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Posted by: Dirtyrascal.1023

Dirtyrascal.1023

Regardless of whether you personally are having a smooth ride through Amber or not, it is clear that there are a LOT of people having a bad time.

People want to FEEL like they are progressing at a pace which is FAIR given their own PERSONAL performance.

^^^THIS in the context of a TEAM game where the performance of 4 other players will DIRECTLY effect YOUR MMR.

Maths vs Feelings:

Matchmaking is exactly this:
1. Your team is made up of available people close to your MMR
2. Your opponents are made up of people who share similar MMR that could vary wildly from yours but who have a similar RANK to you +/- 7pips so a 15 pip range.
3. Your MMR will increase and decrease with losses and wins
4. These changes in YOUR MMR will be reflected in the MMR of people allocated to your team in subsequent games.

Now where the maths falls over is that, what it is attempting to do is adjust an INDIVIDUAL PERSON’s MMR on the basis of the performance of a 5 PERSON TEAM.

This absolutely cannot be accurate for people who solo queue.

It is arguable that it’s accuracy will improve over time, however this is not a science experiment it is a game – and being subjected to it’s inaccuracies is quite clearly not fun for a LOT of people.

The algorithm can only judge the performance of the team.
The player wants to be judged by their own performance.

Or put it another way:
It’s never fun to play well and then lose.
It’s really un-fun to play well, lose and get penalised: i.e. reduction in MMR and potentially being bracketed with even lower MMR team mates.

Have your cake and eat it:

1. You cannot balance all the classes and specs.
2. As a team game it is balanced – in the sense that any class/spec/team comp is open to anyone, equally.
3. If ONLY 5 man premades were allowed to play ranked then this system would be fair and there would be far fewer people actually playing – it would possibly just die out.
4. They have to allow non premade’s to participate because that is the majority of the Ranked player base.

So how do you have a TEAM BASED Esport League that fairly rewards INDIVIDUALS and accurately reflects their SKILL LEVEL.

The answer is – you can’t.

The season 1 system – was better for Solo Queue people – It FELT good and rewarding because games were evenly matched. However Rank progression was also an indication of TIME spent playing as well as actual SKILL LEVEL.

Season 2 – is better for TEAMS – because your progress will absolutely be effected by the performance of the other players on your team. As such people who solo queue more casually, who are good players but don’t have a high MMR are going to have a rough time.

The system needs to not upset the hard core players because without them there is no Pro-League and no Esports.
The system needs to not upset the more casual players because without them there is no INTEREST in Pro-League or it’s Esport.

Suggestions:

1. If a player’s MMR is unkown (new player etc.) then start them with Zero MMR so they are not potentially sabotaging an average MMR player’s game. Also they will not need to suffer repeated losses in order to find a competitive level and as such are more likely to continue playing, rather than quit out of frustration.

2. If a player’s MMR is known then automatically put them into their correct division at the beginning of the season – or one below, leaving Legendary empty and to play for. This way they are not grinding through Amber in teams full of high MMR players, artificially lowering the MMR of good players on much over-all weaker teams.

3. Players of Competitive games like Statistics.
Have LEAGUE TABLES within the divisions. People should be able to see where their TEAM sits and also should be able to see where they PERSONALLY sit within their division.

4. Managing Expectations.
If Anet is open and vocal about how this system works and it’s implications for people who play the game differently e.g. Solo Que players, Pre-made players, then some of the stigma attached to Ranks will go away and people won’t have to put up with the bad feeling of carry around an e.g. Amber gem above their heads because they solo queue. Anet need to be more vocal about the fact that this system is only accurate on a team level.

The current system cannot accurately indicate and reward your personal skill level when it is only measured in the context of a team’s performance. Ranked is a TEAM game that NEEDS non-premade players to make up the numbers.

An individual’s MMR is not a direct indication of that player’s SKILL LEVEL it is an indication of that player’s SUCCESS, and as in life these are not necessarily directly proportional.

(edited by Dirtyrascal.1023)

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Posted by: Ruru.1302

Ruru.1302

All they really have to do to fix this is add placement matches for new players, and should’ve seeded legendary players into Sapphire.

mag
[Mada] Apocryfia

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Posted by: vulneraria.4865

vulneraria.4865

I agree, i only don’t understand why having season 1 system is not working?
season 1 have only 1 problem the reward was +3 +2 +1 for win and +1 0 -1 -2 -3 for lose.
so if you play a lot of matches you probably gain pips in the end.
remove that and no one can grind it anymore.

sUk Clan

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Posted by: Kuya.6495

Kuya.6495

People want to FEEL like they are progressing at a pace which is FAIR given their own PERSONAL performance.

But what if your performance is kitten?

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Posted by: brannigan.9831

brannigan.9831

People want to FEEL like they are progressing at a pace which is FAIR given their own PERSONAL performance.

But what if your performance is kitten?

Exactly even though he is being placed with teammates roughly his skill level its there fault he is losing.

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Posted by: Dirtyrascal.1023

Dirtyrascal.1023

People want to FEEL like they are progressing at a pace which is FAIR given their own PERSONAL performance.

But what if your performance is kitten?

Well this is the conflict of interests: Maths vs Feelings.
If you want a pure meritocracy then you need to have rules that necessarily put everyone on an equal playing field, i.e. only allow 5 man premades into ranked.
If you want to be all inclusive, there HAS to be compromises.
Which compromises are made will determine how happy your player base is.
A lot of people are unhappy at the moment.
Arguably it is better to reward a few players who don’t deserve it than it is to penalise players who don’t deserve it.

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Posted by: Teutos.8620

Teutos.8620

I have posted this in another thread already:

What is every other (major) game doing:
1.) Let players play with and against players of about the same MMR.
2.) Distribute the reward (the amount of pips you gain and loose) depending on your MMR. <- that’s the reason, why better player would not remain in amber.

Let’s take average Bob as an example: He has a MMR of 1.000.
Now, ArenaNet say: with a MMR of 1.000 you deserve to reach Ruby.

  • Till Bob reaches actually Ruby, he will gains 3 pip per win and still only looses 1 pip. (The whole time, he will fight with and against other players with about the same MMR. Therefore, his match quality will be much better than ours.)
  • Now Bob has finally reached Ruby, now he gains 1 pip per win and still looses 1 pip.
  • Bob finally get’s really lucky, he manages to have a win streak on Ruby. He reaches Ruby Tier 4, but he still hasn’t gotten any better (still MMR of 1.000). He will still gain 1 pip per win, but he will loose 3 pips.
    (Other games are not using 5 pips per tier, but e.g. 100 league points, therefore it is easier to grade how many points they get per win and how many points they loose.)

Why can’t Arenanet not copy from other games? I don’t know.

EU – Multiple times #1 SoloQ pre Dec 2014 (pure MMR based ladder)
Primoridal (S1) & Exalted (S2) & Illustrious (S3) Legend

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Posted by: Corp Por.1567

Corp Por.1567

All they really have to do to fix this is add placement matches for new players, and should’ve seeded legendary players into Sapphire.

Exactly this. I’m just an average player, but I don’t deserve to get placed with Someone who is on their first ranked game ever….

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Posted by: Masha Mk.7014

Masha Mk.7014

To me this matches are not balanced properly at all!

How come in all solo que team u can one one side get mixed classes and on another 3-4 same classes??

How is that fair??

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Posted by: The Ace.9105

The Ace.9105

To me this matches are not balanced properly at all!

How come in all solo que team u can one one side get mixed classes and on another 3-4 same classes??

How is that fair??

It’s ranked. It’s not supposed to be balanced until you reach your division which might also be the amber division. People in gw2 are just too familiar with easy rewards and progress.

(edited by The Ace.9105)

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Posted by: JTGuevara.9018

JTGuevara.9018

All they really have to do to fix this is add placement matches for new players, and should’ve seeded legendary players into Sapphire.

YEEEEESS. Exactly.

Amber, Emerald and Sapphire should be where beginners go. Ruby, Diamond, Legendary should be for the veterans. Lastly, ESL players should have THEIR pro ESL league for themeselves.

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Posted by: WereDragon.6083

WereDragon.6083

I thought matchings were paired primarily through pips and not MMR

What do we say to the god of death? Not Today….
Eleshod|80 Thief|Tarnished Coast
Malsavias|80 Necromancer| Tarnished Coast

(edited by WereDragon.6083)

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Posted by: Wolfric.9380

Wolfric.9380

Great post and explanation. I also already said the solutions that will ease the pain especially 1+2 would have prohibited the extreamly rough start.