Guild Wars 2

Clearly I do not understand so I am asking the community. A lot of people say the new maps (Temple, Spirit Watch, Sky Hammer) take no skill while the old maps (Foefire, Forest, Kyhlo) do. It seems to me thakittens pretty “skilled” to CC someone at the top buff on temple, at the orb to then cap it or delay the runner, and to CC people off the ledges on skyhammer. Seems like one would have to wait out their stability and dodge their CC in the meantime. However, skill for the old maps seems to be dropping aoe on point, dodging high damage abilities, and focusing fire so that the enemy cannot use his “skill” to survive because there is just too much damage. Seems to me both things are pretty viable and would require the same amount of “skill” to be successful at. Sadly, most say that the new maps require no “skill” and I don’t understand that. If one is “skilled” then why did they get knocked off the edge? Were they not good enough to dodge the enemy’s CC? Were they not good enough to stay alive while their enemy had stability? These seems like an example of the dead players lacking “skill” not the living players lacking “skill”. So where does the argument that maps like these require no “skill” come from?

Seems to me that you either win or lose fights depending on 2 things: skill or superior builds regardless of how its done.

Yeah I find this new map requires much more timing and positioning. I’d say it increased the skill cap.

Players are getting instagibbed because they don’t know how to position because they never had a map that required it before. Then they cry on the Forums about it.

Nothing new.

Nik Rane.6431:

Players are getting instagibbed because they don’t know how to position because they never had a map that required it before. Then they cry on the Forums about it.

Nothing new.

Uh, instagibbing probably doesnt belong in a game like this period.

Me personally I could care less what maps people think require skill. Fact is, in a conquest/control gametype, aoe wins. Aoe cleave, aoe conditions, hell even aoe screen pollution (mesmer-necro pets). This just isnt fun and is way out of control.

Played this map for a few minutes. Seems to take all the annoying aspects of existing maps and expand upon them.

People who seriously believe that positioning was/is not important in any PvP game are just ignorant.
Especially in point capture mode maps.

While asking if new map needs or do not need skills, you must first ask yourself what is to be “skilled” at gw2.
For me, and i might be wrong, a skilled pvp player must have a good knowledge of game mechanism, knowledge of the different builds and how to counter them, teamplay and positionning on the map to outnumber foes.
In game mechanism you can include dodging high dmg/cc skills, using your cds wisely or good positionning in teamfights according to your role in the team.

Now in the first three map, those mechanism are really useful because you ve got nearly no way to instakill anyone so you must fight and use them. The secondaries objectives are also not overwhelming : you can always destroy treb, defend lord or steal chieftain and svanir with 1 or 2 ppl.

Now in the new maps. Problem is that not matter how skill you are, you can win by exploiting the secondary objectives just as pve players run dongeons with 4 warrior 1 mesmers and wins. For example on spirit watch, you can win with one point, orb and some decent cc. Temple is a little map, so splitting isn t as efficient and skyhammer is land of cc. Temple and spirit watch are still playable imo but skyhammer is too much

No matter how skilled you can be, they are so much cc in this game that they overcome amount of stability/dodges you can pull off. Usually it s not a problem because you have mates which can revive you or counter pressure when you re finally getting cc but in skyhammer getting knock out means instadeath ! Once you get cc once your basically dead and nobody can do anything about it, not you nor your team.
And this can’t be skills, nor e-sport or a team game so it s basically only a fun map where you pull out your troll build and troll the hell out of ppl !

Eurantien.4632:

Clearly I do not understand so I am asking the community. A lot of people say the new maps (Temple, Spirit Watch, Sky Hammer) take no skill while the old maps (Foefire, Forest, Kyhlo) do. It seems to me thakittens pretty “skilled” to CC someone at the top buff on temple, at the orb to then cap it or delay the runner, and to CC people off the ledges on skyhammer. Seems like one would have to wait out their stability and dodge their CC in the meantime. However, skill for the old maps seems to be dropping aoe on point, dodging high damage abilities, and focusing fire so that the enemy cannot use his “skill” to survive because there is just too much damage. Seems to me both things are pretty viable and would require the same amount of “skill” to be successful at. Sadly, most say that the new maps require no “skill” and I don’t understand that. If one is “skilled” then why did they get knocked off the edge? Were they not good enough to dodge the enemy’s CC? Were they not good enough to stay alive while their enemy had stability? These seems like an example of the dead players lacking “skill” not the living players lacking “skill”. So where does the argument that maps like these require no “skill” come from?

Seems to me that you either win or lose fights depending on 2 things: skill or superior builds regardless of how its done.

Lowest skill map is Legacy of Foefire > Zerg Mid ask the pro player to stay on close. Then Forest. The Kyhlo (because the map is too smal for any good strategy instead of zerging 2 points).

But then come Temple it is the child of Forest and Kyhlo = small map with aoes and extra control points.(AoE fest with some pulling/timiings).

Then come spirit watch(too bad bugged) – the map that propose us the 4 poiints spliting – But wait! We need different builds for this map – screw it! None want to roll new build. Everyone want to play wow-style-1hero-life.

And now we have Skyhammer! The map that loves spliting, loves fast paced movements/jumping etc,loves CC and heavy timings. But again i need another build. Not AOE fest that i played yesterday at Legacy. How to solve? > go to forum whine and ask to remove from tourney rotation, so we can have 4 maps that we don’t need to change anything.

Rly? thats what you want from this game? My grandma is more flexible. She has some diversity from year to year when making her garden.

Capricorn is a new or old map? Cause it is crappy which means it must require no skill – so it must be a new map?

Also Temple is still in rotation. Don’t see a lot of people complaining here… and afaikt it is one of the newer maps.

I think Temple is the best map. You have many objectives – also the secondary objectives force you to go to more places (8:30 not only be at top OR down but at both buffs).

Yes you can knock them down there… probably no whining cause you don’t die from falling down in the water?

Temple of the Silent Storm is a great map. The vertical nature, secondary mechanic, and closer points make not playing center viable. But if you have people sitting on points, you may give up buffs. It’s a great mechanic. One of the reasons it wasn’t used before in player-hosted tournaments was the engineer double heal bug (now fixed). You might see it being hosted in competitive tournaments now.

Aside from bugs on Spirit Watch, it just doesn’t work well as a competitive map. The vertical nature itself isn’t bad, though the center point placement has issues. What breaks it beyond repair for competitive play is the orb running mechanic. There are so many special rules that favor certain professions and certain builds. Leaps/charges work, but teleports don’t, etc. and movement speed boosts are pretty much required and not all professions have good access to them.

I’m still undecided on Skyhammer. The cannon mechanic, including the inability to dodge it, makes it great for forcing a bunker off a point and allowing the point to be neutralized. However, it could also secure victory for the winning team by giving a friendly bunker unparalleled area denial. The death fall mechanic adds another level of skill for when to break the glass and when to use knockbacks, etc. However, it may be a little too plentiful. That’s not hard to adjust by making platforms bigger or removing some of the glass. Also, Fear may be a little too good here, as it’s instant-cast (very hard to avoid) and moves people further compared to most knockbacks. Launch skills (longer knockback and can’t stun break instantly) are usually more telegraphed.

Not sure how skilled picking up a guard and spamming stability is. Also not sure how skilled chain fearing someone to death is (making necros have to do less work to win? sweet).

“Hi, I can’t kill you in a straight fight, but I’m gonna spam my fears on you and make you fall, lol pwned n00b, kkthxbye”

I don’t understand how people can hate on this map. Many levels to move along, new builds needed (stability and knockback heavy) a really crazily overpowered secondary mechanic that can change the game, I love it.

papaganoosh.7908:

I don’t understand how people can hate on this map. Many levels to move along, new builds needed (stability and knockback heavy) a really crazily overpowered secondary mechanic that can change the game, I love it.

It’s not a competitive map. There aren’t many level to move along. Just bring all the cc and stability you can get. That’s it. Oh, and maybe stealth too.

Whilst I understand where you are coming from, why can’t it be a competitive map? Because it doesn’t fit into the standard Foefire/Forest/Khylo game type that came first? People always whine about wanting more game modes, well this is pretty close to a different game mode seeing as you will have to bring totally different builds for it.

I agree that you could look at it in the way that it is whoever has the most CC and Stability should win, but in my eyes that isn’t much different to if you boil down the current meta to “whoever brings the most Condi damage and peels”.

Obviously this is a very basic way at looking at it and to be honest I’m just trying to stimulate debate about the map as it really seems to split the community marmite style (love/hate).

edit – by levels I meant physical levels, not skill levels. just to clarify.

papaganoosh.7908:

Whilst I understand where you are coming from, why can’t it be a competitive map? Because it doesn’t fit into the standard Foefire/Forest/Khylo game type that came first? People always whine about wanting more game modes, well this is pretty close to a different game mode seeing as you will have to bring totally different builds for it.

I agree that you could look at it in the way that it is whoever has the most CC and Stability should win, but in my eyes that isn’t much different to if you boil down the current meta to “whoever brings the most Condi damage and peels”.

Obviously this is a very basic way at looking at it and to be honest I’m just trying to stimulate debate about the map as it really seems to split the community marmite style (love/hate).

edit – by levels I meant physical levels, not skill levels. just to clarify.

True, I guess the thing that gets me the most is when the cc/stability favored classes win the battle at canon, not only did they get a huge advantage in kills, but they have access to the skyhammer to nuke battles. Not a huge fan of giving huge bonuses to victors. tl;dr get rid of that OP secondary objective or make it dodgeable and not as worthwhile to use.

papaganoosh.7908:

I don’t understand how people can hate on this map. Many levels to move along, new builds needed (stability and knockback heavy) a really crazily overpowered secondary mechanic that can change the game, I love it.

The problem is that new builds are needed because only a few specs work. Every class is clocked into the spec that has the MOST possible CC. Warriors are better off going full tank spec with hammer + rifle with cheese one shot knockbacks than they are playing a balanced build designed to DEFEAT the opponent.

That’s the main problem with this map…it rewards players for spamming knockback + fear + immob as fast as they possibly can. It’s MUCH harder to position to counter knockbacks or try to play a traditional build in which you DEFEAT the opponent than it is to run a cheese build that uses massed CC to one-shot the opponent.

Totally agree with both of you. It is a bum fight and whoever brings the most knockback is going to win. Still quite fun though in my eyes (mainly because I’m an angry Warrior that finally sees a tiny little area in which we may do well)

Some people act like dodging and rolling out of a CC is completly manageable, but a lot of CC may have a cast time, that does not mean the casting is forecasted or has a significant animation to it. Lets be realistic here, sure I can bring Stand your ground, and Hallowed Ground, but that leaves me with no Save yourself, or any other utility I prefer for my build. Sure I can have all the stability I want, but thats putting all my eggs in one basket. I would need to sacrifice something to temporarily mitigate, what seems to be almost spammable by other classes.

TRoopEr.5364:

Eurantien.4632:

Clearly I do not understand so I am asking the community. A lot of people say the new maps (Temple, Spirit Watch, Sky Hammer) take no skill while the old maps (Foefire, Forest, Kyhlo) do. It seems to me thakittens pretty “skilled” to CC someone at the top buff on temple, at the orb to then cap it or delay the runner, and to CC people off the ledges on skyhammer. Seems like one would have to wait out their stability and dodge their CC in the meantime. However, skill for the old maps seems to be dropping aoe on point, dodging high damage abilities, and focusing fire so that the enemy cannot use his “skill” to survive because there is just too much damage. Seems to me both things are pretty viable and would require the same amount of “skill” to be successful at. Sadly, most say that the new maps require no “skill” and I don’t understand that. If one is “skilled” then why did they get knocked off the edge? Were they not good enough to dodge the enemy’s CC? Were they not good enough to stay alive while their enemy had stability? These seems like an example of the dead players lacking “skill” not the living players lacking “skill”. So where does the argument that maps like these require no “skill” come from?

Seems to me that you either win or lose fights depending on 2 things: skill or superior builds regardless of how its done.

Lowest skill map is Legacy of Foefire > Zerg Mid ask the pro player to stay on close. Then Forest. The Kyhlo (because the map is too smal for any good strategy instead of zerging 2 points).

But then come Temple it is the child of Forest and Kyhlo = small map with aoes and extra control points.(AoE fest with some pulling/timiings).

Then come spirit watch(too bad bugged) – the map that propose us the 4 poiints spliting – But wait! We need different builds for this map – screw it! None want to roll new build. Everyone want to play wow-style-1hero-life.

And now we have Skyhammer! The map that loves spliting, loves fast paced movements/jumping etc,loves CC and heavy timings. But again i need another build. Not AOE fest that i played yesterday at Legacy. How to solve? > go to forum whine and ask to remove from tourney rotation, so we can have 4 maps that we don’t need to change anything.

Rly? thats what you want from this game? My grandma is more flexible. She has some diversity from year to year when making her garden.

Clearly your answer to every game mode is to give every character a 1 shot mechanic and tell everyone to l2dodge when they get caught. There are elements of the map that are good and promotes strategic play. Then there are mechanics that are complete non-sense. One shot mechanics should not be in any game, but if you are of the opinion they should be then why stop with kb’s? Just give everyone a one button kill shot.

Skyhammer is not PvP it is PvM. Player versus Map. You don’t truly outplay a person if you just wait for their balance to drop and then fear bomb or knock them off a ledge.

PS – Im a Necro, guardian, warrior.

TBH with a few tweaks it might work a bit better as a proper map.

Larger cooldown on Cannon
The ability to dodge the Cannon
When you get knocked off the map completely you don’t die, instead you float/warp/teleport for five seconds then get ported somewhere remote/your spawn

I love it as it is. It is hilarious to troll hotjoin or to play with your mates in a custom arena, but a proper tourny map it is not.

Problems:

• Longer respawn timer due to fall time in some cases adding close to 5 seconds.
• Some classes survive the fall and have to run and find a wurm to kill them.
• Excessive amounts of knockbacks AND pulls means no positioning is safe.
• Skyhammer is unavoidable w/ even one person around you and minimal communication you get an instant kill.
• Makes this map class discriminatory against non-heavy CC based classes. Best Classes being Guard (because they are still irreplaceable in the bunker position with great condi removal, heals, and blocks, CC), Necros, CC warriors and engies. The rest of the classes should not be taken due to low uptime of stability and will be instant killed or not an adequate amount of push/pulls.
• Map has very poor visibility with the recessed side nodes and while you can take the high ground to “see” what is coming getting up there can get your node decap’d instantly.
• Glass on side nodes is too close to points and there is too much of it, I was surprised they didn’t make the nodes glass just to be yolo so when skyhammer fired everyone dies.
• Perhaps instead of everyone else’s balance idea for skyhammer (make it dodgeable etc) why not just make it hit both teams. At least this way it would have to be used wisely requiring some thought put into it.

ArcTheFallen.7682:

Not sure how skilled picking up a guard and spamming stability is. Also not sure how skilled chain fearing someone to death is (making necros have to do less work to win? sweet).

boon rip. or have someone boon rip for you. or, you know, wait.

and if you’re getting chain feared out of the map, you shouldn’t have had your back against the bottomless pit to begin with. can’t chain fear someone off the arena if they got their backs against the wall.

Taym.8326:

• Perhaps instead of everyone else’s balance idea for skyhammer (make it dodgeable etc) why not just make it hit both teams. At least this way it would have to be used wisely requiring some thought put into it.

that is just insane. no serious player would ever use it, because there is no practical way to use the skyhammer to take down a player on its own (unless that player is really stupid) and make good use of that dead player (to capture the point they were sitting on, for example). and as a double, you’d get troll players hitting allies on purpose.

BrunoBRS.5178:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

Not sure how skilled picking up a guard and spamming stability is. Also not sure how skilled chain fearing someone to death is (making necros have to do less work to win? sweet).

boon rip. or have someone boon rip for you. or, you know, wait.

and if you’re getting chain feared out of the map, you shouldn’t have had your back against the bottomless pit to begin with. can’t chain fear someone off the arena if they got their backs against the wall.

Right, makes way more sense to stand next to a wall and eat all that big spam AoE from the staff necros and bomb engis.

Errant Venture.9371:

BrunoBRS.5178:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

Not sure how skilled picking up a guard and spamming stability is. Also not sure how skilled chain fearing someone to death is (making necros have to do less work to win? sweet).

boon rip. or have someone boon rip for you. or, you know, wait.

and if you’re getting chain feared out of the map, you shouldn’t have had your back against the bottomless pit to begin with. can’t chain fear someone off the arena if they got their backs against the wall.

Right, makes way more sense to stand next to a wall and eat all that big spam AoE from the staff necros and bomb engis.

no one said anything about standing.

WASD are your friends.

oh and don’t forget, the other team isn’t the only one with access to CC! amazing, right? who knew you could try yourself the strategies you claim are OP?

So I purposely stood in front of a glass pane, spectral grasped a chick on the glass then dagger 3’d her. Lol

Love terrormancer on this map so many fears, and ways to run people off the edge.

Hope you got lots of stability!

People not getting killed by falling down seems like a bug. Should be fixed. Maybe instead of dying a port back at full health to your WP… with a timer… but shorter timer than respawn timer after a “real kill”.

lilstev.3498:

So I purposely stood in front of a glass pane, spectral grasped a chick on the glass then dagger 3’d her. Lol

Love terrormancer on this map so many fears, and ways to run people off the edge.

Hope you got lots of stability!

For fun you could also spectral walk => stand on glass pane => spectral grasp => fall with them but then teleport back.

Nik Rane.6431:

Players are getting instagibbed because they don’t know how to position because they never had a map that required it before. Then they cry on the Forums about it.

Nothing new.

All you need to do is hug the door, then you can’t be feared off the ledge. Then it’s about having ranged knockbacks or fears or not. If you do – you win, if you don’t… well, you know.

lilstev.3498:

So I purposely stood in front of a glass pane, spectral grasped a chick on the glass then dagger 3’d her. Lol

Love terrormancer on this map so many fears, and ways to run people off the edge.

Hope you got lots of stability!

This type of people are the only ones who like it. Necros and Engies, who like easy kills and being overpowered.

YuiRS.8129:

lilstev.3498:

So I purposely stood in front of a glass pane, spectral grasped a chick on the glass then dagger 3’d her. Lol

Love terrormancer on this map so many fears, and ways to run people off the edge.

Hope you got lots of stability!

This type of people are the only ones who like it. Necros and Engies, who like easy kills and being overpowered.

i’m a thief and i like it. the expression on the guardian’s face upon realizing he just lost his stability and is now being pulled to his death is priceless.

ArcTheFallen.7682:

Not sure how skilled picking up a guard and spamming stability is. Also not sure how skilled chain fearing someone to death is (making necros have to do less work to win? sweet).

Stability can be removed/corrupted by pretty much any profession.
Also, there is no way to have 100% stability uptime.

Also, if you got chainfeared to death, you are doing everything incredibly wrong because you didn’t:
- Brought an istant condition removal, which every profession have access to.
- Brought a proper stunbreaker
- Had a good positioning
- Had stability on when you was in a dangerous spot
- Pushed off the Necro first
- Prevented the fear to be applied with any sort of blocks/invulnerability
- Teleported away from the ledge you fell from.

Which leads to the fact that you deserved to die because you were outplayed. Plain and simple.
Chain fear is extremely easy to counter, pretty much because Fear is a condition other than a control effect.

sorrow.2364:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

Not sure how skilled picking up a guard and spamming stability is. Also not sure how skilled chain fearing someone to death is (making necros have to do less work to win? sweet).

Stability can be removed/corrupted by pretty much any profession.
Also, there is no way to have 100% stability uptime.

Also, if you got chainfeared to death, you are doing everything incredibly wrong because you didn’t:
- Brought an istant condition removal, which every profession have access to.
- Brought a proper stunbreaker
- Had a good positioning
- Had stability on when you was in a dangerous spot
- Pushed off the Necro first
- Prevented the fear to be applied with any sort of blocks/invulnerability
- Teleported away from the ledge you fell from.

Which leads to the fact that you deserved to die because you was outplayed. Plain and simple.
Chain fear is extremely easy to counter, pretty much because Fear is a condition other than a control effect.

True about the necro. I had those issues on my thief which isn’t geared towards taking down a necro at canon. However, still think stability for guards give them too much of an edge. It’s not up 100% but long enough to outlast any non-guard in addition to being able to cc them once their stability is up. There are boon removals but it’s not as reliable. And guards can block/dodge them too. Guards are more likely to cc a necro or someone who have boon removal by the time they can get stability off and cc back. Given that both players are equally skilled, classes that have more access to stability by default given them an upperhand at the skyhammer which can determine node fights.

ArcTheFallen.7682:

True about the necro. I had those issues on my thief which isn’t geared towards taking down a necro at canon. However, still think stability for guards give them too much of an edge. It’s not up 100% but long enough to outlast any non-guard in addition to being able to cc them once their stability is up. There are boon removals but it’s not as reliable. And guards can block/dodge them too. Guards are more likely to cc a necro or someone who have boon removal by the time they can get stability off and cc back. Given that both players are equally skilled, classes that have more access to stability by default given them an upperhand at the skyhammer which can determine node fights.

That’s why I love Well of Corruption in Skyhammer.
Unblockable AoE boon corruption
You might imagine how fun is to drop WoC on top of their Hallowed Ground.

Also, keep in mind that most boon removals are unblockable because of Aegis.
A Thief, for instance, can steal their stability and pull them off with scorpion wire + trap.

sorrow.2364:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

True about the necro. I had those issues on my thief which isn’t geared towards taking down a necro at canon. However, still think stability for guards give them too much of an edge. It’s not up 100% but long enough to outlast any non-guard in addition to being able to cc them once their stability is up. There are boon removals but it’s not as reliable. And guards can block/dodge them too. Guards are more likely to cc a necro or someone who have boon removal by the time they can get stability off and cc back. Given that both players are equally skilled, classes that have more access to stability by default given them an upperhand at the skyhammer which can determine node fights.

That’s why I love Well of Corruption in Skyhammer.
Unblockable boon removal

Well I’d have to time that hallowed ground then! :P But it’d be a fun fight to see. Actually, I need to test that lol. Interesting..

sorrow.2364:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

True about the necro. I had those issues on my thief which isn’t geared towards taking down a necro at canon. However, still think stability for guards give them too much of an edge. It’s not up 100% but long enough to outlast any non-guard in addition to being able to cc them once their stability is up. There are boon removals but it’s not as reliable. And guards can block/dodge them too. Guards are more likely to cc a necro or someone who have boon removal by the time they can get stability off and cc back. Given that both players are equally skilled, classes that have more access to stability by default given them an upperhand at the skyhammer which can determine node fights.

That’s why I love Well of Corruption in Skyhammer.
Unblockable AoE boon corruption
You might imagine how fun is to drop WoC on top of their Hallowed Ground.

Also, keep in mind that most boon removals are unblockable because of Aegis.
A Thief, for instance, can steal their stability and pull them off with scorpion wire + trap.

Does it really negate hallowed ground? I’d have to see if order matters too. Also, I do have issues with thief, but only because they cannot be seen most of the time and you aren’t prepared. I’d have to say thieves, necros, guards, and engis are really favored this map.

ArcTheFallen.7682:

Does it really negate hallowed ground? I’d have to see if order matters too. Also, I do have issues with thief, but only because they cannot be seen most of the time and you aren’t prepared. I’d have to say thieves, necros, guards, and engis are really favored this map.

Also Warrior and Elementalists are in a good spot.
Warrior have some nice pushback (Kick, Stomp and Fear Me) and also quite good access to stability (Balanced Stance, Dolyak Signet).

Elementalists have Tornado, which is useless in any map except this, in which it is extremely strong.

Ranger has Rampage as One which is a 20s stability. He as also a knockback in Longbow and the wolf AoE fear.
Mesmer have GS with Illusionary Wave, which can be devastating when used at the right time and Temporal Curtain.

Regarding WoC, I think that boon removal priority is last in first out as it was in GW1. I would test it out anyway, thought.

Eurantien.4632:

Clearly I do not understand so I am asking the community. A lot of people say the new maps (Temple, Spirit Watch, Sky Hammer) take no skill while the old maps (Foefire, Forest, Kyhlo) do. It seems to me thakittens pretty “skilled” to CC someone at the top buff on temple, at the orb to then cap it or delay the runner, and to CC people off the ledges on skyhammer. Seems like one would have to wait out their stability and dodge their CC in the meantime. However, skill for the old maps seems to be dropping aoe on point, dodging high damage abilities, and focusing fire so that the enemy cannot use his “skill” to survive because there is just too much damage. Seems to me both things are pretty viable and would require the same amount of “skill” to be successful at. Sadly, most say that the new maps require no “skill” and I don’t understand that. If one is “skilled” then why did they get knocked off the edge? Were they not good enough to dodge the enemy’s CC? Were they not good enough to stay alive while their enemy had stability? These seems like an example of the dead players lacking “skill” not the living players lacking “skill”. So where does the argument that maps like these require no “skill” come from?

Seems to me that you either win or lose fights depending on 2 things: skill or superior builds regardless of how its done.

People saying Skyhammer needs to be tuned because it makes knockbacks/fears too valuable and that cannon is too strong are correct. People saying it takes no skill got outplayed and are mad and can/should be ignored. The map is different and some people have a hard time with difference, old maps are considered “great” because everyone is used to them. Yes, the three new maps can use tweaking and they have been tweaked, but they are all fun and with minor adjustments can all be viable for tournaments. People QQ too much.

sorrow.2364:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

Does it really negate hallowed ground? I’d have to see if order matters too. Also, I do have issues with thief, but only because they cannot be seen most of the time and you aren’t prepared. I’d have to say thieves, necros, guards, and engis are really favored this map.

Also Warrior and Elementalists are in a good spot.
Warrior have some nice pushback (Kick, Stomp and Fear Me) and also quite good access to stability (Balanced Stance, Dolyak Signet).

Elementalists have Tornado, which is useless in any map except this, in which it is extremely strong.

Ranger has Rampage as One which is a 20s stability. He as also a knockback in Longbow and the wolf AoE fear.
Mesmer have GS with Illusionary Wave, which can be devastating when used at the right time and Temporal Curtain.

Regarding WoC, I think that boon removal priority is last in first out as it was in GW1. I would test it out anyway, thought.

I used to think Tornado was good but I normally run out of the room now :X and just come back after some seconds. I’ll get back to the WoC once I get home.