Guild Wars 2

As we all see in next patch we will have some nerfs on direct dmg and condi dmg , what do you think about bunker builds like rangers/guards/engis have? bunker teams next meta

It’s already like that with Warriors and Engineers, The amount of regen and counter-pressure at the same time they can have is insane.

Depents the new modes
If new modes focus more on teamfights , where aoe stability is more accessible , i will try a Rampanger Thief , for the stealth rezzes :P

(Mod keep it up and thanks for the break :P)

Josh Davis.6015:

It’s definitely a possibility. We can try to nudge the meta in certain directions with changes, but ultimately it comes down on the players to establish it.

Guards, for example, have less access to condition removal than they did in the previous ‘bunker meta’ because of the fix to Pure of Voice. That said, with the proposed changes in the Dec 10th patch, I think we may see even more teams opt for bunker support outside of guardian. Not because guardian is sub-optimal, but because other professions will be able to fill that roll with varying flavor. (Engineer might be able to debunk points easier than other bunkers, but provides little AoE stability. Engineer support is seeing a buff so we could see some interesting things there as well…)

Also, S/D thief is taking a hit, which was the main build keeping mesmer and elementalist out of the meta for a long time. It’s hard to predict, but I’d like to personally see a more power-orientated meta surface.

/Grouch rambles on a Sunday morning…

Next patch will totally kill all sword thieves.

Since we’re here, what are your plans regarding the thief profession ?

How is a D/P thief ( the ones you’re blatantly pushing us toward to) supposed to survive in this AoE spam-condi spam-stun spam meta ?

Do you really want us to play venom share only ? ( which is totally broken, by the way )

More than a possibility. The meta has already shifted to bunker imo, most ppl just haven’t caught on.

I hate bunkers already therr’s no room for a burst thief in a condi meta.

Just throwing this out there — I don’t know why so many people on the forums say D/P is unviable. I know… a large number of high-tier thieves that prefer it to S/D currently and use it more successfully. I also play one on my team and it synergizes extremely well with multiple other meta builds (stun warrior/necro/etc). It’s almost as if the forums haven’t caught up to the actual meta and are just whining for the sake of whining….

Not saying, of course, that every build is balanced — it’s ridiculous to consider the difference in skill cap of a d/p thief next to, say, a spirit ranger — but it’s equally ridiculous to say the sword 2 change is the end of the thief.

Its what happens when easy builds are so dominant for so long… people freak out when they are faced with having to do something else

I dont think so since mesmers and eles will see a huge comeback I think and they can literally destroy bunkers

Well I know for sure everyone will hate the new ranger build.

0/0/30/30/10 – Shamans – Healing Spring/Sun Spirit/Stone Spirit/Guard/Spirit of Nature/Fern Hound.

So Super bunker/condition spam – with perma regen and swiftnes + the Spirit of Nature and your looking at stupid amounts of healing. You add a guardian on top of that and you have one hell of mid bunker team.

Sol.4310:

Well I know for sure everyone will hate the new ranger build.

0/0/30/30/10 – Shamans – Healing Spring/Sun Spirit/Stone Spirit/Guard/Spirit of Nature/Fern Hound.

So Super bunker/condition spam – with perma regen and swiftnes + the Spirit of Nature and your looking at stupid amounts of healing. You add a guardian on top of that and you have one hell of mid bunker team.

First it was a passive healing build.Then a passive condi build..Now both of them…
Anet seriously wants us to use that Guard shout, even tho is so badly designed…Whos gonna have fun playing with this shout?Seriously?

I find some potential in power Rangers after patch..

Dardamaniac.1295:

I find some potential in power Rangers after patch..

Trust me, nothing is really changing to make power ranger any more viable than it currently is.

Dardamaniac.1295:

I find some potential in power Rangers after patch..

Yeah, but your team won’t let you play it, when there will still be better power builds on other classes that offer better team support and damage.

Might hit hard, but to have the damage required you have next to no condition remove. Until they change our condition remove to active condition remove you won’t see much of impact from power rangers.

You know. you could take Elite Spirit and make it follow you with less trait investment..If classes like Eles and Mesmers are back to the game,conditions wont be such a problem…
I dont know, im just geussing..

Or like stacking like 20might to yourself and goind in for a Maul..That would be crazy….
Activate signets=9
Swap weapon=3
swap pet=3
Jungle stalker F2=5
Total=20 might + 20% dmg increase with stability + 10% from Frost spirit…Thats crazy you know

My only concern is what i do next..I think it will be a suicide build

Dardamaniac.1295:

Or like stacking like 20might to yourself and goind in for a Maul..That would be crazy….
Activate signets=9
Swap weapon=3
swap pet=3
Jungle stalker F2=5
Total=20 might + 20% dmg increase with stability + 10% from Frost spirit…Thats crazy you know

My only concern is what i do next..I think it will be a suicide build

Sounds good in a perfect world and I’ve been thinking of a build along them lines as well but there are some real major problems.

- 150 Range on Maul, and you see it coming a mile away.
– No real effective way to lock your target down, pets aren’t reliable source and the build you are required to use to get decent damage doesn’t offer you much in terms of locking your target down and landing that big blow.

Hopefully Anet is aware of the problem, even on casual player base it has the same problems.

Edit* You could run 2x Spider’s, which would be decent but you run into same problem of how long it takes for your pet to react, you can’t get clutch plays its always slow due to cast times and reaction from your pet so by time you land that combo its to late.

Josh Davis.6015:

It’s definitely a possibility. We can try to nudge the meta in certain directions with changes, but ultimately it comes down on the players to establish it.

Guards, for example, have less access to condition removal than they did in the previous ‘bunker meta’ because of the fix to Pure of Voice. That said, with the proposed changes in the Dec 10th patch, I think we may see even more teams opt for bunker support outside of guardian. Not because guardian is sub-optimal, but because other professions will be able to fill that roll with varying flavor. (Engineer might be able to debunk points easier than other bunkers, but provides little AoE stability. Engineer support is seeing a buff so we could see some interesting things there as well…)

Also, S/D thief is taking a hit, which was the main build keeping mesmer and elementalist out of the meta for a long time. It’s hard to predict, but I’d like to personally see a more power-orientated meta surface.

/Grouch rambles on a Sunday morning…

Just call it like it is, S/D thief is being taken out of the meta completely.

Hype.8032:

Josh Davis.6015:

It’s definitely a possibility. We can try to nudge the meta in certain directions with changes, but ultimately it comes down on the players to establish it.

Guards, for example, have less access to condition removal than they did in the previous ‘bunker meta’ because of the fix to Pure of Voice. That said, with the proposed changes in the Dec 10th patch, I think we may see even more teams opt for bunker support outside of guardian. Not because guardian is sub-optimal, but because other professions will be able to fill that roll with varying flavor. (Engineer might be able to debunk points easier than other bunkers, but provides little AoE stability. Engineer support is seeing a buff so we could see some interesting things there as well…)

Also, S/D thief is taking a hit, which was the main build keeping mesmer and elementalist out of the meta for a long time. It’s hard to predict, but I’d like to personally see a more power-orientated meta surface.

/Grouch rambles on a Sunday morning…

Just call it like it is, S/D thief is being taken out of the meta completely.

thanks god i can still play my mesmer/necro.

I don’t think S/D is gonna be taken out entirely.

Lyssa, Sig of Agility, and Feline grace still give you plenty of dodges, it’s just that you can’t engage/disengage whenever you want with no consequence with Sword 2.

It’ll still be a tough fight vs. a good S/D player

jmatb.6307:

I don’t think S/D is gonna be taken out entirely.

Lyssa, Sig of Agility, and Feline grace still give you plenty of dodges, it’s just that you can’t engage/disengage whenever you want with no consequence with Sword 2.

It’ll still be a tough fight vs. a good S/D player

You don’t understand it seems.

S/D thieves were NOT OP.

A perfectly played S/D thief always had fair match up against engies ( without elixir R ress), NEVER had a chance against hambow wars, fair match up against necros and low chance to win against a spirit ranger.

Obviously at the skill cap.

There’re videos of Ventari (necro) completely owning Sizer ( one of the current top S/D thief both in solo and team queue) and this just to show that even with Inf strike current iteration, the S/D set was barely enough to face current meta builds.

S/D fault was to completely shut down eles, since GS-Staff mesmers can easily win against S/D thieves too ( while common Sword/* was just dead meat, and infact it was a combination of both S/D thieves and condi pressure keeping mesmers out of the meta) and being unfun to play against.

Now at the second stun we will be dead, because even with S/D we’re squishy and get dropped with a single burst.

When i play my necro i already eat alive thieves ( simply because thief is my main and i know its animations/timing) and a single fear is enough to put so much condi pressure on him to eat half his life bar, and thieves are currently able to port away at will.

On 10th december patch, sword thieves will just die at blink, due to the massive condi spam-AoE spam-Stun spam the meta is currently filled of.

Mrbig.8019:

jmatb.6307:

I don’t think S/D is gonna be taken out entirely.

Lyssa, Sig of Agility, and Feline grace still give you plenty of dodges, it’s just that you can’t engage/disengage whenever you want with no consequence with Sword 2.

It’ll still be a tough fight vs. a good S/D player

You don’t understand it seems.

S/D thieves were NOT OP.

A perfectly played S/D thief always had fair match up against engies ( without elixir R ress), NEVER had a chance against hambow wars, fair match up against necros and low chance to win against a spirit ranger.

Obviously at the skill cap.

There’re videos of Ventari (necro) completely owning Sizer ( one of the current top S/D thief both in solo and team queue) and this just to show that even with Inf strike current iteration, the S/D set was barely enough to face current meta builds.

S/D fault was to completely shut down eles, since GS-Staff mesmers can easily win against S/D thieves too ( while common Sword/* was just dead meat, and infact it was a combination of both S/D thieves and condi pressure keeping mesmers out of the meta) and being unfun to play against.

Now at the second stun we will be dead, because even with S/D we’re squishy and get dropped with a single burst.

When i play my necro i already eat alive thieves ( simply because thief is my main and i know its animations/timing) and a single fear is enough to put so much condi pressure on him to eat half his life bar, and thieves are currently able to port away at will.

On 10th december patch, sword thieves will just die at blink, due to the massive condi spam-AoE spam-Stun spam the meta is currently filled of.

+1….. Ele is the only thing that s/d seemed overpowered against and I’ll claim that removing the 2nd boon stolen from LS was enough to fix that issue. That’s ignoring the fact that removing that 2nd boon made fights against guardians impossible. It seems like anet doesn’t know how to balance the sword on thief so they’re just removing it completely.

with the amount of warriors currently, S/D thief is already useless. After dec.10 S/D thief will be completely extinct.

Also, S/D thief is taking a hit, which was the main build keeping mesmer and elementalist out of the meta for a long time. It’s hard to predict, but I’d like to personally see a more power-orientated meta surface.

It sounds as though the proposed changes to the Thief class may have been made with PvP combat in mind. Can you please assure us PvE players that this was not the case, that you would not nerf PvE builds just because PvP players can’t handle it. It just feels like the Thief has been hit left and right since launch, mostly due to how they were designed from the start to essentially “troll” other players in PvP encounters, but these changes have made them less and less interesting to play in PvE situations, and made fewer and fewer viable builds.

Josh Davis.6015:

but I’d like to personally see a more power-orientated meta surface.

Maybe have a look at the Eu meta if you want to see power oriented meta

Mesmers. Nuff said.

Sol.4310:

Dardamaniac.1295:

Or like stacking like 20might to yourself and goind in for a Maul..That would be crazy….
Activate signets=9
Swap weapon=3
swap pet=3
Jungle stalker F2=5
Total=20 might + 20% dmg increase with stability + 10% from Frost spirit…Thats crazy you know

My only concern is what i do next..I think it will be a suicide build

Sounds good in a perfect world and I’ve been thinking of a build along them lines as well but there are some real major problems.

- 150 Range on Maul, and you see it coming a mile away.
– No real effective way to lock your target down, pets aren’t reliable source and the build you are required to use to get decent damage doesn’t offer you much in terms of locking your target down and landing that big blow.

Hopefully Anet is aware of the problem, even on casual player base it has the same problems.

Edit* You could run 2x Spider’s, which would be decent but you run into same problem of how long it takes for your pet to react, you can’t get clutch plays its always slow due to cast times and reaction from your pet so by time you land that combo its to late.

Krytan Drakehound/Jaguar, Longbow, GS. Get increase in condition duration for pets. Use only Signet of the Hunt, once the target is being immobed, cast stealth, get behind the target and maul whilst popping hunt. Also switch pets after the target is immobed so that your pet can get a 5k maul in there as well.

Josh Davis.6015:

It’s definitely a possibility. We can try to nudge the meta in certain directions with changes, but ultimately it comes down on the players to establish it.

So when we try and play how we want to within the rules, Anet says no and nerf things so that we have to basically run certain builds if we want to be effective. GG Anet

I can’t say Anet’s changes have ever really improved the meta, so I won’t be surprised if this happens.

I really, really wish that Anet was capable of just picking 5-6 build setups that have a good foundation (strengths, weaknesses, teamwork, dynamic play) and work on making them the center (the most viable) of GW2.

Then when they have a good base for the game and feel for what that means, they could just expand it out to other builds, tweaking them to fit their own role instead of just creating masses of condi/auto/passive/CC spams.

But since I don’t think they are capable of such quality… releasing dozens of new weapons/utilities/maps exc., while straying from passive procs, seems to be their best bet. With such hefty content spam, quality (just like in GW1) is bound to be in there somewhere.

How is this not the current meta? In the last two tournaments there were no less than four bunker builds on the map at any time, in one the winning team even used three bunkers the entire tourney. The current meta already IS condition damage vs bunker, with bunker having the advantage most of the time.

Gallrvaghn.4921:

Mesmers. Nuff said.

Except what mesmer build that is dangerous to bunkers has enough condi clear to not need to be 100% protected and carried by their team? As a war who previously played mesmer, I don’t even really need to try and hit the mesmer. I just keep combustive shot on the point. They can’t burst me hard enough before they have to run away due to condis. There are like, two or three mesmers in the game that I’ve encountered which are good enough to be a real threat to a semi-decent bunker. Mesmer condi clear is a joke even with the dec 10 changes. More mantra changes, rofl… kitten kitten Anet.

Conncept.7638:

How is this not the current meta? In the last two tournaments there were no less than four bunker builds on the map at any time, in one them the winning team used three bunkers the entire tourney. The current meta already IS condition damage vs bunker, with bunker having the advantage most of the time.

ding ding

Well very few people are really going to miss the S/D thief anyway so I’m fine with only a few dedicated people being able to make it work

Prepare for rabid/shaman sword sword plus longbow shout/banner regen bunker warriors hotjoin heroes.Just warning you so you can prepare the qq arguments in time and not waste another month to figure it out.

Sounds boring. Bunker everywhere already….

have fun with your bunker meta without any S/D teefs around to deter it.

Indefinite Capture Circles equals bunker forever.

Aka bunker never dies.

jmatb.6307:

Well very few people are really going to miss the S/D thief anyway so I’m fine with only a few dedicated people being able to make it work

So let’s just kill a build because people don’t like it ( they did it with burst thieves already).

On a sidenote:

I dislike necros fear spam
I dislike spirit rangers ( most of all)
I dislike engi bomb spam
I dislike warrior’s faceroll stun spam
I dislike guardian’s 40% stability uptime and almost uninterruptible block heal.

Plz remove them aNet.

People don’t understand why Bunkers Exist..

Bunker’s Exist because you have specs in this game that can instantly… and i mean that…INSTANTLY kill you.

100 to 0 in 1 second…..

If you’d not one of those classes that can do that, You go Bunker.. its really that simple.

+1 , let’s nerf everything that we don’t like to fight against. That’s pathetic, people need to l2p instead of QQ.

Xsorus.2507:

People don’t understand why Bunkers Exist..

Bunker’s Exist because you have specs in this game that can instantly… and i mean that…INSTANTLY kill you.

100 to 0 in 1 second…..

If you’d not one of those classes that can do that, You go Bunker.. its really that simple.

QFT. The old d/d Ele emerged because at that time none of the other Ele spec could handle a few hits without dying. The choice was simple, spec 100% into defense, or die.

As long as there are specs/classes that can instantly kill you, there will still be bunkers.

Well arenanet wants a sustained based combat. They don’t want instagib in PvP , so eventually we won’t need any bunkers.

Bunker is just a name for ‘the most tankiest dude you can find to defend a point in conquest’. There will always be a most tankiest dude.

I don’t know about NA, but it’s seems pretty balanced here in EU.
We see every kind of teams. (at least that’s what I see in team arena)
It’s like a rock/paper/scissor between power, condi and bunker

Mrbig.8019:

jmatb.6307:

Well very few people are really going to miss the S/D thief anyway so I’m fine with only a few dedicated people being able to make it work

So let’s just kill a build because people don’t like it ( they did it with burst thieves already).

On a sidenote:

I dislike necros fear spam
I dislike spirit rangers ( most of all)
I dislike engi bomb spam
I dislike warrior’s faceroll stun spam
I dislike guardian’s 40% stability uptime and almost uninterruptible block heal.

Plz remove them aNet.

Why not just complain about taking damage? Nobody likes to see their health bar taken off, so maybe your constructive suggestion is to just be immune to damage when you log in while everyone else takes damage.

Josh Davis.6015:

It’s hard to predict, but I’d like to personally see a more power-orientated meta surface.

3k armor 18k+ hp 700hps + protection and other defence.
For the current bunkers full power berserk is not more dangerous training golem.

Josh Davis.6015:

It’s definitely a possibility. We can try to nudge the meta in certain directions with changes, but ultimately it comes down on the players to establish it.

A meta isn’t established. Rules are established, gameplay is established, abilities and skills are established, the meta is found by the players who use the abilities given. If everyone used guards for spike damage just because they wanted to, someone would come in with a thief and stomp their idea of spike to the ground with one backstab. Then they’d all be looking to thieves.

That’s why it isn’t always easy to find OP skills immediately. If the players haven’t found those builds, they’re not being used. Its all about who uses what and shows people where the tools are available, and that’s only a matter of time and open-mindedness. The former being an undeniable force of progress.

Josh Davis.6015:

Guards, for example, have less access to condition removal than they did in the previous ‘bunker meta’ because of the fix to Pure of Voice. That said, with the proposed changes in the Dec 10th patch, I think we may see even more teams opt for bunker support outside of guardian. Not because guardian is sub-optimal, but because other professions will be able to fill that roll with varying flavor. (Engineer might be able to debunk points easier than other bunkers, but provides little AoE stability. Engineer support is seeing a buff so we could see some interesting things there as well…)

Teams will opt for what works best. If they’re looking for a bunker, and the engi out-performs the guard, they’ll take engis. It’s not hard. It’s not rocket science. It’s the “path of least resistance” meets the “best bang for your buck” scenario. You can only take so many players with you and you only need so many roles. You’re going to go with the best available class for the role. On top of that, players will always build the easiest ‘win button’ setup they can. You can always count on those two things surfacing eventually.

Josh Davis.6015:

Also, S/D thief is taking a hit, which was the main build keeping mesmer and elementalist out of the meta for a long time. It’s hard to predict, but I’d like to personally see a more power-orientated meta surface.

You won’t see that until Mesmer clones stop applying conditions with auto-attacks. Sorry but ranged condi-bunkers are just too strong. Power builds can’t compete.

Sunshine.5014:

Xsorus.2507:

People don’t understand why Bunkers Exist..

Bunker’s Exist because you have specs in this game that can instantly… and i mean that…INSTANTLY kill you.

100 to 0 in 1 second…..

If you’d not one of those classes that can do that, You go Bunker.. its really that simple.

QFT. The old d/d Ele emerged because at that time none of the other Ele spec could handle a few hits without dying. The choice was simple, spec 100% into defense, or die.

As long as there are specs/classes that can instantly kill you, there will still be bunkers.

No the old D/D ele emerged because it was simply a matter of time before people put 2 and 2 together without getting World of Warcraft.

They realized you should swap attunements often: check.
They figured out bunkers can be built from any class: check.
They learned that mobility is key to surviving fights: check.

All of that had already been established by Anet. They’ve built this game as such. People just got the heads out of their kittens and realized how to properly build a class. Pre-conceived notions of GW2 from other MMOs were eventually broken. The “DDele” (pronounced “Double Deli” … yeah I just made that up, so what? ) God-class was born. Then nerfed. Then rivers of tears. Still going on to this day, actually.