Guild Wars 2

Yeah, conditions so overpowered

Meanwhile check out my thread where everyone is clamoring to defend the fact that might stacking hambow is an intelligent and balanced playstyle. LOL

Because we all know that the best cheese builds come from the tournaments…

Necro is in realy bad spot , teams are bearly using necros becouse he dont fit to the current game mode , u need mobile , sustain/dps profesions witch necro lack .

What happened to Team Lonely? Did Necitor decide to just not play Necro despite 2-0ing their opponents yesterday with him on Necro?

I always thought conditions are useless against coordinated teams and king against pugs…
Seems i wasnt wrong, was i?

And by the way condi necros have now worse condi damage then pre dhuumfire patch…

I wouldn’t be that hard with conditions.

The problem is not that condis are not good, it’s just the fact that most of the teams run a lot of bunkers / defensive set ups.
This means that there’s a new space for condi specs in a team and in addition, the opposing (euqually tanky) team will have a lot of condi remove and stuff.

If you have 4 bunkers / almost bunkers in your team and expect the same for the enemy team, a thief which brings some burst/stealth rezzes/decaps might be more usefull than a necro.

Condis still are strong, but not as strong as a team full of bunkers.

Condis are only so long a counter to bunkers, as you bring more condis than your enemy is able to cleansen.
But this would mean, you might have to bring ~2 condi builds. But having to bring 2 condi builds either forces you to not bring a roamer like a thief, or to sacrifice one of your bunkers.
Hell, you might even have to bring one warrior less! o.o

Yea, I see how not unconventional it is.

The setup you describe would mean:
1 engi
1 necro
so, again, only 3 places left for bunkers and no thief, or just 2 bunkers and no thief.

Oh, and as a Mesmer player, plz tell me about my ridiculous amount of condi cleansening

Oh, and I’d like to mention the also pretty excessive use of burst specs, you can see when watching the NA matches. Maybe Burst also needs a buff?

But if it’s great comp, condis don’t need a buff?

Ok, my fault, didn’t read it properly enough.

But still, we also don’t see many burst specs.
And, where are my extra condi cleansens on my Mesmer?

Wouldn’t the boon strip from a necro be pretty good against the might stacking warriors? Wait for their condi immune to fall off and then load them up. Cleansing Ire wouldn’t be enough to keep all those condi’s off.

Oh yea, I totally forgot how many Mesmers are in the semifinals…

And tbh, I think condis are balanced.
But even if they wouldn’t be, I’m a little egoistic and would prefer a comeback of those profs like Mesmers and eles. They weren’t in the spotlight for some month now and I would rly prefer them no to get a spot in the sunlight, instead of necro not losing his position in the meta.

Lopez.7369:

And there are barely any condition builds in any of the teams.

Condition meta indeed.

Maybe you should watch the Tournament of Legends then because I see nothing but…

Dee Jay.2460:

Lopez.7369:

And there are barely any condition builds in any of the teams.

Condition meta indeed.

Maybe you should watch the Tournament of Legends then because I see nothing but…

You obviously aren’t paying close enough attention to the matches the 2 most complained about condition classes are Engi and Necro with Necro barely even being used the Engi’s are running either power or condi and not everyone is using Engi’s.

There might be a hybrid ranger, maybe a engi but that is 1 person per team alot of the engi’s are running power nade builds. So you have 10 total players and MAYBE 2 condition builds.

This is for EU and NA not sure what your watching.

Yes the power builds get conditions on their skills but if a Warrior is guilty of being Condi with a bow then a Ele is guilty of being condi for using Fire attunement.

Lopez.7369:

Zero condition builds, unless you count spirit ranger, in the finals.

Yep, and the spirit ranger that Nnight runs is condi-lite with shortbow sword/dagger, more of a defensive support oriented build

Bhawb.7408:

What happened to Team Lonely? Did Necitor decide to just not play Necro despite 2-0ing their opponents yesterday with him on Necro?

I am Necitor… Blu/Sireph just don’t know my account name apparently just my character name haha.

Ya, I was just responding to the two threads which said there weren’t any Necros, when I was literally in the middle of watching you and your team win your round of 8 game.

Fyi, Finals only had 5 professions.

• Warrior x 4
• Guardian x 2
• Elementalist x 2
• Thief
• Ranger

The problem with conditions is the “arms race” between application and cleansing that has happened. Right now, bunky teams bring cleansing out the wazzoo and you just can’t apply them enough to be effective. Previously, you could just apply so fast, having cleanse didn’t matter.

Regardless, we need to learn to beat these bunker comps, which will create comps that are more susceptible to condis.

I am all for reducing the amount of cleanses in the game, and at the same time reduce the application rate for condis. Currently, if you don’t max-out cleanse, you can get condi-bursted and wrecked. If you do max-out cleanse, you can completely shut it down. Let’s roll back the arms race!

Lopez.7369:

Yup.

Along these lines, the addition of Sigil of Generosity is baffling.

Well there was always purity, which is better for cleansing anyway. And buffing/allowing double sigils (they actually buffed geomancy fyi) increased application rate too! The power creep was clearly a little crazy. I DO think that condis can be viable, its just a matter of finding the right team/role to play with them.

Ok it’s bad that there is no necro

but ITS GREAT that it’s not condi meta anymore.

playing condi bunker is so hard …

Liza.2758:

Ok it’s bad that there is no necro

but ITS GREAT that it’s not condi meta anymore.

playing condi bunker is so hard …

Bunker meta is just as bad as tanky condi meta….But there is still opportunity to innovate our way out of it I hope!

BlackBeard.2873:

The problem with conditions is the “arms race” between application and cleansing that has happened. Right now, bunky teams bring cleansing out the wazzoo and you just can’t apply them enough to be effective. Previously, you could just apply so fast, having cleanse didn’t matter.

Regardless, we need to learn to beat these bunker comps, which will create comps that are more susceptible to condis.

I am all for reducing the amount of cleanses in the game, and at the same time reduce the application rate for condis. Currently, if you don’t max-out cleanse, you can get condi-bursted and wrecked. If you do max-out cleanse, you can completely shut it down. Let’s roll back the arms race!

At high level play (orangized teams with voice, comps, and stats) cleansing is much easier. A lot of the condition hate comes from solo que, were you are on your own 99% of the time.

And The way conditions are now is fine, you need to research every class and the specs you will find in SPvP and figure out how many condition cleanses they are going to be running and the timers, and bait those out before you apply your big conditions. If you just front load all your big cd conditions dont expect them to do anything.

and again this is more complicated in TTPvP as you have to account for support from other classes/synergy that is almost non existent in STPvP.

But most condition users aren’t dedicated DPS, they are bunkers/hybrid… its much easier to stack condition damage than power/prec/crit dmg, and still have stat allocation for survival.

If you removed the amount of cleanses in game already STPvP would implode, and the forums would see a never ending river of tears. And TTPvP would probably just be 5 bunkers using conditions snorefest (pretty much like it is now but worse).

The issue is that the condition system is all singular. All cleansing (with very few exceptions) cleanse any condition. This means those useless bleeds that a warrior puts on you get cleansed with the same priority as a fear dealing 1k damage which has the same priority with conditions that are necessary for a build’s defense.

They really need more specific cleansing in the game.

Lopez.7369:

Except for spirit ranger, no condition build is a bunker. I have no idea where that perception comes from. Condition builds are supposed to be tanky, because they’re about attrition, but they’re not anywhere close to being bunkers. (And usually that tankiness is there to make up for a distinct lack of mobility and susceptibility to focus fire.)

it’s not the build that make bunker. it’s amulet.

not like everyone uses carrion.

Liza.2758:

Lopez.7369:

Except for spirit ranger, no condition build is a bunker. I have no idea where that perception comes from. Condition builds are supposed to be tanky, because they’re about attrition, but they’re not anywhere close to being bunkers. (And usually that tankiness is there to make up for a distinct lack of mobility and susceptibility to focus fire.)

it’s not the build that make bunker. it’s amulet.

not like everyone uses carrion.

No, the amulet makes them durable. The build very much so makes them a bunker. Bunkers that can’t mitigate beyond armor, avoid being moved off-point, and replenish their health fail miserably as “bunkers.”

Slapping a soldier amulet on a build does not make you a bunker…

Lopez.7369:

Liza.2758:

Lopez.7369:

Except for spirit ranger, no condition build is a bunker. I have no idea where that perception comes from. Condition builds are supposed to be tanky, because they’re about attrition, but they’re not anywhere close to being bunkers. (And usually that tankiness is there to make up for a distinct lack of mobility and susceptibility to focus fire.)

it’s not the build that make bunker. it’s amulet.

not like everyone uses carrion.

That is completely wrong. You either don’t know what a bunker is or you’re overestimating condition builds.

Tanky, immobile DOT builds are completely normal in MMOs. It’s an archetype. But they’re not bunkers or tanks. Not even close.

I see you want your cheese back. no point talking anymore lol

This game promotes bunker builds to an extreme level. The tourneys are a perfect example in demonstrating that fact.

Lopez.7369:

Liza.2758:

Lopez.7369:

Except for spirit ranger, no condition build is a bunker. I have no idea where that perception comes from. Condition builds are supposed to be tanky, because they’re about attrition, but they’re not anywhere close to being bunkers. (And usually that tankiness is there to make up for a distinct lack of mobility and susceptibility to focus fire.)

it’s not the build that make bunker. it’s amulet.

not like everyone uses carrion.

That is completely wrong. You either don’t know what a bunker is or you’re overestimating condition builds.

Tanky, immobile DOT builds are completely normal in MMOs. It’s an archetype. But they’re not bunkers or tanks. Not even close.

Being bunker is the exact equivalent of healer + tank in one build…..

The “meta” is just conquest. In conquest you need two things. To be able to fight on a point and be tanky. That is the first thing that is important. Surviving 1v2 for a while till back up arrives. Not having to leave the point and let them decap. Being able to hold a point. The king of this is warrior/guardian and spirit ranger/ele can also do this.

Secondly, you need mobility. The game mode is based on mobility because decapping takes no time at all. A thief can always decap your close. Because it takes way longer to cap than decap (why?) then the thief just uses their mobility to decap and then the bunkers can arrive to bunker the point.

This has been the case since the game came out.

Thief/guardian are the meta for 24 months. Necro was meta for 1 month before people qqed and it got nerfed.

The thing is they made an noncompetitive game mode. I love conquest in most games but in this they really should of had many different game modes. They didn’t do this. So necro will never ever be viable because it designed to be slow and bad in 1v2 (no immunities – such as evades, blocks, endure pain etc). So a necro can’t hold a point. He cant stop a decap. He cant do kitten. They could buff necro to the sky and you still wouldnt need one in your team.

Now necro cant even kill bunker guards 1 on 1. I used to be able to now I cant.

But really it is the game mode and nothing else. This game mode is designed to suit mobility and tankiness. That will never change and they will never do a new game mode because they think this game mode is enough for tournaments.

If (miracle) you do get new game modes (you wont) then it will be hotjoin only. Even if it is a success in hotjoin then it will take 12-18 months to get a tournament queue to itself. By that time there wont be a GW2. The game will be even more dead than it currently is from a pvp perspective.

There wont be a new game mode (tournament game mode) before 2016 at the EARLIEST. SO if you want to do well then you need a thief, guardians and warriors. Inhernetly strong classes. Forget necro, it is doomed to not suceed in conquest because of how the class is designed and what the game type rewards – mobility and tankiness.

EVERY Guild wars 2 PvP competition since launch has had a lack or complete absence of Necromancers. I believe this topic deserves a dev response.

Login.5102:

EVERY Guild wars 2 PvP competition since launch has had a lack or complete absence of Necromancers. I believe this topic deserves a dev response.

Devs respond to a Necromancer thread? Funny joke.

Yes, due to dumbfire. Essentially the only time Necromancers have seen significant representation is when we were stupidly OP.

You need heavy CC on your team at mid to protect the Necro from getting focused, while at the same time preventing their team from being able to use stability to guarantee their focus fire by stripping/corrupting it

Null Field / Well of Corruption and Chaos Storm would do wonders to peel for the Necro, not to mention if you have a Hambow and/or Static Field in the team fight.

Lopez.7369:

Mesmers got some condition cleansing, but it’s obviously not as much as other classes since that’s supposed to be a weakness for mesmer.

Regardless, mesmer’s problems are more related to thieves than conditions.

I’m very curious about this condition removal that all profession got buffed. As a thief I can’t say I got much defense against conditions, other than lyssa runes that is available to all, or a long cooldown utility….

But then again, conditions are meant to be a good counter to thief.

I think Necro players haven’t theorycrafted enough or looked at their class as capable of providing backline healing and boons.

The heals you can provide on a Necro to your teammates and the control you have over conditions makes them strong enough to compete for a Staff Ele type of role without having to build around blasting water fields.

I’d personally prefer a Clerics or Magi Necro that specs into Wells, Plague Signet, and DS Healing over a Staff Ele since the team fight would have all their conditions that they need being capable of redirecting toward your team’s target, not to mention stability becoming fear and any regen or might being corrupted.

Ex. Build

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fRAQNAW4Yjk00TbNNe2wfbihBZ6ax+FVAqvWcKA-TJxHAB1eRAQqMwP7PAwTAAA

Inscrutable.8347:

I think Necro players haven’t theorycrafted enough or looked at their class as capable of providing backline healing and boons.

Are you serious? The single worst profession in the game when it comes to AoE boons, and you think we’d be good boon support?

Also, the problem is that we have no true support weapons. It is literally the only thing killing us from being a potential support build. You look at guardians and they have CC and AoE boon spam on their weapon skills. Look at staff, hammer, mace, shield, they have a ton of viable support weapon options. Necromancer support maxes out at giving 100% regen uptime (as far as weapons go). Now, when you look past weapons, our traiting is comparable, Necros can give the highest healing in the game, our utilities could bring awesome support with AoE condi removal, blindness, etc.

But still, we lack the weapons. We’d be a support build with access to only damage weapons. If they ever give us true support weapons then I’d agree with you, because Necromancers have the rest just waiting to be used, but at the moment it doesn’t work.

necro is incredibly strong, but right now at a high level you get trained and have probably the worst defensive utilities in the game. If specced correctly a necro can 1v1 almost everything in this game with the exception of cheesy dueling builds.

Necro right now requires perfect positioning at high levels and a team that is very coordinated at giving peels.

I find that the immobilize from Dagger 3 is actually pretty good for helping your team focus fire. Focus can strip boons, Dagger offhand can condi pass so you can adjust that depending on the opponent.

I should amend what i said about boons to include that it depends on how heavily the other team uses conditions. Well of Corruption doesnt do much if they don’t have conditions, so you could replace that with Well of Darkness if they are power heavy.

The build I linked will provide great support if there is a midline and frontline who fights on the node, does the damage needed, and peels for you. The sheer healing output is shocking

Inscrutable.8347:

I think Necro players haven’t theorycrafted enough or looked at their class as capable of providing backline healing and boons.

The heals you can provide on a Necro to your teammates and the control you have over conditions makes them strong enough to compete for a Staff Ele type of role without having to build around blasting water fields.

I’d personally prefer a Clerics or Magi Necro that specs into Wells, Plague Signet, and DS Healing over a Staff Ele since the team fight would have all their conditions that they need being capable of redirecting toward your team’s target, not to mention stability becoming fear and any regen or might being corrupted.

Ex. Build

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fRAQNAW4Yjk00TbNNe2wfbihBZ6ax+FVAqvWcKA-TJxHAB1eRAQqMwP7PAwTAAA

I am playing necro for quite long and smt like supports/healer necro will never work in high tier pvp. Necro atm is in the worst situation ever was. Necro just dont fit to this game mode , conquer , witch promote good sutain/support , good mobility , good dmg and necro lack all of this.

hehk.8705:

necro is incredibly strong, but right now at a high level you get trained and have probably the worst defensive utilities in the game. If specced correctly a necro can 1v1 almost everything in this game with the exception of cheesy dueling builds.

Necro right now requires perfect positioning at high levels and a team that is very coordinated at giving peels.

Yes necro can 1v1 everything , problem is that enemy can easy make fight 1v2 vs necro and he die in few sec , lack of defensive/disengage utilitys and dont forget that necro cant fight on point vs some profesions like warriors.
Yes positioning is most important for necro , problem is that thief will jump you everywhere , mesmer will use phantasms + gs dmg to presure u and dmg is pretty high ,war with his sustain can just overextend and get u .

Forsaker.9213:

Inscrutable.8347:

I think Necro players haven’t theorycrafted enough or looked at their class as capable of providing backline healing and boons.

The heals you can provide on a Necro to your teammates and the control you have over conditions makes them strong enough to compete for a Staff Ele type of role without having to build around blasting water fields.

I’d personally prefer a Clerics or Magi Necro that specs into Wells, Plague Signet, and DS Healing over a Staff Ele since the team fight would have all their conditions that they need being capable of redirecting toward your team’s target, not to mention stability becoming fear and any regen or might being corrupted.

Ex. Build

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fRAQNAW4Yjk00TbNNe2wfbihBZ6ax+FVAqvWcKA-TJxHAB1eRAQqMwP7PAwTAAA

I am playing necro for quite long and smt like supports/healer necro will never work in high tier pvp. Necro atm is in the worst situation ever was. Necro just dont fit to this game mode , conquer , witch promote good sutain/support , good mobility , good dmg and necro lack all of this.

Yeah it feels like the current condi necro builds havn’t adjusted to the sigil/rune changes very well..

There are few rune sets perfect for necro , we could get some other condi amulets but still that is not the main problem , whole class mechanic/idea just dont fit.

Forsaker.9213:

There are few rune sets perfect for necro , we could get some other condi amulets but still that is not the main problem , whole class mechanic/idea just dont fit.

But certain classes/builds which counter necro have received more substantial buffs IMO.

Forsaker.9213:

Yes necro can 1v1 everything , problem is that enemy can easy make fight 1v2 vs necro and he die in few sec , lack of defensive/disengage utilitys and dont forget that necro cant fight on point vs some profesions like warriors.

So a class that can 1v1 every other class and dies quickly in a 1v2 is terrible?

I realize necromancer players have been spoiled, but even they should understand that this is not the definition of a terrible class.

Let’s be honest here, how many necromancers run with 3 defensive utilities like many other classes?

Necros simply can not be ignored. It takes just a few skills from range to load enough potential damage onto you that you know you are going to be dead in a few seconds.

There were no condition builds in the finals because a condition only build is weak in team play. Instead many people will use celestial stats do deal both some condition and raw damage.

Why should someone play necro if you can play hambow with 20+ might 24/7? Same level of (no)skill but way more effective. Necro is really good only when going power with random lichform 5k autoattack spam…you get 30 secs of the most brainless cheese of them all…but after that you’re done

Slim.3024:

Let’s be honest here, how many necromancers run with 3 defensive utilities like many other classes?

Not many. Utilities are necessary for damage on necros. Even so, the defensive utilities they do get don’t scale beyond one opponent, which is why the “focus the necro” meta exists. It’s got nothing to do with “threat” and everything to do with “quick 5v4”.

Necros simply can not be ignored. It takes just a few skills from range to load enough potential damage onto you that you know you are going to be dead in a few seconds.

And then one skill to completely negate that “potential damage”. It may take multiple skills, but they don’t have to be from the same person. This is a weakness with condition builds in general, not a necro-specific problem.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Slim.3024:

Let’s be honest here, how many necromancers run with 3 defensive utilities like many other classes?

Not many. Utilities are necessary for damage on necros. Even so, the defensive utilities they do get don’t scale beyond one opponent, which is why the “focus the necro” meta exists. It’s got nothing to do with “threat” and everything to do with “quick 5v4”.

That sounds very ominous. Are you saying that death shround, blind fields, teleports, AoE CC or protection even only affect one opponent? I think you are trying to say the necromancer has no invulnerability. The necromancer is not alone in that though.

I also don’t understand how necromancers can argue they have a hard time surviving, if they aren’t willing to trade damage for utility. A necromancer does not need the damage from their utility to kill people. Usually scepter autoattack and deathshroud skills will take care of that.

Necros simply can not be ignored. It takes just a few skills from range to load enough potential damage onto you that you know you are going to be dead in a few seconds.

And then one skill to completely negate that “potential damage”. It may take multiple skills, but they don’t have to be from the same person. This is a weakness with condition builds in general, not a necro-specific problem.

There are very few single abilities that can deal with the kind of condition overload that we see in this game today. Even those that enable you to do so, have a cooldown that is about 5 times as long as the abilities used to overload them with conditions again.

Slim.3024:

Let’s be honest here, how many necromancers run with 3 defensive utilities like many other classes?

Not a single high tier necro.

Corrupt boon is necessary right now, without it you might as well not have the Necro on your team. The other slot is generally Epidemic/Signet of Spite, both highly offensive skills. Then the last slot is almost always Flesh Wurm, or less commonly Spectral Walk/Armor. So generally you’ll only see a Necro with one defensive utility, sometimes, rarely, you’ll see two, and never will you see three.

We lose so much pressure by not having those utilities, and Flesh Wurm is the only one that can actually save you from a bad situation, so you might as well just go full offense and hope you can do enough damage while you’re alive to allow your team to win before you inevitably get trained down and can’t do anything about it.

And yes, Necro is the only class without a reactive damage negation. The only thing we have to negate damage is blind, on either long cast or travel times, that aren’t able to be used to target a single skill (and even then its just one skill), compared to every other class that has multiple negation abilities.