Guild Wars 2

My Background:

Guild Wars 2 – My pvp rank is 40+. I only played the 8v8 matches (never played tournaments). I have a good amount of experience with the elementalist, necromancer, ranger, and thief.

Dota 2 – Only played ~4 private matches with NPCs, and 2 pvp matches so far. Other than that, I’ve never played a Dota-like game before. I’ve tried only 4 heroes so far: Invoker, Visage, Death Prophet, and Anti-Mage. I generally found them boring to play except for Invoker.

Differences in favor of Dota 2:

- Easy to comprehend from watching a match – I just needed to watch basically 1 match (from TotalHalibut on youtube) to understand the jist of Dota 2. It’s not as easy with Guild Wars 2, especially because the player can customize their build beforehand. This point is only important to get new players into the game.

- Still Learning – With regards to Dota 2, I’m still improving my skills, learning how to control Invoker effectively, and learning about the game’s details. With GW2, I think I’ve found some of the most effective builds and generally have already learned how to play properly (which did take me a long time), so I don’t feel like I really learn/improve anything anymore. When there isn’t enough new things to learn/try or ways to improve myself, then I get bored and find something else (in the context of a PvP game). (Note: GW1 pvp lasted a long time for me because there were so many builds to try out, and this would repeat itself each time Anet would re-balance/modify the abilities).

- Changing Roles and Decisions within a match – With Invoker, I have to swap my abilities (and manage my “attunements” which impacts my stats) based on the situation quite often. Sometimes I have to deal more dmg, or be tankier, or run faster. For abilities, sometimes i need to slow the opponent, or stun them, or deal dmg, or etc. For GW2, in contrast, the initial build/class largely determines our role. And, consider my D/D elementalist, which generally uses the same combo (of attunement swaps and abilities) for all sort of situations. Furthermore, the “shock aura” is almost always my answer for defense, since it gives me protection and shocks melee attackers. And, “ride the lightning” is pretty much always the answer for getting away when someone’s chasing me. In other words, there aren’t a whole lot of decisions to consider for many scenarios that often occur.

— continued —-——

- Changing Environments – In Dota 2, it’s quite interesting with minions and towers, because it changes the advantage for opposing players; for example, if I’m near my minions or towers, then I’d generally have an advantage when fighting another player. The point is that the dynamic environment changes in ways that can favor one side over the other. And because of factors like “minion blocking”, in general, the environment is generally not exactly the same from one skirmish to the next (which the player will need to consider each time).

- Multiple Goals – In Dota 2, it’s about pushing lanes, denying last hits, gaining gold, denying opponents from gaining experience, etc. Guild Wars 2 sort of has multiple goals, but it really only boils down to holding Control Points; getting kills doesn’t give very much points (and ppl come back so fast), and the other ways to earn points generally aren’t always available (e.g., Lord or Svanir). It should also be noted that some goals are more appealing than others; for example, defeating an opponent is generally more satisfying than passively gaining points after capturing a control point. I think the goals in Dota 2 are more appealing.

- Multiple items of Engagement (or things to keep players thinking) – The previous 3 points mentioned above basically falls under this category, but I thought they were interesting enough to mention separately. To further emphasize how much there is to consider during a match in Dota 2, generally a player would need to constantly think about the shop, last hits, location-awareness, positioning, etc. I don’t think there’s as many things to consider in GW2, and hence less items of engagement. (When I was starting to get bored of GW2 pvp, I started to gravitate towards the thief, because their positioning was generally more crucial/important than when playing other classes).

Things I Enjoy in Both:

- PvP – that is, the opponent is generally unpredictable, such that, I need to predict what the opponent is planning to do. It’s more satisfying to defeat such an opponent.

- Cooperation/Teamwork among random groups – I think I get a better sense of cooperation in Guild Wars 2 than Dota 2. However, the bond I feel is even better in Guild Wars 1 (Random Arena matches), where there’s a lot more communication & cooperation and multiple rounds of sticking together.

Final Remarks:
I don’t really think the lack of variety in game modes (in Guild Wars 2) is the real problem with this game, unless the game mode can fix the “real culprits” which impacts fun/enjoyability (for a substantial number of players). For a more concrete example of a “culprit”, consider the satisfaction gained from defeating a player character versus capturing control points (and gaining points) to win; for me, defeating/fighting a player is more satisfying/fun.

What do you guys think are the “real culprits” that make the current pvp unenjoyable? And possible solutions to remedy/fix them?

Any opposing thoughts on what I wrote?

Feel free to compare against other games.

i think the reason why Dota is more enjoyable is that the game is divided into sections – the laning at the beginning then the game becomes more about towers with ganking and in the end about big team fights. The whole game feels more dynamic, while in GW2 it’s only – go cap/fight on the node, of course it has secondary objectives but they make only such small portion of the overall game that they are pretty forgettable.

inb4 “that’s not how dota works” – That is how i see it.

^respect getting r40 in hotjoin only. That’s rly impressive (no sarcams). I did one tourny at r8 and since then I can’t ever go back to hotjoin unless it’s for buildtesting.

butch.8136:

^respect getting r40 in hotjoin only. That’s rly impressive (no sarcams). I did one tourny at r8 and since then I can’t ever go back to hotjoin unless it’s for buildtesting.

It’s much easier to rank up in hot-join than in tournaments.

I much prefer the dynamic, fast-paced gameplay of GW2. MOBAs are slow and boring in comparison. Too bad GW2 squandered that advantage with a barebones PvP experience that lacks features, variety, and balance.

Chi Malady.2015:

butch.8136:

^respect getting r40 in hotjoin only. That’s rly impressive (no sarcams). I did one tourny at r8 and since then I can’t ever go back to hotjoin unless it’s for buildtesting.

It’s much easier to rank up in hot-join than in tournaments.

Easier yes, but…I would die of boredom I think.

Dota 2 and League of Legends also both benefit from the network effect. There are a lot of people playing, posting videos and streaming their gameplay (and even receiving view cash donations for it), and that type of large player network and excitement level helps make the gameplay more interesting and meaningful.

I feel that Guild Wars 2 has not yet developed that level of excitement for a number of reasons, and I think part of the solution would be to offer more watchable variety in spvp game modes, improve the viewing engine to allow for spectators, replay with movable cameras, improved announcers, and providing a monitored leaderboard, with rankings and cosmetic rewards.

Actual microtransaction examples from other games: Sell tickets for players to watch others compete in big tournaments; Sell replays of the events; Offer different voice announcers or NPC skins during the matches. Heck, if I buy a 500-gem skin so that the Blue Lord appears like a Charr or a 300-gem Announcer so that everyone hears Rurik say “The Blue Lord has been slain!”, that’s entertaining… and gives each game a little more variety.

Some of these social and spectator quality of life improvements are seen in games like Dota 2 and League of Legends, and I think would help advertise Guild Wars 2 to a broader base of players.

I wish the announcer in GW2 was more like the one in DOTA Allstars.
(pops Bull’s Charge in a team fight)
M M M M MONSTERKILL

you also forgot that moba games have progression in where a farmed players or players with lots of kills can have better gears and higher level.
which can give the player huge advantage over others and this advantage make that players feel strong or better than the others, those kind of progression did not exist in gw 2.

in dota 2 a farmed carry can 1 v 5 .. in gw 2 2 v 1 is almost impossible let alone 1 v 5

I agree that the basic gameplay needs to be improved, before worrying about balance or variety.

I hate MOBAs, for various reasons. I also hate MMO combat tho, just slightly less.

A game like the Street Fighter series can be fun and deep even if you play Ryu vs. Ryu all day. The basic combat is fun and deep enough that additional characters is just icing on the cake. (and fighting games never have additional game modes anyways.)

How would GW2 get there? I think it should learn from action games and action-MMOs. Shorter cooldowns on most things, (especially evade), and some sort of tradeoff between offense vs. defence. And risk-reward, if you perform powerful actions it should leave you more vulnerable to punishment.

I dearly hope that GW2 does NOT learn from MOBAs or traditional MMOs….

I got DOTA 2 recently and it actually FEELS like a PVP game, instead of a beat-em-up where everyone is Ryu. I must say as well, the whole game just feels more geared to PVP instead of it having Paids which no one plays, Free which is so-so depending on what time it is, and hotjoin which is thief spam Armageddon.

A friend of mine got GW2 for xmas of his missus and he was interested in PVP. He came with me into hotjoin and within about 5 games he said “this is stupid, I have no chance against that stealth class that one shots me, screw this” and now he plays nothing but PVE and WV2. This game is a god kitten joke at times, and people know it. I told him to roll a bunker, he said whats the point, why did they make a PVP game in which is was tanks vs rogues (he is an old wow player).

He already had DOTA 2, and now really appreciates how good it is now he has played this sham.

Stormy O.7025:

With GW2, I think I’ve found some of the most effective builds and generally have already learned how to play properly (which did take me a long time), so I don’t feel like I really learn/improve anything anymore. When there isn’t enough new things to learn/try or ways to improve myself, then I get bored and find something else (in the context of a PvP game).

I don’t want to come off as if I’m flaming you, but I have to say something about this, because there is a massive misconception people have when they play games. Sorry if this is rude, but you are not anywhere near being “skill-capped,” which is the point at which you cannot improve.

I say this because no one in this game is skill-capped. I could really go on a rant about this, but I feel like it will fall on deaf ears. You might be fairly comfortable with what your abilities are bound to, and what they do. You might be fairly comfortable with the cooldowns on your abilities, but I can tell you right now you are not “skill-capped.”

How anyone thinks DOTA 2 is more intuitive than GW2 is beyond me unless you’ve been initiated in the format. It, like GW2, requires outside research in order to be ‘competitive’. Its got multitudes of different heroes with different abilities and role proficiencies that can ruin your day, item builds, verbally abusive teammates/enemies etc. I have an invite but I’m sure I want to get into another monolithic scene.

DOTA 2 and most of its ilk just have the availability of nestling their newer players in a matchmaking system where they’ll be linked with similarly skilled players.

Rezz.8019:

Games just can’t be compared. Dota 2 is well known PvP-only game, initially made by 1 person. Played by millions of players all over the world.
Guild Wars 2 is extremely unknown MMO game, based on PvE., made by the company only caring about the money

So yeah… guess which one is more enjoyable.

Dota wasnt made by one person. Dota allstars was lead primarily by one person after a period of time but the original as well as its many dota clones afterwards came long before that. Look up the wiki if you want more info.

Lavexis.5360:

you also forgot that moba games have progression…

You’re right, I totally forgot about character-progression. I’d consider that to be a very important one as it does make Dota 2 more enjoyable.

Follidus.8027:

… Sorry if this is rude, but you are not anywhere near being “skill-capped,” which is the point at which you cannot improve…

Right, I know that. I was hoping words like “feel” or “enough” would hint at that. It’s hard to quantify a precise amount of improvement in order for me to enjoy that aspect (of improving myself). Furthermore, I’m playing hotjoin, so it’s not like I’m meeting super-competitive players who would challenge me to a great extent. However, I should point out that I don’t like the plentiful communication (via a mic) and specific builds that’s required to be competitive in tournaments. I prefer a more casual experience (without ppl constantly harping into a mic and without much pre-planning).

condiments.8043:

How anyone thinks DOTA 2 is more intuitive than GW2 is beyond me unless you’ve been initiated in the format. It, like GW2, requires outside research in order to be ‘competitive’…

After watching a video of DOTA 2, I felt like I could just hop in and know what I’m supposed to do. A couple of reasons for this are 1) I don’t have to learn the different things that are on each of GW2’s maps, and 2) I don’t have to learn GW2’s trait system and 10 abilities (or 15 if we include weapon swap). There’s only 1 map in Dota 2, and the 4 abilities (which is the case for most of the heroes) can be quickly looked over and remembered at the beginning of the match.

Stormy O.7025:

Lavexis.5360:

you also forgot that moba games have progression…

You’re right, I totally forgot about character-progression. I’d consider that to be a very important one as it does make Dota 2 more enjoyable.

Follidus.8027:

… Sorry if this is rude, but you are not anywhere near being “skill-capped,” which is the point at which you cannot improve…

Right, I know that. I was hoping words like “feel” or “enough” would hint at that. It’s hard to quantify a precise amount of improvement in order for me to enjoy that aspect (of improving myself). Furthermore, I’m playing hotjoin, so it’s not like I’m meeting super-competitive players who would challenge me to a great extent. However, I should point out that I don’t like the plentiful communication (via a mic) and specific builds that’s required to be competitive in tournaments. I prefer a more casual experience (without ppl constantly harping into a mic and without much pre-planning).

condiments.8043:

How anyone thinks DOTA 2 is more intuitive than GW2 is beyond me unless you’ve been initiated in the format. It, like GW2, requires outside research in order to be ‘competitive’…

After watching a video of DOTA 2, I felt like I could just hop in and know what I’m supposed to do. A couple of reasons for this are 1) I don’t have to learn the different things that are on each of GW2’s maps, and 2) I don’t have to learn GW2’s trait system and 10 abilities (or 15 if we include weapon swap). There’s only 1 map in Dota 2, and the 4 abilities (which is the case for most of the heroes) can be quickly looked over and remembered at the beginning of the match.

The flipside to that is if you play league of legends or dota 2…especially dota 2 actually. You’ll be locked into certain expectations to do various things. Also its not laid back run around kill and have fun. Its a team game similiar to 5v5 in gw2. Requiring heavily on team coordination to acheive a victory. And a death in dota 2 means you lose exp, you lose gold, the enemy gains a LOT of gold and gains a lot of exp. To put that in a better understanding…he is now extremely stronger than you for one slip up. Not only is he stronger than you, hes stronger than your teammates…so you just created an unpleasant atmosphere for your team which will immidiatly result in them flaming you. And sure you can learn our 4 abilities…but you also need to know the 4 abilities on each of your teammates and more importantly your enemies, and theres over 100 champs with 4 abilities.

So i dont think you’d enjoy it, if you dont like competitive gw2 play or communication and pre-set strats. Honestly i compare gw2 more to team fortress 2, which sounds more like what you enjoy. A 3d class based game with different maps each with its own objective and a loose atmosphere. And yes, tf2’s pvp is done far more professionally than gw2 which feels to still be in a beta phase.

(just my opinion). I think gw2 biggest mistake is too much customization. The reason this is a problem, is they obviously did not and do not have the team or manpower to balance it. What you end up with is the illusion of choices. But really its a couple good choices with a whole lot of “trap” choices…aka, noob trap, or BAD choices.

You can grab certain traits, certain runes, certain abilities…some of which are still bugged or dont work or are just plain crappy and be punished for it. They went ahead and dove in without considering…hey…you gotta balance all this stuff. Or maybe they just forgot how fickle the average internet gamer is….fan boys stick around, but most players acknowledge the game is incomplete and dont feel like sitting around playing a game in early development and move onto the next big thing. Which is pretty much the case here.

Stormy O.7025:

- Easy to comprehend from watching a match – I just needed to watch basically 1 match (from TotalHalibut on youtube) to understand the jist of Dota 2. It’s not as easy with Guild Wars 2, especially because the player can customize their build beforehand. This point is only important to get new players into the game.

Have you played LoL or HoN? Because if I were to sit someone down who has never played either type of game, I just do not see how they would find DOTA (or any MOBA) easier to understand than A GW2 map, which is far, far simpler. Matches also take far less time, so by the time I’ve watched a third of long DOTA match, I could have watched 3 GW2 games and maybe grasped things like the trebuchet / that killing the big ugly cheiftan guy gives a bonus.

With a GW2 map the basic premise is simple, there are three points, you win the game by capturing and holding points, you fight the other team, that is basically it, DOTA is far more complicated.

As for customizing a build beforehand, so what, if I were to sit someone down in front of DOTA all they would see is a screen flash up, the player very quickly select what they needed and generally be none the wiser as to what had changed.

I also think you left something off enjoyability, the actual feeling of combat, I generally find 3d combat much more engaging to actually play than 2d point and click with a very limited number of skills, the actual combat is dull.

Ok now my opinion of enjoyability:

Dota has a lot more difficult to understand gameplay in comparison to gw2 for a new player. Example: a new player comes to a pvp match of gw2 and dota without any information about both games. In gw2 he already has his gear and traits, so he can follow his teammates to the first circular grey point and after standing in it with them he gets points, so in his mind standing in points other color than his team = good. He keeps following his teammates around the map and continues capping or attacking enemies, that also rewards points. So hitting enemies = good. By capping points he also notices that large numbers in the upper part of the screen tend to increase faster the more circular objects are in his team color – so bigger numbers usually means its better and then he realizes the goal of the game: to hold as many circular objects in his color as possible. After a while ~10 minutes the game stops and it says X Team is a winner, large numbers show that they have 500 points, so that is the goal to win.

Now dota – you choose a hero from many, many other heroes, usually because he looks cool. You enter a match and try to follow your teammates, but they split up and run off to different directions, so you choose a path and follow one or two there. So now you noticed they stopped and started attacking some creatures that run in a single line towards you – you do the same, but what is rewarded, is it just standing in that particular line of map, is it doing as much damage as possible to this creature or is it hitting the last hit since the rewards tend to be different sometimes? Now you got one bar full and it allows you to + some of the 4 icons, so since you are a newcomer you either choose randomly or read each and choose 1. After some time you notice that your teammates are getting back towards the place you have spawned. Why? They come there stand for a bit and run away. If you are more observant, you notice that there is an NPC and after pressing on him a shop opens. What should you choose to buy – you have no idea. After a while there is an announcement that a tower was destroyed, is it good or is it bad? Well destruction of your objects is usually bad, so lets say it is bad – what now, did you loose the game? It appears to be still running, so probably destruction of towers is not that meaningful, just return to hit creatures that rewards you and avoid players, since they hit you for almost all your health. Another tower falls somewhere, but its no concern since you did not loose any points and the game is still running so no negative feedback, also the enemy creatures move closer to your spawn, so now there is no need to run so far from spawn, not bad. After a ~half an hour+ you loose, maybe because they destroyed all your towers, maybe because the time ran out or maybe because they destroyed that center glowing object, well since it is the largest thing you saw in game that may be it.

Sorry for the long example, but gw2 comparisons to moba games annoys me and currently these topics are on the rise – for me moba combat is VERY boring (back and forth movement), the matches feels extreamly long, you have to kill mobs primarily, not people, graphics are two dimensional and clustered, gear progression makes better players automatically even stronger not just by skill but by bigger numbers they have equipped, also a lot of heroes, so you need to spend a lot more time to know what they can do.

So to conclude: moba type games for me are probably the worst kind of pvp games and gw2 even at its current state with all the lacking modes, maps, etc. is a LOT better and I enjoy it more.

Obviously, the game mode in gw2 needs to be made more interesting as it creates a boring meta of tanks and split builds and mesmer portaling.

Players cannot play what they want to be competitive.

Also, the pvp music is some of the worse I’ve heard.

Sylosi.6503:

Have you played LoL or HoN?
…

I also think you left something off enjoyability, the actual feeling of combat, I generally find 3d combat much more engaging to actually play than 2d point and click with a very limited number of skills, the actual combat is dull.

To the question, the answer is no. (Those are Dota-like games, which I’ve never played previously). Given that I’ve watched at least a youtube video for each game (before I even try to play them), I honestly think that Dota2 is easier for getting into (which is elaborated in a previous post).

And, right, the combat design for GW2 evokes a better feeling of being in the action than Dota2. In the context of MMOs and online gaming, I haven’t really cared too much about it lately though; I think I cared much more for it when I was in my teens. Don’t get me wrong though, as I do consider it a plus (albeit not a whole lot in comparison to the other points).

I would like GW2 to get me to consider and think about more things, and one way to do it is as Rieselle says, quoted below:

… And risk-reward, if you perform powerful actions it should leave you more vulnerable to punishment…

Phira.3970:

Obviously, the game mode in gw2 needs to be made more interesting as it creates a boring meta of tanks and split builds and mesmer portaling.

Players cannot play what they want to be competitive.

Also, the pvp music is some of the worse I’ve heard.

Yea i agreed, and actually i don’t mind tanks if it were 3 v 3 TDM, but the game mode forces people to go bunker and mesmer. I believe that with different game mode people can go different build and practice with their favorite build.

My suggestion would be :
– Give better rewards in spvp.
– More game modes ( team deathmatch, capture the flag, etc).
– More class balance so that other classes can get the same treatment like guardian/mesmer in spvp.
- matchmaking system.

those changes would bring in new/old players back to play

Rieselle.5079:

and some sort of tradeoff between offense vs. defence.

This.
I believe it is the most important part of competitive PvP.
It can be achieved via the increase of control capabilities of every class, so that they will have choice, use their control abilities to kill that one annoying enemy, or save them to keep themselves and their allies alive later.