Guild Wars 2

Some ideas about a new general spvp infrastructure, without a complete revolution but a lot of important steps to improve what we have now

I really think a hot join rework can improve a lot spvp side of this game. Hot join is the main step for new people to spvp but now there are a lot of problems:

1_ farm servers. PVE people don’t do pvp and go directly in farm server to exp their reward track and rank. It was a big problem for rank farm server and generated the rank “undervalue” we have now. Simple solution: remove progression points in custom arena and let progression rank points in hot join regular servers, soloqueue and team queue.

2_ Spectator mode + auto balance: there is a big topic in the forum about this issue, people go in spectator mode to force autobalance and go in the winning team. There are many issues for this: match imbalanced, people quit, autobalance, people requit, go in spectator, other autobalance etc. = really bad match.

Hotjoin needs to be converted in a solo/team queue unranked version, with hidden mmr, hidden leaderboard and a fast queue. And it’s necessary a system to replace people if they are not ready when match starts (like WWW, when you are in queue and it’s your turn, you have X secs to click or you jump the queue). Match starts only if there are 5 vs 5 people ready to play.

Another important feature is spectator mode. People need to be able to see match like spectators, in game and in real time. This is very important because in this way people can learn, watching favorite class pov.

Spectator mode should be very important for soloqueue and team queue ranked matches, it’s the best way to see how good players play and learn from them but at least spectator mode needs to stay for unranked version(if it’s not possible to insert a delay ingame for ranked matches).

This rework is very important for a lot of reasons:

- it’s the true conquest mode, it’s a true match so people learn how to play conquest correctly.
- It’s the first step for new players, is a good environment, i’m pretty sure veterans player could appreciate this mode as well.
- Spectators mode is the key to learn the game.

In this first step, i’d use every maps (skyhammer and spirit included). There are always a lot of custom arenas available if people want to practice without spend time in queue, like we have now, but i’d use a official rotation server for this hotjoin unranked version.

So move on, after unranked version there is ranked version, solo queue and team queue. In solo queue, especially, there are problems like afk at beginning (you can solve with a replacement queue like WWW), skyhammer problem (ok, skyhammer and spirit only for unranked matches, simple solution) and a bad matchmaking because very few people play it. But why few people play soloqueue and teamqueue?

Because:
1. there is no a true first step for new players, they have troubles to understand the game, how to play correctly conquest. Solution: rework hotjoin in unranked matches + spectator mode available
2. No real incentive, exclusive reward a real progression. Solution: seasons, leagues and rewards linked (more or less like in www seasons). And in general add soloqueue and teamqueue pvp tracks exclusive, so people is motivated to join soloqueue and teamqueue where seasons are off.

Seasons and league should be very important like qualification for master tournaments like ToL and ToG and the other next major tournaments. In this way team queue would have a real importance.

New game mode for 2 and 3 people.

I think a new game mode should be for 2 or 3 people for many reasons. And i suggest DM 2vs2 or 3vs3 like we see now in ESL cup. This is for many reasons:
In this way you have only conquest like 5 men mode and there is no other game mode that create community split for 5 men queue.
- DM 2vs3 and 3vs2 is an active side of conquest mode. So people in 2 or 3 can train for a very important aspect of conquest mode and can improve. New teams can born and grow, and these new team can create a 5 men team for conquest mode.

I think with this model, with this progression we have more or less, everything we need and would be AN AMAZING SUPER STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION for the entire spvp scene. They are only ideas and for sure some ideas can be improved but would be a real good spvp infrastructure.

Thx Evan, i really like my suggestions can be helpful.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Thanks for the feedback. This definitely hits on the rising themes we’ve seen coming from the community.

Creating a sense of progression through the different PvP types is definitely something we want. Hotjoin is not structured enough for new players, while team and solo arena are too daunting.

Open spectating of rated matches requires a lot of back-end work to make it scale to any number of viewers and support delays to prevent abuse. It is also less of a priority than leagues and seasons. Especially since we still have authorized shoutcasters and streamers.

With the addition of custom arenas, and the fact they’re now sold via gold, players can create their own rooms if they so choose to have people swap teams randomly and just play for fun. What I would suggest is making hot-joins function similar to a ranked matches, in the sense that when a match starts, your not allowed to switch teams, you pick spectator, or player before the game starts (or if join a full game, you queue to play as you spectate and it auto-puts you on the team that has a spot open up to keep the game even and flowing.)

I feel the addition of a more structured, but casual scene will make hotjoins vastly more enjoyable, and a significantly better environment to both watch, and play in. Without the stress or pressure of winning that a ranked game puts on people.

The problem with hotjoin right now is it’s just a hot mess, in many other games, hot-join type matches are still run very similar to ranked matches, just with the ability to join and leave mid-match. The insane amount of freedom allowed for hotjoin makes it turn into a hot chaotic mess of nonsense, cheese, and stupidity. Unless the game auto-balances you, you shouldn’t be able to switch teams freely, etc, those options should be reserved for Custom Arenas.

I agree, and i think spectator mode for unranked match would be not a problem, the delay is not really important like in rated matches.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Thanks for the feedback. This definitely hits on the rising themes we’ve seen coming from the community.

Creating a sense of progression through the different PvP types is definitely something we want. Hotjoin is not structured enough for new players, while team and solo arena are too daunting.

Open spectating of rated matches requires a lot of back-end work to make it scale to any number of viewers and support delays to prevent abuse. It is also less of a priority than leagues and seasons. Especially since we still have authorized shoutcasters and streamers.

It would be really nice if you devs would really take into consideration what this guy said and implement progression system and some new pvp mode like he showed. It would be also nice to see some of these stuff on a reasonable time (aka not in 2 years from now) xD

Pvp really miss this stuff

Rename Hotjoin to “Practice Mode”, limiting progression and rewards to moderate amounts, and direct players to SoloQ. Then possibly gate TeamQ behind some kind of track for players to progress towards.

Then once Ladders and in-game tournaments are introduced, they can be unlocked alongside TeamQ in the same effect.

Zietlogik,
hot already already have very limited progression and moderate rewards when compared against solo arena and team arena.

also, the main feature of hotjoin, able to join in and leave anytime, must remain.
but, make it such that, once someone has left, that empty slot is filled up immediately by new players pressing the “play now” button.

I have been thinking about this a lot too, due to a recent experience with someone I was trying to help.

First the story: A player responded to a favor I asked for in Lion’s Arch map chat, and helped me out. He seemed to be a pretty avid PvE player. I started talking to the guy, and he mentioned that he liked fighting and did some PvP in WoW. He also said he wanted to WvW, but wanted to make sure his skills were good first. I suggested he try some PvP, as that really is the fastest way to get into fights and learn the fastest. Faster forward to the next day, and the guy was doing some hotjoins and complaining that it was just a stupid progression of people stacking teams to win. I suggested soloQ (this was my mistake at this point), as people can’t switch teams and there is a ranking system. I warned him his first few games might be rough as the system figures out his proper ranking, but he should end up with better matches afterwards. The guy had no idea what soloQ was, and was concerned that he would be able to continue his dungeon reward track in that game-mode. I told him that not only would it continue, but it would go faster (on average). So…the guy messages me a little while later, distraught at the verbal abuse he received in soloQ, from people who were upset that he didn’t really understand conquest. The guy got mad at me, and felt like I was setting him up for failure, despite my intention merely to help.

Now I share this story, because it gives a glimpse into the experience of a player who has some interest in PvP trying it out. Here are my take-aways:
1. New players hate hotjoin b/c of team-stacking. They also don’t really learn conquest game-mechanics.
2. New players have NO IDEA about tournaments (soloQ and teamQ’s) or how reward tracks are affected.
3. New players face a hostile atmosphere starting out in soloQ (and I can understand having a complete newbie on your team can be frustrating).

Part 2: My opinion on how to improve the system

Goal: Have some kind of pvp game-mode that people can jump-in and immediately start having fun (without lengthy requirements) to get them hooked for more in-depth fights.

Requirements:
- System should be loose enough to allow players to play in games with their friends, or come and go as they please
- Risk should be low for winning and losing, so that players focus mostly on having fun. Most players will still want to try and win, but removing significant WIN incentives can cut down on toxicity.
- System should be structured enough that players don’t feel like others are gaming the system and reducing the fun (i.e. team-stacking)

Proposal:
- At the start of the match, any number of players selects “join fight” or “watch.” Of those who join, a hidden pvp rating sorts them into teams similar to current soloQ games. If more than 2*nPlayersPerTeam try to join, it randomly selects the 2*nPlayersPerTeam who will participate at the start prior to sorting. This tries to make teams have close to even strength and combats stacking.
- When players leave, those in the “fight queue” are prompted to join (similar to wvw). The “fight queue” occurs when more players try to “join fight” at the start than 2*nPlayersPerTeam. Spectators may join the queue at any time, but are placed behind those who tried at the start.
- Match score and reward progression: Players reward progression only proceeds for pvp actions they undertake during the match. These points are gained for: standing on a point that you own that is being contested, taking part in a fight that nets a decapped and/or capped, killing a player, reviving a player, etc. Bonus points may be added at the end for high number of boons supplied, combos finished, healing done, or dps. Final match result has minimal impact on this progression in this queue.

Things to consider/try:
-Matches larger than 5v5. A lot of players enjoyed 8v8, and while it didn’t teach conquest very well, it may have been better for hooking new pvp-ers. Maybe 6v6 or 7v7 is better.

Alternative:
-Unranked queue with hidden rating. Players can’t queue with their friends, though, so this might not be best. Perhaps playing with friends should be reserved for custom arenas?

I can only ask why was open-spectating + replays of tournaments a thing in GW1 and not anymore in GW2?

Evan Lesh.3295:

Thanks for the feedback. This definitely hits on the rising themes we’ve seen coming from the community.

Creating a sense of progression through the different PvP types is definitely something we want. Hotjoin is not structured enough for new players, while team and solo arena are too daunting.

Open spectating of rated matches requires a lot of back-end work to make it scale to any number of viewers and support delays to prevent abuse. It is also less of a priority than leagues and seasons. Especially since we still have authorized shoutcasters and streamers.

Q.Q

Information… on… priorities…

T.T

So… happy…

I like the spectator mode/auto balance trick but I always stay on the losing side. I do it to even up the match. It would be good if autobalance just worked that way to begin with.

Players = 4v5 AND score >250 top player gets swapped.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Creating a sense of progression through the different PvP types is definitely something we want. Hotjoin is not structured enough for new players, while team and solo arena are too daunting.

Have you considered creating some special “newbie servers” for people to learn on? You;d have to restrict them to those servers until they reached a threshold (eg. rank 10), and keep everyone out.

I also really think you should consider the OP’s idea of creating a 3v3 elimination mode. The problem with pvp isn’t JUST the specific conquest mechanics like capturing points, preventing decaps, and all the secondary map mechanics – it’s also that the fights are incredibly faster than pve! Mobs in pve attack once every SEVERAL SECONDS! A thief in pvp can have you downed in the time it takes a pve mob to make their second attack! It’s a huge adjustment, and I think people would adjust faster if they didn’t need to also think about arbitrary map mechanics like standing in circles and turning them red to blue.
(Not that I think such a gamemode should be restricted to newbies. Just saying it might be good if they were restricted to TDM servers until they adjusted.)

Open spectating of rated matches requires a lot of back-end work to make it scale to any number of viewers and support delays to prevent abuse. It is also less of a priority than leagues and seasons. Especially since we still have authorized shoutcasters and streamers.

Twitch is a terrible way to watch matches though. Their interface is an abomination and their streaming quality terrible, even if you have a good connection. In-game match replays would be a lot less bandwidth-intensive for people on bad connections, and they could more easily follow the players they want to learn from. Moreover, you could take a leaf from DOTA2’s playbook and allow the audio from shoutcasters’ streams to play over the in-game replay – and that way the shoutcaster gets a viewer credited to his Twitch account too.

You had this technology in GW1. I don’t know how much your network infrastructure has changed and to what extent code from GW1 is reusable, but I’m sure some of the ways they figured out to solve those problems would be transferable to GW2, right? Most importantly, it would be a way to increase the visibility of PvP IN-GAME! I’ve been saying for months that tournaments should be advertised in-game (maybe an message either flashing across the screen or in your chat window when a tournament stream is about to start) – what better way to do that than to allow people to watch without even leaving the game? I know the real esports money is in advertising and the advertisers want views on external websites (since they can’t advertise in game), but unless you FIRST build a viewership you won’t get the views on external websites!

An unranked hotjoin version with hidden mmr and queue (and with 4vs5 issue fixed) is the natural place for new players and for veteran players too that don’t want to play rated matches for many reasons.

Being the first step for spvp, it’s supposed a lot of players play it, so there is a less variance in matchmaking and probably a better balance between teams. We need to consider the one of the main matchmaking problem now is that only few people play rated match, so it’s very difficult create a balanced matchmaking.
And with spectators mode, people can choose if watching (and learn) people play or play themself, but it’s a true conquest match 5vs5 without autobalance, so it’s supposed to be a decent game.

Anet could assign N extra servers, not in the unranked rotation, for people that want to jump immediately in a server without queue, for super mega brainless skirmish or a fast practice, servers without progression rank that is supposed to stay only for “official” servers (unranked a ranked matches).

Hello frands! Vee Wee here, #1 Engi NA and world first rank 80!

kitten this thread got a red name but Vee Wee’s PvP suggestions just got ignored! Nobody likes Vee Wee! A real shame because Vee Wee tries to be frandly with everybody!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

Very good ideas:
1. hot join as solo que with hidden mmr
2. Impoved spectator- free camera instead of fixed points of view.

ArrDee.2573:

Hello frands! Vee Wee here, #1 Engi NA and world first rank 80!

kitten this thread got a red name but Vee Wee’s PvP suggestions just got ignored! Nobody likes Vee Wee! A real shame because Vee Wee tries to be frandly with everybody!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

dude go away and stop whining.

As long as they still let ppl in and out quick join freely. Problem still there.
This is the reason I never join Qjoin for fun again after I learned how to play thief until Wolf.

Losing = change room
Wining = got kick to losing team as reward
New comer = wait until some guy on wining team get kick then spam left click to replace him.

Why someone see this kind of match management is ok?

TBH it worked ok in 8v8, because with 60% more player slots and less than half the spectator slots it was a lot harder to manipulate a match.

Yeah i agree, 8vs8 was a zerg fest BUT when people leave, often 9-10 people stay. Now with 5vs5 if people leave, the match is basically dead.

BUT

The problem is not 8vs8 or 5vs5, the problem is the attitude to leave. Of course in this hotjoin structure people are incentivated to leave because matches are 3vs2 or similar, people force autobalance, people stack on the same team, etc.

With un unranked version you solve a lot of these problems and i’d use always a dishonorable debuff for people who leave, in unranked matches too.

Because it’s not real important if it’s unranked or ranked matches, when people leave, they ruin the matches for other people, so no one find the match funny.

Of course, i repeat, this hotjoin structure is really bad so it’s really natural people leave.

Renaming hotjoin to Practice Mode would actually go a long way for such a low effort change.

Many new players click on the big shiny ARENA button because it’s more noticeable than hotjoin so you end up with a lot of inexperienced players giving and receiving a bad pvp experience in ranked.

I agree with some of these things.

I originally agreed with making hotjoin 5v5, “to teach players how conquest works,” but it doesn’t work in-practice. Hotjoin should be a casual pvp atmosphere for people to jump in, have-fun, and be encouraged to explore further. With that said, I would make the following changes:

- First, rank points/reward progression proceeds according to pvp actions you undertake (kills, points defended/assaulted/neutralized/captured, people ressed/stomped). You can cap the amount of points to prevent rank/reward farming.
- Next, if that doesn’t prevent team-stacking, players cannot pick their team, they can only select “join game” and are placed on a team (the one with the fewest players, or lowest points).
- If that is insufficient, hotjoin is increased to 6v6 or 7v7. 8v8 was a little bit too zergy, but 8v7 wasn’t too bad. 5v4 is completely unfun though. Going more to a mid-point might help fix this.
- If that is still insufficient, just scrap hotjoin and implement “unranked queue” with hidden mmr. Only private rooms are then available for scrims.

There are some trade-offs for each of these steps, and we can discuss them, but it doesn’t matter how well you meet certain requirements for the game-mode if its unfun for players to begin with.

Yeah, I really do think they need to bring back larger teams, at least for Hotjoin. It’s been noted before that a 4v5 match is a 30% loss in power for the shorthanded team, but a 7v8 team is only a 13% loss in power, meaning it’s still possible for a 7v8 match to be fairly close if there are more skilled/experienced people on the shorthanded team.

just automatically shove players into teams.

for example, if someone decides to enter spectator mode mid match, their slot is immediately taken up by another player who clicks “play now” from outside the room.

That would only work if there are sufficient people clicking “Play Now” though. How many of you guys actually use that button? I always go into specific arenas that are less than 10/20.

Zaxares.5419:

That would only work if there are sufficient people clicking “Play Now” though. How many of you guys actually use that button? I always go into specific arenas that are less than 10/20.

what if, the game browser only shows player owned custom arenas, and the “play now” button is the only way to join official anet hosted custom arenas?

friends still can join their friends via the join friend in pvp button.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Zaxares.5419:

That would only work if there are sufficient people clicking “Play Now” though. How many of you guys actually use that button? I always go into specific arenas that are less than 10/20.

what if, the game browser only shows player owned custom arenas, and the “play now” button is the only way to join official anet hosted custom arenas?

friends still can join their friends via the join friend in pvp button.

This is the way, basically play now become the new soloqueue unranked matches.

And in the game browser, you could find the server list with official servers (people get in with play now button) but you can join only like a spectator and other custom servers (not in the official rotation with no progression rank) where you can join like player or spectator for fast practice.

and hotjoin leavers when losing lot of points then will auto balance! so annoying how can u guys fix that?

Coloxeus.3480:

and hotjoin leavers when losing lot of points then will auto balance! so annoying how can u guys fix that?

You can’t avoid people leave the match, it’s basically impossible, but you can use penalty (like dishonorable debuff) to discourage this behaviour. If you quit the game, you lose automatically the match, so your hidden mmr too decreases.

But for this reason hotjoin needs to be converted in a unranked solo/teamqueue with hidden mmr.

In general, auto-balance is a really bad system because the match is already ruined, so you solve nothing with auto-balance, you need to fix the problem at beginning, creating an equilibrated match.

Coloxeus.3480:

and hotjoin leavers when losing lot of points then will auto balance! so annoying how can u guys fix that?

Perhaps advertise that rank points and reward progression doesn’t happen until the end of a match. Seeing as many hot-joiners are very concerned with this, it could be an effective strategy.

You could make it even better by having win/loss matter little for hotjoin rank/reward progression, but instead reward players for actions they do in-match, plus (maybe) a completed-game bonus.

From this topic

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Leavers-in-soloq-enough-is-enough/first#post4358639

Good suggestion to fix 4vs5 issues.

An extract:

“And now, the proposal:
Anet, do you know of the existance of a very simple idea called “team balancing”? It’s used even in small games (community wise) like Natural Selection 2. It’s so simple it’s mindblowing: when a team has 1 less player than the opposite team, when one player of the opposite team gets killed, he doesn’t respawn, he stays frozen in a limbo, waiting for another player of his/her team to get killed so he can respawn (thus, creating a simple respawn queue).”

Very good post, i hope this gets more attention. I actually wish this was taken straight from anets “to do list”.