Guild Wars 2

Ugruk.4069:

This is going to bring WvW and Pve players to spvp and they are the ones making money to A-net, they will have to listen to the increasing players and $$

I don’t see how removing the jewel brings more players into pvp. The ones that play PvE/WvW already know how to customize their stats with far more options. They have jewels/multiple stat choices on the same items with all trinkets, back items, and stats on armors. I don’t see how this helps or encourages them what so ever.

I disagree with some players about the runes. I think the new restriction to runes works. It works, because instead of players mixing three runes for the absolutely best boon duration set, it’ll make them want to specialize on specific boon runes instead. The restriction to runes actually increases rune diversity. It also works because there are so many runes to choose from. And finally, with the best effects now being put towards the end of the set, there’s really no reason anymore to make us click on each rune 6 times, when we can just click on it once.

The removal of jewels, however, creates a new problem: it degradades the potential viability of hybrid builds. But there’s another solution to that problem, that won’t require anet to revert back the new amulet system: add more hybrid amulets. Because only two of them exist.

Why are hybrid amulets so necessary? Why did jewels added build diversity? Because they PREVENT EXCESS. That’s why.

For example, an offensive elementalist can’t exist with additional vitality and toughness points. Those points can be gained through earth and water magic lines, but if the player invests too much on them, they won’t have the offensive points required. So what must the player do? Relying on runes’ stats only fixes one stat, and even then, it might be a bad idea if the lack of an offensive rune were to undermine their build greatly. So what else can they do? They need a bit of toughness, a bit of vitality, a bit of healing power, from equipment’s stats. And light investments on water/ earth traitlines, coupled with jewels, allowed this.

Let me give a few examples:

• Berserker Amulet (light vitality investment) + valkyrie/ soldier jewel and 10 earth (light toughness and vitality/ healing investment) + the old divinity runes, would allow them to give the base survival they depend on, while still specialize them in power.
• Alternatively, Valkyrie Amulet + Berserker Jewel and 10-20 Water + the old divinity runes, would give them light toughness, light vitality and decent healing power, while still allowing them to specialize in power.

But those two examples become more complex when taken into account that valkyrie amulet offers critical damage but not precision. A zerker jewel, divinity runes, 20 points in air and sources of fury could offset that disadvantage. Fortunately, the new sigil of accuracy now offers +7% critical chance instead of 5, and I assume the divinity’s runes overall stats are going to be buffed, so this one might still work.

When jewels are taken into account, it’s easier to prevent excess. What I mean by excess, here, is that jewels make it easier to give to builds just enough stats to keep the builds viable, and then all the remaining stats to what the build specializes at. Now, with the removal of jewels, to several builds, there will exist an excess of vitality, or an excess of toughness, etc, that will buff some stats more-than-enough, at the cost of very important stats that, in their abscence, can potentially ruin those builds.

So we need more «half-hybrid/ half-specialized» amulets. PvP will only offer exactly ONE amulet like that: valkyrie. We need more. “One” is too low of a number!

Something more like this: (major) offensive stat (minor) defensive stat 1, (very minor) defensive stat 2 and something else, or vice-versa, with a major defensive stat instead.

These kind of amulets will allow builds to just have enough of specific stats they require to be viable, while still specialize at what they want, in order to be… viable!

Ugruk.4069:

Alekt.5803:

Allie Murdock.8152:

Just wanted to call some attention to this thread.

Can you guys do me a favor and try the game out after the features are in the game before assuming removing this is going to ruin everything?

No. Sadly my Elementalist build will die because of this. I will fill my need of PvP elsewhere. With the removal of jewels, it just doesn’t make me want to try. I play for diversity; I enjoy MTG because of this. Good bye. Ladderless and pointless solo roaming in WvW is now more appealing (I am not kidding at all).

Just to point out, my Staff Elementalist build wins duels, it’s not glass. It’s Celestial with a twist. Now, you are removing the “twist”. How will you convince me to play again?

Celestial amulet is getting a buff, im going to try it too this patch + the water trait nerf being reversed in pvp is going to give more resilience against the condi spam it’s going to come.

Regarding this I really have to try it first.

This is going to bring WvW and Pve players to spvp and they are the ones making money to A-net, they will have to listen to the increasing players and $$

I agree with you that I will most likely try out the new Celestial amulet, but I would’ve put a berserker gem on it or valkyrie gem, because too much of everything is too much.

If you pick the new Valkyrie you will have the over-needed Toughnes and the meaningless Critical Damage due to the lack of Critical Chance. So in order to fix this you will have to force yourself to get Critical Chance as much as you need/can which in turn you lose the opportunity to get something you want because you have to pick your Trait/Rune/Sigil that you don’t want to.

The game is imbalanced right now not because we have to much complexity but because some SKILLs are just too imbalanced.

Siva Mira.3546:

If you pick the new Valkyrie you will have the over-needed Toughnes and the meaningless Critical Damage due to the lack of Critical Chance. So in order to fix this you will have to force yourself to get Critical Chance as much as you need/can which in turn you lose the opportunity to get something you want because you have to pick your Trait/Rune/Sigil that you don’t want to.

Yes, the removal of jewels creates this problem of “over-needed” stats.

Another possible solution, is to tone down the stats offered by amulets, and increase the stats offered by runes and by traits.

While this example isnt that big of a deal, its more about the idea behind it. We need more customizability and depth not less.

Making the game (too) simple means its easier to understand. But it leads to boredom and ultimately people that stop caring. Depth, complexity and challenging content is what keeps people involved. Turning the game in to a shallow snorefest isnt.

What you (as Anet) should aim for instead is easing new players in to a system. With proper tutorials and presets for example. A good example of presets being used in an MMO can be found in TSW: http://wiki.crygaia.com/view/Deck.

Aberrant.6749:

Ugruk.4069:

This is going to bring WvW and Pve players to spvp and they are the ones making money to A-net, they will have to listen to the increasing players and $$

I don’t see how removing the jewel brings more players into pvp. The ones that play PvE/WvW already know how to customize their stats with far more options. They have jewels/multiple stat choices on the same items with all trinkets, back items, and stats on armors. I don’t see how this helps or encourages them what so ever.

I was talking about the rewards overall and the wardrobe stuff etc not the jewels part

Allie Murdock.8152:

Pyriall.5027:

I find it a bit curious that NOW you quote a forum post, being that is supports your position (even moderately at best). Yet, all the other posts (hello skyhammer and skyhammer farming threads) were thought of as not valid enough.

Pyriall, I don’t HAVE a position. If anything, my position tends to stand with the community. Sometimes, you guys send mixed messaging, which is what I am trying to understand. If I go back to the devs and tell them the feedback you give in this thread, then what should I say when they bring up the point I made?

I’m not going to get into detail on the Skyhammer point because I don’t want to derail this thread, but I will say that using Skyhammer to argue your point is backwards. The only reason I commented on that thread is because I needed to know what I was going to say when I went to the team and explained how the community feels it should be removed. It was literally the first issue I raised to the team the day I came back.

You act like it is ArenaNet vs. the community, and that is just wrong on so many levels. When you see me picking apart your arguments and pointing things out, it’s because I want to make sure you have thought everything through before I raise it to the team.

We all want the same thing. For GW2 to be the best it can be.

Now, back on topic. OE, I think your points are valid. I feel like your thread has mixed messaging in it, though. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you started this thread with the concern that we are removing a piece that you feel is tantamount to build diversity. Can you explain which builds you feel this will affect? I’m asking this because I am seeing posts from others that say it’s not really going to change much.

Everyone kept asking me “Is this patch going to shake up the meta?” and it always made me chuckle knowing what was coming. Given that we are changing so much, it will be a major shake-up for those of you that have known our game through it’s ups and downs. In that sense, it will be a big adjustment.

This is why I ask that you guys try things out before assuming this will hurt build diversity or the game in general. We are shaking things up and changing systems that we have not liked for a long time. Yes, it’s going to be a renaissance of GW2 PvP.

I’m just asking you guys to be open to it. If this goes out and it didn’t work out as we had planned, then we are open to change too.

Now, I won’t post for the rest of the weekend, but I had to get that off my chest. The movers are going to be here in 30 minutes so I need to go scramble to get things ready.

Well said Allie. Well said.

This patch has made me believe in anet again. Finally things are trending in the right direction.

Although I do wish skyhammer would be redone to remove the glass panels or something

Allie Murdock.8152:

Pyriall.5027:

I find it a bit curious that NOW you quote a forum post, being that is supports your position (even moderately at best). Yet, all the other posts (hello skyhammer and skyhammer farming threads) were thought of as not valid enough.

Pyriall, I don’t HAVE a position. If anything, my position tends to stand with the community. Sometimes, you guys send mixed messaging, which is what I am trying to understand. If I go back to the devs and tell them the feedback you give in this thread, then what should I say when they bring up the point I made?

I’m not going to get into detail on the Skyhammer point because I don’t want to derail this thread, but I will say that using Skyhammer to argue your point is backwards. The only reason I commented on that thread is because I needed to know what I was going to say when I went to the team and explained how the community feels it should be removed. It was literally the first issue I raised to the team the day I came back.

You act like it is ArenaNet vs. the community, and that is just wrong on so many levels. When you see me picking apart your arguments and pointing things out, it’s because I want to make sure you have thought everything through before I raise it to the team.

We all want the same thing. For GW2 to be the best it can be.

Now, back on topic. OE, I think your points are valid. I feel like your thread has mixed messaging in it, though. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you started this thread with the concern that we are removing a piece that you feel is tantamount to build diversity. Can you explain which builds you feel this will affect? I’m asking this because I am seeing posts from others that say it’s not really going to change much.

Everyone kept asking me “Is this patch going to shake up the meta?” and it always made me chuckle knowing what was coming. Given that we are changing so much, it will be a major shake-up for those of you that have known our game through it’s ups and downs. In that sense, it will be a big adjustment.

This is why I ask that you guys try things out before assuming this will hurt build diversity or the game in general. We are shaking things up and changing systems that we have not liked for a long time. Yes, it’s going to be a renaissance of GW2 PvP.

I’m just asking you guys to be open to it. If this goes out and it didn’t work out as we had planned, then we are open to change too.

Now, I won’t post for the rest of the weekend, but I had to get that off my chest. The movers are going to be here in 30 minutes so I need to go scramble to get things ready.

I think it’s important to understand that quantity of choices isn’t what players need. What players need is quality of choices. Removing jewels is going remove both quality and quantity of choices for some builds. This is why mixed messaging is occurring, because players inherently know positives and negatives are happening due to this change.

The positive is that the barrier to entry for PvP is lowered, due to the simplification. On the other hand, these ‘minor’ stat changes that occur due to jewels really can give players a way to tailor their stats to more highlight their strengths and cover up their weaknesses.

Really what the nay sayers are clammoring for is better stat distributions period. This can be done with the amulet system alone, and doesn’t require jewels. It just requires an understanding on the development side of what stat combinations the playerbase as a whole wants.

When I reference the stat combinations that people want, I’m not suggesting to continue doing Major Minor Minor stat distributions, but stat distributions more complex than that. Similar to how berserker’s is distributed.

For example, I would put money on players wanting amulets with stats similar to celestial that removes Condition Damage and Healing Power redistributing those points into Power for a balanced Direct Damage Amulet.

This might be something in progress already, but the dev team should take a step back and think about reducing the amount of amulet choices leaving available only stat combinations that can result in builds being used in upper tier play. Reduce quantity of low quality build possibilities, while increasing the quantity of high quality build possibilities to further reduce the barrier to entry.

Maybe this results in eliminating amulets and introducing a new system at some point, but it doesn’t matter as long as the chosen solution is focused on eliminating low quality choices, and offering a limited amount of high quality choices that aren’t too similar.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Just wanted to call some attention to this thread.

It is confusing for me to see this kind of mixed messaging. A ton of people agreed in that thread that there are too many moving parts in this game to balance it well enough. Now you guys are in here saying that removing jewels equates to dumbing the game down.

Hiya Allie!

I want to add that the thread you quoted also makes another very important point: that customisation shouldn’t be too extreme stat-wise.

The benefit of jewels was that it actually helped to promote non-extreme, more balanced builds. Now, with jewels removed, builds will be even more stuck to extreme-burst-or-bunker mentality.

So, even though customisation is being simplified a little bit with this change (something that players agreed to be a good idea in that thread), incentives to prevent extreme situations are being removed as well (while that thread defended the opposite!)

Here are some possible solutions to the new problem, based on what I and other players already said:

• Add more hybrid amulets;
• Or redesign current amulets to give them a 4-stat distribution instead of 3 (aka, how berserker and valkyrie already work);
• Or tone down the stats granted by amulets, and increase the stats given by runes and traits.
• Or just tone down amulet’s stats only, making other stat sources comparatively more important without needing to be touched.

None of those solutions require for jewels to be back, in fact quite the contrary, those solutions transfer the jewel’s incentive-agaisnt-extremes to other existing stat sources (traits and runes), preserving the simplicity that the new system will have with the removal of jewels.

Three different red names involved. Now we need about two more red name posts and this thread will have exceeded the Ranger CDI in every way.

It amazes me that the miniscule amount of player hours given over to sPvP play vs. any other mode still commands the absolute lion’s share of the balance team’s attention.

I prefer to remove the jewels but I can understand problems mentioned here.
I don’t like to think in too many dimensions, that is, skills, traits, runes, sigills, amulets and juwels.

But to encounter some problems, what do you think about raising the trait points from 14 to 20 (70-100) and add a tier4 trait line? So anet can add more trait slots on the one hand (more build diversity) and people can better choose to allocate their trait points.
With this solution, it is simplified by removing one “dimension” but it opens a lot of new ways to play around with builds.

The community is conflicting because what devs say sometimes contradicts with what is being done, like this change (“we want to let players experiment” but at the same time “you may experiment in this way only”).

I have one question though – if this was done to lower the entry barrier, why were infusions and ascended added at all in this game?

It seems you want some progression, which is true in pvp as well, yet you limit the diversity.

I am not bashing, I just want to understand why pvp needs to be more simplified than it already is.

Also, I want to add that the new trait system makes possible the idea of increases stats from traits. Before, in the old (current) system, 1 point was worth 1% or 10 points worth of stats. It was simpler this way.

Anet couldn’t simply have each point offer 1.1%, or 0.9%, because it would make math very confusing to the playerbase, and it would add unneeded complexity.

However, with the new trait system, how much difference it makes if 1 trait point adds 100 points of a specific stat, or if 1 point adds 150 instead? The math is easy in both cases.

Assuming such a situation, that would be 7*50 new stats points, which would translate to 350*2=700 additional stat points. And because trait lines are capped to three tiers, it wouldn’t be possible to specialize to extreme amounts this way, which is what matters. Anet could, then, simply take away 700 points out of amulets, and re-scale pve’s gear.

The new trait system even gives them freedom for diferent tiers of stat gains. Adept stats could be worth +50, master tier stats could be worth +100 (150 total), and grandmaster tier stats could be worth +200 (350 total), for up to 700 points combined too.

This last one would “restrict” builds into getting two grandmasters, though, but would work much like the new rune system does (put the best effects on the end), and make progression simpler and more satisfying to most of the playerbase (whom might have a hard time grasping the idea that grandmaster tiers aren’t always better than adept tiers due to complex reasons). It would be consistent with your rune changes, and fight off the extremes and excess that new amulet’s stats will promote.

Let me be Devil’s Advocate for a moment.

The “prevent excess” argument feels kind of weak. It could be seen as “getting around a trade off” and balance is all about choices having trade offs and consequences.

The stats most people grabbed from the jewel in the examples provided thus far were 125 Power and 75 Precision. In the case of Precision, that tiny amount (I believe was 3-4% crit chance?) was often supplemented by runes and sigils anyway, which are getting buffed. In the case of Power it feels like something that can be lived without, but Power does scale the best in this game.

The last argument I’ve seen most used is that it makes underpowered builds out of the realm of completely impossible. I don’t like the WvW argument because much of the time you don’t know exactly what your opponent is running. They could be running an experimental build as well, and if they’re not you could just be more experienced fighting their meta build than they are at fighting your experimental build.

There’s also the minor point that while jewels bring some percentage of weaker/underpowered builds to the level where they don’t automatically fall over, it still also allows stronger/overpowered builds to be even more efficient. If the top builds lose out on that efficiency as well, does that still automatically mean that the weaker builds won’t be able to contend anymore?

Allie Murdock.8152:

I’m just asking you guys to be open to it. If this goes out and it didn’t work out as we had planned, then we are open to change too.

Off-topic, about balance:

I understand the fact that you guys are gonna wait, because it’s a fact that things will change after the patch.

But the phrase I quoted is important to a big chunk of the community. The problem is, given the history of Anet’s balancing in gw2, can we expect changes within 2 weeks-1month (acceptable to me, maybe not so for others) if things don’t work out?
Can we expect changes based on the community output on these pvp and balance forums? You guys say you focus on data and stats and whatnot, but you should focus more on our output (top tier players, mid tier, etc.) here on the forums even though it’s a minority.

Can we expect as part of this patch, “the renaissance”, a change to the way you guys balance? I like the shaving….

but you need to shave WAY. MORE. OFTEN.

@DiogoSilva.7089

Increasing stats from traits is the wrong move. If anything, they should be separated. Traits are chosen because the effect they provide is good and works with other traits, weapons, and skills to fill a role. In most cases, traits are not chosen for the stats. By shifting more stats to traits, it would make the current problem of not being able to round out the stats on a build even worse. Shifting stats to runes has the same issue because the effects on runes matter just as much or more than the stats.

Creating a hybrid amulet with power, precision and about 400 toughness and 400 vitality could address the problem in the near-term, but it doesn’t address it in the long-term. Elementalists and Guardians may want to add healing power to that. Warriors don’t really want the vitality. It also leaves off ferocity. What about builds that want to mix power and condition damage? The long-term solution is to allow more customization. That way, each build can come up with combinations that get close to the stat distributions that they want after they’ve chosen traits and runes.

sonic.7592:

But to encounter some problems, what do you think about raising the trait points from 14 to 20 (70-100) and add a tier4 trait line? So anet can add more trait slots on the one hand (more build diversity) and people can better choose to allocate their trait points.
With this solution, it is simplified by removing one “dimension” but it opens a lot of new ways to play around with builds.

No. A large chunk of balance problems are the result of so many traits and how they can be combined. Currently, more than half the traits are never used, including supposedly powerful grandmaster traits. Already at least half of the new grandmaster traits will never be used. How do you change or buff all these traits to be appealing without creating a horde of new imbalances? What do you do when two seemingly balanced traits combine to be far too powerful? Unlike stats, the effects of traits are hard to quantify. Limiting the number of choices in effects that change how a profession works is a better route to balance. But at the same time, you need to have enough viable choices.

Surely the problems where the game becomes too complex and confusing both for balance and for new players to find their way come from the runes, sigils and the traits and their interactions with one another and not from the stats? The stats themselves are simple and self explanatory. At least for me.

Personally, I’d prefer if they left the jewels out but split the amulet stats back into amulet, rings and accessories so people could mix and match to their hearts content.

If its complex then teach people about it somehow but don’t just remove it because people might be confused. That’s a very defeatist attitude.

I’m fine with this change, mostly because idc… But I really question who we’re trying to babysit if they can’t understand the jewel in the amulet. No one is that dumb, and It’s really not that difficult. I don’t mean any offense to anyone, for all I know maybe someone is and I wouldn’t hold it against them. But it kind of boggles my mind that this is even a thing…

Personally I’d be more satisfied if it was “For the sake of balance we find hybrids are to strong so we’re removing the jewels to shave them down!” <- weather you believe it or not it’s at least in taste.

JonathanSharp.7094:

By removing it, it’s one less thing a new player needs to learn.

As long as the jewels come with the amulets, a new player shouldn’t have to worry about anything. And unless they’re completely new, they should have some experience with jewelry or upgrade slots in general. I’m not sure how this is different than runes or sigils, which they’ll encounter in every gamemode.

Eles always used valkyrie amuley and berserker jewel. Thats the only one i know that always used a different jewel than amulet.

posthumecaver.6473:

Cush.4063:

Snip

And your opinion represents the %100 of the player base, from the number of the posts here it doesn’t seems to be that way to me.

Some cheese classes like Thief, Warrior only need Berserker, some border line hopeless classes like Elementalist need every piece of fine tuning to be able to exist.

I am extremely happy with my D/D elementalist in WvWvW because I can fine tune every piece of it, I don’t touch it in sPVP because either I am glassier then glass or tanky like hell with no middle ground anywhere.

My post represents 100% of the playerbase in that sentence where I said, “We want balance.” I never said that 100% of the playerbase agrees on removing jewels from amulets. BUT, I don’t think everyone is thinking it through completely on how minimizing “some” diversity helps the game come closer to balance.

I saw a post in here that said Allie was contradicting herself when she quoted that thread and that we also added new traits to the game.
First of all, the way you said it makes it sound like, Example: “Since Warrior/Thief is so OP and gets everything than Elementalist’s should be OP and get everything as well” when in reality you should think about the better of the game by saying,“Warrior/Thief should be toned down because it’s OP to make the Ele that currently is UP more viable in the game.”
I think people fail to see how that can make us closer to balance as well.
Obviously the game isn’t balanced now with the current traits and setups. In order to change that you must add something new to the game if what you’ve been doing (nerfing or buffing traits) hasn’t been working to see if that comes closer to balance. If it does, then they can also start removing certain traits that are out of whack when it comes to balance and leave the new ones as a replacement of sorts. OR, some of the new traits that may have been put in will bring some classes up to par with those traits that may have seemed to powerful compared to other classes before.

What I really think the “PvP” side of this game needs is for everything to be extremely toned down on all sides of the board so that players can’t go to certain extremes that they can now.
Such as full bunkers, or full power, or full condi and how extremely powerful they are in those certain specs. Bunker’s are almost unkillable in certain situations, Power builds can take someone down in literally 3 seconds, and Condi builds are almost completely unavoidable from AOE and extremely powerful at the same time. I think that we should be given stats that can increase our power builds, or bunker builds, or condi builds but just not as extreme as it is now. This will not only make balance easier and more simplified, it will also make fights last a little bit longer to make it more interesting and to allow more ways for games to be turned around from losing to winning.

Eh, I know it’s easier said than done, MUCH easier said than done and people will be angry that their isn’t as much choice or diversity but the game would become much more competitive and watchable. I just hope Anet doesn’t decide to go back on what they’re starting to do because people are screaming about it on the forums right now. I truly don’t think people are fully thinking it through on how it affects balance and the future of the competitive PvP scene.

Just my 2cents and I hope people don’t think I’m calling them stupid or anything. I’m not, I just think people are seeing something and reacting to it too fast without looking at how it could be good for the game but rather being biased and not changing their view because they’re stubborn.

DiogoSilva.7089:

I disagree with some players about the runes. I think the new restriction to runes works. It works, because instead of players mixing three runes for the absolutely best boon duration set, it’ll make them want to specialize on specific boon runes instead. The restriction to runes actually increases rune diversity. It also works because there are so many runes to choose from. And finally, with the best effects now being put towards the end of the set, there’s really no reason anymore to make us click on each rune 6 times, when we can just click on it once.

The removal of jewels, however, creates a new problem: it degradades the potential viability of hybrid builds. But there’s another solution to that problem, that won’t require anet to revert back the new amulet system: add more hybrid amulets. Because only two of them exist.

Why are hybrid amulets so necessary? Why did jewels added build diversity? Because they PREVENT EXCESS. That’s why.

For example, an offensive elementalist can’t exist with additional vitality and toughness points. Those points can be gained through earth and water magic lines, but if the player invests too much on them, they won’t have the offensive points required. So what must the player do? Relying on runes’ stats only fixes one stat, and even then, it might be a bad idea if the lack of an offensive rune were to undermine their build greatly. So what else can they do? They need a bit of toughness, a bit of vitality, a bit of healing power, from equipment’s stats. And light investments on water/ earth traitlines, coupled with jewels, allowed this.

Let me give a few examples:

• Berserker Amulet (light vitality investment) + valkyrie/ soldier jewel and 10 earth (light toughness and vitality/ healing investment) + the old divinity runes, would allow them to give the base survival they depend on, while still specialize them in power.
• Alternatively, Valkyrie Amulet + Berserker Jewel and 10-20 Water + the old divinity runes, would give them light toughness, light vitality and decent healing power, while still allowing them to specialize in power.

But those two examples become more complex when taken into account that valkyrie amulet offers critical damage but not precision. A zerker jewel, divinity runes, 20 points in air and sources of fury could offset that disadvantage. Fortunately, the new sigil of accuracy now offers +7% critical chance instead of 5, and I assume the divinity’s runes overall stats are going to be buffed, so this one might still work.

When jewels are taken into account, it’s easier to prevent excess. What I mean by excess, here, is that jewels make it easier to give to builds just enough stats to keep the builds viable, and then all the remaining stats to what the build specializes at. Now, with the removal of jewels, to several builds, there will exist an excess of vitality, or an excess of toughness, etc, that will buff some stats more-than-enough, at the cost of very important stats that, in their abscence, can potentially ruin those builds.

So we need more «half-hybrid/ half-specialized» amulets. PvP will only offer exactly ONE amulet like that: valkyrie. We need more. “One” is too low of a number!

Something more like this: (major) offensive stat (minor) defensive stat 1, (very minor) defensive stat 2 and something else, or vice-versa, with a major defensive stat instead.

These kind of amulets will allow builds to just have enough of specific stats they require to be viable, while still specialize at what they want, in order to be… viable!

This^^

Allie Murdock.8152:

Just wanted to call some attention to this thread.

It is confusing for me to see this kind of mixed messaging. A ton of people agreed in that thread that there are too many moving parts in this game to balance it well enough. Now you guys are in here saying that removing jewels equates to dumbing the game down.

Can you guys do me a favor and try the game out after the features are in the game before assuming removing this is going to ruin everything?

TL;DR: customization range is different from number of customizations. People agreed in the thread that they wanted more customizations, with smaller customization range. What ANet gives them now is fewer number of customizations, with big customization range.

Hello Allie, I’m the OP of the thread you linked, and I want to reply to your question. But first, let me thank you for listening to players. I know a lot of us appreciate it.

Now, back to this thread, I’m actually confused why you’re confused. The devs seems to misread my post, so let me make it clear again:

I suggest you to reduce the customizable range. For example, an Amulet that gives 1700+ stats to something that gives less than 500 stats points. That will bring the bunker and berserker closer together, and still keep the customizable items that people love.

You keep the customizable range, and remove the customizable items, which is exactly the opposite of the suggestion in the post.

I think it’s my fault that I didn’t make it clear enough in my post? (Although I remember I wrote exactly that, reduce the stats points range). I hope this post make it more clear.

P.S: FWIW, I don’t like that we remove the jewels out of the amulets, since my main build right now has a different jewel slot (Soldier + Cleric).

Edit: added a TL;DR. I guess Allie and I, we misunderstood the definition of customization range, and it’s partly my fault.

DiogoSilva.7089:

The removal of jewels, however, creates a new problem: it degradades the potential viability of hybrid builds. But there’s another solution to that problem, that won’t require anet to revert back the new amulet system: add more hybrid amulets. Because only two of them exist.

Why are hybrid amulets so necessary? Why did jewels added build diversity? Because they PREVENT EXCESS. That’s why.

+1 to this: the huge attribute gap between the burstiest and tankiest builds is the worst cause of imbalance in this game! By reducing the number of hybrid stat options by taking away jewels you’re encouraging people to go further towards the two extremes.

Sunshine.5014:

TL;DR: customization range is different from number of customizations. People agreed in the thread that they wanted more customizations, with smaller customization range. What ANet gives them now is fewer number of customizations, with big customization range.

Yeah I remember Sunshine’s thread too, and it’s pretty clear the devs misunderstood it: nobody in that thread asked for FEWER options! What Sunshine and others were saying was that the extremes should be brought closer together because it encouraged people to go either all-out burst or as tanky as possible. In fact I remember posting in there as well to point out how ridiculous it was that a lvl 80 warrior has 180% the base health of a lvl 80 thief – and how much more extreme that difference gets if the warrior was in PVT gear and the thief was in zerker gear!
Surely it’s obvious that removing the jewel makes things even worse in this respect? I’m really curious how you folks even got the impression that players were asking for this!

PS. Good luck with your move Allie!

JonathanSharp.7094:

Justin had the crux of the reasoning correct – it’s a small tweak to your build that a lot of players could do without. It’s a very small stat change in exchange for another aspect of a PvP build. By removing it, it’s one less thing a new player needs to learn. With runes, sigils, amulets, weapon skills, slotted skills, minor traits and major traits, making a build is a pretty hefty process. Jewels were a very, VERY small % of that overall build.

Trust me, doing focus tests and watching new players play the game, our builds can be very overwhelming. You guys are experts by now, but you have to keep in mind that other players are not as advanced as you are, and removing pieces to the builds allows us to slightly lower the barrier to entry.

I could understand the learning issue if Amulets came without a Jewel slotted. But that’s not the case so I don’t see why it has to go.

Also, the stat difference may be minimal but it sometimes is enough to give you those extra few stat points you need to round out your build.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Can you guys do me a favor and try the game out after the features are in the game before assuming removing this is going to ruin everything?

This is totally off topic but I just have to say it once.

Not everyone is screaming doom and gloom. We are just expressing our concerns. I agree there is a lot of trolling going on but I think it is also due to remarks like this. I sometimes feel I get treated like a real KITTEN (yes I typed that out ) for no reason other than playing this game. I sometimes feel trolled by you, the developers. And that naturally gets me into a trolly mood too.

Proven.2854:

Let me be Devil’s Advocate for a moment.

The last argument I’ve seen most used is that it makes underpowered builds out of the realm of completely impossible. I don’t like the WvW argument because much of the time you don’t know exactly what your opponent is running. They could be running an experimental build as well, and if they’re not you could just be more experienced fighting their meta build than they are at fighting your experimental build.

My build is totally viable. Theorycrafter try to find viable build, and even defy the current best builds. It might probably be the best build available for staff right now. It has every signs of great potential. I have been perfecting it for months and even yet, I am not using it to its full potential. Now, by limiting theorycrafting, it seems to be pigeonholding builds.

It might be a small portion of the stats, but it’s big enough to make the difference. And now, I ask again, is its removal a small thing?

Allie Murdock.8152:

Just wanted to call some attention to this thread.

It is confusing for me to see this kind of mixed messaging. A ton of people agreed in that thread that there are too many moving parts in this game to balance it well enough. Now you guys are in here saying that removing jewels equates to dumbing the game down.

Can you guys do me a favor and try the game out after the features are in the game before assuming removing this is going to ruin everything?

Geeze, between this here and this extremely disapointing response to complaints about the utter destruction of bought and paid for gemstore items, It’s sad to see this is the tact being taken on issues now. Have things really devolved to the point where the professionals working on the game and its community are now at the point of basically dismissing anything that criticizes decisions and telling us we don’t know what we’re talking about?

If you guys were really open to changing things if they don’t work out, you wouldn’t be outright dismissing complaints as has been the pattern lately. I don’t know what your intent is, but I can tell you guys, this out of hand dismissal of any criticism is setting a very low expectation of your intentions after the patch goes live. Right now it’s “your rationale has been ignored, just try it.” It makes me and just about everyone else I’ve talked to expect that the response after the patch will be “your rationale is irrelevant, learn to deal with it.”

I just can’t fathom why this is the message you guys want to send. Given how vehemently you guys seem to push the notion that you actually listen to feedback, it’s weird that when it actually comes time to acknowledge feedback, the response is to dig up a 3 week old post by DIFFERENT PEOPLE and use it to accuse players of being inconsistent. The community is more than 5-10 people that meaningfully post in any given thread. It’s dismaying that this is not recognized, and that the opposite is in fact being used as a rationale to dismiss concerns you guys don’t like.

Alfador.7649:

Allie Murdock.8152:

Just wanted to call some attention to this thread.

It is confusing for me to see this kind of mixed messaging. A ton of people agreed in that thread that there are too many moving parts in this game to balance it well enough. Now you guys are in here saying that removing jewels equates to dumbing the game down.

Can you guys do me a favor and try the game out after the features are in the game before assuming removing this is going to ruin everything?

Geeze, between this here and this extremely disapointing response to complaints about the utter destruction of bought and paid for gemstore items, It’s sad to see this is the tact being taken on issues now. Have things really devolved to the point where the professionals working on the game and its community are now at the point of basically dismissing anything that criticizes decisions and telling us we don’t know what we’re talking about?

If you guys were really open to changing things if they don’t work out, you wouldn’t be outright dismissing complaints as has been the pattern lately. I don’t know what your intent is, but I can tell you guys, this out of hand dismissal of any criticism is setting a very low expectation of your intentions after the patch goes live. Right now it’s “your rationale has been ignored, just try it.” It makes me and just about everyone else I’ve talked to expect that the response after the patch will be “your rationale is irrelevant, learn to deal with it.”

I just can’t fathom why this is the message you guys want to send. Given how vehemently you guys seem to push the notion that you actually listen to feedback, it’s weird that when it actually comes time to acknowledge feedback, the response is to dig up a 3 week old post by DIFFERENT PEOPLE and use it to accuse players of being inconsistent. The community is more than 5-10 people that meaningfully post in any given thread. It’s dismaying that this is not recognized, and that the opposite is in fact being used as a rationale to dismiss concerns you guys don’t like.

I like how you twisted her words there. Saying she said we don’t know what we’re talking about when she never said that. She just said to try it out first before you make such rash assumptions. They have tested it in game and see something different that we might see when we actually play it. Maybe not, that’s why she said wait till we play it. There have been times where the community was wrong about a change before it was implemented such as the thief nerf in December where everyone thought thieves were going to be trash but didn’t realize how much the initiative regeneration actually helped the thieves, maybe even a little too much. They obviously have listened to us and implemented things such as the recent boost to survival for ele and warrior hambow, Decap engineer, and thief Pistolwhip nerf for this patch as well as paying attention to that other thread that Allie linked. Be reasonable.

So much for asking them to have the amulet represent 50% and the jewel 50% instead of the current odd mix.

So they want to hinder build diversity in favor of new players? I think it’s safe to assume that they aren’t going to optimize pvp and are expecting older players to abandon ship in favor of new players.. who will eventually abandon ship once they realize that build diversity isn’t encouraged in GW2.

I don’t get their thought process.

The variation was too limited before, as some amulets cater to specific classes with specific builds. If the jewel doesn’t have any significant affect (according to Jon), why remove it and ruin build potential? This is amazingly counter-productive.

That it´s mixed feedback isn´t really true. In the thread you linked to it´s about stats having too big of an impact, especially the fact that some stats are multiplicative. The reason of complain in this thread is that you only allow black and white builds with the new amulets aka bunker, zerker and condition builds without doing hybrids. I agree with both, what we need is a smaller range of customisation, it shouldn´t be that power builds have 300% the damage of bunker builds, it should definitely be toned down to 100% or maybe 50%, would make balance much easier, too. And in the range of customisation we have then, these 50 or whatever %, we should be able to do with them what we want. The issue of having less hybrid options, say like combining a zerker amulet with a soldier gem, goes in the opposite direction.

The “meta builds” wouldn´t be a must have anymore, because one might more likely accept a 10% difference in theoretical effectivness in exchange for a built he feels more comfortable with then with 50% or 100%.

So, how to achieve this? Offering a lot of hybrid amulets, maybe even take out the black/white stat distribution amulets. Perfectly would be a whole rework of the stat distribution between base stats/trait stats and equip stats. While toning down the range of customisation you would actually achieve more build diversity, not just in PvP, but in PvE too.

If they think new players are slow of mind and can’t fathom the way things work in PvP, how do they think it’s in WvW and PvE, where things are much more complicated.

No more putting on an amulet with no precision and hoping to gain that little extra from the jewel that you desperately needed to make it work. The reason people used jewels that are different from the amulet, is because it DOES matter, even how tiny the difference might be. Take that away and you’re alienating existing players and not making a visible difference for new players.

Malcastus.6240:

If they think new players are slow of mind and can’t fathom the way things work in PvP, how do they think it’s in WvW and PvE, where things are much more complicated.

No more putting on an amulet with no precision and hoping to gain that little extra from the jewel that you desperately needed to make it work. The reason people used jewels that are different from the amulet, is because it DOES matter, even how tiny the difference might be. Take that away and you’re alienating existing players and not making a visible difference for new players.

We don´t need neccessarily gems as long as they give us a big enough choice of amulets though.

I was just thinking that, rewatching the Ready Up. But only adding cavaliers and magi amulet to PvP isn’t going to do it.

Question is, will they make the valkyries amulet vitality based, like it should’ve been, now that cavaliers will be added?

Alekt.5803:

Allie Murdock.8152:

Just wanted to call some attention to this thread.

Can you guys do me a favor and try the game out after the features are in the game before assuming removing this is going to ruin everything?

No. Sadly my Elementalist build will die because of this. I will fill my need of PvP elsewhere. With the removal of jewels, it just doesn’t make me want to try. I play for diversity; I enjoy MTG because of this. Good bye. Ladderless and pointless solo roaming in WvW is now more appealing (I am not kidding at all).

Just to point out, my Staff Elementalist build wins duels, it’s not glass. It’s Celestial with a twist. Now, you are removing the “twist”. How will you convince me to play again?

Fresh-Air-One-With-Air Staff Elementalist, Celestial-Zealot-Zerker Stay-on-Threshold-Self-Heal build. You’ve never heard of that. And it’s super functional, but a lot more in WvW roaming due to stat diversity.

Celestial is getting a huge buff in spvp and you’re worried about your zerker ‘twist’.

Staff ele hipsters theorycraft like they’re ordering a ten pound kittentail at one of those cool bars. You know the ones that play Tame Impala album tracks and have an overabundance of cloth upholstery..

So why exactly are players just supposed to enjoy the “streamlining(dumbing down)” of a game for newer players, when it limits our options of gameplay? Because it’ll become easier to “balance” in the future?

Thats basically saying that we should expect you guys to not be able to do a good job balancing the game unless its easy.

Also, I have played GW2 with many casual gamers and people who are new to MMO’s, and the idea that this will help them seems odd to me. Just dumbing down stat options isn’t really going to do much with their understanding of the game mechanics and what skills to use. Every single player I’ve played with who was new to the game always spent much more time learning about which weapon to try and which traits and skills to use than equipment. Limiting jewels or whatever trinket thing you want to come up with is only really going to effect experienced players and thats a slap in the face to this community.

The difference this will make to new players is minuscule, but the effect it might have to players of hybrid builds is likely greater.

I like the effort Anet has put into this big patch release, but it really has totally missed the boat on many of its intended fixes. After this patch, there will simply be a lot less build diversity and honestly, thats a big hit. I certainly hope dumbing down the game to make new players in China happier will be worth giving some long time players a bit of a slap.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Just wanted to call some attention to this thread.

It is confusing for me to see this kind of mixed messaging. A ton of people agreed in that thread that there are too many moving parts in this game to balance it well enough. Now you guys are in here saying that removing jewels equates to dumbing the game down.

Can you guys do me a favor and try the game out after the features are in the game before assuming removing this is going to ruin everything?

Why don’t you just ask people instead of trying to do what boils down to reading tea leaves? Don’t you have an invitee balance forum anymore?

Im gonna be totally honest.

I dont think removing jewells will hurt the game. Jewels are just minor stats. They add build diversity? Sure, but in the wrong way.

Traits, runes, sigils are the right way to add build diversity and those ways are all being increased and their systems improved upon. That’s a step up for Guild Wars 2 combat whether you like it or not.

Why should the min-max combination of stats play an important role in PvP, when traits/rune are much more about what each player theorycrafts and/or prefers, rather than a simple stats boost, absent of skill or thought put into it.

Alekt.5803:

Proven.2854:

Let me be Devil’s Advocate for a moment.

The last argument I’ve seen most used is that it makes underpowered builds out of the realm of completely impossible. I don’t like the WvW argument because much of the time you don’t know exactly what your opponent is running. They could be running an experimental build as well, and if they’re not you could just be more experienced fighting their meta build than they are at fighting your experimental build.

My build is totally viable. Theorycrafter try to find viable build, and even defy the current best builds. It might probably be the best build available for staff right now. It has every signs of great potential. I have been perfecting it for months and even yet, I am not using it to its full potential. Now, by limiting theorycrafting, it seems to be pigeonholding builds.

It might be a small portion of the stats, but it’s big enough to make the difference. And now, I ask again, is its removal a small thing?

But again, a build is only declared viable when stacked up against other builds. As I said with the rest of my post, does the loss of efficiency through the amulet+jewel affect you so much more than other viable builds that your build is destroyed?

Also, could you link the build or would you rather keep it to yourself longer? I’m curious, but don’t feel pressured to post it.

@ Allie:

You wanted build specifics?

There are PLENTY of builds that rely upon swapping the jewel to get that little bit of something extra that is lacking overall(be it toughness, prec, healing power, condi, vit, whatever).

On the build I’ve been running on my Ranger for the past 6+ months, I’ve been using a combo and it allows me to gain some NEEDED prec(~8%). Without it…the procs I was hoping on are already small, once you deduct 8% from them…yea the build is dead.

Anyways, I won’t be playing Ranger anymore, that’s for sure, as I have ZERO interest in playing with Spirits, which this patch is going to require me to do.

Also, just because you see some people commenting in here that “nothing is being changed”, doesn’t mean kitten in the long run. Great, someone commented that they don’t use jewels, so your answer is to remove them simply because a couple people don’t use them?

Oh and balance/new player friendliness? give me a break: you’re introducing a requirement to purchase new traits/amulets/etc. which will further confuse new players. If you think amulets/jewels were confusing before…then why didn’t you create an actual TUTORIAL?

Creation > removal, but maybe that’s just me.

shrug

Quickfoot Katana.8642:

Im gonna be totally honest.

I dont think removing jewells will hurt the game. Jewels are just minor stats. They add build diversity? Sure, but in the wrong way.

Traits, runes, sigils are the right way to add build diversity and those ways are all being increased and their systems improved upon. That’s a step up for Guild Wars 2 combat whether you like it or not.

Why should the min-max combination of stats play an important role in PvP, when traits/rune are much more about what each player theorycrafts and/or prefers, rather than a simple stats boost, absent of skill or thought put into it.

This isn’t possible anymore with the focus on 6th slot bonus as well as requiring a full set of runes with the patch.

This game so hard and complex. Thank you for fixing hardness of game. Still don’t know what jewel means/is. Want to play pvp by licking keyboard.

You players are awful people, I’ll just start there.

Allie — I’m glad you stood up for yourself under heavy assault, and I’m pretty up hauled over the state of the official forums after news of getting a massive update for free, and the amount of entitlement that goes on specifically in the PvP forums is a horrifying display of this game’s generally kind and helpful population.

Now, as for removing jewels, it’s not a massive hit to anyone’s build, but for example, in my turret death build I use a Barbarian’s Amulet and a Valkyrie jewel, which gives that ever-so-slight DPS boost that makes me an actual threat while still letting me take a hit or fifteen. I’m not going to whine over it, but I did want to show you that some builds are affected ever so slightly. I suppose gaining extra health and crit chance won’t be so bad, though, so I may need to adjust my build when the patch hits live (aside from the AR nerf).

What I don’t like is the idea of smiplifying the game… as if it was too complex.

It’s not what is keeping away new players in my opinion.

I was going to say something about how Bunker Guards will be affected, but I know that nobody, player or Dev gives a flying demonic laser death kitten about what my opinions are.

Let’s just say that some of the builds now require the jewel change to be optimal.

I’ll just say, OE nailed it for the gamers according to his experience as of now with the things he can play with. I don’t place a high amount of confidence in the pace nor quality of change of traits and utilities being able to compensate for narrower stat choices, judging from the past year. If the Devs think they can do better, the playerbase will be the judge opon release. Nothing you say now will appease anyone.

However it’s a game and I’m not popping a vein over it. It’s completely futile trying to change people’s opinions, because there’s a big barrier called pride. When have you complained and insulted and got the change you wanted? It’s their game and they do what they think is best for the game and the gamers, however the change fares. You opinions only matter up to an extent, far below your expectations.

Understand that we are nothing.

You guys can argue or not argue, it doesn’t matter to me. The only certain thing in life is change, so make your point, embrace what is to come, or be left behind.

I will confess, I didn’t read any of the things posted before me. Cba, really.

I would just like to say one thing. As soon as noticed, during ready up, that jewels weren’t there anymore, I immediately messaged grouch about this. Mixing up amulet and jewel is pivotal for many classes, starting by elementalist (kitten this bullkitten full zerker ele). It allows those “balanced classes/specs” (in terms on damage/survivability/support, not actual balance) to be the most effective, and honnestly, trying out new amulets/jewels combos is a great deal of fun in this game. It would be a pity to have it removed. Hope this change doesn’t go through.

How about collecting a list of stat combinations that we want to have as an amulet? Maybe if we make a list with the important combinations that get used now they´ll have enough time and convert them into the new system.

Still takes away the experimenting. No, please, just leave amulets as they are. Add a jewel slot in that fancy UI of yours or something.

At the beginning I was against juwels but I see that it causes a lot of problems and build diversity.

So what about adding a bar diagram for the stats? I am pretty new to GW2 and when I see my stats of my character, e.g. 2000 power, I can’t relate anything to it. For me it is a naked number and I feel a bit lost when interpreting my stats. So a bar diagramm would give a rough idea of my stats distribution and it is easier to play around with sigills, runes, amulets etc.
I have added an example below. So basically if you add some stats, you see the effects like in the picture. It is pretty beginner friendly and advanced player can just ignore it.

butch.8136:

Allie Murdock.8152:

I’m just asking you guys to be open to it. If this goes out and it didn’t work out as we had planned, then we are open to change too.

Off-topic, about balance:

I understand the fact that you guys are gonna wait, because it’s a fact that things will change after the patch.

But the phrase I quoted is important to a big chunk of the community. The problem is, given the history of Anet’s balancing in gw2, can we expect changes within 2 weeks-1month (acceptable to me, maybe not so for others) if things don’t work out?
Can we expect changes based on the community output on these pvp and balance forums? You guys say you focus on data and stats and whatnot, but you should focus more on our output (top tier players, mid tier, etc.) here on the forums even though it’s a minority.

Can we expect as part of this patch, “the renaissance”, a change to the way you guys balance? I like the shaving….

but you need to shave WAY. MORE. OFTEN.

I agree that they need to shave more often, but your second argument is the problem. You literally just suggested that ArenaNet should listen to testimony and anecdotes over actual data, which in any problem solving environment, is just stupid. Data > Player feedback. That being said, Anet should take into account player feedback, because if what players say is true, then Anet’s data should confirm that.

All too often people on these forums blow their analytical skills waaaay out of proportion to the point where MonMalthias’ post is literally one of the only posts on these forums that showed what constructive criticism is (notice his tone, and use of references). It’s a basic lesson taught in college: provide references, check your references, and in environments requiring data, please provide data, not a story that can’t even be verified. If Anet’s data gathering and analysis is the reason why they take so long to shave, then that is justified.

The problem with people crying out over Anet not listening is that they are right, but they don’t understand that Anet is smarter than to just listen to some unverifiable story at face value. They NEED data. If their internal tests bring up hard data that contradicts the unverifiable anecdotes of the players, then they SHOULD keep looking further for other players who may have indeed stumbled upon a legitimate balance issue that isn’t distorting a learn to play issue with an imbalance.

P.S (To other posts here regarding jewels): Most testing and analysis regarding in game stat bonuses like Jewels, for better accuracy should be tested under realistic and uncontrolled circumstances to better determine their actual efficacy, and not merely construed in a theoretical vacuum.