Guild Wars 2

Ever since I have read the post saying that HoT sales were slightly disappointing -> not enough free accounts bought the actual game. Anet stated that they are trying to figure out ways to make this conversion better and I have a feeling that Elite specializations are included in this process.
However, if Anet believes that they will make more money by making Elite specializations in every way better than Core specializations, they are wrong. You will get people to buy the expansion if you HOOK them into enjoying and playing the game. If a freebie sees that everyone that bought the game is playing a build that is cleary superior to his in every way, he gets frustrated and will NOT want to play the game -> he leaves and you don’t make any money. But if this free player enjoys the game enough and feels rewarded, he will BUY the expansion and continue buying items from gemstore -> you make money.
What do you guys think?

This is exactly why you don’t have a marketing degree.

1rst- HoT sales were not disappointing in away, had you watch the conference you would have known that NCSOFT was pretty please with the sales and their only contrition was the slow paced transition of f2p to b2p, which is your next point.

2nd-All elite specs core aren’t in anywyas oper than core specs. Futhermore, based on the conference again, NCsoft/Anet said they were going to speed up the process by teasing f2p players (I. E. Gliding in tyria, Gliding in spvp, and more). So obviously they won’t go about it by OPing specs because the chrono nerf and more Clearly tell a different story.

3rd- Finally on the sales, lol makes money with rp (I. E. Skins and stuff), Anet on the other hand can’t because you can convert gold to gems. Promoting the xpac is the only way (ok not the only way) for anet to make money. Implementing what you are asking would totally kill the game. And what makes you think that making HOT available to f2p would make the game more enjoyable to them?? Your subjectivity can be clearly seen as most f2p start with pve. And if anything they won’t to get rid of TP limitation.

Can you give me a graph? plz

Fivedawgs.4267:

This is exactly why you don’t have a marketing degree.

1rst- HoT sales were not disappointing in away, had you watch the conference you would have known that NCSOFT was pretty please with the sales and their only contrition was the slow paced transition of f2p to b2p, which is your next point.

2nd-All elite specs core aren’t in anywyas oper than core specs. Futhermore, based on the conference again, NCsoft/Anet said they were going to speed up the process by teasing f2p players (I. E. Gliding in tyria, Gliding in spvp, and more). So obviously they won’t go about it by OPing specs because the chrono nerf and more Clearly tell a different story.

3rd- Finally on the sales, lol makes money with rp (I. E. Skins and stuff), Anet on the other hand can’t because you can convert gold to gems. Promoting the xpac is the only way (ok not the only way) for anet to make money. Implementing what you are asking would totally kill the game. And what makes you think that making HOT available to f2p would make the game more enjoyable to them?? Your subjectivity can be clearly seen as most f2p start with pve. And if anything they won’t to get rid of TP limitation.

Have you seen q4 report?

Burtnik.5218:

Fivedawgs.4267:

This is exactly why you don’t have a marketing degree.

1rst- HoT sales were not disappointing in away, had you watch the conference you would have known that NCSOFT was pretty please with the sales and their only contrition was the slow paced transition of f2p to b2p, which is your next point.

2nd-All elite specs core aren’t in anywyas oper than core specs. Futhermore, based on the conference again, NCsoft/Anet said they were going to speed up the process by teasing f2p players (I. E. Gliding in tyria, Gliding in spvp, and more). So obviously they won’t go about it by OPing specs because the chrono nerf and more Clearly tell a different story.

3rd- Finally on the sales, lol makes money with rp (I. E. Skins and stuff), Anet on the other hand can’t because you can convert gold to gems. Promoting the xpac is the only way (ok not the only way) for anet to make money. Implementing what you are asking would totally kill the game. And what makes you think that making HOT available to f2p would make the game more enjoyable to them?? Your subjectivity can be clearly seen as most f2p start with pve. And if anything they won’t to get rid of TP limitation.

Have you seen q4 report?

I have but have you watched the conference? 5his thread might help you and make sure you watch the whole conference.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4593lv/q4_2015_report_reality_check/

OP’s point is correct. If ANet is intentionally keeping elite specs blatantly overpowered, it’s hurting HoT sales and gem sales more than helping.

@Fivedawgs.4267
1. How do you convert from a free account to a full account? Buy HoT. Lower than expected F2P conversion and lower than expected HoT sales are one in the same.
2. In PvP they are. And part of enticing people to buy HoT could be making HoT-content like elite specs a power boost.
3. ANet makes money on gem store purchases in aggregate. Not everyone converts gold to gems exclusively, and gems to gold conversion does happen.

What the OP was asking for is elite specs to be balanced with core specs – something ANet has stated since elite specs were first revealed. Not for elite specs to made part of F2P.

No the elite specs were better initially. This made the expac an necessity for established players. Once those sales were done, the elite specs were knocked down.

That’s a pretty cynical move in my opinion.

Exedore.6320:

OP’s point is correct. If ANet is intentionally keeping elite specs blatantly overpowered, it’s hurting HoT sales and gem sales more than helping.

@Fivedawgs.4267
1. How do you convert from a free account to a full account? Buy HoT. Lower than expected F2P conversion and lower than expected HoT sales are one in the same.
2. In PvP they are. And part of enticing people to buy HoT could be making HoT-content like elite specs a power boost.
3. ANet makes money on gem store purchases in aggregate. Not everyone converts gold to gems exclusively, and gems to gold conversion does happen.

What the OP was asking for is elite specs to be balanced with core specs – something ANet has stated since elite specs were first revealed. Not for elite specs to made part of F2P.

1- I can’t believe you actually narrowed down hot sales on f2p accounts?? What about b2p player who upgraded?? The NCSOFT employee at th3 conference said the sales weren’t weak ( that is the amount of b2p + f2p player who upgraded to HOT was invigorating but they still want more f2p to upgrade.

2- Nope they aren’t. I can tell you chronometer underperformed compared to core mesmers, and core engi is (slightly) that amount to HoT engi and the list goes on… check @ithlewell post.

3- ok you’re third point doesn’t even make sense. Idk what you are trying to get at, I clearly stated that Anet doesn’t make that much gold because you can convert gold to gems, a system which lol lacks.

Making elite specs OP surely increased sales, but it also showed the gameplay quality is not their top priority. Maybe they just wanted to collect extra money to spend in on e-sports afterwards, to further increase the quality. It could work, but seeing the amount of balancing mistakes and knee-jerk reactions done, it won’t.

Ithilwen.1529:

No the elite specs were better initially. This made the expac an necessity for established players. Once those sales were done, the elite specs were knocked down.

That’s a pretty cynical move in my opinion.

Basic MMO marketing strategy. It’d be like if car companies could take away features from your car after selling it to you for you to buy again. Car companies don’t have this luxury from obvious legal concerns, but software, especially video games, differ. If companies selling physical goods could get away with this, they would.

Thing is, Elite specs are all still way better than core. The only “balanced” one with core IMHO is power-built reaper, but the condi build is out of control. Otherwise, all of the specs are just blatantly superior to core by very noticeable margins.

Dagins.5163:

Making elite specs OP surely increased sales, but it also showed the gameplay quality is not their top priority. Maybe they just wanted to collect extra money to spend in on e-sports afterwards, to further increase the quality. It could work, but seeing the amount of balancing mistakes and knee-jerk reactions done, it won’t.

Well, are you actually speaking for Anet?? How do you know they don’t care about the gameplay quality?? I mean my games have gotten incredibly exciting since the patch. And that’s just my opinion.

Ithilwen.1529:

Ithilwen.1529:

No the elite specs were better initially. This made the expac an necessity for established players. Once those sales were done, the elite specs were knocked down.

That’s a pretty cynical move in my opinion.

Basic MMO marketing strategy. It’d be like if car companies could take away features from your car after selling it to you for you to buy again. Car companies don’t have this luxury from obvious legal concerns, but software, especially video games, differ. If companies selling physical goods could get away with this, they would.

Thing is, Elite specs are all still way better than core. The only “balanced” one with core IMHO is power-built reaper, but the condi build is out of control. Otherwise, all of the specs are just blatantly superior to core by very noticeable margins.

Don’t forget core mesmer that is condi mesmer. And to not confuse the crowd, I would change Elite specs are still better than core to Some elite specs are still better than core

I won’t forget. Condi Mesmer is just about the only thing we have left. It’s generally considered trash tier.

tbh Anet would make much bigger cash if they allowed players without HoT to use elite specs inside pvp as a sort of sneak peek at the HoT content and at the same time they wouldnt get their game its current reputation of pay2win

What I would like to see is a regular “Elite Spec Weekend” form ANET.

Every week From Friday to Monday you could try out a rotated elite spec for free. In PvP (unranked), Wvw (ANY map!) and Pve. All progression gained would stay as it is even if the next champ comes a week after. If a f2p player decides they can unlock an Elite Specialisation for 6 dollars.

I know it sounds complicated!

But I think the HoT should be able to get in small “chunks” if needed. I’m pretty much sure they would earn more money this way.

50 dollars for somebody trying out the game only for the PvP is a bit much (not for me, do not get me wrong I purchased 2 Ultimate Pre-Order). But six bucks is nothing.

After unlocking all the elite specs a f2p player gets full access to the HoT PvE content as well…

P,S,: The numbers can be tweaked…

My 2 c…

Fivedawgs.4267:

1- I can’t believe you actually narrowed down hot sales on f2p accounts?? What about b2p player who upgraded?? The NCSOFT employee at th3 conference said the sales weren’t weak ( that is the amount of b2p + f2p player who upgraded to HOT was invigorating but they still want more f2p to upgrade.

No matter how anyone spins it, it’s clear that NCSoft wants more HoT sales. The OP’s point still remains valid: PvP balance being a mess doesn’t encourage people to spend money on the game.

2- Nope they aren’t. I can tell you chronometer underperformed compared to core mesmers, and core engi is (slightly) that amount to HoT engi and the list goes on… check @ithlewell post.

That makes me laugh and question what game you’re playing. Yes, chronomancer was heavily nerfed, but many of the elite specs are still incredibly strong to the point where playing something that isn’t one of those elite specs puts you at a clear disadvantage.

• Scrapper is beyond broken. Way too much damage and sustain.
• Druid offers too much defense and CC in one package and the HoT pets carry the damage. Something has to give.
• Reaper chill damage is ridiculous (though otherwise Reaper isn’t too bad). It should never be that high for how much they apply it.
• Dragonhunter is overbuffed with poor mechanics, causing it to destroy mediocre players.
• Herald gives revenant numerous “get out of jail free” cards.

3- ok you’re third point doesn’t even make sense. Idk what you are trying to get at, I clearly stated that Anet doesn’t make that much gold because you can convert gold to gems, a system which lol lacks.

Not everyone uses only gold for the gem shop. Many players spend actual money for gems. NCSoft stated that they’re happy with the gem shop revenues, so I don’t see what your point is. Further, ANet stated that people who PvP regularly stick around longer and spend more on the gem shop.

Back to the OP’s original point: Awful balance, particularly from elite specs, does not encourage more sales either through boxes or the gem shop. If making or keeping elite specs so strong was driven by marketing, that decision was extremely short-sighted.

The only way you’ve argued against is to spin words on finance and claim that elite specs aren’t overpowered when it’s clear that the only competitive builds (by a wide margin) use elite specs.

I definitely know that their current decisions with the power creep and elite specs has prevented me from giving them any cash since Halloween (last time i buy anything until the state of the game improves)

Garbage balance, blatant power creep and lack of any meaningful content is not a great place to be…

The game is slowly developing “Star Wars Galaxies” syndrome, where they will keep making poor decisions until it is too late and decry “we should have listened to our playerbase”

Exedore.6320:

Fivedawgs.4267:

1- I can’t believe you actually narrowed down hot sales on f2p accounts?? What about b2p player who upgraded?? The NCSOFT employee at th3 conference said the sales weren’t weak ( that is the amount of b2p + f2p player who upgraded to HOT was invigorating but they still want more f2p to upgrade.

No matter how anyone spins it, it’s clear that NCSoft wants more HoT sales. The OP’s point still remains valid: PvP balance being a mess doesn’t encourage people to spend money on the game.

2- Nope they aren’t. I can tell you chronometer underperformed compared to core mesmers, and core engi is (slightly) that amount to HoT engi and the list goes on… check @ithlewell post.

That makes me laugh and question what game you’re playing. Yes, chronomancer was heavily nerfed, but many of the elite specs are still incredibly strong to the point where playing something that isn’t one of those elite specs puts you at a clear disadvantage.

• Scrapper is beyond broken. Way too much damage and sustain.
• Druid offers too much defense and CC in one package and the HoT pets carry the damage. Something has to give.
• Reaper chill damage is ridiculous (though otherwise Reaper isn’t too bad). It should never be that high for how much they apply it.
• Dragonhunter is overbuffed with poor mechanics, causing it to destroy mediocre players.
• Herald gives revenant numerous “get out of jail free” cards.

3- ok you’re third point doesn’t even make sense. Idk what you are trying to get at, I clearly stated that Anet doesn’t make that much gold because you can convert gold to gems, a system which lol lacks.

Not everyone uses only gold for the gem shop. Many players spend actual money for gems. NCSoft stated that they’re happy with the gem shop revenues, so I don’t see what your point is. Further, ANet stated that people who PvP regularly stick around longer and spend more on the gem shop.

Back to the OP’s original point: Awful balance, particularly from elite specs, does not encourage more sales either through boxes or the gem shop. If making or keeping elite specs so strong was driven by marketing, that decision was extremely short-sighted.

The only way you’ve argued against is to spin words on finance and claim that elite specs aren’t overpowered when it’s clear that the only competitive builds (by a wide margin) use elite specs.

1- Which company doesn’t want to increase their profit? ? Lol… And I wasn’t “spinning” words to prove my point. Again, NCSOFT is SASTISFIED with HoT sales, what they want is for f2p player to transition. (What is it that you don’t get). Nope the OP point is invalid, here I am going to delineate it for you so we don’t do this back and forth thing:

- Since you narrowed HoT sales on spvp; granted that pvp er wants to have cool outfit and … why would a pvp er spend his money on gems? All gear in pvp is not customizable. So why else would a pvp er spend his money on Those who spend money on gems are WvW er and pve er for the most part or pvp er who either wvw or pve. Someone who log on to gw2 to solely play SPVP HAS 0 INCENTIVE to spend his money.

-About the spvp balance being a mess. OK are we still talking about f2p or what?? I thought you couldn’t noticed how balance work until you were rank 50 or something. So, are you insinuating that f2p pvp player start by learning how “messy” the balance is than their own skills?? Interesting that was quite a reach.

-Now, let me tell what would make a f2p want to upgrade to HoT, having a limited access to the Tp,selling his gear at a 50% discount to a local merchant instead of making profit by selling it to the TP. Not being able to whisper, not being able to glide, only having access to 1 or 2 bag and 1 or 2 bank tabs, and so on. For your average f2p player spvp is NOT EVEN ON THEIR MIND.

2- Had you read the Op post you would have understood that the OP meant “All elites specs are OPER than core”; hence my “No they arent”. Idk how much time you have wasted on your second point but there is a difference between ALL and Some; so allow me to laugh at your reading incomprehension.

3-lastly, another case of reading incomprehension. My point is : because some players can convert their gold to gems; Anet revenues would still be low compared to Lol if both had the same player pool. Hence, they make most of their money with xpac, removing the incentive for f2p players to upgrade would totally hurt them financially. Whereas lol could (if they ever decided to release an xpac, and I know it’s moba but I am using it to make a point) , they could always rely on their money to rp to sustain them. And about NCSOFT being happy with gems to gold revenue, lol which company doesn’t want more profit?? And didn’t you just argued against that statement above?? Since NCSOFT stated they were happy with the sales?

Fivedawgs.4267:

- Since you narrowed HoT sales on spvp; granted that pvp er wants to have cool outfit and … why would a pvp er spend his money on gems? All gear in pvp is not customizable. So why else would a pvp er spend his money on Those who spend money on gems are WvW er and pve er for the most part or pvp er who either wvw or pve. Someone who log on to gw2 to solely play SPVP HAS 0 INCENTIVE to spend his

Since when is “All gear in pvp not customizable”? Any gear customization that can be bought from gem shop can be used in pvp.

On topic of balance/elite specs being relevant to people upgrading/not upgrading. I for one played the game for 2 days after HoT release then uninstalled it. Before that I’ve been playing on and off since beta, mostly pvp(~80%). Seeing state of game after expansion made me quit.

Uninstalling 2 days after an expansion was a foolish move. Even if balance of Revenant/elite specs were perfect, you would still be getting absolutely wrecked simply because you really don’t know what you are up against. 2 days is not enough time to draw balance conclusions, especially after a massive update.

Nutshel.7264:

Fivedawgs.4267:

- Since you narrowed HoT sales on spvp; granted that pvp er wants to have cool outfit and … why would a pvp er spend his money on gems? All gear in pvp is not customizable. So why else would a pvp er spend his money on Those who spend money on gems are WvW er and pve er for the most part or pvp er who either wvw or pve. Someone who log on to gw2 to solely play SPVP HAS 0 INCENTIVE to spend his

Since when is “All gear in pvp not customizable”? Any gear customization that can be bought from gem shop can be used in pvp. And also before that sentence, I clearly stated that beside skins there is not much a pvper can spend his money/gems on.

On topic of balance/elite specs being relevant to people upgrading/not upgrading. I for one played the game for 2 days after HoT release then uninstalled it. Before that I’ve been playing on and off since beta, mostly pvp(~80%). Seeing state of game after expansion made me quit.

Just to clarify by all gear being non customizable, I meant the stats are the same for every player so I doesn’t matter if you have a legendary weapon or ascended armor.

And are you planing on coming back? Former lol player here, I haven’t check their forum sincrease my departure; hence why I am asking .

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Uninstalling 2 days after an expansion was a foolish move. Even if balance of Revenant/elite specs were perfect, you would still be getting absolutely wrecked simply because you really don’t know what you are up against. 2 days is not enough time to draw balance conclusions, especially after a massive update.

I had reasons:
-balance history was awful pre expansion – hoped expansion would help but it only made it worse
-changes to my class made the only viable spec opposite to what I wanted to play and didn’t like the new elite game play either(played zerker ele for longest time, tempest is dull)
-was getting literally 2 shotted by everything and even if i managed to outplay them the damage was pathetic for zerker build and it took “forever” to kill anything
-making the game buy to win(not pay to win)was last straw, there is no way I’m going to support such business practice

Fivedawgs.4267:

Just to clarify by all gear being non customizable, I meant the stats are the same for every player so I doesn’t matter if you have a legendary weapon or ascended armor.

And are you planing on coming back? Former lol player here, I haven’t check their forum sincrease my departure; hence why I am asking .

Well then gem shop doesn’t have anything to do with it, now does it? You can’t buy actual gear from gem shop, only skins(as far as I know).

Im not sure what your second question is about. If you’re asking about gw then:

I do keep tabs on gw2 forums just in case anet gets new balance team or the only one somehow gets smart. That’s because GW2 pvp had really convenient format, match max 15 min easy to join, short time commitment made it ideal for me.

Else if you were asking abou LoL then I have never played that abomination.

Nutshel.7264:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Uninstalling 2 days after an expansion was a foolish move. Even if balance of Revenant/elite specs were perfect, you would still be getting absolutely wrecked simply because you really don’t know what you are up against. 2 days is not enough time to draw balance conclusions, especially after a massive update.

I had reasons:
-balance history was awful pre expansion – hoped expansion would help but it only made it worse
-changes to my class made the only viable spec opposite to what I wanted to play and didn’t like the new elite game play either(played zerker ele for longest time, tempest is dull)
-was getting literally 2 shotted by everything and even if i managed to outplay them the damage was pathetic for zerker build and it took “forever” to kill anything
-making the game buy to win(not pay to win)was last straw, there is no way I’m going to support such business practice

Fivedawgs.4267:

Just to clarify by all gear being non customizable, I meant the stats are the same for every player so I doesn’t matter if you have a legendary weapon or ascended armor.

And are you planing on coming back? Former lol player here, I haven’t check their forum sincrease my departure; hence why I am asking .

Well then gem shop doesn’t have anything to do with it, now does it? You can’t buy actual gear from gem shop, only skins(as far as I know).

Im not sure what your second question is about. If you’re asking about gw then:

I do keep tabs on gw2 forums just in case anet gets new balance team or the only one somehow gets smart. That’s because GW2 pvp had really convenient format, match max 15 min easy to join, short time commitment made it ideal for me.

Else if you were asking abou LoL then I have never played that abomination.

Wait… are you telling me you can’t convert gems to gold to buy legebdary weapon or ascended armor?? .. oh thought so

My Prediction!!
We will get legend Specs after 3 years, and then elite specs are shxt.

Fivedawgs.4267:

Wait… are you telling me you can’t convert gems to gold to buy legebdary weapon or ascended armor?? .. oh thought so

Sure you can, but it is doubtful that such practice is main reason anyone is using gem store, most anybody playing pve gets gear by doing well… pve and uses gem shop to get new “shiny looks”. Just as most exclusive pvp players(if there even are any left) use gem shop to buy new shiny looks.

Sure there will be odd apple or two with more money than sense that will blow hundreds of dolars/euro on gem→gold transitions just to buy full pve gear on TP, but there are(most likely) so few of them that they are not main source of income. It’s been common trend past few years showing that small transactions in big quantity are more profitable than few bigger sales.

What is this obsession with HoT being bad? Seriously. Despite all its faults, I have gotten my moneys worth when it comes to both HoT and GW2core.

Balance being terrible is a fact of life when it comes to Anet. If you expected anything else you were living in LaLa land. At least they are debugging like crazy now which is a major plus.

The things that HoT did right:

- elites are great gameplay vise even if they are a noticable power creep
- complicated new maps
- non cakewalk meta events
- raids
- seasonal leagues even if the meta was horrid in the first season

@Chokolata
HoT is very bad PvP-wise, and this is a PvP subforum. Balance was much better before it. In fact, now it reached its bottom since the game release. There were always some problems, but never so huge. To make it even worse, we can see no significant improvements – that is deleting power creep once for all, not gently ‘shaving’ it for eternity.

What we can see instead is painfully dumbing down the gameplay, to make it more accessible to beginners. It will work for increasing population of PvP, but it costs the game’s quality.

Nutshel.7264:

Fivedawgs.4267:

Wait… are you telling me you can’t convert gems to gold to buy legebdary weapon or ascended armor?? .. oh thought so

Sure you can, but it is doubtful that such practice is main reason anyone is using gem store, most anybody playing pve gets gear by doing well… pve and uses gem shop to get new “shiny looks”. Just as most exclusive pvp players(if there even are any left) use gem shop to buy new shiny looks.

Sure there will be odd apple or two with more money than sense that will blow hundreds of dolars/euro on gem->gold transitions just to buy full pve gear on TP, but there are(most likely) so few of them that they are not main source of income. It’s been common trend past few years showing that small transactions in big quantity are more profitable than few bigger sales.

Thanks for agreeing with me, check my original post above where I stated due to gold to gems conversion or vice versa; Anet make most of its money with xpac sales.

Chokolata.1870:

What is this obsession with HoT being bad? Seriously. Despite all its faults, I have gotten my moneys worth when it comes to both HoT and GW2core.

Balance being terrible is a fact of life when it comes to Anet. If you expected anything else you were living in LaLa land. At least they are debugging like crazy now which is a major plus.

The things that HoT did right:

- elites are great gameplay vise even if they are a noticable power creep
- complicated new maps
- non cakewalk meta events
- raids
- seasonal leagues even if the meta was horrid in the first season

This … I wouldn’t call it an obsession though, since most of the HoT complainer want a free xpac(Courtesy of Uncle Sam). Have you noticed they seldom asked for Anet to remove the elite specs, you know what?? Because they want them for FREE!!!! The specs aren’t poorly designed because they still rely on core; granted that some are Op but that doesn’t nullify the greatness of elite specs.

Dagins.5163:

@Chokolata
HoT is very bad PvP-wise, and this is a PvP subforum. Balance was much better before it. In fact, now it reached its bottom since the game release. There were always some problems, but never so huge. To make it even worse, we can see no significant improvements – that is deleting power creep once for all, not gently ‘shaving’ it for eternity.

What we can see instead is painfully dumbing down the gameplay, to make it more accessible to beginners. It will work for increasing population of PvP, but it costs the game’s quality.

What? Are you seriously saying that this balance is worse than the one shot meta or 4 ele one thief meta prior HoT Balance is subjective indeed!! I main warrior and I can tell you this is one of the best meta we have ever had. Why?? Build diversity, at least for warrior; we have about 4 viable build atm, and if that’s not balance then idk what this.

Fivedawgs.4267:

What? Are you seriously saying that this balance is worse than the one shot meta or 4 ele one thief meta prior HoT Balance is subjective indeed!! I main warrior and I can tell you this is one of the best meta we have ever had. Why?? Build diversity, at least for warrior; we have about 4 viable build atm, and if that’s not balance then idk what this.

4 ele, 1 thief meta? Ele was NERFED, no longer did that meta exist. Its survivability was still one of the best, the the burning nerf was a lot of damage taken from ele. Plus the might stack potential was nerfed with removal of might from cantrips. META =/= OVERALL BALANCE. After the ele nerf, the balance was extremely GOOD, you could run anything and be successful, even tho you weren’t in meta on paper. Now, the balance is much worse compared to pre-HoT balance, but much, much better than balance pre January 26 patch. Why? Overloaded abilities on certain elite specs. I can probably count all non-elite builds that are “viable” on fingers of one of my hands. Elite specs are balanced with each other, but not core builds. You can run no elite spec, but your effectiveness will be much worse than that of an elite spec. Also, we currently have no idea whats viable, since ranked hasn’t been up for 2 weeks now (anything is possible in unranked).

Give core specializations 4 trees instead of 3.

Game fixed.

…so you used to have to purchase core GW2, then ANet developed the expansion and said “hey, since we now have the expansion, let’s give the core game away for free!”

…And you are mad about this? Really? Is this the twilight zone? Of course the expansion has neat new stuff. It would be boring if it didn’t. And of course the elite trait line is stronger than the core… It’s called ELITE for a reason!

Archon.6480:

…so you used to have to purchase core GW2, then ANet developed the expansion and said “hey, since we now have the expansion, let’s give the core game away for free!”

…And you are mad about this? Really? Is this the twilight zone? Of course the expansion has neat new stuff. It would be boring if it didn’t. And of course the elite trait line is stronger than the core… It’s called ELITE for a reason!

I am afraid your words make so much sense that it’s going to hard for our average gw2 player to grasp.

zone.1073:

Give core specializations 4 trees instead of 3.

Game fixed.

Only a kittened company would do this.

As much as I have suggested cynical motives to parts of the expansion, I don’t think that applies to elite specs.

It’s just very difficult to add new dimensions to the gameplay in the form of new specs and classes and hit this margin where they don’t result in power creep while also not being so underpowered that people don’t want to play them. I’m hard pressed to think of an MMO that’s actually hit that margin.

WoW’s death knights greatly overshot it and they even publicly stated it was a mistake that they learned a lot from.

MadRabbit.3179:

As much as I have suggested cynical motives to parts of the expansion, I don’t think that applies to elite specs.

It’s just very difficult to add new dimensions to the gameplay in the form of new specs and classes and hit this margin where they don’t result in power creep while also not being so underpowered that people don’t want to play them. I’m hard pressed to think of an MMO that’s actually hit that margin.

WoW’s death knights greatly overshot it and they even publicly stated it was a mistake that they learned a lot from.

Hmm, one of the most constructive comments yet. Yeah I have heard about WoW’s Deathknights, heck I’ve seen videos. IMO problem is that Anet doesn’t seem that eager to fix problems with power creep, I mean if we at least we’re able to see their vision of each class. Now that I think of it, I can’t remember any MMO with a new profession introduced that wasn’t too strong.

Fivedawgs.4267:

This is exactly why you don’t have a marketing degree.

1rst- HoT sales were not disappointing in away, had you watch the conference you would have known that NCSOFT was pretty please with the sales and their only contrition was the slow paced transition of f2p to b2p, which is your next point.

Of course the sales were disappointing if you look at the actual figures and looked at what market expectations were. The discussion about f2p transition smelled of being something of a cover fir it.

Who is this thread for? Us to discuss? Surely you don’t think Anet is searching for market advice from someone doling out their priceless and all knowing expertise on their game forums…right?…right??

They can’t win with the elite specs model.

If Anet, as promised, created elite specs that were side-grades, that’d mean a lot of players would end up staying with core specs. Those players are going to be unhappy because they’d feel like they wasted their $50.

On the other hand, if Anet creates OP elite specs (which is what happened), everyone “gets their money’s worth” because everyone now plays a new build with new traits and skills. Of course, this makes those who didn’t buy the expansion very upset because they’re now underpowered. The problem is that this is a LOT of people, judging by HoT sales numbers (estimated to be only 300,000).

Either way, a lot of customers are going to be unhappy. Anet put themselves in a no-win situation and now everyone is suffering.

It’s too late now, but in the very beginning they should have gone the way of Magic: the Gathering…. periodically (perhaps yearly?) wipe the slate clean and introduce all new traits/skills. That way:

• The game always stays fresh.
• OP skills/traits are less of a disaster because at worst they’ll be wiped away during the next cycle.
• Your balance team gets a lot more experience balancing and (hopefully) improves from the experience.

The problem is there is minimal opportunity cost in taking the elite spec you only give up a single trait line and in return get access to more skills and a new weapon. For me to not want to take the elite spec the trait line would have to be a fair bit worse than the old lines to make it worth losing the extra skills and weapon. But in reality the idea that all 9 elites could be in perfect balance with the old trait lines and that nothing is better or worse is literally impossible.

For mine the elites going forward should be more niche (fullfill the different playstyle as was advertised) currently on my necro for example no matter if i am condi , power , minion whatever build i still will want to take reaper. I think druid was one of the better elites in this regard as it brought the ability to play almost as a dedicated healer which you would find in a trinity MMO. This brings a new play style to the table and if you want to stay damage focus you don’t take druid (however many still take druid but this is the direction things should have gone)

But really i have no idea how they should deal with elites or if anything needs to be done at all.

Well, point of the mater is that in most elite specs you give up something to gain something, or you cannot use the elite mechanic at the same time as playing normally.

For example:

- Guardian gains different virtues and not a forth one
- Reaper gets new shroud skills but still has 5 of them
- Druid gains a toolkit like form that heals but cant deal damage while in it and it is heavily gated
- Ele can overload, but it is channeled and it comes at a hefty price of puting your attunment on CD
- scrapper gains a minor utility boost up from the engi with the stomp bot but I really do not think its such a big deal design vise

On the other hand you have pure upgrades:
- Mesmer F5
- thief extra dodge
- Revenant extra F2
- Warrior extra F2

Mind you, I am not talking about balance but just about design choices. But then again, If their goal actually was to balance elites against eachother considering that there will be more to come, perhaps a small power creep is acceptable.

But ideally one would want to have Cores equalized with elites as to open up more build options.

I think having the Elite specs be at least a little better than core on average was a marketing necessity. I wish the gap wasn’t so huge, tho. There’s at least some room to narrow it without people getting too upset. A little more toning down the elite specs across the board is probably needed. But also, a simple step is to make the new class weapon accessible to core. It’d be a rare sight to see a core Ranger running around with a Staff, but I’m thinking core Guardians w/ a long bow or core Engis with a hammer would definitely be a thing.

Also it should be mentioned that i can’t think of an MMO that has catered to non expansion owners as much as HoT has i really feel that non expansion players should understand how rare it is to not have level cap increases new gear levels etc.

It in all likely hood would have been much easier to increase the level cap add in new skills whilst you level and increase trait length by one so you have 4, choices instead of 3. The implementation we got with elites and no cap increase is much more difficult to balance and would have been done with people who don’t want to upgrade in mind among others.

The game is by no means perfect and some aspects deserve constructive criticisms but i think its abit ridiculous to complain that you are getting screwed over as a non expansion owner.

foxcat.4096:

Also it should be mentioned that i can’t think of an MMO that has catered to non expansion owners as much as HoT has i really feel that non expansion players should understand how rare it is to not have level cap increases new gear levels etc.

It in all likely hood would have been much easier to increase the level cap add in new skills whilst you level and increase trait length by one so you have 4, choices instead of 3. The implementation we got with elites and no cap increase is much more difficult to balance and would have been done with people who don’t want to upgrade in mind among others.

The game is by no means perfect and some aspects deserve constructive criticisms but i think its abit ridiculous to complain that you are getting screwed over as a non expansion owner.

This… these folks don’t understand that warm bread is not given for free. So, we are literally beating on a dead horse.

foxcat.4096:

The game is by no means perfect and some aspects deserve constructive criticisms but i think its abit ridiculous to complain that you are getting screwed over as a non expansion owner.

Considering only around 300,000 copies of HoT were sold, it’d be really foolish for Anet not to cater even more to non-expansion owners.

Nutshel.7264:

Fivedawgs.4267:

Wait… are you telling me you can’t convert gems to gold to buy legebdary weapon or ascended armor?? .. oh thought so

Sure you can, but it is doubtful that such practice is main reason anyone is using gem store, most anybody playing pve gets gear by doing well… pve and uses gem shop to get new “shiny looks”. Just as most exclusive pvp players(if there even are any left) use gem shop to buy new shiny looks.

Sure there will be odd apple or two with more money than sense that will blow hundreds of dolars/euro on gem->gold transitions just to buy full pve gear on TP, but there are(most likely) so few of them that they are not main source of income. It’s been common trend past few years showing that small transactions in big quantity are more profitable than few bigger sales.

You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about. You seem to think that when someone buys gems with gold, they’re buying directly from Anet and just printing gems, but this is completely false. The gems you get from gold are coming from other players. The relative quantity of gold vs gems is what determines the exchange rate.

If nobody was buying gems and converting into gold, the gold→gems rate would be infinitely high. The opposite is true too: if nobody converted gold into gems, the gems→ gold rate would be infinitely high.

Ultimately, when someone buys something from the gem store, Anet profits exactly the same amount, no matter what. Those gems were at one point purchased from Anet, regardless of whether they went through a gems→ gold conversion or not.

Fay.2357:

Nutshel.7264:

Fivedawgs.4267:

Wait… are you telling me you can’t convert gems to gold to buy legebdary weapon or ascended armor?? .. oh thought so

Sure you can, but it is doubtful that such practice is main reason anyone is using gem store, most anybody playing pve gets gear by doing well… pve and uses gem shop to get new “shiny looks”. Just as most exclusive pvp players(if there even are any left) use gem shop to buy new shiny looks.

Sure there will be odd apple or two with more money than sense that will blow hundreds of dolars/euro on gem->gold transitions just to buy full pve gear on TP, but there are(most likely) so few of them that they are not main source of income. It’s been common trend past few years showing that small transactions in big quantity are more profitable than few bigger sales.

You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about. You seem to think that when someone buys gems with gold, they’re buying directly from Anet and just printing gems, but this is completely false. The gems you get from gold are coming from other players. The relative quantity of gold vs gems is what determines the exchange rate.

If nobody was buying gems and converting into gold, the gold->gems rate would be infinitely high. The opposite is true too: if nobody converted gold into gems, the gems-> gold rate would be infinitely high.

Ultimately, when someone buys something from the gem store, Anet profits exactly the same amount, no matter what. Those gems were at one point purchased from Anet, regardless of whether they went through a gems-> gold conversion or not.

Mind=blown

Lord Kuru.3685:

foxcat.4096:

The game is by no means perfect and some aspects deserve constructive criticisms but i think its abit ridiculous to complain that you are getting screwed over as a non expansion owner.

Considering only around 300,000 copies of HoT were sold, it’d be really foolish for Anet not to cater even more to non-expansion owners.

I would be saying the opposite the money is in the paying customers dunno why you would be catering for the non paying customers.

And if you can’t front up the 40 or so $ or don’t want too you probably don’t even like the game much anyway.

foxcat.4096:

Lord Kuru.3685:

foxcat.4096:

The game is by no means perfect and some aspects deserve constructive criticisms but i think its abit ridiculous to complain that you are getting screwed over as a non expansion owner.

Considering only around 300,000 copies of HoT were sold, it’d be really foolish for Anet not to cater even more to non-expansion owners.

I would be saying the opposite the money is in the paying customers dunno why you would be catering for the non paying customers.

And if you can’t front up the 40 or so $ or don’t want too you probably don’t even like the game much anyway.

1. At that number, there’s no way they can support their business. They need the money that core-only players put into the gemstore
2. At that number, what you would probably call “freeloading” players are even more important because without them, the paying population would be so small they wouldn’t have enough people to play with… they quit because of this and it’s all over.
3. Never heard of the word “value?” What if the next expansion is $1000. You’d obviously not pay for it. So you probably don’t even like the game anyway, right?

Well I think no one would buy HoT just for gliding, speaking in Itzel languange and… how much? Five new areas? Plot is extremely boring, PVE gameplay focuses on running and killing everything around. For me it’s not a big difference between slashing monsters in Maguuma or doing the same in Tyria.

It’s obvious that main advantages are new specializations and completly new revenant. Some people focus on dungeons (for now it’s just one raid in HoT), where it doesnt matter what class and how u play as long as you wear berserker gear. HoT shows it’s potential mainly on PVP and WVW, by providing new ways of gamestyle, powerful abilities. And most people focus on these two parts – so it’s completly reasonable to advertise their product in these dimensions. In my opinion that’s the only way to convince players, who didn’t make their decision yet. This game must earn money somehow Especially if it’s pay-once-and-play game

I bought the HoT expansion only to try new classes in PvP/WvW and went through Maguuma just to get hero points. HoT’s PvE content is… well… poor