Guild Wars 2

suddenly, i have an idea for a “new” game mode for guild wars 2 sPvP so here i am!

so what is Annihilation Conquest game mode?
it is conquest mode but without any additional respawns.

the first team to completely wipe out the other team wins the match, even if the other team somehow scored more team points from capturing / holding points or / ascending spirit ball.

the main objective is to completely wipe out the other team. everyone have one life only, of course, they can revived downed allies, or defeated allies on the floor, but of course the other team would make reviving defeated allies impossible.

capturing points, ascending spirit ball would become secondary objectives.

the main objective is to be able to survive the opponents initial burst / condition barrage and then take them down, somehow.

if somehow both teams are unable to completely wipe out one another, then the first team to 500 points will win the match, or until the match duration of 8 minutes is up, the team with more points will win.

so would this kind of game mode be er … playable at all? or it would waste the server’s resource as the matches would quickly end, since there are no respawns, so players will be spending a lot of time staring at loading screens.

perhaps 5 vs 5 would not be suitable? kitten players well coordinated focus burst could easily bring down 1 target no matter how strong the defense etc?

what about 4 vs 4? just the right size?
3 vs 3? not enough players?

or this game mode simply will not work at all?
what kind of abuse could come out from this?

discuss!
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if this game mode is designed for 4 vs 4, then, for custom arena with max 20 players per room, there could be a special errr “street fighter – here comes a new challenger” game mode.

say, in a room full of 20 players, there would be a total of 5 teams with 4 players each. 2 teams will duke it out 4 vs 4, while the remaining 12 spectate.

once a team is wiped out, the 4 defeated are tossed back into the spectating crowd, then 4 random players are thrown to fight the winning team, hence “here comes a new challenger!” part.

to spice things up, the 10 seconds time before the match starts, the 12 spectators could bet on the outcome. the bets will be returned if no one bet on the losing team though.

for example,

blue vs red
justin bets 1 gold – blue
allie bets 1 gold – blue
jon bets 1 gold – blue
colin bets 1 gold – blue

evan best 1 gold – red
josh bets 1 gold – red

so, in our example,
total bets
blue – 4 gold
red – 2 gold

say, for example, anet tax (gold sink) 15% of the losers pot, the winning team takes 5% of the pot as a small bonus while the winners get 80% of the losers pot.

if blue team won
anet takes 2 × 0.15 = 0.30 gold as tax
blue team members get 2 × 0.05 = 0.025 gold as a small bonus
justin, allie, jon and colin gets 2 × 0.80 / 4 = 0.40 gold as their winning bonus

the 4 of them also gets their 1 gold back, so each of them would get 1.40 gold after the match ended.

evan and josh both loses 1 gold each since they bet on the losing team.

if red team won,
anet takes 4 × 0.15 = 0.60 gold as tax
red team members get 4 × 0.05 = 0.05 gold as a small bonus
evan and josh gets 4 × 0.80 / 2 = 1.60 gold as their winning bonus
evan and josh also gets their 1 gold back, so each of them would get 2.60 gold after the match ended.

justin, allie, jon and colin all loses their 1 gold each since they bet on the losing team.

if one team did not receive any bets at all, the bet is called off and the bets are returned.

for transparency purposes, the amount of bets placed on each team is shown to everyone in the game room.

and that ends our 10 seconds betting system example.

hmmmm would it work?

would people abuse it?
it is, hotjoin, custom arena, after all.

would this work in a tournament setting?

hmmmm no love for annihilation mode? : (

maybe the new court yard map could make good use of the annihilation mode with some additional enhancements.

I’d absolutely love this! I’ve realized that this is actually the thing I desire the most for this game!

I personally think that a 1-3 player teamsize is good; Preferably they should implement dueling in the open world, in which case the sweetspot is definitely 2-3 for me =)

I actually just made a thread that was pretty much about this, just less detailed: /forum/pvp/pvp/New-map-Best-fun-in-the-game/first#post3920790

Your betting system is a really good idea I think! At first I though that it would perhaps not attract so many people, but since there’s good gold to be made I think that some people definitely would get emerged in it. Thus, it would probably bring more focus to sPvP and also learn people to become “good spectators” since, at least I find it hard to keep track of what everyone is/should/might be doing =)

Phadde.7362:

I’d absolutely love this! I’ve realized that this is actually the thing I desire the most for this game!

I personally think that a 1-3 player teamsize is good; Preferably they should implement dueling in the open world, in which case the sweetspot is definitely 2-3 for me =)

I actually just made a thread that was pretty much about this, just less detailed: /forum/pvp/pvp/New-map-Best-fun-in-the-game/first#post3920790

Your betting system is a really good idea I think! At first I though that it would perhaps not attract so many people, but since there’s good gold to be made I think that some people definitely would get emerged in it. Thus, it would probably bring more focus to sPvP and also learn people to become “good spectators” since, at least I find it hard to keep track of what everyone is/should/might be doing =)

hi Phadde thanks for the feedback!
hmmm sorry for the late reply.
been only 3 days and this topic is buried 8 pages deep.

still no other feedback from other players.
i thought the people want new game modes?

anyway i will work on another game mode topic when i get the time.
probably a base assault mode modified from capture / push the flag game mode.

awful, no. leave this buried down 8 pages where it belongs.

Maverick Holix.1382:

awful, no. leave this buried down 8 pages where it belongs.

hi thanks for the feedback but could you elaborate how it is awful?

numbers is everything in teamfights (throws out your 5v5 version, 1 dies gg). even if lowered numbers used like 3v3, cap points would be useless. just might as well make it 3v3 tdm.

Maverick Holix.1382:

numbers is everything in teamfights (throws out your 5v5 version, 1 dies gg). even if lowered numbers used like 3v3, cap points would be useless. just might as well make it 3v3 tdm.

i see. true enough.
all right, what if, this is

3 vs 3 – Annihilation Conquest game mode?

a team of 3 versus a team of 3.

a time limit of 5 minutes to wipe the other team, no respawns, because, annihilation mode means everyone has 1 life only.

the capture points are in the existing conquest maps, because, just in case total team annihilation is not achieved in 5 minutes then team score is used to determine the winner?

btw each kill would be worth 200 points so scoring 2 team kills plus holding some capture points would hit the 500 points required for victory as well.

how does it sound like now?

The Conquest portion of it means almost nothing because playing a man down initially is almost impossible to overcome in a teamfight. The only time it would come into play is when you have a potential tie scenario. But if you break off the big fight first for nodes, your team starts wiping.

I don’t see the allure of team deathmatch or any variation of it (respawns or not), other than it’s simplistic. But that also makes it shallow and boring. TDM leads to build or group comp often determining the winner, with the battles revolving around the damage dealers constantly chasing around a player to force them to play defensive. To prevent that, conquest with respawns allows grouping and splitting to overcome that group comp disadvantage in a large team fight.

Exedore.6320:

The Conquest portion of it means almost nothing because playing a man down initially is almost impossible to overcome in a teamfight. The only time it would come into play is when you have a potential tie scenario. But if you break off the big fight first for nodes, your team starts wiping.

I don’t see the allure of team deathmatch or any variation of it (respawns or not), other than it’s simplistic. But that also makes it shallow and boring. TDM leads to build or group comp often determining the winner, with the battles revolving around the damage dealers constantly chasing around a player to force them to play defensive. To prevent that, conquest with respawns allows grouping and splitting to overcome that group comp disadvantage in a large team fight.

i see. thanks for the comprehensive feedback!

this explanation is also what i have seen throughout the year when it comes to explaining why TDM would not work, or, if it would work, it would be … rather stale and boring etc perhaps?

hmmm then, besides conquests mode, what other kind of game modes do you think there could be?

would a variant of push the flag base assault game mode work?

for example,
1. fight for bomb dispenser control in the middle
2. carry a bomb from the middle into the enemy’s base
3. blow open the gates of the enemy base with the bomb
4. alternatively, the team can also attempt to dps down the gate
5. gate health similar to the tower / keep gates in WvW before upgrades
6. bomb would away away 50% of the gate health
7. charge inside to kill the base lord

something like that.

or i should start a new topic for that and check for any feedbacks?

Sounds pretty interesting, but I think that shorter matches would be a lot more sutiable for this, the chances of ever having to go on till 500 points are incredibly slim imo

The Kurt.2518:

Sounds pretty interesting, but I think that shorter matches would be a lot more sutiable for this, the chances of ever having to go on till 500 points are incredibly slim imo

well, the scores for team kills could be adjusted based on the number of players

team kills points – Annihilation Conquest game mode
100 – 5 vs 5
125 – 4 vs 4
170 – 3 vs 3
250 – 2 vs 2

based on the above scoring system, the end score would still be over 500, since annihilation is about wiping the enemy team clean and no respawns.

unless they have a thief who shadow refuges over the defeated team member … O_O ???

Why conquest is so good and where many other formats fall short is that conquest doesn’t require you to win a specific fight. There’s a strategic level of setting up fights at multiple locations to give your team an advantage. You aren’t forced to engage in a full team vs team battle and aren’t required to consistently win it, as long as you can win elsewhere. The secondary mechanics are intended to aid in that.

Martyr (hold an item for points, which deals increasing damage to you over time) and Capture the Flag both quickly devolve into boring play. Push the Flag is essentially the same as Capture the Flag. There will be a specialized build, often with one best profession, that carries the item. They’ll have maybe one person to support them. In other games, it’s a healer, but in GW2, it would be a support role with CC and CC removal. The rest is damage trying to kill the object holder. The spirit watch orb-carrying warrior build archetype is an example of the problem these modes cause.

Assault style maps (one attacking team, one defending team with a series of chained objectives) are always interesting and fun, but hard to balance universally while remaining interesting. Each map will favor specialized builds and compositions. And they often require two rounds where attacker/defender swaps.

Anything with a reinforcement/respawn counter is problematic in an MMORPG. Unlike most FPS games where everyone is the same or mostly the same, some classes in MMOs have a higher mortality rate than others. They may be squishier for a reason, or just not have ways to run away. It hurts “fight until you win or die” classes.

Exedore.6320:

Why conquest is so good and where many other formats fall short is that conquest doesn’t require you to win a specific fight. There’s a strategic level of setting up fights at multiple locations to give your team an advantage. You aren’t forced to engage in a full team vs team battle and aren’t required to consistently win it, as long as you can win elsewhere. The secondary mechanics are intended to aid in that.

but … this also means conquest is
1. boring (i have seen various “boring” feedback from time to time)
2. hard (mr big & locuz often commented that conquest is hard)

i think many people are not happy with conquest because it promotes sumo wrestling bunker wars?

Martyr (hold an item for points, which deals increasing damage to you over time) and Capture the Flag both quickly devolve into boring play. Push the Flag is essentially the same as Capture the Flag. There will be a specialized build, often with one best profession, that carries the item. They’ll have maybe one person to support them. In other games, it’s a healer, but in GW2, it would be a support role with CC and CC removal. The rest is damage trying to kill the object holder. The spirit watch orb-carrying warrior build archetype is an example of the problem these modes cause.

Assault style maps (one attacking team, one defending team with a series of chained objectives) are always interesting and fun, but hard to balance universally while remaining interesting. Each map will favor specialized builds and compositions. And they often require two rounds where attacker/defender swaps.

Anything with a reinforcement/respawn counter is problematic in an MMORPG. Unlike most FPS games where everyone is the same or mostly the same, some classes in MMOs have a higher mortality rate than others. They may be squishier for a reason, or just not have ways to run away. It hurts “fight until you win or die” classes.

kitten! thanks again for the comprehensive feedback!
duh! does this mean, it is hopeless trying to come up with other game modes that is fun and balanced? : (

nvm, later i will try and come up with a push the flag type game mode based on the existing conquest maps. please do try and come to give some feedback if you have the time ya! thanks!

Exedore.6320:

Why conquest is so good and where many other formats fall short is that conquest doesn’t require you to win a specific fight. There’s a strategic level of setting up fights at multiple locations to give your team an advantage. You aren’t forced to engage in a full team vs team battle and aren’t required to consistently win it, as long as you can win elsewhere. The secondary mechanics are intended to aid in that.

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Anything with a reinforcement/respawn counter is problematic in an MMORPG. Unlike most FPS games where everyone is the same or mostly the same, some classes in MMOs have a higher mortality rate than others. They may be squishier for a reason, or just not have ways to run away. It hurts “fight until you win or die” classes.

Yet, a game mode that actually fully embraces the concept of besting other players in head-on combat is extremely appealing to me, and I’m sure to many more as well!

I really love a challenge and I really love MMO PvP, but I can not find enough enjoyment in Conquest to keep me into sPvP. When I played Courtyard, I realized what I’ve missed, which was what I described above.

Some love Dark Souls, some love Starcraft.

Yet, the Arena game mode from WoW was the most appreciated game mode whilst I was playing the game, and there was a significant difference in skill.
This is not meant as a perfect example; the classes where actually atrociously balanced within a rock-paper-scissors approach AND the combat was based on the Holy trinity.

The thing that I want to put forward is that it still was very skillbased (assuming you had the gear, hurrhurr) AND it was fairly clear to me that it was widely considered to be most enjoyable to play 2v2 entirely without healers (the Holy trinity didn’t really allow it with greater teamsizes) which I find fairly remarkable since it was (unlike GW2) a game of the Holy Trinity.
I don’t see how GW2 wouldn’t be able to do this much better.

Exedore.6320:

I don’t see the allure of team deathmatch or any variation of it (respawns or not), other than it’s simplistic. But that also makes it shallow and boring. TDM leads to build or group comp often determining the winner, with the battles revolving around the damage dealers constantly chasing around a player to force them to play defensive. To prevent that, conquest with respawns allows grouping and splitting to overcome that group comp disadvantage in a large team fight.

(I.e. 3v3 Annihilation:)
I wouldn’t call ones ability to interact and consider your teams total of ~70 skills + Traits while at the same time identify the build of the opposing team and interact, consider and respond with their teams total of ~70 skills + Traits as “shallow and boring”.

Surely, you could have a similar situation in Conquest. But I generally find that it’s more of a matter to outnumber the others or fight ‘til reinforcements arrive, except for the occational teamfights and one on one. (In my own, relatively limited experience though.) “Duels” in Conquest are rarely fair and quite often ends up with someone simply disengaging from the fight. (which you could do in Courtyard, but there isn’t very long to run and it’s quite likely that there are 3 people ready to catch you.)

The thing is that in a game mode that focuses entirely on combat, where your ability as a team to defeat the other team is all that’s put weight on, I think that the combat will become rather much more complex, in practice.

Conquest isn’t without its flaws, but they’re more about player sentiment than game balance. Here’s the big ones:
1. Some players want to “be a hero” and fight the other players. Having to guard nodes, especially side nodes, runs counter to that. The three node conquest system with secondary objectives minimizes that “inactive” time. Trying to consider the map as a whole and play the map rather than players runs counter to that idea well. However, players often forget that in high-level arena play, there is often a “staring contest” period while one side waits for the other to make a move and terrain matters for LoS defense.
2. Defensive play (bunkers) seem insurmountable. The “bad thief” mentality of expecting to burst anything down quickly by continually attacking it becomes frustrated when they can’t do that. However, bunker play can be countered most of the time by forcing a de-cap or attacking an alternate point. Secondary objectives are also aimed at lessening their impact.
3. Conquest doesn’t lend itself to easy presentation to an audience, or at least no one has figured out a good way to present it. There are often multiple fights going on simultaneously as well as the bigger picture of map strategy. It’s difficult to convey all that in a fast-paced game.

bump for new feedback

anyone would be interested in Annihilation Conquest?

it is conquest mode, but defeated players do not respawn.

the game is over when a team of 5 players are completely defeated.

Removing respawns from conquest and calling it conquest annihilation simply doesn’t function.. and you are proposing a gold betting feature to be implemented as well?

I think this is an ill-thought idea all around. If you want to have deathmatch style respawn, IE, disabled or a limited amount of respawns, you have to have appropriate objectives that aren’t going to simply be ignored.

How do you expect to play a conquest style game with rotations if the enemy can simply outnumber somebody and quickly snowball on a 5v4 advantage? One strategy quickly becomes the best option – roll around in a group of 5, stealthing frequently, and annihilate anybody trying to accomplish actual conquest objectives, and that’s game.

Edit: Ik you are sold on the idea, but if you have to Necro this post a 3rd time I think that should say something.

thanks for the feedback!

first, its called Annihilation Conquest and not Conquest Annihilation.
the main objective is Annihilation which is completely wipe out the party.

in the event that either party is unable to wipe out one another, then the extra points from capturing the points will determine the winner.