Guild Wars 2

Guys, I don’t think there are OP classes/tactics in this game. I will grant that some are stronger than others and harder to counter, but they ARE counter-able. There is a counter-build to every build. I remember how in the beginning of starcraft, all you needed to do was cheese to win, until people discovered how to counter it. In League of Legends, it was pick Akali or another equally OP hero and own face. In WoW a good rogue could take on multiple opponents naked .

So what happened in those games, balance wise?

1. Counters emerged. They exist, they do exist. Phantasm spamming mesmers can be countered. So can heartseeker / pistol whip / lotus death blossom spamming thieves. Of course, when you choose to get a build that counters them, that opens up people of other professions to counter you. That, my friends, is the rock-paper-scissors nature of a good, well balanced team game.

2. Balance happened gradually . No developer can watch a video of a thief taking on multiple opponents at once and declare “This is Op. Let’s nerf it.” Seriously. There are multiple factors. Do they all have builds that are countered by his build? Does his skill far surpass their skill? Is this a thing that is happening constantly to all players, or mostly to un-skilled players? If we nerf this, how will it affect WvWvW, or PvE? It’s not time yet to desperately start pressing the panic nerf button. Expect it to take time for balance to kick in, because…

3. Rushed nerfs/buffs cause MORE imbalance. If you want a balanced game, be patient. If they start making changes before carefully tweaking those changes in a controlled testing environment, you’d bet there will be an ever increasing list of imbalances in one of the three game modes.

LoL players, think of all the champions that will completely decimate a noob, but are considered un-viable in high level team play. That’s because with a new champion every month or so, and constant changes to balance, a lot of champions get left in the dust by all the champions that just do all the same things better, or more safely.

WoW players, think of how long it took for rogues to stop being OP. Then it was Warlocks. Then it was Paladins. Then Hunters. If a game is balanced well, every profession should feel like they are OP, until they get beat, then they cry about the other profession being OP.

High level Starcraft players, does a cannon rush, or a 6 pool, still feel OP to you? I see a lot of Starcraft players adapting to a “Safe” Opener that can stop a cheese (if you scout properly) and transition into a play-style that is typically balanced around timing pushes, map control, and generally mid-game play.

I invite you to discuss these thoughts.

Of course everything is counterable, but once you compare difficulty of a build, to the difficulty of the counter-build, you start to see glaring issues.

Let’s take Pistol Whip thieves since you already used them. PW stuns, and does excellent damage. They get locked into place during the animation, so dodging is a viable option – until you consider the stun. So, how do we counter this? Bring a stun-break! Oh, wait, they can use PW 3-4 times in a row. Get caught in one when the break is on CD, eat them all. Ok, so take stability! Most stability abilities last only a few seconds. A thief can dodge a few times, pop stealth, then PW spam again. Little effort on his part, but you’re required to use up multiple u-skills, having them off CD, and have to play well in order to counter it. The effort to counter it far outweighs the effort the Thief puts in for the most part. Sure, once you catch him without stealth, and you have stability, he’s probably dead, but that requires a specific set of circumstances as opposed to a specific counter-build or strategy.

Animosity.5231:

Of course everything is counterable, but once you compare difficulty of a build, to the difficulty of the counter-build, you start to see glaring issues.

Let’s take Pistol Whip thieves since you already used them. PW stuns, and does excellent damage. They get locked into place during the animation, so dodging is a viable option – until you consider the stun. So, how do we counter this? Bring a stun-break! Oh, wait, they can use PW 3-4 times in a row. Get caught in one when the break is on CD, eat them all. Ok, so take stability! Most stability abilities last only a few seconds. A thief can dodge a few times, pop stealth, then PW spam again. Little effort on his part, but you’re required to use up multiple u-skills, having them off CD, and have to play well in order to counter it. The effort to counter it far outweighs the effort the Thief puts in for the most part. Sure, once you catch him without stealth, and you have stability, he’s probably dead, but that requires a specific set of circumstances as opposed to a specific counter-build or strategy.

Yup, that’s the definition of a face-roll. My intended message was that the game is relatively well balanced for such a new game. I too feel like playing a thief is way too easy, as I do play a point-defense lotus death blossom spam thief who is so hard to burst/kill, but so easy to play. That is what my other points were about, that in time I am sure ArenaNet will resolve these issues. Especially if they want the big E-Sports money.

I have more ways to avoid pistol whip on my mesmer than the thief has initiative to spam it. No prob.

Oh hey you pistol whip? Let me drop blind well. Or let me drop smoke bomb, or let me fear you, or let me moa you.

Tons of EASY counters.

Oh you’re a warrior? Pop dolyak, use HB, laugh at squishy thief.
Oh you’re a mesmer? Pop stealth, spam phantasms or conditions
Oh you’re another thief? Reroll cause useless
Necro’s as i said above, blind well
Engi, as i said above smoke bomb into area stealth while placing lots of conditions
Guardians should laugh at thief dmg at this point.

Don’t play rangers so don’t know counter for that, but i’m sure there is one.

anyway just my 2 cents

Blind well? It works if the other person is blind and never heard of dodge. Thx for trying tho. And before you say dagger immobilize…. stun break/steal/teleports/leaps and a million of other ways to make all your wells nothing more then a 5 seconds worth of floor nuisance.

Hey that’s great when you’re sitting there typing about it… come do it to my necro in game, by all means. I have yet to find a thief worthy of giving more than the 10 seconds it takes to kill him.

Put up or gtfo. The only thief that has ever gotten me down is Haterade. And I’m totaly ok with that as he’s from IG and a professional player. (He also doesn’t run HS or PW)

Animosity.5231:

Let’s take Pistol Whip thieves since you already used them. PW stuns, and does excellent damage. They get locked into place during the animation, so dodging is a viable option – until you consider the stun. So, how do we counter this? Bring a stun-break! Oh, wait, they can use PW 3-4 times in a row. Get caught in one when the break is on CD, eat them all. Ok, so take stability! Most stability abilities last only a few seconds. A thief can dodge a few times, pop stealth, then PW spam again. Little effort on his part, but you’re required to use up multiple u-skills, having them off CD, and have to play well in order to counter it. The effort to counter it far outweighs the effort the Thief puts in for the most part. Sure, once you catch him without stealth, and you have stability, he’s probably dead, but that requires a specific set of circumstances as opposed to a specific counter-build or strategy.

One of the best ways to counter an ability is to understand how it works – PW’s stun lasts 1/2 second. That’s long enough for 2 of the 4 swings to hit you. Once that stun wears off, you can dodge roll (or even just walk, depending on positioning) out of the last 2 swings. If you’re getting stun-locked by non-hasted PW’s, you’re doing something wrong.

Also note that PW is a 5 initiative skill – if a thief is spamming PW 3-4 in a row, they’re running high base init/high init regen build and blowing their entire init pool / all their regen tricks to do something like that. Initiative regens at 1 per 1.67s (base, not including talents), so they’re going to be sitting ducks for a while after that.

One of the best ways to counter an ability is to understand how it works – PW’s stun lasts 1/2 second. That’s long enough for 2 of the 4 swings to hit you.

This is why the build runs quickness, so that it last long enough for you to chain the hits.

I think the point is not what you can do to counter it, but that you shouldn’t have an ability that’s so easy to use and does so much damage with a stun attached to boot. If the game is supposed to be about skill, then make the Thief put forth as much effort as his opponent to win. It’s like Hundred Blades or Guardian GS Spin move – sure you can just walk/dodge out of them if you’re not CCed and paying attention and you won’t get hit, but nothing should do that much damage to start with. The penalty of you not dodging that one move is a lot harsher than him missing you with it. He’s not dead and has other skills he can use on you, but you’re either dead or almost dead and all he had to do was CC and then use one skill whereas to get him down that far in HP, you would have had to do a lot more. Not a fair trade.

There are clear differences in some player power at times, that’s why threads like this exist, because people notice them. Don’t think that anyone’s simple explanation is justification to as why something Is or Is not too powerful. This is still fairly a new game and anything that is completely “gamebreaking” Will be addressed I’m sure. The fact is there are many dynamics and spectrum’s to the game. Your opinion or " fact " is merely your perspective, but your ability to express it certainly your right.

Malakree.5912:

One of the best ways to counter an ability is to understand how it works – PW’s stun lasts 1/2 second. That’s long enough for 2 of the 4 swings to hit you.

This is why the build runs quickness, so that it last long enough for you to chain the hits.

Then run a stunbreak and laugh – the thief just lost all his endurance for nothing.

Let me try my hand at prognostication here, your response is going to be “But my stunbreak can’t always be up!”.

If your stunbreak is down, its for 1 of 2 reasons –
1) You just used it in a fight, to avoid a Frenzy→Hundred blades, or Haste→Pistol whip, or something similar. If this is the case, well, thems the breaks – you fought 2 players in a short time span, they -should- have the advantage.
2) You wasted your stunbreak on a CC that inconvenienced you, but wasn’t threatening your life, because you just -HAD- to get back into the fight or something. In this case, you will learn to play in time – save your stunbreaks for when you -really- need them.

I’ve seen minimal imbalance and the game is certainly not dying day by day. Please don’t start with this doomsday crap when the game is still new.

Minor class imbalances are nothing to scream about in a new game.
Find a counter – abuse it. Not hard.

I (A Warrior) had numerous encounters with a guardian through multiple battle grounds. He repeatedly killed me at first until I found a build/strategy and then it switched. He died a lot.