Guild Wars 2

Instead of nerfing one of the most broken, RNG, passive builds of the game u skyrocket buff it to oblivion by making panic strike thief even able to gain ini, regen and GET LESS DAMAGE while stealthed.

With the leitmotiv shifting from capture points ( where panic strike thief is already OP) to kill the lord, Panic strike thief will become a totally OP joke unless specialization is even more OP.

Zero sense, really.

caps lock op. nerf pls.

If you thought Panic Strike was dumb before…just wait until guardians have it too!

Hooray for proc wars!!!

BlackBeard.2873:

If you thought Panic Strike was dumb before…just wait until guardians have it too!

Hooray for proc wars!!!

This. Now we have to predict guard f1 and dodge it. Either that or die.

Honestly, these are some massive overreactions. Procs like this are necessary to actually kill people. Also, most of the classes got buffs, so I don’t think it will be that bad. I’d be far more worried about unkillable builds.

Thief is insanely broken in the update and I wonder why Anet can’t see it.

Shadow Art is completely out of reach and grants god-mode now.
All good dps traits all merged into that Deadly Art line.
Acrobatic 30 CD auto negate CC and grant endurance.
All dps traits moved to gears, so thief can go full full denfensive while keeping all the damage. Not to mention that insane passive healing on stealth will make thief more likely to keep on 100% hp all the time when dueling, so they’d have 6 seconds resistance on a 10 seconds CD, so basically most condition classes are screwed.
Now we’ll see God-mode thief roaming around which no-one will be able to kill it, while they doing more damage than it used to be. Great job Anet.

zapv.8051:

Honestly, these are some massive overreactions. Procs like this are necessary to actually kill people. Also, most of the classes got buffs, so I don’t think it will be that bad. I’d be far more worried about unkillable builds.

….the thief is the class that has been forcing uber tank builds on professions since launch…that won’t change anytime soon apparently..actually it’ll become worst.

They even gave thief an uber vigor version and resistance boon to deal with condis ….-_-, the dodge spamm has not been removed…just lowered a bit, I’m praying that the dodge spamming will be made less viable…but my hopes are quickly fading

Just delete shadow rejuv. Problem solved. Nobody ever asked to be able to use that ez-mode trait while still being able to go trickery + dmg traits.

Panic strike thief is not OP right now compared to cele classes or even medi hammer guard.

But I agree that shadow arts after patch will make thief class a joke. Not because it will be OP but because it will be brain dead easy and every1 and their mom will reroll thief just like with shoutbows and cele engis / hammer guards right now.

They need to delete shadow rejuv and replace it by something else.

Toxsa.2701:

Shadow Art is completely out of reach and grants god-mode now.

http://static1.gamespot.com/uploads/original/1425/14251903/2764705-1361589542722.gif

I’m done today. I just can’t be here anymore

every class got new OP stuffs on the paper, but we still don’t know anything but traits. Stop whining!

Kolly.9872:

every class expect necros got new OP stuffs on the paper, but we still don’t know anything but traits. Stop whining!

Fixed that for you.

zapv.8051:

Kolly.9872:

every class expect necros got new OP stuffs on the paper, but we still don’t know anything but traits. Stop whining!

Fixed that for you.

I would like to add another “stop whining”, every class/presentation is in a better shape then necro or related.

Honestly the amount of tears about thieves before even seeing anything in action here is just glorious. It really reminds me of launch days, except people don’t actually have any experience / proof with these changes being imbalanced, so it really goes to show that people will cry about anything they think is OP, whether they actually know it or not, or even have the experience required to determine it being OP.

Still, the hate isn’t being directed at things I’m interested in as far as changes go, and it’s not panic strike, I probably won’t even use it anyway aside from just playing around with it and other traits. I’m pretty sure at some point I’m going to run across one of these noobers on the forums and they will gasp for air as they start drowning in their own tears when it’s used, kind of like in this thread. :>

It makes no sense that A.net labeled “on-clone-death” traits as “harmful to gameplay” in the Ready Up and then decided to buff permastealth/reset crutch traits.

A.net should just delete these traits and insert ones that don’t reward camping in stealth whenever you mess up.

An alternative solution would be to make shadow rejuv heal a fixed amount of health upon entering stealth, so SA thieves are encouraged to keep hopping in and out of stealth, which opens up counterplay.

ResJudicator.7916:

It makes no sense that A.net labeled “on-clone-death” traits as “harmful to gameplay” in the Ready Up and then decided to buff permastealth/reset crutch traits.

A.net should just delete these traits and insert ones that don’t reward camping in stealth whenever you mess up.

An alternative solution would be to make shadow rejuv heal a fixed amount of health upon entering stealth, so SA thieves are encouraged to keep hopping in and out of stealth, which opens up counterplay.

It’s actually opposite if they follow your proposition you will have thieves not giving a breathing period after assault and having more burst efficiency. Thief usually get the first hit and usually are bursty power or condi so revealed and stealth up time bonus are “lengthy” in design to control us. If I start an encounter put him to 70% take a hit staying in stealth longer for more recovery instead of instant heal so I can attack again gives him time to counter play. Also the fact that you have to chose between Cloaked in the Shadows and S.Rej. nerfed it, SA did become more of medic line. It also goes against the reveal mechanic.You’re lucky the forum doesn’t have a -1 option.

In a pvp perspective, the SA buffs are not going to be a problem at all (cause you know you posted in the pvp forum so you should be thinking about pvp). If a thief takes SA he is going to screw his team over because he won’t be able to cap points effectively as he will constantly be losing caps he’s trying to defend because he’s trying to spam stealth. Only place these changes will actually have any effect on is wvw roaming (in which case this will have a large effect) but that’s for a different forum section.

Nothing to see here, just people complaining about things they don’t understand.

Ario.8964:

In a pvp perspective, the SA buffs are not going to be a problem at all (cause you know you posted in the pvp forum so you should be thinking about pvp). If a thief takes SA he is going to screw his team over because he won’t be able to cap points effectively as he will constantly be losing caps he’s trying to defend because he’s trying to spam stealth. Only place these changes will actually have any effect on is wvw roaming (in which case this will have a large effect) but that’s for a different forum section.

Nothing to see here, just people complaining about things they don’t understand.

You might have heard about this new pvp game-mode called stronghold that doesn’t revolve around capture points, and where hiding in stealth has no draw-backs whatsoever.

A lot of people will move towards this game-mode because it is more dynamic, watchable, and interesting than conquest.

Also, the reason SA isn’t taken now is because its necessary to go into crit strikes or deadly arts to do a lot of damage (due to how stats are tied to a trait line). Thieves can build as bursty as ever because all the +damage modifiers and best traits were moved to deadly arts, and shadow arts is being BUFFED so that they gain either more control or invincibility. Most thieves would rather get out of every jail forever and get to reset every time they “lose” because its MUCH faster than dying and waiting to respawn.

BlackBeard.2873:

Ario.8964:

In a pvp perspective, the SA buffs are not going to be a problem at all (cause you know you posted in the pvp forum so you should be thinking about pvp). If a thief takes SA he is going to screw his team over because he won’t be able to cap points effectively as he will constantly be losing caps he’s trying to defend because he’s trying to spam stealth. Only place these changes will actually have any effect on is wvw roaming (in which case this will have a large effect) but that’s for a different forum section.

Nothing to see here, just people complaining about things they don’t understand.

You might have heard about this new pvp game-mode called stronhold that doesn’t revolve around capture points, and where hiding in stealth has no draw-backs whatsoever.

A lot of people will move towards this game-mode because it is more dynamic, watchable, and interesting than conquest.

It’s more about NPC’s it was shown that caltrops spam(evades) was quite decent in the defensive line I expect traps to have the same effect,in the offensive lane quick damage(zerker) than retreat is quite decent those specs work better/faster without SA, the line is not anywhere near broken in SH.

You might have forgotten that stealth camping does NOTHING to help a team in ANY scenario. Stealth campers will not do enough consistent damage to be worth worrying about due to the fact that they can’t do damage in stealth and because they are losing out on other lines that provide better damage potential or roaming potential. They will continue to be useless and SA can be outplayed easily by someone who knows what they’re doing. I.E. chain cc with burst and it’s bye bye thief. Counters haven’t really changed much. The goal will still be to force that thief out of the fight first. Any channeled skill will be able to do that fairly well.

Edit: SH will also be put in the same queues as conquest so it’s not like people have a choice to only play that game mode. Unless people really feel like changing a spec every time they enter a match most people will not use it anyways. There’s nothing to worry about. SA won’t be the cancer you assume it will be.

Ario.8964:

In a pvp perspective, the SA buffs are not going to be a problem at all (cause you know you posted in the pvp forum so you should be thinking about pvp). If a thief takes SA he is going to screw his team over because he won’t be able to cap points effectively as he will constantly be losing caps he’s trying to defend because he’s trying to spam stealth. Only place these changes will actually have any effect on is wvw roaming (in which case this will have a large effect) but that’s for a different forum section.

Nothing to see here, just people complaining about things they don’t understand.

Current panic strike thief is 6-0-2-0-6.

Panic strike thief is one of the strongest meta builds currently.

After HoT, current meta build will have more ini, more regen, less damage while stealthed, more damage ( executioner).

Sir, you’ve no idea what you’re talking about.

Mrbig.8019:

Ario.8964:

In a pvp perspective, the SA buffs are not going to be a problem at all (cause you know you posted in the pvp forum so you should be thinking about pvp). If a thief takes SA he is going to screw his team over because he won’t be able to cap points effectively as he will constantly be losing caps he’s trying to defend because he’s trying to spam stealth. Only place these changes will actually have any effect on is wvw roaming (in which case this will have a large effect) but that’s for a different forum section.

Nothing to see here, just people complaining about things they don’t understand.

Current panic strike thief is 6-0-2-0-6.

Panic strike thief is one of the strongest meta builds currently.

After HoT, current meta build will have more ini, more regen, less damage while stealthed, more damage ( executioner).

Sir, you’ve no idea what you’re talking about.

And every other classes and specs are staying the same except necro.

Sagat, you completely misread what I wrote, and in doing so ended up supporting my own point. I wrote that A.net should change shadow rejuv to discourage stealth camping.

And you replied by saying that my suggestion will have the “opposite” effect because, as you eloquently put it, my change will cause thieves to be more aggressive instead of camping stealth:

Sagat.3285:

It’s actually opposite if they follow your proposition you will have thieves not giving a breathing period after assault and having more burst efficiency. Thief usually get the first hit and usually are bursty power or condi so revealed and stealth up time bonus are “lengthy” in design to control us. If I start an encounter put him to 70% take a hit staying in stealth longer for more recovery instead of instant heal so I can attack again gives him time to counter play. … You’re lucky the forum doesn’t have a -1 option.

Re-read the above posts carefully. Your example supports what I wrote. You’re literally arguing against yourself.

Also, if the thief has the upper hand after his opening burst, he’s not going to camp stealth no matter what happens to Shadow Rejuv. If you’re camping stealth when you already have the upper hand, then you’re playing thief wrong. So in any event, your basic assumptions about thief gameplay are off.

Mrbig.8019:

Ario.8964:

In a pvp perspective, the SA buffs are not going to be a problem at all (cause you know you posted in the pvp forum so you should be thinking about pvp). If a thief takes SA he is going to screw his team over because he won’t be able to cap points effectively as he will constantly be losing caps he’s trying to defend because he’s trying to spam stealth. Only place these changes will actually have any effect on is wvw roaming (in which case this will have a large effect) but that’s for a different forum section.

Nothing to see here, just people complaining about things they don’t understand.

Current panic strike thief is 6-0-2-0-6.

Panic strike thief is one of the strongest meta builds currently.

After HoT, current meta build will have more ini, more regen, less damage while stealthed, more damage ( executioner).

Sir, you’ve no idea what you’re talking about.

This. Too many bad thief players defending SA right now, who don’t even know how thieves work and haven’t understood the HOT changes.

The buffs to SA are a straight-up buff to the meta panic strike build. You don’t have to give anything up for the bonus traits. It’s completely illogical to say that buffing a top-tier meta Conquest build is going to make it worse at Conquest.

The weakness with panic strike thief was that it was a mechanically skill-intensive build with little room for error. The HOT changes reduce these downsides by giving panic strike a huge survivability buff.

But the main issue is just that shadow rejuv is a terrible trait that promotes terrible gameplay. I’m OK with giving steal a stealth + blast finisher from the newly merged SA master trait, and having improvisation potentially recharge your heal skill now that all heal skills have a category. But shadow rejuv is just crazy dumb. At least change it to heal-on-stealth, so that it rewards thieves who are good at slipping in and out of stealth, rather than thieves who just camp stealth whenever things go downhill.

ArenaNet will balance it out, don’t worry.

Geez people, why you rush so much? Three years and problem will be gone.

ResJudicator.7916:

Sagat, you completely misread what I wrote, and in doing so ended up supporting my own point. I wrote that A.net should change shadow rejuv to discourage stealth camping.

And you replied by saying that my suggestion will have the “opposite” effect because it will cause thieves to be more aggressive instead of camping stealth:

Sagat.3285:

It’s actually opposite if they follow your proposition you will have thieves not giving a breathing period after assault and having more burst efficiency. Thief usually get the first hit and usually are bursty power or condi so revealed and stealth up time bonus are “lengthy” in design to control us. If I start an encounter put him to 70% take a hit staying in stealth longer for more recovery instead of instant heal so I can attack again gives him time to counter play. … You’re lucky the forum doesn’t have a -1 option.

Re-read the above posts carefully. Your example supports what I wrote. You’re literally arguing against yourself.

Also, if the thief has the upper hand after his opening burst, he’s not going to camp stealth no matter what happens to Shadow Rejuv. If you’re camping stealth when you already have the upper hand, then you’re playing thief wrong. So in any event, your basic assumptions about thief gameplay are off.

Mrbig.8019:

Ario.8964:

In a pvp perspective, the SA buffs are not going to be a problem at all (cause you know you posted in the pvp forum so you should be thinking about pvp). If a thief takes SA he is going to screw his team over because he won’t be able to cap points effectively as he will constantly be losing caps he’s trying to defend because he’s trying to spam stealth. Only place these changes will actually have any effect on is wvw roaming (in which case this will have a large effect) but that’s for a different forum section.

Nothing to see here, just people complaining about things they don’t understand.

Current panic strike thief is 6-0-2-0-6.

Panic strike thief is one of the strongest meta builds currently.

After HoT, current meta build will have more ini, more regen, less damage while stealthed, more damage ( executioner).

Sir, you’ve no idea what you’re talking about.

This. Too many bad thief players defending SA right now, who don’t even know how thieves work and haven’t understood the HOT changes.

The buffs to SA are a straight-up buff to the meta panic strike build. You don’t have to give anything up for the bonus traits. It’s completely illogical to say that buffing a top-tier meta Conquest build is going to make it worse at Conquest.

The weakness with panic strike thief was that it was a mechanically skill-intensive build with little room for error. The HOT changes reduce these downsides and give panic strike a huge survivability buff.

Revealed still exists there is a certain amount of camping you will have to do ,SA just trades something else for a recovery while stealthed. I will keep reminding it’s power creep for everyone, SA got nerfed, PS thief didn’t really get buffed they got more options if something got buffed it would be steal,traps and condition thief overall. We’ll see how it rolls in a team environment on paper =/= on action. We don’t have to whine at least not yet.

As much as I’m afraid of the new changes to thief as the next guy, we don’t entirely know exactly what will be happening in the final build and how these changes will synergize with other classes and their new toys.

@MrBig, I can understand why you would assume that it is a straight up buff to panic strike and it is in a manner of speaking. Only issue with it is the fact that it will encourage stealth camping to get the most out of the spec. Anyone who actually plays the thief in pvp would realize that is one of the single most useless things you can do in a match as it allows the other team to freely decap or full cap points as well as apply a great deal of pressure to your team while you can’t do a thing about it without losing stealth. Panic strike is powerful right now because it doesn’t invest fully into the SA line and therefore only gains condi removal without having to deal with increased stealth time when you can’t reveal yourself (i.e engi or guard blocking on a point while decapping it) and because it doesn’t rely on stealth to be effective it works well. If people run SA they will be limiting themselves in pvp and will be a hinderance to their team when they could just take other damage traits from crit strikes or defensive traits outside of stealth via acrobatics in order to do the job they are supposed to be doing more effectively. Maybe a few soloq trolls and some hotjoin heros will use SA but outside of that I truly doubt it’ll be much of an issue. People who think SA thieves will begin to dominate pvp have no idea how the SA line influences thief gameplay and therefore, make incorrect assumptions about how it will impact the game. Panic strike d/p only uses the 2 in SA for the condi removal you can get with minimal investment. Because the upcoming changes will allow for other condi removal traits and other defensive traits to be used due to more trait points being available it is highly likely that panic strike will switch to using those alternatives in pvp and reserve SA for wvw roaming builds as the alternatives will allow people to have the defenses they need without losing caps or relying on stealth for their defensive abilities.

There’s a creative comment, saying someone is bad for actually arguing something that makes sense. It depends on your perspective. I play d/p26006, no need for SA so maybe you shouldn’t assume that someone plays SA next time you want to make a comment hmm?

Jesiah.2457:

Honestly the amount of tears about thieves before even seeing anything in action here is just glorious. It really reminds me of launch days, except people don’t actually have any experience / proof with these changes being imbalanced, so it really goes to show that people will cry about anything they think is OP, whether they actually know it or not, or even have the experience required to determine it being OP.

Still, the hate isn’t being directed at things I’m interested in as far as changes go, and it’s not panic strike, I probably won’t even use it anyway aside from just playing around with it and other traits. I’m pretty sure at some point I’m going to run across one of these noobers on the forums and they will gasp for air as they start drowning in their own tears when it’s used, kind of like in this thread. :>

Except thief is proven to be the most OP class in PVP and WvW at launch, and ended up getting nerfed for at least 3 times. However Anet is very slow on doing their balance, that’s why we have to act fast and gives feedback BEFORE THEY EVEN LAUNCH THE UPDATE. Currently any sane person can see that under the new system, Shadow Art will be insanely broken in WvW and maybe Stronghold.

Ario.8964:

You might have forgotten that stealth camping does NOTHING to help a team in ANY scenario. Stealth campers will not do enough consistent damage to be worth worrying about due to the fact that they can’t do damage in stealth and because they are losing out on other lines that provide better damage potential or roaming potential. They will continue to be useless and SA can be outplayed easily by someone who knows what they’re doing. I.E. chain cc with burst and it’s bye bye thief. Counters haven’t really changed much. The goal will still be to force that thief out of the fight first. Any channeled skill will be able to do that fairly well.

Edit: SH will also be put in the same queues as conquest so it’s not like people have a choice to only play that game mode. Unless people really feel like changing a spec every time they enter a match most people will not use it anyways. There’s nothing to worry about. SA won’t be the cancer you assume it will be.

You probably should know that thief can easily grant stealth to the whole party, so in Stronghold, the whole party will get that God-Mode invisible. Not to mention you can use it on Door Breaker too. It’s like you have a garunteed survivng door breaker thanks to how good the Shadow Art after the patch. (-50% Damage, Condition cleanse, Regen, 350hp/sec)

I remember when they tried to nerf panic strike by lowering the duration and the cd. Basically this was a huge buff as it procs more often and a 2s immob is as good as a 50s immob because if you do nothing in 2s to remove it you die anyway. Anet have a fundamental lack of understanding that changing durations on condis as a nerf is pointless and does nothing. Like their attempt to nerf poison from thieves shortbow. Total fail.

This game is so skillless. Just get 2 people to stealth up with perma stealth and spike people out of nowhere. That has been the lameness of gw2 for 6 months and there is zero room for any counter play. And its easy to do, i have seen very mediocre players do steslth spikes as its like 3 buttons and a load of passive procs

Lordrosicky.5813:

I remember when they tried to nerf panic strike by lowering the duration and the cd. Basically this was a huge buff as it procs more often and a 2s immob is as good as a 50s immob because if you do nothing in 2s to remove it you die anyway. Anet have a fundamental lack of understanding that changing durations on condis as a nerf is pointless and does nothing. Like their attempt to nerf poison from thieves shortbow. Total fail.

This game is so skillless. Just get 2 people to stealth up with perma stealth and spike people out of nowhere. That has been the lameness of gw2 for 6 months and there is zero room for any counter play. And its easy to do, i have seen very mediocre players do steslth spikes as its like 3 buttons and a load of passive procs

Not to mention thief is getting resistance on a 10 cd base, auto breakstun on a 30 cd base, and 450 hp/sec in stealth, more initiative gain, -50% damage, condition cleanse while in stealth. Also, all good dps traits are merged into Deadly Art, so thief can be super offensive by just picking one trait line, while able to pick up both defensive trait lines and be invincible at the same time.

Way to balance your game Anet!

Toxsa.2701:

and 450 hp/sec in stealth

Okay this right here is the kind of sad lack of actual understanding of another class that people have when they come to the forums crying about as loud as they can hoping to be heard and get something nerfed probably because they suck and can’t fathom someone’s actually better than them so they’re obviously just OP as hell. Honestly, you have yet to face off against these changes with your own changes that are coming and … ugh, please.

If anything, get your information right before spouting out horribly inaccurate numbers, please. A burst thief, as you are probably accusing as this horribly atrocious and imbalanced class, is not going to come anywhere near 450 hp / sec, and that’s only while in stealth, mmm’kay? (Clocks in at 323 hp/sec btw! Only 127 hp / sec off, but that’s “close enough” I guess)

As it stands, a warrior healing signet, from a zerker amulet warrior no less, has more passive healing that is always on compared to a thief using a celestial amulet with the +300 healing you gain from going into Shadowy Arts that is only active while in @#$%‘ing stealth, which doesn’t even break into 400, but sits at 367 per second. But hey, nothing against that warrior signet, no? Doesn’t bother you? Just teef ’cause it can stealth, otherwise it would be the squishiest class in the game ? No ? Hmm :l

My point is, Shadow Arts has been the most mocked, made fun of, and laughed at trait line for thieves, period. Not just because people want to throw QQ insults that it’s “cheesy”. But also because it’s bad in conquest and it’s not meta, and you sacrifice so much damage trying to use it, just to name some things I’ve often heard.

And hey, about that sacrificing damage part, since everyone here seems to be so horribly upset about how SA got a -50% damage buff while in stealth. Well, kiddos, this may be true, but did you even consider what was given up for that? Oh that’s right, a damage buff! The kind that not only hurts burst thieves, but also condition thieves as well, which is actually the thing you should really be thankful for, because as it is now thieves easily get 6-10 stacks of might just from stealthing / healing up in stealth alone, and that might not seem like a lot, but it really does add up.

But hey, let’s completely forsake the fact that Shadow Arts is giving up the only damage buff it previously had in turn for something turning it into a purely defensive traitline that is only applicable in stealth anyway. This is not always on damage reduction traitS kind of like what elementalists are getting, either. So there’s that.

Maybe if Shadow Arts had the might stacking mechanic added in with the damage reduction mechanic, I would understand all the current kitten and crying over it. But as far as I know it is not and people are misguiding their understandable dismay about Deadly Arts and pushing it onto Shadow Arts as if it’s some kind of horrible culprit to Panic Strike being such a powerful build.

That right there is honestly both as ridiculous as it is stupid. Be upset with Deadly Arts, that’s fine, understandable even! Shadow Arts though? Really? Acro or Critical strikes is most likely going to be given up in place of Shadow Arts which is not only going to net a flat 10% damage loss from passive traits, but some other traits that will allow thief to either do even more burst damage or more sustained damage, where as Shadow Arts provides none of that in place of stealthed tankiness and some team support. :l

Please, people. Don’t drag an already weak trait line into this, it is not the culprit. Deadly Arts is. I won’t disagree that it seems over the top, but kitten … get your numbers straight and don’t drag something almost unrelated to what the actual problem is into it as if it’s going to magically fix the problem. This is the kind of QQ that ruins this game, not makes it any better. -_-

Jesiah.2457:

Toxsa.2701:

and 450 hp/sec in stealth

Okay this right here is the kind of sad lack of actual understanding of another class that people have when they come to the forums crying about as loud as they can hoping to be heard and get something nerfed probably because they suck and can’t fathom someone’s actually better than them so they’re obviously just OP as hell. Honestly, you have yet to face off against these changes with your own changes that are coming and … ugh, please.

If anything, get your information right before spouting out horribly inaccurate numbers, please. A burst thief, as you are probably accusing as this horribly atrocious and imbalanced class, is not going to come anywhere near 450 hp / sec, and that’s only while in stealth, mmm’kay? (Clocks in at 323 hp/sec btw! Only 127 hp / sec off, but that’s “close enough” I guess)

As it stands, a warrior healing signet, from a zerker amulet warrior no less, has more passive healing that is always on compared to a thief using a celestial amulet with the +300 healing you gain from going into Shadowy Arts that is only active while in @#$%‘ing stealth, which doesn’t even break into 400, but sits at 367 per second. But hey, nothing against that warrior signet, no? Doesn’t bother you? Just teef ’cause it can stealth, otherwise it would be the squishiest class in the game ? No ? Hmm :l

My point is, Shadow Arts has been the most mocked, made fun of, and laughed at trait line for thieves, period. Not just because people want to throw QQ insults that it’s “cheesy”. But also because it’s bad in conquest and it’s not meta, and you sacrifice so much damage trying to use it, just to name some things I’ve often heard.

And hey, about that sacrificing damage part, since everyone here seems to be so horribly upset about how SA got a -50% damage buff while in stealth. Well, kiddos, this may be true, but did you even consider what was given up for that? Oh that’s right, a damage buff! The kind that not only hurts burst thieves, but also condition thieves as well, which is actually the thing you should really be thankful for, because as it is now thieves easily get 6-10 stacks of might just from stealthing / healing up in stealth alone, and that might not seem like a lot, but it really does add up.

But hey, let’s completely forsake the fact that Shadow Arts is giving up the only damage buff it previously had in turn for something turning it into a purely defensive traitline that is only applicable in stealth anyway. This is not always on damage reduction traitS kind of like what elementalists are getting, either. So there’s that.

Maybe if Shadow Arts had the might stacking mechanic added in with the damage reduction mechanic, I would understand all the current kitten and crying over it. But as far as I know it is not and people are misguiding their understandable dismay about Deadly Arts and pushing it onto Shadow Arts as if it’s some kind of horrible culprit to Panic Strike being such a powerful build.

That right there is honestly both as ridiculous as it is stupid. Be upset with Deadly Arts, that’s fine, understandable even! Shadow Arts though? Really? Acro or Critical strikes is most likely going to be given up in place of Shadow Arts which is not only going to net a flat 10% damage loss from passive traits, but some other traits that will allow thief to either do even more burst damage or more sustained damage, where as Shadow Arts provides none of that in place of stealthed tankiness and some team support. :l

Please, people. Don’t drag an already weak trait line into this, it is not the culprit. Deadly Arts is. I won’t disagree that it seems over the top, but kitten … get your numbers straight and don’t drag something almost unrelated to what the actual problem is into it as if it’s going to magically fix the problem. This is the kind of QQ that ruins this game, not makes it any better. -_-

zzzz Did you even read the new changes that now you get 10 seconds regen from just entering stealth? People lack of knowledge is just stunning. (Oh, before you ask, it’s a master trait, so it goes along with Shadow Rejuvication! 450 hp/sec confirmed)

Also Warrior can’t go into stealth without another classes help. It’s not like we lose target when warrior pops their healing lol.

Also there’re WvW and the future Stronghold out there for you to abuse stealth, so there’s no legitimate reason to defend the new Shadow Art because of conquest.

Yeah yeah, I know you thieves want your OP build went live, I get it. Stop making excuse or distortion that the new change would not be OP. Moving on.

Panic Strike wasn’t used before it’s current state buffing was a right choice,DA no longer has condition duration,Cloaked in the Shadows was move to GM,Infusion is no more,RoS replaced might on stealth. What if the thief take his time to steath allies if he speced for it ? The power creep for everyone is intented. This thread is exaggerating let’s see how it rolls vs others.

@Resjudicator I do not use random solo encounters in WvW as an example to balance thief, I will use team/squad fights in either PvP or WVW with meta builds or not,the regen is fine there due to pressure,the damage is mostly single target, and again every class got a power creep.

let me tell you a story from an ex thief player. when gw2 was released i picked a thief as my main class with double daggers. i played WvW back then and not PvP because of random reasons.

i played a d/d berserk/valk/soldier build with 200% crit damage and 30% crit chance or so with mug, shadow rev and the 100% crit in stealth trait.

it wasn’t a full berserk build so my backstabs hit for 4-6k, that’s the amount that d/p panic strike thieves hit now.
so without executioner, panic strike (which sucked back then), sleight of hand and double basilisk venom i won 99% of my 1v1s. i won most of my 1v2s, many 1v3s and i even managed to win a 1v6. ofc WvW players are often mechanically not as good as the higher level pvp players.

you don’t have to camp stealth if you play with SA, you play normally, you go in stealth and you trigger the regen and hp/s the same way as you trigger your condi cleanse right now. it’s for free, you’re not giving up anything for it.
if you indeed get low you go in stealth and disengage, nothing changes.

and where are you taking the “other classes are op now too” from?
necro – no buff
engi – thief is not intended to kill engi in a 1v1
ele – thief not intended to kill a d/d in a 1v1
warrior – thief not intended to kill a shoutbow in a 1v1
mesmer – dies to thief anyway
guardian – will die to thief now because of the additional sustain from sa
ranger – thief won’t kill condi rangers. power rangers is hard to tell, idk how their changes will change the playstyle.

basically what will suffer from these changes are the berserk classes, making other things than thief less viable and destroying dps diversity even more.

Toxsa.2701:

zzzz Did you even read the new changes that now you get 10 seconds regen from just entering stealth? People lack of knowledge is just stunning. (Oh, before you ask, it’s a master trait, so it goes along with Shadow Rejuvication! 450 hp/sec confirmed)

Are you serious? Lol … I love how you are now adding a boon effect from another separate trait that’s already in game into Shadow Rejuvination’s calculation to correct yourself while trying to make Shadow Rejuvination sound miraculously OP. So I guess now based on that logic, even though Shadow Rejuvination by itself does not grant regeneration, the fact you could have that boon on prior to stealth makes Shadow Rejuvination, as well as Shadow Arts, OP!

404, Logic not found.

Regeneration does not mean anything towards Shadow Rejuvination being OP by itself nor does it support anything you’re saying. By your logic here, a thief could simply ignore said master trait granting regeneration on stealth (which let me state again, is already in the game) and gain regeneration from any other source, and because of that, Shadow Rejuvination has 450+ hp / sec in stealth confirmed omg op let’s cry on the forums!

Toxsa.2701:

Yeah yeah, I know you thieves want your OP build went live, I get it. Stop making excuse or distortion that the new change would not be OP. Moving on.

Apparently you didn’t take any time at all in reading what I said or you would have noticed that I actually did state that Deadly Arts is over the top as in a bit too powerful and that maybe I actually agree with that? My point was Shadow Arts is not overpowered and now you’re just an idiot scrounging for anything you can to cry about concerning Deadly Arts. And while I get that, your method is ill informed and illogical, which is pretty much what I’ve already been saying all along.

Last of all, you overly concerned tryhard. I don’t play burst and so you really have no idea what it is I have ideas for and I’m pretty sure if I ever faced off with you, you would cry OP from how undeniably hard you would be crushed.

Because as it is from how you sound here on the forums, you sound like the kind of player who is easily defeated while fighting untraited against. It’s as if you’re one who probably relies on a class / build that carries you further than your skill ever could, so when you lose, that thing which beat you is automatically overpowered and must be nerfed! :l

’Nuff said.

Lordrosicky.5813:

I remember when they tried to nerf panic strike by lowering the duration and the cd. Basically this was a huge buff as it procs more often and a 2s immob is as good as a 50s immob because if you do nothing in 2s to remove it you die anyway. Anet have a fundamental lack of understanding that changing durations on condis as a nerf is pointless and does nothing. Like their attempt to nerf poison from thieves shortbow. Total fail.

This game is so skillless. Just get 2 people to stealth up with perma stealth and spike people out of nowhere. That has been the lameness of gw2 for 6 months and there is zero room for any counter play. And its easy to do, i have seen very mediocre players do steslth spikes as its like 3 buttons and a load of passive procs

#esports

evilapprentice.6379:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPqYpcteqac

’Nuff said.

I am disturbed by how little they know about thieves.

Toxsa.2701:

Lordrosicky.5813:

I remember when they tried to nerf panic strike by lowering the duration and the cd. Basically this was a huge buff as it procs more often and a 2s immob is as good as a 50s immob because if you do nothing in 2s to remove it you die anyway. Anet have a fundamental lack of understanding that changing durations on condis as a nerf is pointless and does nothing. Like their attempt to nerf poison from thieves shortbow. Total fail.

This game is so skillless. Just get 2 people to stealth up with perma stealth and spike people out of nowhere. That has been the lameness of gw2 for 6 months and there is zero room for any counter play. And its easy to do, i have seen very mediocre players do steslth spikes as its like 3 buttons and a load of passive procs

Not to mention thief is getting resistance on a 10 cd base, auto breakstun on a 30 cd base, and 450 hp/sec in stealth, more initiative gain, -50% damage, condition cleanse while in stealth. Also, all good dps traits are merged into Deadly Art, so thief can be super offensive by just picking one trait line, while able to pick up both defensive trait lines and be invincible at the same time.

Way to balance your game Anet!

And its already the most OP class and the most hated class because it has zero counterplay.

Apparently though, thief doesnt need counter play but warrior/necro/rangers must have a ton of counter play lol.

So stupid. The problem is the expectation is set from release. Thieves expect to be OP as kitten. If you made them balanced (would need huge nerfs) then I think thieves would qq alot even though they could still work well in pvp.

Imagine a player who is a 7/10.

This player plays thief so his MMR is a 9/10 – higher than his skill warrents.

This player is used to playing at this MMR and so thinks he is a 9/10 (even though he isn’t).

If thief becomes balanced then his MMR will take time to adjust to a 7/10 in which time he will think thief is underpowered when in reality he just sucks.

Jekkt.6045:

let me tell you a story from an ex thief player. when gw2 was released i picked a thief as my main class with double daggers. i played WvW back then and not PvP because of random reasons.

i played a d/d berserk/valk/soldier build with 200% crit damage and 30% crit chance or so with mug, shadow rev and the 100% crit in stealth trait.

it wasn’t a full berserk build so my backstabs hit for 4-6k, that’s the amount that d/p panic strike thieves hit now.
so without executioner, panic strike (which sucked back then), sleight of hand and double basilisk venom i won 99% of my 1v1s. i won most of my 1v2s, many 1v3s and i even managed to win a 1v6. ofc WvW players are often mechanically not as good as the higher level pvp players.

you don’t have to camp stealth if you play with SA, you play normally, you go in stealth and you trigger the regen and hp/s the same way as you trigger your condi cleanse right now. it’s for free, you’re not giving up anything for it.
if you indeed get low you go in stealth and disengage, nothing changes.

and where are you taking the “other classes are op now too” from?
necro – no buff
engi – thief is not intended to kill engi in a 1v1
ele – thief not intended to kill a d/d in a 1v1
warrior – thief not intended to kill a shoutbow in a 1v1
mesmer – dies to thief anyway
guardian – will die to thief now because of the additional sustain from sa
ranger – thief won’t kill condi rangers. power rangers is hard to tell, idk how their changes will change the playstyle.

basically what will suffer from these changes are the berserk classes, making other things than thief less viable and destroying dps diversity even more.

So what you are saying is in the grand scheme of things these changes change nothing for thieves vs meta

Thanks

Let me add onto the fact that there is a lot of misinformation in this thread being spouted by the “OMG the sky is falling” thief hating brigade.

1st Shadow Rejuv base is 293 hps a sec while in stealth. To get Rejuv on stealth is a separate trait entirely for a base of 130 hps/sec. This gives a total of 423 hp/sec in stealth. Every other class in the game basically has better healing.

2nd DA line has gotten significantly stronger…Yes but you have to make choices. Yes does Panic Strike + Executioner + Mug look good in 1 line…omg yes. Problem remains though is you have to look at the WHOLE picture. Does PS/Exe/Mug look great vs a d/d cele ele after new changes? Shoutbow warrior? Cele Engi? Ranger? Do you get my point? There is a REASON they have done this, and its not to OP thieves.

3rd Please understand that a single thief is not going to be able to use Hard to Catch, Swindler’s Equilibrium, and Guarded Intentions at the same time. Stop spouting this. Also the acro line has been significantly nerfed now that Feline Grace was neutered. Let it go.

Thieves are far from being OP and these changes when weighed against everything else proposed will remain so. We also haven’t seen what the new lines will be so its time to wait and see.

ps. I loved the comment from the Dev that said “Those complaining about thieves obviously don’t play thief”

why should a thief be able to kill classes with builds that were designed to stay alive to keep points and support allies?

thief is the most op berserk class, pushing almost all of the other berserk builds out of the meta. even without any buffs to thief it would still be the same as it is now, and still they decided to buff thief, imagine that.

if all, thief should have been nerfed.
cooldowns on teleports skills that use initiative, nerf to panic strike.

T raw.4658:

1st Shadow Rejuv base is 293 hps a sec while in stealth. To get Rejuv on stealth is a separate trait entirely for a base of 130 hps/sec. This gives a total of 423 hp/sec in stealth. Every other class in the game basically has better healing.

You forgot that SR is in ADDITION to the thief’s regular heal. Withdraw = ~290hps. Add in SR and you have ~583hps. That’s way better than Healing Signet. If you have only 50% stealth uptime, then cut SR in half so you have ~437hps total. That’s still better than Healing Signet.

I’m not sure why the idea of camping stealth to regain all your health is so important to some thief players. Obviously not every thief relies on this crutch, since many of the people speaking out against shadow rejuv are top thieves…

If it’s just about adding in some extra healing during a normal fight, then make Shadow Rejuv heal a fixed amount each time you enter stealth.

Sagat.3285:

@Resjudicator I do not use random solo encounters in WvW as an example to balance thief, I will use team/squad fights in either PvP or WVW with meta builds or not,the regen is fine there due to pressure,the damage is mostly single target, and again every class got a power creep.

I think you’re responding to the wrong person. I was very obviously talking about the meta panic strike build in conquest. In fact, I’m pretty sure I stated “meta panic strike” and “in conquest” in my earlier post. Maybe you meant to reply to Lordrosicky or Jekkt?

It’s easier to just use the quote function. Also helps to read what people are writing before shooting off another wildly irrelevant response like you did last time.

Jekkt.6045:

why should a thief be able to kill classes with builds that were designed to stay alive to keep points and support allies?

thief is the most op berserk class, pushing almost all of the other berserk builds out of the meta. even without any buffs to thief it would still be the same as it is now, and still they decided to buff thief, imagine that.

if all, thief should have been nerfed.
cooldowns on teleports skills that use initiative, nerf to panic strike.

So where’s the build for thieves that bunkers points and support allies?

There isn’t one so thieves are pigeonholed into zerker builds only. Thats all they got b/c even at 3k armor and 20k hps a thief is still VERY squishy.

Besides the reason thieves are the best zerker class for Conquest isn’t why you think. It’s because of the mobility and being able to +1 fights. In legit 1v1 duels there are many builds that completely destroy zerker thieves.

So this “thieves pushed all other zerker classes out of the meta” line is actually a farce. Conquest pushed em out not thieves.

then tell me which amazing berserk build other than medi guard is able to reliably kill a thief.

there are support builds on thief, wether they’re good or not is a different question.
not every class has a support build, or have you ever seen a support mesmer?

the reason why thief is the strongest zerker is because of:

its active defence, be it stealth or evades
its ability to disengage and to reset a fight
the numerous gapclosers that make a thief unkiteable
the ability to interrupt through stability

no other berserk build is able to do all these things at the same time. there is not a single reason to not take a thief with the current balance.

T raw.4658:

Those complaining about thieves obviously don’t play thief"

This, maybe with an addition of not knowing what to do when a thief Shadow Refuges.

Here’s a new thing:
Instead of arguing with people who are against shadow’s rejuv, let’s try something different and ask them what they would change on the “OP teef with god mode”.

If you think thief is unbalanced please give your ideas for ways to change thief to balance it so we can work off of that rather than just people arguing “op” or “not op”.

I know ResJudicator mentioned a straight heal when entering stealth, I’d be all for it tbh, but lets see what else you guys think of.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

T raw.4658:

Those complaining about thieves obviously don’t play thief"

This, maybe with an addition of not knowing what to do when a thief Shadow Refuges.

Surprise surprise. after the patch thief has an auto stunbreak on a 30 sec cd if they choose Acro.
There’s 0 chance of dpsing them to death while they’re in SR now thanks to -50% damage, cleanse, ~600 hp per sec (SR healing included), auto prevent CC. You can also pop your heal skill if you know how to cancel the animation of backtrack rolling.

Ario.8964:

Here’s a new thing:
Instead of arguing with people who are against shadow’s rejuv, let’s try something different and ask them what they would change on the “OP teef with god mode”.

If you think thief is unbalanced please give your ideas for ways to change thief to balance it so we can work off of that rather than just people arguing “op” or “not op”.

you’re healed for a portion of the damage you recieve in stealth.

So no passive healing other than the regen boon but then the rejuv trait offsetting the damage taken via healing? I could get on board with that, as long as the initiative regen trait stays because now that’s the thief’s only way to regen initiative quicker outside of the signet. Other than that I really like that idea.