Guild Wars 2

The avid theorycrafter in me has wanted to write a long winded post about top level SPvP balance for quite some time but I always find myself discouraged by the general lack of high level discussion and understanding on this and many other fan forums. From time to time a dev pops into a thread and comments about them “keeping an eye on” build X or skill Y but in general there is very little info being release. With Paid tournaments coming in 7 days today would have been an ideal day to push out a decent balance patch fixing some of the blatantly abusive builds in the current meta. The lack of one is concerning.

Let me start by saying that yes, balance is alright. Alright balance though does not keep teams from abusing grossly overpowered classes and bugs match after match. I understand wanting to take your time but the meta hasn’t shifted for a good 3 weeks at high level play. Staff eles, Shatter+Portal Mesmers, Bunker Guardians, BackStab thieves make up a good 80% of all teams. In some cases the “fixes” to these builds is not black and white, but in others (such as backstab thives) the problems with them are quite apparent.

I really could go on for pages about balance and its current state only to be told I’m wrong by those of you who play 2 pug matches a day but it doesn’t seem like a good use of my time so I’ll cut that short.

The big question here is, @Devs, when are we going to see bug fixes to bugs that ruin high level spvp and when are we going to see the builds that are clearly too strong nerfed? Would this week not have been a perfect time? At least in that case you give the current meta a week to settle some BEFORE paid tournaments.

Is it really that hard to look at:
Guardian Mace #3 InfiniteBlock exploit
Guardian Greatsword #3 3 second leap exploit
Backstab Thives (and the steal does damage trait)
Portal Repairs (and how overly strong they are on back point defense on certain maps)

and see how much they negativity impact high end play? These issues listed I have listed thus are is only the tip is the iceberg as you guys would like to say. I understand reservations when looking at how to balance things such as the overreaching problem with “bunkers” but there are some very clear cut exploits and builds that HAVE to be fixed before paid tournaments come out.

You guys are weeks behind the meta at high end play, pistol whip and phantasm mesmers were a good two weeks out of the high level meta when you nerfed them; and while it’s good that you at least did something (the protection runes were a good start) you are dropping the ball in so many other cases.

It is becoming a chore to log in and practice against these builds, I had high hopes of a good patch tonight so things could have time to adjust before paid tournaments. What a let down it has been.

Please, for the love of god, fix the bugs and builds that are having an actual impact on high end play for once.

EDIT: In before random trolls about getting better, XYZ not being too strong, comments about no high end play, ect. ect. ect.

Great post. Agree with everything. Bunkers are a joke. It’s basically a requirement to have at least one. I thought no one was going to be pigeon holed into certain builds. So we basically just traded the holy trinity for the system we have now. GG Sales gimmick.

The meta is 0.5% of the playerbase, only a foolsih epsort company would nerf and buff based on the poopsocking playerbase

LoL nerfs based on the community outcries, if you dont want this game to die then anet needs to do it too, if you are good a nerf wont matter and you will continue to be good, if you nerf thieves only the bads will leave which is fine

Lawbringer.1956:

The meta is 0.5% of the playerbase, only a foolsih epsort company would nerf and buff based on the poopsocking playerbase

LoL nerfs based on the community outcries, if you dont want this game to die then anet needs to do it too, if you are good a nerf wont matter and you will continue to be good, if you nerf thieves only the bads will leave which is fine

The way I see it is if we didnt’ have bunkers we would just have zerg fests running from point to point and maybe crossing the other team as they zerg to cap the other point. With bunkers when someone comes along trying to capture a point they will have a fight on their hands giving time for backup to arrive.

Without bunker builds, I kinda just see people running around like chickens with their heads cut off.

Still not seeing an issue with staff Eles. I have yet to see any staff Ele not get gunned downed in a heart beat vs. a good player.

Lawbringer.1956:

The meta is 0.5% of the playerbase

You seem to not understand what the term “meta” means.

Also LoL balanced for high end tournament play first, just like any good competitive game does.

Zatria.5783:

Still not seeing an issue with staff Eles. I have yet to see any staff Ele not get gunned downed in a heart beat vs. a good player.

Have seen some good Water Staff ele’s. Was actually impressed. I underestimated them. Boy did I feel stupid afterward though.

Zatria.5783:

Still not seeing an issue with staff Eles. I have yet to see any staff Ele not get gunned downed in a heart beat vs. a good player.

You must not see many good staff eles.

Siric.3589:

Lawbringer.1956:

The meta is 0.5% of the playerbase

You seem to not understand what the term “meta” means.

Also LoL balanced for high end tournament play first, just like any good competitive game does.

I would agree. LoL has routinely said that they base things off of what the top players are doing as there are essentially three skill caps in LoL. Begginer, Intermediate, and Advanced. Very few champs fit into all three (cougholdevecough) so they tend to base their changes off what the top players are consistently doing.

GW2 is different where each class can potentially be in any of the three depending on what build they are going with. Granted some will always fit in at least two (thief for instance) but never all three (thief again…as most high skill players avoid the loathed back stab build as it brings nothing to the group as a whole). Each build has its draw backs and positives, but no matter what build, they have to sacrifice something to gain something.

When 20/20 staff skills are AOE, is it really that surprising that there is really only one way to build a staff Ele?

On on side you have SPvP.
SPvP is more team deathmatch, I play it like counter strike : insta queue, non stop map cycling …
You can still play objectives to win the map but its rarely the top priority : effort vs reward issue.
Now that you are aware of this, you see why most people play dps build in sPvP. Its not critical to hold a point.
You can still play/test defensive builds and its actually fun/challenging to survive the zerg.

On the other side of the spectrum you have tPvP.
In tPvP you have to win the map to get next round, so holding a point is critical. You actually want to hold2 for the entire game. So you are tailoring your team to do that = at least 2 “bunkers” and the rest is mix of damage/support builds (roamers).

Where it gets funny is that basically :
- All the qq against mesmer/rogues/warrior comes from sPvP games where their burst damage gets into the light
- All the qq against bunkers comes from tPvP where good bunkers (supported by good teamplay) rule the world.

“Burst is too good but at same time bunker is too good !!”
Same deal as in other games, nerfbat is the key.

Why nerfbat because you have no accurate data so its best to moderately although blindlessly nerf to please the masses . And so far they have been rather “light” on it, nerfing but not completely destroying.

Of course, player skill is never and can not be taken into account.
Forum feedback ? or ingame statistics ? both dont assess anything.

That being said, I think everyone should try to enjoy the game, pick the 2-3 the class/builds you like and have fun. Rushed class balance, ie nerfing, is never good.

Also, Id like more bug fixing rather than class balance.

CeCaKonVeu.5734:

On on side you have SPvP.
SPvP is more team deathmatch, I play it like counter strike : insta queue, non stop map cycling …
You can still play objectives to win the map but its rarely the top priority : effort vs reward issue.
Now that you are aware of this, you see why most people play dps build in sPvP. Its not critical to hold a point.
You can still play/test defensive builds and its actually fun/challenging to survive the zerg.

On the other side of the spectrum you have tPvP.
In tPvP you have to win the map to get next round, so holding a point is critical. You actually want to hold2 for the entire game. So you are tailoring your team to do that = at least 2 “bunkers” and the rest is mix of damage/support builds (roamers).

Where it gets funny is that basically :
- All the qq against mesmer/rogues/warrior comes from sPvP games where their burst damage gets into the light
- All the qq against bunkers comes from tPvP where good bunkers (supported by good teamplay) rule the world.

“Burst is too good but at same time bunker is too good !!”
Same deal as in other games, nerfbat is the key.

Why nerfbat because you have no accurate data so its best to moderately although blindlessly nerf to please the masses . And so far they have been rather “light” on it, nerfing but not completely destroying.

Of course, player skill is never and can not be taken into account.
Forum feedback ? or ingame statistics ? both dont assess anything.

That being said, I think everyone should try to enjoy the game, pick the 2-3 the class/builds you like and have fun. Rushed class balance, ie nerfing, is never good.

Also, Id like more bug fixing rather than class balance.

I think i’m in love

I really hope the next balance patch will find aspects of weak abilities on classes then BUFF them instead of nerf all the other classes this is the way to go it wont cause so much negative feedback and everyone can still enjoy pve as much as they did if not even more.

K Cross.3458:

I love when I see a rock complaining why paper always wins.

Bad philosophy. If you keep balancing stuff and take 1v1 statistics you would eventually get closer and closer to 50% wins for both professions. If you reach for example 47% vs 53% then player skill more than accounts for the discrepancy in probabilities. If MMOs would finally understand that the majority of players want fair 1v1 fights, they could implement 1v1 arenas, collect statistics, balance scientifically, and profit from tremendous success.

Excellent, excellent post…I feel u man. My friend and I, both avid pvpers, pretty much rage quit tpvp after many days of hitting our heads against the wall of broken builds. And both of us knew our profs inside out. I just didnt wanna play a bunker guardian and he didnt wanna play a backstab thief. Not to mention i had to abandon my ranger completely. The situation is deplorable and I’m hoping anet has an ace up their sleeves for the Oct 22nd patch. Otherwise there’s no sense in having paid tourneys.

@ceca
Excellent points. While the current situation is frustrating, I think anet is acting appropriately by taking notes and not making spastic balancing decisions, which continues to ruin wow. I also wish they would just focus on the bugs…there are literally hundreds

I would expect some changes on the things they have an eye on (bunker guardians/ele’s, mesmers/thiefs, stealth, and downed) before they put in the paid tournaments. Would be the perfect time to really get some changes in there without everyone throwing a fit. Hopefully a fair amount of bug fixes too. Stealth being top priority.

nerf thieves to the ground and give them ele downed mode so we wont see them in spvp anymore then we can enjoy actually pvp.

shaolin.9716:

K Cross.3458:

I love when I see a rock complaining why paper always wins.

Bad philosophy. If you keep balancing stuff and take 1v1 statistics you would eventually get closer and closer to 50% wins for both professions. If you reach for example 47% vs 53% then player skill more than accounts for the discrepancy in probabilities. If MMOs would finally understand that the majority of players want fair 1v1 fights, they could implement 1v1 arenas, collect statistics, balance scientifically, and profit from tremendous success.

I WANT fair 1v1 fights. But you cannot expect that your build will be good against all other builds. I was trying to state the rock-papaer-scissor- philosophy where you are strong in some points and weak in others. You can’t expect nerfs to be done without realizing that there are builds that can beat that so-called OP builds.

For example, I have no problem fighting high toughness bunker guardians with my condition thief. But they are a major pain against my warrior.

Anyway, I got an infraction after I said that rock/paper thing. Apparently the moderator thinks what I posted has nothing to do with the subject discussed. I’m not complaining nor I will try to appeal, next time I’ll try to be less vague.