Guild Wars 2

Seeing as you are killing off the ele in pvp, perhaps now would be a good time to normalise the health pools. This would make it easier to not only balance PvP, but PvE as well.

At the very least you could buff eles to the 15k category.

Axialbloom.8109:

At the very least you could buff eles to the 15k category.

lol. Eles and druids already have too much self sustain. You want to increase ele even more??

Seriously, eles have been way too OP for too long. Time for those players to play as a more balanced class.

Why? What would normalizing bring? How would it affect other classes? Would you all made it cap at warrior’s health, or would you lower everything to something?
If you lower the health, how will it affect condis/power creep
If you increase the health, how will it affect condis/power creep…

This form of health has been in game since launch, I currently do not see the problem with it, and I’m fairly certain it’s quite far in term of priority compared to many other things (CC, Boons, unkillable tempest and chrono, etc.)
Moreover, Ele still gets their incredible healing capability and passive defense (even if Diamond skin got reworked, but it’s still good (1 condi/sekittenil 75% health (which you can easily get back to))
Ele got low health, but incredible assets in term of healing and sustain, so based on that alone I fail the see how relevant it would be…
They are removing celestial, too, but that’s just good and will make Ele WAY less forgiving to play with.
All in all, I don’t think ele’s changes justifies a normalization of the health pool across the game.

style.6173:

Axialbloom.8109:

At the very least you could buff eles to the 15k category.

lol. Eles and druids already have too much self sustain. You want to increase ele even more??

Seriously, eles have been way too OP for too long. Time for those players to play as a more balanced class.

Removing eles from PvP is not fine.

Normalising health would also make balancing PvE easier. There are many mechanics which down an ele or thief, which a warrior just eats.

Remove aoe heals/protection spam will be fine.

Ele and thief have been builds and have defenses to get around their low healthpool.
A thief with all its stealth and dodge, or an ele with its incredible sustain and healing running with warrior’s HPool? No. Thank.You.
And what about guardian?
Guardian got the exact same HP as thief and ele, do they need a higher one?
Do you think ranger, rev,. engineer, mesmer need higher health pool with all their skills and passive?

Bursty marauder S/F or S/D builds will become all the rage soon, they didn’t kill it off, they are just changing the ele’s role.

Firebird.8324:

Bursty marauder S/F or S/D builds will become all the rage soon, they didn’t kill it off, they are just changing the ele’s role.

Totally, until a thief lands two AA’s on you.

Axialbloom.8109:

At the very least you could buff eles to the 15k category.

I never understood why Mesmers, who have a lot of very low cooldowns blocks and stealths, and teleports, get 15k base health, while ele, who has nothing of those things, is stuck at 10k.

Ele just got 20 skills to rotate around with attunment recharge being 10CD without overload, on top of utility skills.
In many weapons he got 2 skills other than his healing that can heal and cure condis (and that’s not withstanding dodging in attunment when traited, or overload heal)
His earth his often topped with high defense because of various traits and especially focus (reflect/clerar condis and invuln.)
He now got overload water which can heal, his shout which can clear condis if equipped with proper rune. He also had the triple cantrip build which was incredibly defensive and could clear condis faster than reapplied and Diamond skin will not add onto the mix (1 clear condi/sec before 75% treshold is something I’d LOVE to have on my mesmer). He has incredible mobility with easy-to-apply swiftness, teleport and various other skills (burning retreat, burning speed, windborn speed, ride the lightning, updraft) His new elite can save him from life-threatening situation and he got so many auras he’s basically a flashlight in the dark. His condi survival is already high enough as it is, without adding more health to the mixed.
He can heal from many things and got the tools to get away from almost anything beside very stubborn thieves.
Tell me again how he needs more health than mesmers, or anything else for that matter?

Pepsi.8907:

Ele just got 20 skills to rotate around with attunment recharge being 10CD without overload, on top of utility skills.

Ah, this false argument again. Yes eles have 20 weapon skills. But they are punished 3fold for that, which MORE THAN MAKES UP FOR IT.

1. Every ele skills is weaker than other classes counterparts because eles have more skills.
2. Every ele skill has a longer cooldown than other classes counterparts because eles have more skills.
3. Unlike other classes Eles are locked to a single range, they cannot switch ranges in combat.

Don’t forget chill affecting attunement recharges. Heh.

style.6173:

Seriously, eles have been way too OP for too long. Time for those players to play as a more balanced class.

This just makes me not want to take anything you say seriously. No one should be advocating for people to just stop playing an entire profession. (Not disagreeing with you about Ele being overtuned for a while, but remember, they were also bottom-barrel for well over a year. I hope Anet can find a happy middle ground with this class.)

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Pepsi.8907:

Ele just got 20 skills to rotate around with attunment recharge being 10CD without overload, on top of utility skills.

Ah, this false argument again. Yes eles have 20 weapon skills. But they are punished 3fold for that, which MORE THAN MAKES UP FOR IT.

1. Every ele skills is weaker than other classes counterparts because eles have more skills.
2. Every ele skill has a longer cooldown than other classes counterparts because eles have more skills.
3. Unlike other classes Eles are locked to a single range, they cannot switch ranges in combat.

So all of this should justify an increase in HPool? Please, I have 1.5k hours on my ele, half of them from pvp, I know the drill…
It’s ridiculously easy to bring ourselves back to the required treshold for DS to pop again, unless you get focused, which, in any normal game, would result in your death.
And I can’t remember being locked out of ANY attunment unless I messed up my rotation or overloaded the wrong attunment at the wrong time.
As for the longer CDs:

Mesmer
GS: 8,12,20,30
Staff: 10, 18, 35, 35
Scepter: 10, 12
Sword: 12, 12, 15, 20
Focus: 25, 25
Pistol: 20, 25
Shield: 30,40

Guardian
GS: 10,. 15, 20, 30
Hammer: 5, 15, 25, 40
Staff: 3, 15, 20, 40
LBow: 4, 10, 15, 45

Ele:
Fire
Staff: 6, 10 ,20, 30
Dagger: 5, 15, 15 ,45
Scepter: 6, 20
Focus, 20, 40
Warhorn, 30, 30

Air:
Staff: 10, 30, 30, 40
Dagger: 10, 25, 40, 40
Scepter: 5, 10
Focus: 30, 50
Warhorn: 25, 25

etc, etc… There may be that obsidian flesh with 50CD, but then again, what would you expect from a skill that gives you invulnerability for 4seconds… On average it is slightly higher, nothing too worrisome or even close to the 3 fold mentionned…
Wealer? I remember fire grab hitting for 5k and mighty burning ticking off like mad off of people.
Being capable of stacking 25 might alone made up for that plenty, and Fresh air had one of the highest burst in the whole game if I remember right (hard to land however, I’ll grant that.) So weakest skills… still remained to be seen…
Right now they are pushed in a bunker, sustain build, which may explain why the sudden weakening of skills, but what would you expect with celestial? The only thing that made you have higher damage was that you could stand 25might permanently in a fight.

Now it’s more of a healing rotation which makes you capable of very high sustain despite the low health pool. Moreover, yes, Ele is stucked at a single range, but has a wide array of skills available to either close the gap needed or fight in close range while being capable of kiting its survival.

So tell me again how they are punished three fold by their myriad of skills and how it justify an increase in their Hpool?

Pepsi.8907:

So all of this should justify an increase in HPool? Please, I have 1.5k hours on my ele, half of them from pvp, I know the drill…

I have 2.5k hours on my ele, ALL in PVP. What’s your point? none.

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Pepsi.8907:

So all of this should justify an increase in HPool? Please, I have 1.5k hours on my ele, half of them from pvp, I know the drill…

I have 2.5k hours on my ele, ALL in PVP. What’s your point? none.

Of course, you having more hours automatically makes you more knowledgeable and makes you capable of dismissing my point… sure.
I have 3k hours on my mesmer ALL in PvP, and I say that their Hpool is quite fine where it stand, which void any and all kind of arguments you could bring against that statement unless you have more hours than me on mesmer in pvp, since it correlates directly to one’s own knowledge of the class.
What’s your point again for ele’s need to have it’s health increased?

Funny how apparently when it’s about YOUR playtime it is relevant, but when it’s other players it doesn’t say anything.

I’ll simply ignore you because you’ve shown that you’re just trolling.

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Funny how apparently when it’s about YOUR playtime it is relevant, but when it’s other players it doesn’t say anything.

I’ll simply ignore you because you’ve shown that you’re just trolling.

Without Celestial and the DS immunity, eles will just get nuked down. Giving them more base HP would help greatly with countering this.

Axialbloom.8109:

Without Celestial and the DS immunity, eles will just get nuked down. Giving them more base HP would help greatly with countering this.

This. So much.

I also do think that the difference in HP is responsible for the whacky balance of thieves and eles (and guardians too but they are op in a discreete way). The devs have to balance the lack of passive hp by atcive skill without making the class unplayable for low skill players or op by high skill players. That is almost impossible to achieve and results in that yoyo balance we have seen.

Th diff in health pools is also a problem in pve. For example when tranformed in Caithe the health pools are kept but the skills noralized, bb the compensations for low hp. (This happens with almost all transforms. Exceptions being in minigames like snowball mayhem)

Imho the health pools should be normalized and the traits and skills toned accordingly. Wthout it we won’t ever have anything approaching balance.

Normalizing everyone to 15k base health would go a long way in giving classes more build diversity and making the game overall more balanced.

Or even make the tiers 14k, 15k and 16k base health, so you still have some variation but nothing gamebreaking.

10k base health is simply unplayable in a game where there are skills that can crit for 9+k damage.

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Normalizing everyone to 15k base health would go a long way in giving classes more build diversity and making the game overall more balanced.

Or even make the tiers 14k, 15k and 16k base health, so you still have some variation but nothing gamebreaking.

10k base health is simply unplayable in a game where there are skills that can crit for 9+k damage.

I don’t think having 10K hp is the main problem. It never was before really. You just took vit from traits or before that from jewels. The problem is there are things that hit as hard as 9K. The power creep has been the problem.

Laraley.7695:

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Normalizing everyone to 15k base health would go a long way in giving classes more build diversity and making the game overall more balanced.

Or even make the tiers 14k, 15k and 16k base health, so you still have some variation but nothing gamebreaking.

10k base health is simply unplayable in a game where there are skills that can crit for 9+k damage.

I don’t think having 10K hp is the main problem. It never was before really. You just took vit from traits or before that from jewels. The problem is there are things that hit as hard as 9K. The power creep has been the problem.

Agree. IDK why they ever thought that having attacks that can 1 shot someone was a good idea.

People say ele has insane sustain. It’s true. The problem is, no amount of healing will help you if you are instantly down. You need to survive the initial assault for it to matter at all.

If you go with an offensive build you are prone to explode if someone look at you. If you spec defensively you aren’t as good as others in that game mode…

Laraley.7695:

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Normalizing everyone to 15k base health would go a long way in giving classes more build diversity and making the game overall more balanced.

Or even make the tiers 14k, 15k and 16k base health, so you still have some variation but nothing gamebreaking.

10k base health is simply unplayable in a game where there are skills that can crit for 9+k damage.

I don’t think having 10K hp is the main problem. It never was before really. You just took vit from traits or before that from jewels. The problem is there are things that hit as hard as 9K. The power creep has been the problem.

10k base health wasn’t as much of a problem back when you would get stats from traits and could use a different jewel in your amulet.

Now that all those things to get stats from are gone, 10k base health means that every amulet that doesn’t have vitality is automatically unusable. So you NEED vitality, and then you NEED power/crit/ferocity because eles can’t do condition damage really.

So much for amulet choice.

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Laraley.7695:

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Normalizing everyone to 15k base health would go a long way in giving classes more build diversity and making the game overall more balanced.

Or even make the tiers 14k, 15k and 16k base health, so you still have some variation but nothing gamebreaking.

10k base health is simply unplayable in a game where there are skills that can crit for 9+k damage.

I don’t think having 10K hp is the main problem. It never was before really. You just took vit from traits or before that from jewels. The problem is there are things that hit as hard as 9K. The power creep has been the problem.

10k base health wasn’t as much of a problem back when you would get stats from traits and could use a different jewel in your amulet.

Now that all those things to get stats from are gone, 10k base health means that every amulet that doesn’t have vitality is automatically unusable. So you NEED vitality, and then you NEED power/crit/ferocity because eles can’t do condition damage really.

So much for amulet choice.

Again, you wouldn’t have to if they actually didn’t increase the damage output, but lower it so it corelates with the reduced healh pools – power creep.

Laraley.7695:

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Laraley.7695:

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Normalizing everyone to 15k base health would go a long way in giving classes more build diversity and making the game overall more balanced.

Or even make the tiers 14k, 15k and 16k base health, so you still have some variation but nothing gamebreaking.

10k base health is simply unplayable in a game where there are skills that can crit for 9+k damage.

I don’t think having 10K hp is the main problem. It never was before really. You just took vit from traits or before that from jewels. The problem is there are things that hit as hard as 9K. The power creep has been the problem.

10k base health wasn’t as much of a problem back when you would get stats from traits and could use a different jewel in your amulet.

Now that all those things to get stats from are gone, 10k base health means that every amulet that doesn’t have vitality is automatically unusable. So you NEED vitality, and then you NEED power/crit/ferocity because eles can’t do condition damage really.

So much for amulet choice.

Again, you wouldn’t have to if they actually didn’t increase the damage output, but lower it so it corelates with the reduced healh pools – power creep.

Yeah, sure, but the chance of Anet actually cutting EVERYONE’s damage IN HALF is basically zero. Below zero even.

More base health is a tried and true design to counter power creep a bit though, look at World of Warcraft that went from people having around 3000 health in vanilla to like 3 million in the addons because of power creep in damage. That meant though, that time-to-kill in pvp would stay relatively constant over the game’s lifespan.

With the damage increases they could probably do something like 14k, 16.5k, 19k. That would be at least a step in the right direction for now.

If they entirely did away with HP benefits, they’d have to rework sustain options too for the higher HP classes.

Normalizing health pools would effectively kill off warriors and place necros at a severe disadvantage. The only major difference between guardian and warrior was the huge health difference assuming the same gear. Give guardian the same HP as warrior and no one could ever justify playing warrior. Ele and druid have a ton of sustain. Giving them the same HP as warrior would turn them into even more terrifying monsters than they are currently. Also, considering the sage/menders amulets being released with the patch, would they not still work with ele? I mean, lets be honest, toughness scales very poorly vs power specs and condi bypasses it entirely. With ele still having access to a ton of 40% protection, is this really that bad of a change?

SlayerSixx.5763:

Normalizing health pools would effectively kill off warriors and place necros at a severe disadvantage. The only major difference between guardian and warrior was the huge health difference assuming the same gear. Give guardian the same HP as warrior and no one could ever justify playing warrior. Ele and druid have a ton of sustain. Giving them the same HP as warrior would turn them into even more terrifying monsters than they are currently. Also, considering the sage/menders amulets being released with the patch, would they not still work with ele? I mean, lets be honest, toughness scales very poorly vs power specs and condi bypasses it entirely. With ele still having access to a ton of 40% protection, is this really that bad of a change?

When will people realize that sustain does nothing against focus burst? Also, I think everyone is aware that changing base health would mean some re-balancing has to be done, but it would probably lead to a healthier game.

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

SlayerSixx.5763:

Normalizing health pools would effectively kill off warriors and place necros at a severe disadvantage. The only major difference between guardian and warrior was the huge health difference assuming the same gear. Give guardian the same HP as warrior and no one could ever justify playing warrior. Ele and druid have a ton of sustain. Giving them the same HP as warrior would turn them into even more terrifying monsters than they are currently. Also, considering the sage/menders amulets being released with the patch, would they not still work with ele? I mean, lets be honest, toughness scales very poorly vs power specs and condi bypasses it entirely. With ele still having access to a ton of 40% protection, is this really that bad of a change?

When will people realize that sustain does nothing against focus burst?

When will you realize that lower HP not only have better sustain, but usually better mitigation, and regardless of focus burst, sustain is still necessary to recover from burst.

Also: Take a note how for 3 years Necromancer was always primary target.

It’s a mixed bag of mobility, motivations and soak. Necromancers gives up most of all of them for additional Soak.

Getting focussed by more than one person should result in a death regardless of what you’re building. Giving ele a free 19k base HP (cele put them around 15-16k?), would give ele the chance to play something like the new sages amulet or even carrion. Sure, their power spikes wouldn’t be anything special considering 0 precision, but they’d heal just as hard only with a ridiculously bigger pool to sustain off of.

Why was cele such a monster to begin with? What is the main gripe you see every ele mention when talking about the removal of cele? Cele was the only amulet to give ele the health pool they needed with adequate offensive stats for them to work with. No need to mention toughness or healing power considering their poor scaling (healing power even more so than toughness).

Of course, I could’ve simply misunderstood you and you must be complaining about the fact that you simply cannot rofltank 2-3 people at a time while still dealing decent damage.

ronpierce.2760:

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

SlayerSixx.5763:

Normalizing health pools would effectively kill off warriors and place necros at a severe disadvantage. The only major difference between guardian and warrior was the huge health difference assuming the same gear. Give guardian the same HP as warrior and no one could ever justify playing warrior. Ele and druid have a ton of sustain. Giving them the same HP as warrior would turn them into even more terrifying monsters than they are currently. Also, considering the sage/menders amulets being released with the patch, would they not still work with ele? I mean, lets be honest, toughness scales very poorly vs power specs and condi bypasses it entirely. With ele still having access to a ton of 40% protection, is this really that bad of a change?

When will people realize that sustain does nothing against focus burst?

When will you realize that lower HP not only have better sustain, but usually better mitigation, and regardless of focus burst, sustain is still necessary to recover from burst.

Also: Take a note how for 3 years Necromancer was always primary target.

It’s a mixed bag of mobility, motivations and soak. Necromancers gives up most of all of them for additional Soak.

I’ve edited the post you quoted some time ago to say that of course normalizing health pools or even just changing the tiers would mean rebalancing a lot of classes sustain, but it would probably lead to a healthier game.

The problem is no amount of sustain or even mobility helps you against a 10k crit when you only have 10k health.

Don’t know why people are salty about Eles being “OP” this season. Ele is my favorite class and I have barely touched it.

Auramancer/Celestial is mind numbing and it was our only viable spec.

People forget that to have such sustain ele/tempest needs to be traited fully into defense (aka bunker) which takes away any kind of diversity. Normalizing the HP to 13-15k will give more margin to use different trait lines other than earth/water/arcana and earth/water/tempest.

Pepsi.8907:

Guardian got the exact same HP as thief and ele, do they need a higher one?

Force of Will
Guardians have the option.

Of burning an entire trait line that barely helps DPS. For support guards, FoW competes with the shout trait sooooooooooooo…..

style.6173:

Axialbloom.8109:

At the very least you could buff eles to the 15k category.

lol. Eles and druids already have too much self sustain. You want to increase ele even more??

Seriously, eles have been way too OP for too long. Time for those players to play as a more balanced class.

I spy with my eye someone whos never played ele in ranked for very long. normalizing the hp pools of class’ with ~11k hp pools to 15k is a smart move and opens up diversity. Of course not everything is black and white in this game so other changes would have to be kept in mind as well.

SlayerSixx.5763:

Of burning an entire trait line that barely helps DPS. For support guards, FoW competes with the shout trait sooooooooooooo…..

My point, guardian has the option even if need to give up on dps. You aren’t forced into take Honor, Virtues and Valor to be able to have the required sustain to not be nuked out in 2 seconds.

Ele doesn’t have that option. You need those 3 trait lines to be able to survive, there is no other option.