Noob Traps
i know what you mean, and i have to say that i have come too look at the mini map with great scrutiny. I think playing with bads may actually be making me a better player. GL to you sir, i hope new players dont raise your blood pressure.
Traps are meant to be there to help determine which of the team has more noobs.
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They aren’t inexperienced players that do these things a lot of the time that’s the problem. I’ve seen plenty of people that are rank 80 that have been around forever that do it. Some people don’t care to understand the better strategies for winning. They do not care. A good example of this is one awful N/A ranger who grinds a billion games and gets high on the leaderboard every time on Legacy of the FoeFire he will do basically nothing from the beginning of the match but attempt to kill the Lord solo.
(edited by brannigan.9831)
in all fairness power builds can solo the svanyir/cheiftenn pretty quick, A power ranger, and power necro can kill it with out even stopping on the way to mid. as in together as a pair
They aren’t inexperienced players that do these things a lot of the time that’s the problem. I’ve seen plenty of people that are rank 80 that have been around forever that do it. Some people don’t care to understand the better strategies for winning. They do not care. A good example of this is one awful N/A ranger who grinds a billion games and gets high on the leaderboard every time on Legacy of the FoeFire he will do basically nothing from the beginning of the match but attempt to kill the Lord solo.
i seem to know who youre talking about. a certain someone that i raged at and got my other forum acc banned for 2 weeks. worth it.
gerdian
This is the reason Forest is my least favorite map in the ranked rotation. If you’re not in the highest MMR bracket, or are, but happen to be playing with lower MMR friends/guildies, Forest games turn from ‘the better team overall wins’ to ‘the team with the least terribads win’. Players ignore being asked not to go for beasts, or argue with you for telling them not to, and go for them anyway, even if they’ve been sniped previously.
It doesn’t help that this game has no real tutorial. People see 25 points pop up and think “wow, these must be good” without realizing that there are in fact 500 points required to win, and even killing both teams beasts off respawn will only net you a total of 150 points most games, which, even combined with a 1cap all game, means a loss.
I have to agree this is why I don’t enjoy forest at all and I hate playing it more than Skyhammer. But god please no, don’t make it award more points, seeing as it would just result in two group fights at the NPC’s and since lots time they just die to condi, it wouldn’t really bring anything interesting or skillful play, more like luck.
I do enjoy Temple, though. I can’t even tell how many times I’ve had people pinging ferocity like everything depends on it, or rather just all of them die there. I think removing that buff would be a good idea, it’s really not that great any anyone decent won’t even bother capping it.
There is a problem with every map, though. On Legacy you’ll just get people going to lord in the start of the game and leave you 4v5 yelling how it will give the team 150 points. 99% of cases ends in losing. I’m not sure how to solve this, only thing that comes to mind is let the lord spawn at a certain point of the game. Maybe after your team reaches 300 pts.
What I’ve been finding annoying lately is Kyhlo. It was my favourite map but the last few weeks these games were so treb dependant, it took the whole fun out of it. I’ve had enemy teams defending treb in 4 (!!!), I’ve had them constantly repairing it, I’ve had people on my team camping treb the whole time but never ever being able to hit the area we were fighting on and it goes on and on. It really takes the fun out of the game for me, because lots people can’t dodge treb and will just die there and what then?
The biggest problem isn’t necessarily the maps, it’s the players who:
1) Are offended when you try to offer suggestions, e.g. “Skip bosses, send 1 home 3 mid 1 far to steal boss if they go for it otherwise pressure far”
2) Simply ignore you and do whatever anyway
3) Argue with you and insist they’re right because “I was Top X on Leaderboard”
In the end, the mechanics aren’t bad, the player attitudes are… but you can’t fix broken people.
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Well I get that on forest you should convince people how to play but ferocity … this is pure win more.
NEVER have I seen any proteam get it during turneys just because it means losing if both teams are somewhat on a decent skill level. The sole purpose right now is making bad players get it for the scoreboard or because they think it is good. 99% of the time it isn’t and NO it is not “on the way to the sidepoints” and YES it will make you waste a significant amount of time.
With respect to Forest. You are missing an important point. If the enemy steals your beast, it’s a serious chunk of points and more than you would get for holding a point for the same time period.
Killing beast is therefore, logical gameplay. Getting points is well and good, but preventing the other team from getting points is really the same thing with a slightly different perspective.
Mesmerising Girl
With respect to Forest. You are missing an important point. If the enemy steals your beast, it’s a serious chunk of points and more than you would get for holding a point for the same time period.
Killing beast is therefore, logical gameplay. Getting points is well and good, but preventing the other team from getting points is really the same thing with a slightly different perspective.
An incorrect perspective, yes.
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Ad hoc ergo proctor hoc,——- it is rarely true it is almost never true.
Perhaps providing math, instead of just being condescending, would better your argument OP. Also, please do not use “X” person or group does it this way as proof it’s the right way. Heck, maybe killing the monsters is the better way and you are simply trying to dissuade your competition from doing it?
On the subject though, if one change is to be made, it is that the monsters get a proper tagging function. The RNG of last hit is bunk.
[AwM] of Jade Quarry.
Perhaps providing math, instead of just being condescending, would better your argument OP. Also, please do not use “X” person or group does it this way as proof it’s the right way. Heck, maybe killing the monsters is the better way and you are simply trying to dissuade your competition from doing it?
On the subject though, if one change is to be made, it is that the monsters get a proper tagging function. The RNG of last hit is bunk.
No, it’s not. If enemy team holds a two cap for the whole time of the match, they will need exactly 8 minutes and 20 second to reach 500. If your team holds one cap and kills BOTH NPC’s, you’ll have 400 points at the time. How is that better? Not even mentioning, someone can easily steal it, your team will be outnumbered a lot in fights which will most likely result in giving enemy the two cap. (Not counting points from killing people because those are hard to determine. On the other hand if just 4 people run into mid while the other kills a creature, it will give 20 points for killing them so the difference would be bigger.)
(edited by Laraley.7695)
in all fairness power builds can solo the svanyir/cheiftenn pretty quick, A power ranger, and power necro can kill it with out even stopping on the way to mid. as in together as a pair
I agree with that. Ranger usually takes the path that leads to Svanir for better sniper spot anyway. For power ranger, it merely takes around 10 seconds to kill a Svanir while keep on moving toward the middle. Once Svanir is killed, ranger can proceed on to middle and snipe from above.
Anyone else extremely mad if you get those unexperienced players that randomly decide to go for neutral creeps during a match on forest causing the loss of CPs which loses way more points in the end than the 25 you gain?
I am actually really really mad at the noobs who don’t know math who purposedly ignore Svanir and the chieftain, giving the enemy team a 50 point advantage for each, when it takes literally 3 seconds to kill them with 3 players.
Nothing can win you points as effectively, still people go and rush mid which is going to be contested anyway, and leave your team’s beast open for stealing.
This is the reason I NEVER select the forest, as I hate losing to our team’s not knowing how to count.
And by the way, rangers and power necros even need to go this way when opening, to position properly for lich + what rangers do.
(edited by Aenesthesia.1697)
Anyone else extremely mad if you get those unexperienced players that randomly decide to go for neutral creeps during a match on forest causing the loss of CPs which loses way more points in the end than the 25 you gain?
I am actually really really mad at the noobs who don’t know math who purposedly ignore Svanir and the chieftain, giving the enemy team a 50 point advantage for each, when it takes literally 3 seconds to kill them with 3 players.
Nothing can win you points as effectively, still people go and rush mid which is going to be contested anyway, and leave your team’s beast open for stealing.
This is the reason I NEVER select the forest, as I hate losing to our team’s not knowing how to count.
And by the way, rangers and power necros even need to go this way when opening, to position properly for lich + what rangers do.
You’re the one not knowing math.
You’re the one not knowing math.
I am not a math expert, but when a match ends 476 to 500 because someone was yelling ignore the mobs up until the very end where the a single enemy won a 1v3 mob kill, I get a wee bit annoyed.
150 less points for your team in a match is 150 more points for the enemy team, which with a 500 cap is a significant scoring advantage. Dont need to be a rocket scientist to figure that out.
You’re the one not knowing math.
I am not a math expert, but when a match ends 476 to 500 because someone was yelling ignore the mobs up until the very end where the a single enemy won a 1v3 mob kill, I get a wee bit annoyed.
150 less points for your team in a match is 150 more points for the enemy team, which with a 500 cap is a significant scoring advantage. Dont need to be a rocket scientist to figure that out.
If you can’t figure out when it’s time to take out NPC’s and when it’s not, then that’s purely your problem. You have to have someone who keeps going for them leaving you 4v5 on nodes, unless your team is able to win fights when they’re outnumbered (most likely they’re not) then no I’m sorry it’s not better to go for NPC’s.
150 points less yeah but seeing as that one dude has been spending time killing them, you’re most likely losing the game. I did the calculations. If you think that your team can have two cap AND kill BOTH NPC’s then you’re probably just naive or facing a team that’s under your skill level and would have won the game anyway.
Mobs on forest are great! They really help in bolstering your team.
That being said:
- At the start of the match the capture points carry more weight than the beasts. Yes a pain train can kill them quickly, doesn’t mean its worth it.
- The mobs should only be done after the first team fight is over, or if you know the rest of the team is on respawn and you need the points to catch up, OR you want to bolster your lead some by snagging it while the rest of the enemy team is on respawn.
I say again, if it is a close match or right at the start of the match and you have a point neutralized always go for the capture point and the team fight first.
What I think is really funny is the difference in usage of the word “steal” by players.
- Player Group 1 says “steal” to mean “we did substantial damage to the beast, but an enemy player came in at the last moment with a quick burst attack and took the points.”
- Player Group 2 says “steal” to mean “the enemy team killed the beast closest to our spawn.”
Both groups claim that “stealing” is bad, but they are talking about entirely different actions. I fall in Group 1, for what it’s worth.
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Anyone else extremely mad if you get those unexperienced players that randomly decide to go for neutral creeps during a match on forest causing the loss of CPs which loses way more points in the end than the 25 you gain?
I am actually really really mad at the noobs who don’t know math who purposedly ignore Svanir and the chieftain, giving the enemy team a 50 point advantage for each, when it takes literally 3 seconds to kill them with 3 players.
Nothing can win you points as effectively, still people go and rush mid which is going to be contested anyway, and leave your team’s beast open for stealing.
This is the reason I NEVER select the forest, as I hate losing to our team’s not knowing how to count.
And by the way, rangers and power necros even need to go this way when opening, to position properly for lich + what rangers do.
Actually this is how you lose CPs and the match but glad someone is outing himself here. Can only be good for the discussion.
Also pls no more people telling the great truth of that you win the match with NPCs if you are at 475 and enemy at 490. Obviously there are moments when you should go for them but the point of this thread is exactly this “noob trap” of people not identifying these moments correctly and just always going for them.
When in doubt and if you are rather new to the game then always hold point over approaching the neutrals.
Actually I think it is a quite difficult decision which is why I questions Arenanets design choices here. Imo it should either be spawned differently (later in the game and only once) OR give such a clear advantage that indeed most of the time should get them even if it means losing a CP.
(edited by Dojo.1867)
I am actually really really mad at the noobs who don’t know math who purposedly ignore Svanir and the chieftain, giving the enemy team a 50 point advantage for each, when it takes literally 3 seconds to kill them with 3 players.
Nothing can win you points as effectively, still people go and rush mid which is going to be contested anyway, and leave your team’s beast open for stealing.
This is the reason I NEVER select the forest, as I hate losing to our team’s not knowing how to count.
And by the way, rangers and power necros even need to go this way when opening, to position properly for lich + what rangers do.
I think you are very wrong.
1. Only 25 points for each.
2. Prepare to
1) Are offended when you try to offer suggestions, e.g. “Skip bosses, send 1 home 3 mid 1 far to steal boss if they go for it otherwise pressure far”
3. Waste Lich form at start for mob kill?
4. This “3s” can lead to 1 spot vs 2 spot most game what equal to loss
I say again, if it is a close match or right at the start of the match and you have a point neutralized always go for the capture point and the team fight first.
+1
Imo it should either be spawned differently
Why? Mb let it be? It’s one thing between others which unexp player sometime will learn. I mean players should try to learn not only mechanical skills, group fights, but map tactics too. Possibly it is good for game? Really idk.
Some math:
“NPC monsters spawn after some time and then after every 3 minutes in the north-western and north-eastern corner. Defeating them grants your team 25 points”
If u kill neutrals by CD they will spawn approx. at 0m, 3m, 6m, 9m, 12m
It equals to 250 points. 1 captured point give 1 point every 2 sec. If match goes for full duration (15m) equals to 15*60/2 = 450 points per match. If we limit duration to 12 min, then 12*60/2 = 360 points.
So you can go for neutrals whenever u want if enemies are weak, but if they able to realize those time handicap or just steal – choose right moments for neutrals
(edited by Mak.2657)
Actually, this thread shows that these “noob traps” are far less obvious that it seems, which is maybe a sign of good design (after all, judging by the map votes I get in ranked, Niflhel is one of our favorite maps, close second to Foefire in my experience). My contribution on the debate:
- The buff is useless
- Killing the bosses in the very end when you’re behind and the enemy team is bunkering a CP is sometimes a good idea
- Regarding the “rangers can do it in 3s”. Yes, but it takes 0.5s for the enemy thief (or mesmer) to steal it, especially since RF has a very predictable damage outcome.
- A good thief in soloq will often cross and check if the enemy team is doing the beast. If they do, in most cases it gets stolen (unless they have a mesmer).
Conclusion. In soloq, doing beasts is most of the time not worth it. If the opposite team has a thief or a mesmer, you’ll just waste your time while giving away free points. Do them at the end if you’re behind, and pray the RNG god if the other team is there as well.
You’re the one not knowing math.
case A: you kill your beast, you get 25 points, the enemy 0
case B: the enemy kills your beast. you get 0 points, the enemy 25.
B-A = you: -25; enemy: +25. Total difference = 50
Or look at it this way: if the beast is there an no one kills it, you are wasting 25 points.
But the beast does not dissappear, it dies after someone kills it, that that’s gonna be your enemy if you don’t do it first. So you waste 25 points and allow the enemy team to get 25 points instead, 50 is the total loss.
If you still don’t get it, you are 25 points further from 500, and the enemy is 25 closer, so it is a 50 points disadvantage.
By the way, i don’t agree with your other theory either.
Your assumption is that by ignoring beasts, you can hold 2 points for the whole match. But the enemy is going to contest points after killing beasts in the few seconds it takes to kill them, so you start the match with the point capped, but you may as well be wiped out of it. If you think no, you will always hold the point, then your team is clearly better than the enemy and then there’s no contest, but we are talking about two good coordinated teams with similar skilled players. the numeric disadvantage you so dread can be minimized by the team killing beasts acting as a group and not rushing to points 1vs4.
of course loners trying to kill beasts while their team is on a fight are just leaving the door open for steals and leaving their team at a disadvantage, that’s why i so hate the forest, because i see everybody passing on the beast and i know our home guy is going to try to solo it and the enemy’s thief is going to steal it and kill our home guy.
(edited by Aenesthesia.1697)
You’re the one not knowing math.
case A: you kill your beast, you get 25 points, the enemy 0
case B: the enemy kills your beast. you get 0 points, the enemy 25.B-A = you: -25; enemy: +25. Total difference = 50
Or look at it this way: if the beast is there an no one kills it, you are wasting 25 points.
But the beast does not dissappear, it dies after someone kills it, that that’s gonna be your enemy if you don’t do it first. So you waste 25 points and allow the enemy team to get 25 points instead, 50 is the total loss.
While your team loses fight in middle, gives your enemy team 20 points and two cap. Yeah, please don’t. No one good ever does this.
I think you are very wrong.
1. Only 25 points for each.
3. Waste Lich form at start for mob kill?
4. This “3s” can lead to 1 spot vs 2 spot most game what equal to loss
1. see my other post
3. hell no! but taking the back road positions the lich to avoid ccs and damage, which means the first clash in mid is almost always won by my team. If i can do it after killing the beast great, but if nobody goes with me i don’t bother any more and hope for a crappy team on the other side too.
4. yes if your team doesn’t group properly. Walking blindly in a fight that’s not in your advantage is what makes you lose the match, not your teammates actually scoring points while the enemy sits doing nothing.
Mobs on forest are great! They really help in bolstering your team.
That being said:
- At the start of the match the capture points carry more weight than the beasts. Yes a pain train can kill them quickly, doesn’t mean its worth it.
- The mobs should only be done after the first team fight is over, or if you know the rest of the team is on respawn and you need the points to catch up, OR you want to bolster your lead some by snagging it while the rest of the enemy team is on respawn.
I say again, if it is a close match or right at the start of the match and you have a point neutralized always go for the capture point and the team fight first.
This guy knows what he is talking about. +1 #realtalk
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I think you are very wrong.
1. Only 25 points for each.
3. Waste Lich form at start for mob kill?
4. This “3s” can lead to 1 spot vs 2 spot most game what equal to loss1. see my other post
3. hell no! but taking the back road positions the lich to avoid ccs and damage, which means the first clash in mid is almost always won by my team. If i can do it after killing the beast great, but if nobody goes with me i don’t bother any more and hope for a crappy team on the other side too.
4. yes if your team doesn’t group properly. Walking blindly in a fight that’s not in your advantage is what makes you lose the match, not your teammates actually scoring points while the enemy sits doing nothing.
I like that you call your team crappy for not killing NPC and not taking the long way to mid. Brilliant.
You’re the one not knowing math.
case A: you kill your beast, you get 25 points, the enemy 0
case B: the enemy kills your beast. you get 0 points, the enemy 25.B-A = you: -25; enemy: +25. Total difference = 50
Or look at it this way: if the beast is there an no one kills it, you are wasting 25 points.
But the beast does not dissappear, it dies after someone kills it, that that’s gonna be your enemy if you don’t do it first. So you waste 25 points and allow the enemy team to get 25 points instead, 50 is the total loss.
While your team loses fight in middle, gives your enemy team 20 points and two cap. Yeah, please don’t. No one good ever does this.
my team should never engage in a 2vs4 fight. If they do, they are the ones losing the 20 points. I can let you cap mid if it means i get your beast, mine, and then can come and kick you @ss 4v4.
You’re the one not knowing math.
case A: you kill your beast, you get 25 points, the enemy 0
case B: the enemy kills your beast. you get 0 points, the enemy 25.B-A = you: -25; enemy: +25. Total difference = 50
Or look at it this way: if the beast is there an no one kills it, you are wasting 25 points.
But the beast does not dissappear, it dies after someone kills it, that that’s gonna be your enemy if you don’t do it first. So you waste 25 points and allow the enemy team to get 25 points instead, 50 is the total loss.
While your team loses fight in middle, gives your enemy team 20 points and two cap. Yeah, please don’t. No one good ever does this.
my team should never engage in a 2vs4 fight. If they do, they are the ones losing the 20 points. I can let you cap mid if it means i get your beast, mine, and then can come and kick you @ss 4v4.
No point talking to you. Maybe one day you’ll learn how to rotate and pvp and till that day let’s hope we’ll never meet in any of our matches.
Oh, did i hurt your feelings by using arguments as opposed to “you’re the one not knowing math because i say so”?
sorry. I would really like to demonstrate my theory against you but, as i said, even though i try i almost never get a team that makes it happen so…..
case A: you kill your beast, you get 25 points, the enemy 0
case B: the enemy kills your beast. you get 0 points, the enemy 25.B-A = you: -25; enemy: +25. Total difference = 50
Your math isn’t legit. You sum potential point gain and actual point gain. Don’t overcomplicate it. Farm neutrals by their spawn CD from start of game can possibly lead to disadvantageous positions whole round
You give enemy team possibility to 4 (or less) vs 5 on all 3 spots (it doesn’t restrict only by mid point, they can go for ur close too e.g.) for some time.
I can let you cap mid if it means i get your beast, mine, and then can come and kick you @ss 4v4.
You think it is easy to do?
Ok if we have no reputation in ut eyes – I offer you to look some WTS\ESL. They vry rarely do mob kill at start cause it dangerous and unprofitable (depends from comps though).
Oh, did i hurt your feelings by using arguments as opposed to “you’re the one not knowing math because i say so”?
sorry. I would really like to demonstrate my theory against you but, as i said, even though i try i almost never get a team that makes it happen so…..
Nope I just think everybody here disagrees with your opinion of doing creeps at start.
As my preposter already mentioned. No team that knows what they are doing actually does it unless their comp literally allows to do it by walking by without even altering their path. Already creating a 4on5 situation (which you do if you go for creeps, there is no discussing that away) for 3 or 4 seconds can be deadly against certain comps. It matters.
(edited by Dojo.1867)
Ignore them and you might get in a position where the enemy team will simply claim them.
The issue is not that simple, OP. Beast and Ferocity are good objectives when they are done at the right time.
In T-PvP, starting with Beast can be done if the enemy team does not have a thief. You can do Far + Home; skip Mid. While doing so, your home point will use this time to do the Beast, giving extra stats to the Far team while they claim the enemy Beast. Meanwhile, you can be sure that those three guys or even four at mid just wasted time walking to mid. From that, we can expect to start with a 50 points lead and managed to cap 2 points; now is the time for the enemy team to find a way out.
Alerie Despins
(edited by Alekt.5803)
The only time anyone complains about getting secondary objectives is when they lose. Blaming the secondary objective for your loss, is SOP but it is rarely true and almost never true.
It’s not about the time wasted it’s the lack of presence in a team fight.
Lets say you go kill the npc at start. Even if your team survives outnumbered by the time you arrive they already wasted more cooldowns than the enemy so they are at disadvantage. This is assuming equal skill. If your team actually lost a member in that fight you are pretty much staggered. Also good luck taking a node back with all the celestial builds around.
You should only kill the npc if:
1)it’s a game winning tactic..like 475-490 or something
2)you just wiped the enemy hard and got a few seconds to spare to send 2-3 people to kill it fast..assuming you feel spawncamping(which is much superior) is too risky
3)try to steal it if the enemy goes for it
So just played on forest in a trip que, with two buddies.
Our split was
- one home
- one watching the beach for crossers.
- three mid.
Noone crossed the person watching the beach went directly mid.
Here were the enemy team splits
- One home
*Two Beast
*Two mid.
We outmanned them in the first team fight 2-to-1. Steam rolled the fight, they got the beast. And then we capped mid.
They were ahead for all of 5 seconds with the beast kill. After that we were ahead, and gaining double the points in the same time as they were.
There is some math for you on why you shouldn’t ever go mob at start.
It would be cool if ferocity on TotSS worked like this:
When you had capped the buff, your team gets +50 to all base stats for every point your opponent has currently capped.
That means that if you were 3 capped by the enemy and capped ferocity your entire team would get +150 to base stats. It would lead to closer, less snowball games on that map possibly.
Ranger//Necro
But if people don’t rush beasts how am I gonna do this to them?
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case A: you kill your beast, you get 25 points, the enemy 0
case B: the enemy kills your beast. you get 0 points, the enemy 25.B-A = you: -25; enemy: +25. Total difference = 50
Your math isn’t legit. You sum potential point gain and actual point gain. Don’t overcomplicate it. Farm neutrals by their spawn CD from start of game can possibly lead to disadvantageous positions whole round
You give enemy team possibility to 4 (or less) vs 5 on all 3 spots (it doesn’t restrict only by mid point, they can go for ur close too e.g.) for some time.
I can let you cap mid if it means i get your beast, mine, and then can come and kick you @ss 4v4.
You think it is easy to do?
Ok if we have no reputation in ut eyes – I offer you to look some WTS\ESL. They vry rarely do mob kill at start cause it dangerous and unprofitable (depends from comps though).
My math IS legit. When comparing two cases, you have to take both cases into account. Taking just one into account, as you and other people here are doing, implies killing the beast was not an option.
And it doesnt have to do with reputation, for all i care you could be top 1 in spvp. If i dont agree with your strategy i am going to tell you so.
Specially, because you all assume that the team killing mobs has players that walk into a fight seriously outnumbered, in which case said team is going to loose the match with or without killing mobs anyway.
Killing the home mob at start is not dangerous, unless you solo him. A thief cannot cross the map so quickly. Two people can kill it before the thief arrives. Killing the enemy mob is risky, but can be done by a zerg while the enemy team sits scratching their heads in mid wondering where he other team went to.
After killing the enemy mob the logical move would be to go mid, as the enemy can see you going for far and an even fight in far is to the enemy’s advantage.
The difficult part is winning the figt in mid, but that is always difficult. The difference is that now you have a 50 points lead (less actually, as the team was camping 2 points and you had just 1), and that each second of figt in mid costs you points.
I successfully steal enemy mob time to time, if I know enemies are going for it. Just my experience.
You waste time and\or CDs to kill mob, thus in case of decent enemies they can realize this advantage.
Let’s build some model.
There no 50 pont difference for each mob. Let’s see it as shopping: your team spends some resources (ppl time, cds, positions) to buy 25 points per mob. But enemy team (or your team in hypothetical situation with loss 25 points) meanwhile doesn’t waste their resources to buy 0 points. That’s why you can’t sum up actual 25 points gain and potential 25 points loss. Because neutral kills aren’t free, they cost some money (resources). You can do this (sum up) only if enemies spent their resources for 0 points, being AFK for example . But in reality they spend it to buy 2 captured points. What probably leads to loss as I tried to show above (2 points all game > 1 point + neutral farming). In some case enemy team can’t capitalize initial advantage (weak enemies, bad comp, no coordination) and doesn’t able to capture 2 points, but same we can say about neutral – sometimes (often?) u can’t capitalize initial rush because of steal.
I don’t say that your scenario doesn’t work. But in case when both teams are good and coordinated, it is not optimal imo.
Worse situation with ferocity. Taking ferocity can be useful, but in so few cases so better to have a habit to ignore it.
(edited by Mak.2657)
Killing the home mob at start is not dangerous, unless you solo him. A thief cannot cross the map so quickly. Two people can kill it before the thief arrives. Killing the enemy mob is risky, but can be done by a zerg while the enemy team sits scratching their heads in mid wondering where he other team went to.
First of all, it’s dangerous, because you don’t know what build the thief is running. If it’s d/p, you’re safe. If he’s one of the few fools who still play s/d, you’re doomed. He’ll be at the cross road when you’re near your close, and then Inf Signet -> Inf Strike -> Steal and gg, you lost your boss. I do it all the time against sometimes three players, and I take the luxury to Shadow Refuge beforehand sometimes. There’s a video of one guy doing that on this thread, without even using Inf Signet.
In addition, the other team is hardly “scratching their head” at mid: they are sitting on a capture point, by the time you get there, they will have gotten the full cap (one guy will likely port up to slow you down), and you’ll fight over a node that ticks for the opposite team, possibly for two minutes, sometimes longer. That’s 120 points in their favor. Now that’s a bit extreme, but if we suppose that the teams are of similar skill, winning a 5v5 team fight at mid takes some serious time.
It would be cool if ferocity on TotSS worked like this:
When you had capped the buff, your team gets +50 to all base stats for every point your opponent has currently capped.
That means that if you were 3 capped by the enemy and capped ferocity your entire team would get +150 to base stats. It would lead to closer, less snowball games on that map possibly.
I would prefer this A LOT above the current useless implementation.
Make it a way to swing the game actively instead of hoping new players are unexperienced enough to leave their CPs to get it.
It would be cool if ferocity on TotSS worked like this:
When you had capped the buff, your team gets +50 to all base stats for every point your opponent has currently capped.
That means that if you were 3 capped by the enemy and capped ferocity your entire team would get +150 to base stats. It would lead to closer, less snowball games on that map possibly.
That would be sick. Excellent suggestion.
To be honest, such a choice should really depend on the team.
It’s a noob trap if uncoordinated.
Generally in pugs, going for the beast first isn’t usually a solid idea, mostly because of the fight at keep and other points.
If you have a solid team of 3 up at keep for the first bit, a few seconds to take down the beast isn’t usually an issue given you aren’t scoring points at the contested point. Also, arriving late can sometimes give you the upper hand on getting the drop on enemies.
However, usually this doesn’t tend to work out that way.
One has to not only have map awareness, but also the enemies team composition.
Thief on the foe? Best avoid it until its oppertune.
Solid dps foes and yours isn’t that hardy of a group? Better to support at mid foremost.
There has been a few matches where taking the beast has made or broke the game. No different than the Lord in foefire imo. A good team won’t usually need it, but sometimes it can be the turning point of a match.
Duty is heavier than death.
There has been a few matches where taking the beast has made or broke the game. No different than the Lord in foefire imo. A good team won’t usually need it, but sometimes it can be the turning point of a match.
I bet the number of games won because of clutch beast kills is CONSIDERABLY smaller than the number of games lost because players ping the kitten out of the map, forget about capture points, and swarm beast every time it’s up.
Beat a few teams that made those noob mistakes last night when I was running PvP with some guidies (many of whom have less than 50 PvP games under their belt.) It was glorious.
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