learn when to back up and when to push your red bar a bit further, but so is knowing when to snare and when to count how many times they have evaded and are low on vigor. As it stands with condi/sustain being the vogue, healing signet has risen to favour for now. This is perhaps the closet the warrior has been to being able to bunker to any degree. In a game that encouraged all professions can play all roles, then healing signet is making good on that statement currently when traited/paired in specific ways. For the record, I do have a bias. I like healing signet for it’s ticks and accept that if popped it does pathetic healing and has a longish cool down to justify it’s passive..but I have a low opinion of this flavour of the month stunlock build we’re all seeing. I’m a duel swords guy..cuz shields are for wimps.

It doesn’t really have any counter play and you need that in this game. You can poison but wqrrqirs have massive amounts of condi removal. So poison doesn’t work. YOu can burst. But burst requires set up and after you burst you need to reset your burst. You can inflict heavy damage yes. But After you do that damage when does the wqrrqir do? He stuns you and then he blocks all attacks and while you are stunned and being blocked. He regens all of his health. It really needs a slight healing nerf. But adrenal heal and mending need a buff to compensate.

These rules will be going into effect soon. So be reading them.