Guild Wars 2

Information pulled from:
1) en.gw2skills.net/editor
2) wiki.guildwars2.com

Shadow Assault = skill #5 on spear for 5 initiative gives 4 seconds of evade

5 init per 4 seconds of evade and 3 hits
15 init… 12 seconds of constant evade

1 init every 1.33 seconds over 12 seconds = 9 init
2 init every 10 seconds (Quick recovery) over 12 seconds = 2 init
2 init for each signet (signet use) = 4 init (24 second cool down)

15 init gained over the 12 seconds of evade = 12 more seconds of evade

1 init every 1.33 seconds over 12 sec = 9 init
2 init every 10 seconds (quick recovery) over 12 seconds = 2 init
1 signet (signet use) (36 second coold down) = 2 init

12 init gained over the 12 seconds of evade = 8 more seconds of evade with 2 init left over

1 init every 1.33 seconds over 8 seconds = 6 init
2 init every 10 seconds (quick recovery) over 8 seconds = 2 init (counting the extra 2 seconds in the above 1 12 second blocks)

8 init gained over the 8 seconds + 2 spare init = 10 init for 8 more seconds of evade

1 init every 1.33 seconds over 8 sec = 6 init
2 init every 10 seconds over 8 seconds = 2 init (counting the extra 2 seconds in the 2nd 12 second block)
2 signets off 24 second cool down = 4 init

12 init gained over 8 seconds = 8 more seconds of evade (2 left over init)

1 init every 1.33 seconds over 8 seconds = 6 init
1 signet (signet use) = 2 init

8 init = 4 more seconds of evade

12+12+8+8+8+4 = 52 seconds of constant evade without the need to even hit someone.

If against melee

322 damage per attack, 3 attacks per cast = 966
13 casts = 12558 damage

Throw berserkers ammy/jewel on because no need for defense with constant evade

592 * 3* 13 = 23088 damage

This is not including any crits that would a) up the damage and chance to activate Opportunist and gain 1 initiative per crit

How do you fight this?

How is this fair or fun to play against….

Use ranged weapon,Guardian anchor etc and Thief is down =)

Ranged weapons do not work again evade… that’s still 52 seconds of immunity sitting on capture point.

Underwater combat according to Anet doesn’t matter in esports, once you have 2 or more ppl, that theif is going to drop… quick (personal experience using this cheese method)

I watched a thief do exactly this with 3 people around him… and just evaded all damage for 40 seconds until his teammates arrived… That’s 40 seconds we can’t cap 1 of 3 points… you can have the whole team on the thief. Constant evade avoids ALL damage.

If you know how to time your skills, there’s a window between each shadow assault where you can lift or sink the thief, which will result in him dying rather quickly. Go to a hotjoin with a friend and try it out.

Please talk that to Ranger’s face

Here is what you do:

See animation.
Move away.
Laugh.

Thread after thread after thread complaining about one class – the Thief.

1. The class isn’t too strong and everyone else just needs to L2P.
2. The class is too strong and needs toned-down slightly.

I wonder which one is closer to the truth?

I go with the third which is Thief to be adjusted to some extend and people need to L2P, for both Thief User as well as Counter.

This is why raid on cap. is not in tourney rotation. underwater combat is not balanced. Simple.

Yes, we all know that spear 5 is unbalanced.

Yes, underwater combat is unbalanced.

No, I haven’t the slightest idea why you guys are QQ’ing over a problem that everybody knows needs work, as if we didn’t know it was an issue.

Enmity.3428:

Thread after thread after thread complaining about one class – the Thief.

1. The class isn’t too strong and everyone else just needs to L2P.
2. The class is too strong and needs toned-down slightly.

I wonder which one is closer to the truth?

So if I create thirty threads about how OP necro is, that means necro needs to be nerfed?

Stealth.9324:

I go with the third which is Thief to be adjusted to some extend and people need to L2P, for both Thief User as well as Counter.

Yeah, it is a mixture of both, but I don’t think it’s an even mixture by any means.

As for Thief players learning more “skillful” play – that won’t happen without changes to the class as there’s little to no incentive to do so when mastering the basic, powerful and spammable attacks is so easy and so effective.

Enmity.3428:

Stealth.9324:

I go with the third which is Thief to be adjusted to some extend and people need to L2P, for both Thief User as well as Counter.

Yeah, it is a mixture of both, but I don’t think it’s an even mixture by any means.

As for Thief players learning more “skillful” play – that won’t happen without changes to the class as there’s little to no incentive to do so when mastering the basic, powerful and spammable attacks is so easy and so effective.

Actually, it’s inefficient, tactically and positionally inferior, and easily counterable.

Spear #5 spam is worse than spear #3 spam anyway Except in 1v3 or more situations but then Spear #5 spam is more of a stalling tactic than a killing tactic.

Underwater combat in general is really, really bad. Half your utility skills don’t even work underwater, making some builds worthless by virtue of going in. Like, it’s fun how Thieves don’t have even one deception skill that works underwater.

That some skills are flat out broken in water is no surprise.

and after that you can evade with your energy and maybe use roll for initiative utility and stealport right back on the point..

then you can steal a ranger(?) to get http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Eat_Egg which is another initiative gain..

i was sitting on ruins in a 1vs5 for like 2-3 minutes till i ran out of initiative/killed myself with retaliation.

so yeah, this is pretty broken, but so are other things especially underwater.

Underwater is totally unbalanced for PVP, news?

I’d rather like to see ranger’s downed state under water nerfed … nearly unkillable underwater 1v1 since the reg from the pet is exorbitant high.

Well hey there Jastorm.

I see you made a thread about last night.

Arganthium.5638:

Enmity.3428:

Stealth.9324:

I go with the third which is Thief to be adjusted to some extend and people need to L2P, for both Thief User as well as Counter.

Yeah, it is a mixture of both, but I don’t think it’s an even mixture by any means.

As for Thief players learning more “skillful” play – that won’t happen without changes to the class as there’s little to no incentive to do so when mastering the basic, powerful and spammable attacks is so easy and so effective.

Actually, it’s inefficient, tactically and positionally inferior, and easily counterable.

My Thief disagrees with you.

So does my Warrior.

Yes, I am not quite sure why Arenanet has not just come right out and made the Thief immune to all damage. Would certainly not be too far from what the profession is and can do now. Just give them permanent evade along with their permanent stealth and be done with it.

Thanks.

but, …. but i was think the rangers are the
real kings of underwater fights

now im sad

i hope at next patch are only underwater buffs for ranger again
because i cant accept when thief is king of the waterworld now!

Enmity.3428:

Arganthium.5638:

Enmity.3428:

Stealth.9324:

I go with the third which is Thief to be adjusted to some extend and people need to L2P, for both Thief User as well as Counter.

Yeah, it is a mixture of both, but I don’t think it’s an even mixture by any means.

As for Thief players learning more “skillful” play – that won’t happen without changes to the class as there’s little to no incentive to do so when mastering the basic, powerful and spammable attacks is so easy and so effective.

Actually, it’s inefficient, tactically and positionally inferior, and easily counterable.

My Thief disagrees with you.

So does my Warrior.

Cool. So where’s your credibility in the community?

Arganthium.5638:

Enmity.3428:

Arganthium.5638:

Enmity.3428:

Stealth.9324:

I go with the third which is Thief to be adjusted to some extend and people need to L2P, for both Thief User as well as Counter.

Yeah, it is a mixture of both, but I don’t think it’s an even mixture by any means.

As for Thief players learning more “skillful” play – that won’t happen without changes to the class as there’s little to no incentive to do so when mastering the basic, powerful and spammable attacks is so easy and so effective.

Actually, it’s inefficient, tactically and positionally inferior, and easily counterable.

My Thief disagrees with you.

So does my Warrior.

Cool. So where’s your credibility in the community?

Credibility? lmao.

1. The number of threads complaining about Thieves, (S/D in particular.) – Why do you think that is? No other class receives anywhere near as much negative attention as the Thief. This is not by coincidence.

If there wasn’t a problem, there wouldn’t be a deluge of threads complaining about them.

2. The validity of the criticisms made against this build – It’s almost universally recognised that it’s an overtly strong build, and one which takes comparatively little skill to be successful with. The complaints focus on the same skills.

If there wasn’t a problem, there wouldn’t be a consensus on which skills are problematic.

3. The popularity of this build – Players generally gravitate towards the most powerful and effective build. This explains why there are there so many [double] S/D Thieves. Builds which are “inefficient, tactically and positionally inferior, and easily counterable” are not used in as great a number as we see this one used.

If there wasn’t a problem, this build would not be so overly-represented in matches.

The Thief class receives the most criticism.
The complaints are all similar in nature.
The problematic build is extremely common.

You can question my credibility all you want but what you can’t do is refute any of the points I’ve made.

[Apologies to the OP for going off-topic.]

Enmity.3428:

Arganthium.5638:

Enmity.3428:

Arganthium.5638:

Enmity.3428:

Stealth.9324:

I go with the third which is Thief to be adjusted to some extend and people need to L2P, for both Thief User as well as Counter.

Yeah, it is a mixture of both, but I don’t think it’s an even mixture by any means.

As for Thief players learning more “skillful” play – that won’t happen without changes to the class as there’s little to no incentive to do so when mastering the basic, powerful and spammable attacks is so easy and so effective.

Actually, it’s inefficient, tactically and positionally inferior, and easily counterable.

My Thief disagrees with you.

So does my Warrior.

Cool. So where’s your credibility in the community?

Credibility? lmao.

1. The number of threads complaining about Thieves, (S/D in particular.) – Why do you think that is? No other class receives anywhere near as much negative attention as the Thief. This is not by coincidence.

If there wasn’t a problem, there wouldn’t be a deluge of threads complaining about them.

2. The validity of the criticisms made against this build – It’s almost universally recognised that it’s an overtly strong build, and one which takes comparatively little skill to be successful with. The complaints focus on the same skills.

If there wasn’t a problem, there wouldn’t be a consensus on which skills are problematic.

3. The popularity of this build – Players generally gravitate towards the most powerful and effective build. This explains why there are there so many [double] S/D Thieves. Builds which are “inefficient, tactically and positionally inferior, and easily counterable” are not used in as great a number as we see this one used.

If there wasn’t a problem, this build would not be so overly-represented in matches.

The Thief class receives the most criticism.
The complaints are all similar in nature.
The problematic build is extremely common.

You can question my credibility all you want but what you can’t do is refute any of the points I’ve made.

[Apologies to the OP for going off-topic.]

Yeah I’m going to side with you on this. Questioning someone’s credibility is an attack on the person instead of the subject and you made good points.

If the point is valid, I don’t care if you’ve never played the game before and if you have all the credibility in the world it doesn’t mean anything if your argument is hollow.

I’ll vouch that played right, Thief while underwater, is such an easy mode / cheese victory if you control the point. Spam 5 all day, and if you dare run out of initiative you have underwater dodges, heal stealth, and if you play SA heavy builds you can steal stealth your way out of possibly dying.

Really … all you have to do is survive while the sharks destroy everyone for you. Because AI and not requiring skill to win seems to be a trend in this game … and probably why it isn’t accepted as competitive esports material.

CollegeDowntime.4187:

Enmity.3428:

Arganthium.5638:

Enmity.3428:

Arganthium.5638:

Enmity.3428:

Stealth.9324:

I go with the third which is Thief to be adjusted to some extend and people need to L2P, for both Thief User as well as Counter.

Yeah, it is a mixture of both, but I don’t think it’s an even mixture by any means.

As for Thief players learning more “skillful” play – that won’t happen without changes to the class as there’s little to no incentive to do so when mastering the basic, powerful and spammable attacks is so easy and so effective.

Actually, it’s inefficient, tactically and positionally inferior, and easily counterable.

My Thief disagrees with you.

So does my Warrior.

Cool. So where’s your credibility in the community?

Credibility? lmao.

1. The number of threads complaining about Thieves, (S/D in particular.) – Why do you think that is? No other class receives anywhere near as much negative attention as the Thief. This is not by coincidence.

If there wasn’t a problem, there wouldn’t be a deluge of threads complaining about them.

2. The validity of the criticisms made against this build – It’s almost universally recognised that it’s an overtly strong build, and one which takes comparatively little skill to be successful with. The complaints focus on the same skills.

If there wasn’t a problem, there wouldn’t be a consensus on which skills are problematic.

3. The popularity of this build – Players generally gravitate towards the most powerful and effective build. This explains why there are there so many [double] S/D Thieves. Builds which are “inefficient, tactically and positionally inferior, and easily counterable” are not used in as great a number as we see this one used.

If there wasn’t a problem, this build would not be so overly-represented in matches.

The Thief class receives the most criticism.
The complaints are all similar in nature.
The problematic build is extremely common.

You can question my credibility all you want but what you can’t do is refute any of the points I’ve made.

[Apologies to the OP for going off-topic.]

Yeah I’m going to side with you on this. Questioning someone’s credibility is an attack on the person instead of the subject and you made good points.

If the point is valid, I don’t care if you’ve never played the game before and if you have all the credibility in the world it doesn’t mean anything if your argument is hollow.

His claim (“my thief and warrior disagree with you”, related to something else I had written) was based on the premise of his own credibility, that his point was moot if he didn’t have some kind of authoritative source to justify that what he was saying was true and applicable. Thus, this is not so much a personal attack as it is a question of justification.

Enmity.3428:

Arganthium.5638:

Enmity.3428:

Arganthium.5638:

Enmity.3428:

Stealth.9324:

I go with the third which is Thief to be adjusted to some extend and people need to L2P, for both Thief User as well as Counter.

Yeah, it is a mixture of both, but I don’t think it’s an even mixture by any means.

As for Thief players learning more “skillful” play – that won’t happen without changes to the class as there’s little to no incentive to do so when mastering the basic, powerful and spammable attacks is so easy and so effective.

Actually, it’s inefficient, tactically and positionally inferior, and easily counterable.

My Thief disagrees with you.

So does my Warrior.

Cool. So where’s your credibility in the community?

Credibility? lmao.

1. The number of threads complaining about Thieves, (S/D in particular.) – Why do you think that is? No other class receives anywhere near as much negative attention as the Thief. This is not by coincidence.

If there wasn’t a problem, there wouldn’t be a deluge of threads complaining about them.

2. The validity of the criticisms made against this build – It’s almost universally recognised that it’s an overtly strong build, and one which takes comparatively little skill to be successful with. The complaints focus on the same skills.

If there wasn’t a problem, there wouldn’t be a consensus on which skills are problematic.

3. The popularity of this build – Players generally gravitate towards the most powerful and effective build. This explains why there are there so many [double] S/D Thieves. Builds which are “inefficient, tactically and positionally inferior, and easily counterable” are not used in as great a number as we see this one used.

If there wasn’t a problem, this build would not be so overly-represented in matches.

The Thief class receives the most criticism.
The complaints are all similar in nature.
The problematic build is extremely common.

You can question my credibility all you want but what you can’t do is refute any of the points I’ve made.

[Apologies to the OP for going off-topic.]

Your “points” are all opinion pieces. If I create thirty threads about how OP necros are, does that make them OP? If I play a build without condition removal, and get mauled by a necro, am I justified in claiming that necros are OP? Of course not. Similarly, I have done the analysis on dual S/D thieves multiple times, and in all honesty, I’ve made many posts explaining how to counter them (see “Why 3 spam is not good S/D” in the thief forum), and why the build is dreadful in theory. So what? Why should I believe that it is the build that is OP, and not that whomever is losing against it is a bad player?

That skill is outrageously stupid if not OP and there’s not much discussing it.

Wolfheart.1938:

That skill is outrageously stupid if not OP and there’s not much discussing it.

And nobody disagrees with you.

I don’t get if you are sarcastic or you agree with me in defining the skill “stupid”.

Wolfheart.1938:

I don’t get if you are sarcastic or you agree with me in defining the skill “stupid”.

No, seriously. But everybody thinks underwater combat in general is highly unbalanced. So when I see this thread, all I see is a reminder of what I and many others already know.

LOL i wonder how the OP would feel if he knew about rangers underwater xP

Arganthium.5638:

Your “points” are all opinion pieces. If I create thirty threads about how OP necros are, does that make them OP? If I play a build without condition removal, and get mauled by a necro, am I justified in claiming that necros are OP? Of course not. Similarly, I have done the analysis on dual S/D thieves multiple times, and in all honesty, I’ve made many posts explaining how to counter them (see “Why 3 spam is not good S/D” in the thief forum), and why the build is dreadful in theory. So what? Why should I believe that it is the build that is OP, and not that whomever is losing against it is a bad player?

Yes, these are my opinions, but they’re also the opinions of no doubt hundreds of others too. Opinions shared by a great number and broad spectrum of other people tend to be more accurate than those shared by a subdivision.

If you create thirty threads about how over-powered Necromancers are then no, that does not make them over-powered. But, if thirty different people do so, then yes, it would be justified to assume that Necromancers may indeed be over-powered.

As I have said, I play Warrior and Thief and I love them both. I’m far more experienced with the Warrior class, [1200hrs on Warrior, 400hrs on Thief] yet I still found it comparatively easy to be effective with the Thief, (playing both D/D and then S/D.) Is it simply the case that I’m a better Thief than I am a Warrior? I doubt that severely. If I can do well with relatively little experience (using only a handful of skills) then those who actually main a Thief, well… I’d say this is at the core of “Thief-hate.” Simply put, when I play my Warrior I have to fight really hard to be effective. I find this not to be true when I play on my Thief. If you’re a good player then you’re a good player. If not, well then that’s fine too as the game needs low-skilled players as much as it needs high-skilled players.

I have never said that the Thief is over-powered. I have said that they’re overly strong in comparison to certain other classes. To my knowledge, I’ve always been very precise about this point. Having said that, as much as those who face Thieves and lose badly cannot all be simply bad players, the same must go for Thieves themselves; they’re not all good players. The only sensible conclusion must be that yes, the class itself offers more room for error and/or more opportunity for success. Skill is so subjective (and random) that a wider approach must be taken in these discussions. To simply say, “oh, they were bad players” isn’t accurate or meaningful, really. It’s a strong class verging on a little too strong in certain areas, so for the good of the game as a whole I think it needs some careful nerfs applied.

I realise this post has become longer than I intended so I’ll finish by addressing your comments about theory; Theory is just that – theory. In practise however, much of it goes out the window. In theory Warriors should be pretty potent in PvP – Great build diversity, lots of crowd-control, amazing damage, mobility, etc. Why then are Warriors unarguably one of the worst classes in PvP? It’s because theorising means absolutely nothing without taking into consideration the theorising that can be done with every other class. (Then, on top of it all, factor in the endless variables relating to"player-skill.") You state that, by your own analysis, the S/D build is “dreadful in theory.” It may well be but that hasn’t stopped it being insanely popular, extremely effective, frustratingly difficult to play against and so to it being the target of so many complaints.

I don’t want Thieves smashed into the ground but I do want to see them, (especially this build,) toned-down a degree. As much as I do enjoy playing my Thief I more want to play a game that’s as balanced and fair as possible for everyone, whichever class they choose to play.