Guild Wars 2

…are pulsing, aoe hard-CCs like Gravity well/Dragon’s Maw.

It doesn’t matter if they belong to an OP (or not) build (though one can argue that they help a build becoming OP), it’s just the fact that they counter so hard Stun breaks (except the few ones which ports you away like Shadowstep/Blink) and Stability in its current form.

They’re so bad design-wise, they promote exactly the opposite of skillful play.

Where are the times when a hard-cc required the right moment to be used in order to be effective?

I agree, Gravity Well and Dragon’s Maw are too strong.

They take too long. Should be atleast halfway shorter for DM, and about 33% on GW.

I kinda like them. They’re big, painful AoE effects that you definitely absolutely want to stand out of, when most AoE in the game you don’t really care about.

Sarrs.4831:

I kinda like them. They’re big, painful AoE effects that you definitely absolutely want to stand out of, when most AoE in the game you don’t really care about.

That’s the point.. They’re too strong because they take too long in pvp..

Terrorsquad.4802:

That’s the point.. They’re too strong because they take too long in pvp..

Take too long or last too long?

If they took longer to channel or had a bigger tell they’d probably be a lot more palatable.

They last too long and the effect of dragon’s maw is worse considering you can’t port out without getting knocked down and getting other damage procs from any other traps combined with it. Unless stability is returned to it’s previous form then gravity well needs to be changed a bit too.

well i’d like to see Scrappers absurd hammer damage coeffecients gone for good too.

Scrapper has MULTIPLE attacks on hammer that either have higher coefficients/damage than backstab or just around the same as backstab, and they all do something defensively as well. here’s a comaparison:

Backstab (something you have to enter stealth to access, then carefully position yourself to land for full damage, and only does damage; nothing else):
Front damage: 403 (1.2)?
Back damage: 806 (2.4)

and now scrapper’s hammer:

Electro-Whirl (6sec CD)
Damage (2x): 888 (2.2)?
Number of Impacts: 2
Number of Targets: 3
Radius: 180
Reflect Missiles
Combo Finisher: Whirl

Rocket Charge
Damage (3x): 1,212 (3.0)?
Number of Impacts: 3
Number of Targets: 5
Radius: 240
Combo Finisher: Leap
Evade: 1s
Range: 1,000

Shock Shield
Damage (5x): 1,010 (2.5)?
10 Vulnerability (5s): 10% Incoming Damage, 10% Incoming Condition Damage
Number of Targets: 5
Block Duration: 2s
Range: 170

Thunderclap
Damage (6x): 1,452 (3.6)?
Vulnerability (8s): 1% Incoming Damage, 1% Incoming Condition Damage
Stun: 1s
Pulses: 6
Interval: 1s
Radius: 240
Combo Field: Lightning
Range: 1,200

why is any of this, at any point, ok? who let this through the development process? why were skills with ridiculous utility also given ridiculous damage while weapons like Thief’s shortbow only offer passable utility at a steep cost of damage?

sinject.4607:

why is any of this, at any point, ok? who let this through the development process? why were skills with ridiculous utility also given ridiculous damage while weapons like Thief’s shortbow only offer passable utility at a steep cost of damage?

I wanna know why they thought Rocket Charge was fair and balanced. Screw Daredevil’s bonus dodges, the real dodge MVP is Scrapper.

Their whole design is a mess, looks like it was done by Twitch chat.

sinject.4607:

well i’d like to see Scrappers absurd hammer damage coeffecients gone for good too.

Scrapper has MULTIPLE attacks on hammer that either have higher coefficients/damage than backstab or just around the same as backstab, and they all do something defensively as well. here’s a comaparison:

Thanks for posting this. The scaling of damage is insane, given that it also does a ton of other things.

I completely agree.
I find it very poor design that a single skill chain CCs.
And the “barrier ring” functionality has always bothered me. It wasn’t a big problem (yet still annoying) when only one such skill existed (Ring of Warding), but Hunter’s Ward and Dragon’s Maw really highlight some issues with this skill type.

can we add that mesmer moa form to the list

sinject.4607:

well i’d like to see Scrappers absurd hammer damage coeffecients gone for good too.

Scrapper has MULTIPLE attacks on hammer that either have higher coefficients/damage than backstab or just around the same as backstab, and they all do something defensively as well. here’s a comaparison:

Backstab (something you have to enter stealth to access, then carefully position yourself to land for full damage, and only does damage; nothing else):
Front damage: 403 (1.2)?
Back damage: 806 (2.4)

and now scrapper’s hammer:

Electro-Whirl (6sec CD)
Damage (2x): 888 (2.2)?
Number of Impacts: 2
Number of Targets: 3
Radius: 180
Reflect Missiles
Combo Finisher: Whirl

Rocket Charge
Damage (3x): 1,212 (3.0)?
Number of Impacts: 3
Number of Targets: 5
Radius: 240
Combo Finisher: Leap
Evade: 1s
Range: 1,000

Shock Shield
Damage (5x): 1,010 (2.5)?
10 Vulnerability (5s): 10% Incoming Damage, 10% Incoming Condition Damage
Number of Targets: 5
Block Duration: 2s
Range: 170

Thunderclap
Damage (6x): 1,452 (3.6)?
Vulnerability (8s): 1% Incoming Damage, 1% Incoming Condition Damage
Stun: 1s
Pulses: 6
Interval: 1s
Radius: 240
Combo Field: Lightning
Range: 1,200

why is any of this, at any point, ok? who let this through the development process? why were skills with ridiculous utility also given ridiculous damage while weapons like Thief’s shortbow only offer passable utility at a steep cost of damage?

Thanks for posting this, i wanted to make post about this as well.

Also so much this!!!! -> why is any of this, at any point, ok? who let this through the development process? why were skills with ridiculous utility also given ridiculous damage while weapons like Thief’s shortbow only offer passable utility at a steep cost of damage?

I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if reason for it would be Grouch~

Galandil.9641:

it’s just the fact that they counter so hard Stun breaks

You know, if your timing is right you can just dodge out of gravity well after breaking the stun, which works with most stunbreakers.
I think all the passive procs in this game are way worse than pulsing cc skills, just look at mallix rev the amount of passive procs on that build is ridiculous and don’t even get me started about passive cc.
If cc wasn’t that strong it would simply have no effect since Anet introduced massive stability spam with HoT, most of that is pulsing as well or linked to something spam able like dodges.
And why do you think these skills are designed badly? If you tank them they are nothing more than a long lasting cc and if not they are area denial like pretty much every pulsing aoe in this game.
I would also prefer a cc skill with such an obvious tell as gravity well over some insta-cast cc every day.

You plebs don’t realize how stupid you are. Healing turrets synergy with the inventions trait line is what makes a scrapers op.
Also the DMG is fine…..after all their wearing marauders amulet:/

Skittledness.5106:

You plebs don’t realize how stupid you are. Healing turrets synergy with the inventions trait line is what makes a scrapers op.
Also the DMG is fine…..after all their wearing marauders amulet:/

you serious? hammer spells do backstab dmg w/o investment while giving extra really good utility

sinject.4607:

why is any of this, at any point, ok? who let this through the development process? why were skills with ridiculous utility also given ridiculous damage while weapons like Thief’s shortbow only offer passable utility at a steep cost of damage?

I’l tell you why, because they want to sell copies of HoT and the most surefire way to do that is to make the elite specializations broken op. Tell me when was the last time you saw a class not using it’s elite spec in pvp? Whenever i spot one that is not it’s because they did not buy hot.

Also just as a reminder elite specs were suppose to be on par with the core lines suppose to give classes different play styles (melee engineer, range guardian ect), and the ‘elite’ name was to do with the fact you can only have 1 slotted (when they release more). Something along thees lines was said by the game director when they first revealed HoT and the new trait system.

Skittledness.5106:

You plebs don’t realize how stupid you are. Healing turrets synergy with the inventions trait line is what makes a scrapers op.
Also the DMG is fine…..after all their wearing marauders amulet:/

The fact that you use the word plebs makes me not take take anything you write seriously.

foste.3098:

Skittledness.5106:

You plebs don’t realize how stupid you are. Healing turrets synergy with the inventions trait line is what makes a scrapers op.
Also the DMG is fine…..after all their wearing marauders amulet:/

The fact that you use the word plebs makes me not take take anything you write seriously.

The fact that he doesn’t understand how damage coefficients are completely unrelated to what amulet they are using is what makes me not take him seriously. It also makes me wonder how many people do not understand basic concepts in general.

Hansen.3264:

can we add that mesmer moa form to the list

I actually killed a lot of ppl under moa effect, it’s hilarious

I’d be okay with it if Mesmers couldn’t use Grav wells twice and if they removed the final float on it. :/

Skittledness.5106:

You plebs don’t realize how stupid you are. Healing turrets synergy with the inventions trait line is what makes a scrapers op.
Also the DMG is fine…..after all their wearing marauders amulet:/

Damage coefficient is independent of Amulet. Now here is a candy, go away play your play doh and let the adults discuss it.

The one thing I’d like to see gone from the game is Revenant. Everything about this class just gives me cancer.
Everything from passive, unavoidable 3 sec taunt (and 6 sec protection) to stability on dodge.
Don’t even get me started on Unrelenting Assault.

+1.

I am not a fan of getting caught in a gravity well, but I also don’t see is as quite the issue dragon maw can be, especially in the hands of experienced players. That being said, if we could get a little bolder aoe-circle when approaching, could be enough warning to apply appropriate retaliation and regen.

There is nothing quite as satisfying as bombing an overzealous DH with their own rotation.

Gravity well can be countered with paying attention, and timi ng stun breaks. Doesn’t do the nuke level damage like maw either, imo.

Rebound.3409:

Hansen.3264:

can we add that mesmer moa form to the list

I actually killed a lot of ppl under moa effect, it’s hilarious

Not to mention that moa haves a pretty good sprint to just run away until it wears off.

I don’t understand your logic. All those skills are multi hit, all the hits total add up to that amount. A backstab is guaranteed one hit single target damage.

sinject.4607:

well i’d like to see Scrappers absurd hammer damage coeffecients gone for good too.

Scrapper has MULTIPLE attacks on hammer that either have higher coefficients/damage than backstab or just around the same as backstab, and they all do something defensively as well. here’s a comaparison:

Backstab (something you have to enter stealth to access, then carefully position yourself to land for full damage, and only does damage; nothing else):
Front damage: 403 (1.2)?
Back damage: 806 (2.4)

and now scrapper’s hammer:

Electro-Whirl (6sec CD)
Damage (2x): 888 (2.2)?
Number of Impacts: 2
Number of Targets: 3
Radius: 180
Reflect Missiles
Combo Finisher: Whirl

Rocket Charge
Damage (3x): 1,212 (3.0)?
Number of Impacts: 3
Number of Targets: 5
Radius: 240
Combo Finisher: Leap
Evade: 1s
Range: 1,000

Shock Shield
Damage (5x): 1,010 (2.5)?
10 Vulnerability (5s): 10% Incoming Damage, 10% Incoming Condition Damage
Number of Targets: 5
Block Duration: 2s
Range: 170

Thunderclap
Damage (6x): 1,452 (3.6)?
Vulnerability (8s): 1% Incoming Damage, 1% Incoming Condition Damage
Stun: 1s
Pulses: 6
Interval: 1s
Radius: 240
Combo Field: Lightning
Range: 1,200

why is any of this, at any point, ok? who let this through the development process? why were skills with ridiculous utility also given ridiculous damage while weapons like Thief’s shortbow only offer passable utility at a steep cost of damage?

Agreed, it’s too much area cc. The worse is that’s is an elite, and with the Chronomancer class mechanic they can cast that elite 2 times in a row. It’s a complete lock-down on 5 people that they can cast twice.

Loop.8106:

The one thing I’d like to see gone from the game is Revenant. Everything about this class just gives me cancer.
Everything from passive, unavoidable 3 sec taunt (and 6 sec protection) to stability on dodge.
Don’t even get me started on Unrelenting Assault.

Unrelenting Assault.?

Realy ?
REEEEALY ?

in pvp its almost useless and super situational
THX to all the clones/minions/Pets/Stealth/Npcs/Other players
it barely does any dmg to the main target because of these its mainly used for survival nowdays.
are you playing a warrior ? thats the only class i can think of having issues againts it in a 1v1.

sinject.4607:

well i’d like to see Scrappers absurd hammer damage coeffecients gone for good too.

Scrapper has MULTIPLE attacks on hammer that either have higher coefficients/damage than backstab or just around the same as backstab, and they all do something defensively as well. here’s a comaparison:

Backstab (something you have to enter stealth to access, then carefully position yourself to land for full damage, and only does damage; nothing else):
Front damage: 403 (1.2)?
Back damage: 806 (2.4)

and now scrapper’s hammer:

Electro-Whirl (6sec CD)
Damage (2x): 888 (2.2)?
Number of Impacts: 2
Number of Targets: 3
Radius: 180
Reflect Missiles
Combo Finisher: Whirl

Rocket Charge
Damage (3x): 1,212 (3.0)?
Number of Impacts: 3
Number of Targets: 5
Radius: 240
Combo Finisher: Leap
Evade: 1s
Range: 1,000

Shock Shield
Damage (5x): 1,010 (2.5)?
10 Vulnerability (5s): 10% Incoming Damage, 10% Incoming Condition Damage
Number of Targets: 5
Block Duration: 2s
Range: 170

Thunderclap
Damage (6x): 1,452 (3.6)?
Vulnerability (8s): 1% Incoming Damage, 1% Incoming Condition Damage
Stun: 1s
Pulses: 6
Interval: 1s
Radius: 240
Combo Field: Lightning
Range: 1,200

why is any of this, at any point, ok? who let this through the development process? why were skills with ridiculous utility also given ridiculous damage while weapons like Thief’s shortbow only offer passable utility at a steep cost of damage?

I’d like to know to. Was Anet drunk or something.

Nah, Grouch just wants to win games.

I also blame Grouch. Scrapper’s hammer damage is ridiculously high. Power builds are not viable in this bunker meta unless you have high damage mitigation/heals/active defenses like scrapper (so hard to kill and they use kittening marauder) or like revenant (WTF is that sustain with viper amulet ? Are they serious ?).

Still waiting for some insight on the incoming balance.

Wait wha? You are crying bout scrapper hammer dmg? You thieves have nothing to do?right?

If anything you should whine about revenant dmg + condi, chrono survival and dmg, necro invincibility + dmg, dh traps and dmg, druid dmg + heals + pets, tempest survival + dmg…

Ragnarox.9601:

Wait wha? You are crying bout scrapper hammer dmg? You thieves have nothing to do?right?

If anything you should whine about revenant dmg + condi, chrono survival and dmg, necro invincibility + dmg, dh traps and dmg, druid dmg + heals + pets, tempest survival + dmg…

revs are at least killable
chrono bunker doesn’t do much dmg
i found necro actually easiest target to kill as thief
druid pets are broken, period
tempest does ok dmg

scrapper on other hand…… really high dmg, really high survival…

Cynz.9437:

Ragnarox.9601:

Wait wha? You are crying bout scrapper hammer dmg? You thieves have nothing to do?right?

If anything you should whine about revenant dmg + condi, chrono survival and dmg, necro invincibility + dmg, dh traps and dmg, druid dmg + heals + pets, tempest survival + dmg…

revs are at least killable
chrono bunker doesn’t do much dmg
i found necro actually easiest target to kill as thief
druid pets are broken, period
tempest does ok dmg

scrapper on other hand…… really high dmg, really high survival…

Cmon, scrappers dont have high dmg (10k backstabs, 8k HS), they have high sustain and they just hard counter stealth classes (especially thieves) with aoe reval plus stealth. Thieves can’t and shouldn’t be able to beat or own anyone. Like DH can’t beat tempests or revenant or reaper. You cant have it all (at least you can 100% escape from fights you can’t win unlike other classes)

Ragnarox.9601:

Cynz.9437:

Ragnarox.9601:

Wait wha? You are crying bout scrapper hammer dmg? You thieves have nothing to do?right?

If anything you should whine about revenant dmg + condi, chrono survival and dmg, necro invincibility + dmg, dh traps and dmg, druid dmg + heals + pets, tempest survival + dmg…

revs are at least killable
chrono bunker doesn’t do much dmg
i found necro actually easiest target to kill as thief
druid pets are broken, period
tempest does ok dmg

scrapper on other hand…… really high dmg, really high survival…

Cmon, scrappers dont have high dmg, they have high sustain and they just hard counter stealth classes (especially thieves) with aoe reval plus stealth. Thieves can’t and shouldn’t be able to beat or own anyone. Like DH can’t beat tempests or revenant or reaper. You cant have it all.

yeaaah rrright tell that to hammer dmg that takes almost my entire HP bar in 1 cast

I’m surprised about how many people are agreeing with this, “Scrapper hammer damage is too high” thing…

In WvW I run a mixture of Marauder and zerk. Mostly zerk, only 5 pieces of Marauder (head, chest, legs, hammer and amulet) and rifle hits a lot harder. Hammer AA is slow and it’s melee. It does between 3 and 4k a hit, I don’t take any of the defensive traits.

Electro-whirl is the hardest hitter. If you tank both the first and second hits from it, it will do between 6 and 12k. Again, this is with an almost entirely offensive build though.

Rocket Charge only does like 2 – 3k a hit and honestly the majority of the time people dodge, block or only get hit by one of the the three attacks in the chain. It hurts if you let every one of them hit you but it still shouldn’t be a massive threat unless you’re a full zerk 11k health Thief.

Thunderclap only hurts if you let the Scrapper combo you with it. Otherwise it’s not like it’s hard to step out of it.

And Shock Shield is pretty hard to land due to it’s very short range and very obvious animation.

I’ll agree that hammer hits hard but it’s much more of a sustained damage weapon than it is a burst damage weapon. It’s like Warrior 1h axe, it consistently does high damage but doesn’t have a lot of ways to actually burst (this is obviously not including Eviscerate, strictly talking about the AA and the other 4 axe skills). If you lock your opponent down, you’re not going to be able to follow up with a quick 10k+ hit like you can with rifle. Overcharged Shot -> Net Shot -> Jump Shot -> Blunderbuss. I have literally 2 shot a lot of Thieves just with Jump Shot and Blunderbuss alone because each of them does between 6 and 10k+.

So again, hammer hits hard but it’s not bursty. Scrapper counters Thieves, don’t try to 1v1 them. If you’re not a Thief, don’t facetank all their combos. Fight it like an axe Warrior, sitting in those attacks will add up really quick but if you get locked down, in most cases, you shouldn’t have to worry about an impending burst (except for the rare builds that bring Grenade Barrage)

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

I
I’ll agree that hammer hits hard but it’s much more of a sustained damage weapon than it is a burst damage weapon. It’s like Warrior 1h axe, it consistently does high damage but doesn’t have a lot of ways to actually burst

So elector whirl hitting for ~7k is not considered burst? It deals similar damage to a back stab but can cleave, requires no setup, and is a reflect and only has 2 second longer cd (reveal lasting 4 sec in pvp and it acting as a cd for stealth attacks).

Hammer has way to high damage given the fact what is is loaded with utility. The aa, although not high on damage, stacks might and vuln you have a block on 20 sec, a reflect on a 6 sec(!), a aoe stun on 24 sec, and a mobility skill on 10 sec.

Ether the damage needs to get lowered or the utility needs to get tuned down. Pick one.

Ragnarox.9601:

Cynz.9437:

Ragnarox.9601:

Wait wha? You are crying bout scrapper hammer dmg? You thieves have nothing to do?right?

If anything you should whine about revenant dmg + condi, chrono survival and dmg, necro invincibility + dmg, dh traps and dmg, druid dmg + heals + pets, tempest survival + dmg…

revs are at least killable
chrono bunker doesn’t do much dmg
i found necro actually easiest target to kill as thief
druid pets are broken, period
tempest does ok dmg

scrapper on other hand…… really high dmg, really high survival…

Cmon, scrappers dont have high dmg (10k backstabs, 8k HS), they have high sustain and they just hard counter stealth classes (especially thieves) with aoe reval plus stealth. Thieves can’t and shouldn’t be able to beat or own anyone. Like DH can’t beat tempests or revenant or reaper. You cant have it all (at least you can 100% escape from fights you can’t win unlike other classes)

Wait wait wait…
10k backstab?
8k HS??
Well… i’ll just leave it as it is.
And wow, “thieves can’t and shouldn’t be able to own anyone”, please think a little bit and try getting what’s wrong with what you just said.

So many painful truths in one thread, i could agree with at least 70% of what was said here As i see it, the 3 main things that hurt balance the most are passives, hard CCs and basic power scaling in elite specs. I tried something with one of my mesmer friends- we stood in a custom arena and they let me AA them while they stood still. For god’s sake, i got damaged down to 75% HP, stunned, dazed and ambushed by clones by only AAing them… not to mention that they got auto stealthed periodically while generating clones like no tomorrow. Ok, this is mesmer. What about revs? (Even just core, i don’t even wanna start talking about glint…) and engies? (Especially the invuln elixir) the amount of passives is just insane, to the point that the build can carry the player. This shouldn’t exist, imo. Yes, i know i would suffer from having less passives because i’m a pretty average~ PvPer, but i think it is just not healthy for the game.

This CC over-kill they interduced is the whole reason we have this boring af bunker meta. To counter all this cc you are foreced to build bunker (stability, prot…) builds or if not die like a savage and watch my skills recharge same way as my eyes are rolling. Gw2 right now makes me wanna play some go-cart racing game, now thats serious pvp.

Reem.3578:

Ragnarox.9601:

Cynz.9437:

Ragnarox.9601:

Wait wha? You are crying bout scrapper hammer dmg? You thieves have nothing to do?right?

If anything you should whine about revenant dmg + condi, chrono survival and dmg, necro invincibility + dmg, dh traps and dmg, druid dmg + heals + pets, tempest survival + dmg…

revs are at least killable
chrono bunker doesn’t do much dmg
i found necro actually easiest target to kill as thief
druid pets are broken, period
tempest does ok dmg

scrapper on other hand…… really high dmg, really high survival…

Cmon, scrappers dont have high dmg (10k backstabs, 8k HS), they have high sustain and they just hard counter stealth classes (especially thieves) with aoe reval plus stealth. Thieves can’t and shouldn’t be able to beat or own anyone. Like DH can’t beat tempests or revenant or reaper. You cant have it all (at least you can 100% escape from fights you can’t win unlike other classes)

Wait wait wait…
10k backstab?
8k HS??
Well… i’ll just leave it as it is.
And wow, “thieves can’t and shouldn’t be able to own anyone”, please think a little bit and try getting what’s wrong with what you just said.

So many painful truths in one thread, i could agree with at least 70% of what was said here As i see it, the 3 main things that hurt balance the most are passives, hard CCs and basic power scaling in elite specs. I tried something with one of my mesmer friends- we stood in a custom arena and they let me AA them while they stood still. For god’s sake, i got damaged down to 75% HP, stunned, dazed and ambushed by clones by only AAing them… not to mention that they got auto stealthed periodically while generating clones like no tomorrow. Ok, this is mesmer. What about revs? (Even just core, i don’t even wanna start talking about glint…) and engies? (Especially the invuln elixir) the amount of passives is just insane, to the point that the build can carry the player. This shouldn’t exist, imo. Yes, i know i would suffer from having less passives because i’m a pretty average~ PvPer, but i think it is just not healthy for the game.

in almost 3 years of playing this game i saw backstab hitting for 10k+ only once… which was in wvw, from full zerker signet thief

avg backstab hits for 3k in pvp FYI

hs hitting for 8k? in which game?