Guild Wars 2

And for the record, I have run bunker ele build. It’s nearly indestructible, EXCEPT against a thief that still will insta-kill you. We went up against a top 3 guild last night in tpvp and it was so frustrating. It’s not a 5 minute cooldown, thieves can stand on a point and just own repeatedly.

Anyone can see that it’s broken. If you play a thief and are saying it’s not, you must not be doing it right. If you play another profession and are saying it’s not broken, you must play a guardian or simply run into bad players very frequently.

Fynd.4890:

Elementalists in GW2 are relegated to being trashy bunker water/arcane specs w/ staff that can’t kill anyone and are brought for treb demolition duty on Khylo

Ele’s are one of the stronger classes in the game atm and various teams run them as either s/d or d/d balanced roamers. Either a valk’s or soldier’s amulet with a zerker’s jewel is enough to increase your sustain significantly while reducing your damage by a relatively small amount.

Idk, the proof is out there.

“I don’t care if the cooldown on some insta-gib chain is a day and a half. I don’t care if the person insta-gibbing is a glass cannon or not, it simply shouldn’t exist.”

If you removed glass cannon completly, you would also have to remove bunkers, and high condi classes and all you would have is the same build on every class, sustained dps with moderate survivability.

You really want a game designed around everyone being and using the same build so that every fight is infinite ?? I dunno if you ever played a sustain dps vs a sustain dps in 1v1, like s/d support ele vs s/d support ele but I can have fights that last longer than map times… and both of us are at the top of our game so its not even a skill issue.

You cannot remove “instagib” builds, but you can learn to not die to them, I havnt died to a backstab thief since the first time one hit me, as soon as you learn the warning signs backstab is coming, or get some good reactions on your “stun break” once you are venomed its not even an issue…same goes for 100b, pistolwhip and any other glass cannon you want to moan about.

Livewire.4216:

“You cannot remove “instagib” builds, but you can learn to not die to them, I havnt died to a backstab thief since the first time one hit me, as soon as you learn the warning signs backstab is coming, or get some good reactions on your “stun break” once you are venomed its not even an issue…same goes for 100b, pistolwhip and any other glass cannon you want to moan about.

Stun break does nothing to devourer venom and automatic panic strike kicking in after the cnd/steal/backstab burst.

Umm it removes basalisk tho, which is the most common thing to hit you in backstab builds…and lots of classes have condi removal skills and invunerable skills, you can for example mist form even if you can’t move it still mitigates all the incoming damage OR you can go into water attune remove condi and run away… there are lot’s of ways to avoid backstab damage.

In fact I do not know of a single good thief who even uses devourer in theirbackstab build the most common utilities are Shadow signet, Assassins signet and either Shadow refuge or haste. Even if they did swap out for devourer like I said either way an instant mistform will remove the basalisk OR make you immune to the backstab, same goes for endure pain or guardian elite/aegis or thief blink or mesmer blink etc. etc.

Fynd.4890:

automatic panic strike kicking in after the cnd/steal/backstab burst.

This goes away with experience – shouldn’t even be used as an argument imo.

Exactly Noctred, I think the issue here is lack of experience/skill not lack of balance within instagib builds.

Livewire.4216:

Exactly Noctred, I think the issue here is lack of experience/skill not lack of balance within instagib builds.

Well, I actually don’t like instagibs in MMO’s either.

However, the difference is that I don’t like them because I don’t think the potential for TTK that low should exist in games period, not because it’s unavoidable (which it isn’t, usually).

Noctred.6732:

Fynd.4890:

automatic panic strike kicking in after the cnd/steal/backstab burst.

This goes away with experience – shouldn’t even be used as an argument imo.

What goes away about it? Get hit with this on a necro without any life force and tell me how to deal with it. The guy above lists a bunch of ele cantrips, that’s nice.

Fynd.4890:

What goes away about it? Get hit with this on a necro without any life force and tell me how to deal with it. The guy above lists a bunch of ele cantrips, that’s nice.

I was referring to the panic strike – that “wtf just happened” moment goes away with experience.

If you get hit with it as a necro without any life force, I guess it depends on your build. The current FOTM condi build seems to be spectral armor with well of darkness and well of power/corruption. There are several ways to deal with it in there. In fact, that build crushes backstab thieves pretty hard in general.

i think what most people don’t get is that the game isn’t either 1v1 or arena deathmatch

it’s a capture the kittening point game (and yes 8v8 don’t help to reinforce that concept … at all)

so when actually you survive the thiefs burst (in a 1v1) and he gets the kitten out with stealth or bow5 or shadowsteps YOU WON THE FIGHT

you now can happily stand on the point & cap it or continue to defend it

yes, that is exactly what the game is about … you might certainly not like it and have a bad feeling in your tummy because that bad boy thief just got away again but that is your problem

i’m not going to deny that instant-gib thiefes are very viable atm and that running one in a team might even be as much as mandatory in some peoples eyes (yet there are top teams that play without a thief) but it’s not the ultimate i-win player people make it out to be

thiefs at some points can become a huge liability in teamfights, have you ever tried rezzing someone with your 2k armor 14k hp thief? yeah … not going to happen, finish someone? lets hope no one interrupts because you surely don’t have any stability at your disposal

if anything could be considered op about thiefs it surely would be their mobility but since there are probably less than 10 teams that can even grasp the concept of active backpoint decapping & defense i don’t think it would make much sense to talk about that here

If it’s a l2p issue then 99% of people in spvp need to l2p!

I have been playing my BS thief a lot lately and all I do for a guaranteed kill is wait until someone engages my teammate, then I come in behind them and drop them in 1 second. It’s rare that they are not dropped instantly and if they aren’t, I just spam heartseaker till they are dead. I can normally kill 3-4 people in a row that way – as long as they all don’t ignore everyone else and focus fire me.

In 1v1 fights, I can instantly drop people about 90% of the time. If it looks like they aren’t dropping fast enough, I just stealth and run away until my cooldowns reset. By that time, they are usually engaged with someone else and an easy kill. Bunker builds do so little damage that I have plenty of time to get away.

After a couple rounds of this, everyone on the other team always quits. It’s actually quite funny to watch, although it does become kind of boring because there is not much skill involved. My ranger is much more challenging to play and keep alive.

People who think thieves are not OP obviously haven’t played many other classes!

Thieves can be manageable, however just being manageable doesn’t mean they are good for the game. This is a game based off animations and actively responding, now we have a burst class that can execute a combo with a very very weak tell. Sure there is still some margin to respond to it and it can be countered but really is that margin large enough to encourage new players to continue to play the game? There is nothing innate in a thieves combo that tells new players ‘this is what you need to look out for’ and honestly without that it is a bad mechanic.

I agree, Time to Kill < 5 seconds takes away all the skill from a game. Warrior bullrushing frenzy 100blades you? Instant death, you don’t even have to be a glass cannon. And unless you have catlike reflexes there is nothing you can do against it.

Haste in general is a real problem. Can’t understand how that made it out of beta. A warrior with frenzy ready is a 1shot killing machine. A warrior without frenzy ready is usually a easy kill.

Umm @Wombat, yes 99% of sPvP players DO need to learn to play…thats a fact …

@Fynd I also listed a lot of other classes mechanics that work, If you want a list of necro skills you can use to get out of devourer, basalisk and/or become invunerable here is one.

Plague signet (transfer immobolize to him/others)
Death shroud (tank the damage or fear them)
Wurm teleport (teleport)
Spectral Walk (break stun)
Signit of Spite (for the blind)
Spectral Armor (break stun)
Well of Power (convert immobolize)
Staff 5 (fear them)
Deathly Swarm (blind + transfer immobolize)

Livewire.4216:

Umm @Wombat, yes 99% of sPvP players DO need to learn to play…thats a fact …

Good, at least now we are getting somewhere!

We have established that 99% of the spvp player base simply doesn’t have the skill to live through the damage that a thief puts out. Now, do we tell that 99% that they have to play the game until they can recognize the sound of a thief attacking and hone their reflexes until they can react in .1 second to that sound or do we nerf the damage of the one offending class to normal levels?

Let’s be honest, most people just aren’t capable of that kind of reaction time are not going to practice to those ridiculous levels.

The main problem thieves have is Cloak and Dagger, whoever came up with that skill and endless traits to mitigate iniciative costs needs to get fired.

how you can come in here nad post something like this? what if anet is ok with gibbing? especially if its glass cannon vs glass cannon??

coming here and stating “obviously this part of the game should/shouldnt work this way” without citing an agreement from the game developer is ignorant at best. not defending instagibbing, but stating, you dont know if its intended or not.

Daharahj.1325:

The main problem thieves have is Cloak and Dagger, whoever came up with that skill and endless traits to mitigate iniciative costs needs to get fired.

no, if there is an issue its hte ability to precast cloak and then hit steal and not interrupt cloaks cast.

hell if you use cloak in melee range it can be juked, interrupted, avoided, etc, it has a freaking cast time.

@Wolfe it can also MISS , people need to stop lying about dying in 1.5 secs on a 20k health pool and either go practice the game or leave spvp alltogether.

Daharahj.1325:

The main problem thieves have is Cloak and Dagger, whoever came up with that skill and endless traits to mitigate iniciative costs needs to get fired.

Cloak and Dagger is fine. I hate to say it, but learn to play, seriously. It’s melee range, has a cast time, and it’s expensive and takes initiative even if it misses. Without steal or another gap closer, it’s extremely easy to avoid it if you are paying attention.

People need to think “outside the box” every build, and class has its gaps. I have been reading the QQ back stab posts so often from people who get killed by a thief, then try to fight them again without changing any sort of mentality towards the fight and get rolled for the same reason. The original poison that would make the next hit do 150% damage was EXTREMELY OP no doubt there and its been changed. Regardless of the change the backstab chain still does high amount of damage as its suppose to its a “burst” class.

imo, the damage is still high but asking to remove the “burst” from a burst class is like asking to be able to hit a bunker guardian for as much damage as you would hit a glass cannon backstab thief for.

Jumper.9482:

ITT: Panda players whining about dodging, stunbreaking, and fun, fast-paced combat which will soon push it into becoming a widely viewed eSport.

As much as I enjoy playing the game I just don’t know if A-net will have what it takes for this game to become e-sport material. Sure it has the potential sure, but their marketing sucks sadly.

Most of the thief apologists in this thread point out that glass cannon thief vs. bunker x is balanced. And they’re right. As someone who plays a lot of bunker engineer in spvp, I can tell you I have absolutely no problem with thieves whatsoever.

The problem is with glass cannon thief vs. glass cannon x. Take for example a glass cannon thief vs. a glass cannon ranger? My money’s on the thief, seeing as we’ve already established that glass cannons die a horrible death to thieves.

Now the thief apologists might say: well rangers aren’t meant to glass cannon! Fine. What about glass cannon elementalists, whose class description directly implies glass cannon? A glass cannon elementalist (you know, 13k base hp, virtually no base armor)
will get completely destroyed by almost all thief setups.

At this point the thief apologists will say: Take multiple defensive skills and traits, get some toughness gear! Well then, we aren’t talking about a glass cannon anymore, are we?

And that’s the problem. A thief has more damage and survivability than any glass cannon build from any other class. I don’t think that’s balanced.

If you complain against some class in this game, imo you didn’t learn yet how to counter it well. Yes, thief killed me from stealth in a second or two tops. So? I’m mesmer, light armor class, I should die by thiefs hands this fast if I’m not payin attention. Didn’t see him coming, wasn’t ready, had no teammates around me. My fault entirely.

I couldn’t kill guardian a long time I started with GW 2, I met mostly goodones, sometimes I can kill em pretty easy. Also depends if someone plays tanky or dps build. If you play dps, yes, you have tons of dmg, but you die fast. Some builds are more nasty than others. For example I realy dont like necros. But if I want I can take build which is gona take down thief easily, but its gona be harder against other profesions.

This game has a lot of crowd control so I take two stun breakers on my mesmer mostly. Or a staff. You need to dodge right skills, recognize em and use your defensive abilities properly. I learned that a bit but I’m still far away from mastering it. And I love it about this game. Its more complicated than just “click” and win.

P.S. Those thiefs who can kill me in a second almost usualy die while I’m in downed state if they don’t go invis. – meaning? They have so low healht that if you catch em they die. Same as you, if you go glass cannon.