Opinions on upcoming rtl change
Even though I agree with the changes, I can understand why mesmers are complaining. Eles on the other hand, I don’t get it. I thought most of them realized that their survivability and combined offensive capability was OP.
Bottom line: The bunker builds are the ones that are considered overpowered, and the change to RtL doesn’t affect bunkers much (because they can facetank damage), but severely reduces the survivability of non-bunkers (because they can’t facetank damage).
It’s not necessarily the end of days for non-bunkers, but they were in a bad place before, and it sure doesn’t promote build diversity.
how does it reduce their survivability? are you escaping from the same fight with RTL twice in 20 seconds? You only need one RTL to disengage if played properly.
You mean escaping twice in 40 seconds? Well, like I said, I like to run Berserker’s scepter/dagger, so yes, in open field combat disengaging frequently is essential. Granted, it doesn’t matter as much in SPvP because there are generally ample opportunities to break line-of-sight, but in WvW the change to RtL could potentially be a spec-breaker.
… Also, in WvW, the warrior has some of the best combat mobility, best sustain, best team fight support, best spike damage, mulitple ways to disengages, aoe instant rez, aoe cleanses and heals.
WvW is a different animal than s/tpvp. I get it. I just hate it that balancing is based on s/tpvp which is a tiny portion of the population and no consideration is given to PvE and WvW.
So you are talking about balancing a game mode where scrubs run around in one, two and three-stat gears of varying rarity, in groups of various sizes ranging from soloers to massive zergs, with different actual character levels, on maps the size of all the hotjoin servers combined AND complaining that balance is based on pvp (WvW is no pvp, it’s a hybrid mode), while us pvpers could have gotten balance changes weekly if devs didn’t have to consider fractal junkies and wvw zerglings while doing those changes.
Stahp… breathe…think…think again…don’t forget the breathe part… get it?
EDIT: Oh, and by the way, do you all still think this change is about ele? It’s as much, if not more about thieves and warriors. Anet needed to boost thief mobility (since they’re taking their damage) and warrior mobility (since they need it desperately) while also bringing down elementalist overall (since they were too hard to kill while doing other stuff well enough). This is about thieves getting to shine as roamers more and warriors being less kite-able, while also preventing eles from escaping with low HP to heal back up. The alternative to this change would have been increase in range and decrease in cost of other classes’ mobility skills, but that’d be just crazy. Would you like to see a thief infiltrator arrow from one point to another, or warrior finishing you off with whirlwind just as your RTL ended?
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(edited by Silferas.3841)
in WvW, the warrior has some of the best combat mobility, best sustain, best team fight support, best spike damage, mulitple ways to disengages, aoe instant rez, aoe cleanses and heals.
WvW is a different animal than s/tpvp. I get it. I just hate it that balancing is based on s/tpvp which is a tiny portion of the population and no consideration is given to PvE and WvW.
WvsW is fine the way it is because noone cares about balance there, there’s no balance in wvsw, it’s already terribly umbalanced due to gear, levels, zergs…and zergs and zergs..and btw this is spvp forum and noone gives a single kitten bout stupid wvsw here…try to complain on wvsw forum, but i don’t think it would be an important thread anyway…until random ppl can zerg around faceroling other random ppl like chickens it’s ok, wvsw doesn’t need skills so it doesn’t need to be so balanced…who has the best gear/biggest zerg only matters…no skill or single class balance needed thet’s why wvsw is paired with pve and pvp is on a totally different area of the game..
I have some hardcore wvw players on my friends list they are all either unlisted or really low rank on leader board. that’s why they do wvw
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even with nerf ele can still disengage from any fight they want
As people already pointed out ..basically yeah
The only thing that just got much harder is engaging and catching up .
If i use it from 1,201 range to engage it will go in full cd cause no one in his right mind will let me hit.So while i tried to engage with it i was punished..
Dont fool yourself the 20 sec cooldown will only work if you use it in close range or point blank for extra damage..this change does nothing sensible to fix the problem
then don’t use it from 1201 range? Every other skill with the exception of bows has this issue. I presume the indicator on the button will work so you’ll know if you’re in range or not.
Oh, and by the way, do you all still think this change is about ele? It’s as much, if not more about thieves and warriors. Anet needed to boost thief mobility (since they’re taking their damage) and warrior mobility (since they need it desperately) while also bringing down elementalist overall (since they were too hard to kill while doing other stuff well enough). This is about thieves getting to shine as roamers more and warriors being less kite-able, while also preventing eles from escaping with low HP to heal back up. The alternative to this change would have been increase in range and decrease in cost of other classes’ mobility skills, but that’d be just crazy. Would you like to see a thief infiltrator arrow from one point to another, or warrior finishing you off with whirlwind just as your RTL ended?
Thieves, rangers, and warriors were already more mobile than ele WHEN OUT OF COMBAT. This will be even more true when RtL’s range is reduced. You spend a lot more time travelling out of combat in game modes outside of sPvP, which is why people want this balance change to be sPvP only.
There is no question that A.net should balance sPvP above all other game modes. sPvP is where the competitive play is (or will be . . . hopefully). But if a balance change only helps sPvP gameplay, it should not be imported into the other game modes. The RtL change is only good for sPvP. It’s horrible for PvE and WvW, where a good portion of your time is simply spent auto-running around the map. Thus, the change should be limited to sPvP. This is why some people have been talking about PvE and WvW — not because they think GW2 should be balanced around those two game modes, but because they think balance changes made in sPvP should stay in sPvP unless they also help the other game modes.
(edited by ResJudicator.7916)
Thieves, rangers, and warriors were already more mobile than ele WHEN OUT OF COMBAT. This will be even more true when RtL’s range is reduced. You spend a lot more time travelling out of combat in game modes outside of sPvP, which is why people want this balance change to be sPvP only.
Some classes are more mobile, others are less. Elem will still remain more mobile than the mesmer, engineer, necromancer and guardian.
Is it that strange that the melee classes that need gap closers have more mobility out of combat than the others?
in WvW, the warrior has some of the best combat mobility, best sustain, best team fight support, best spike damage, mulitple ways to disengages, aoe instant rez, aoe cleanses and heals.
WvW is a different animal than s/tpvp. I get it. I just hate it that balancing is based on s/tpvp which is a tiny portion of the population and no consideration is given to PvE and WvW.
WvsW is fine the way it is because noone cares about balance there, there’s no balance in wvsw, it’s already terribly umbalanced due to gear, levels, zergs…and zergs and zergs..and btw this is spvp forum and noone gives a single kitten bout stupid wvsw here…try to complain on wvsw forum, but i don’t think it would be an important thread anyway…until random ppl can zerg around faceroling other random ppl like chickens it’s ok, wvsw doesn’t need skills so it doesn’t need to be so balanced…who has the best gear/biggest zerg only matters…no skill or single class balance needed thet’s why wvsw is paired with pve and pvp is on a totally different area of the game..
“PvP is on a totally different area of the game…”
They should keep it that way not sure why it is impacting PvE and WvW.
… Also, in WvW, the warrior has some of the best combat mobility, best sustain, best team fight support, best spike damage, mulitple ways to disengages, aoe instant rez, aoe cleanses and heals.
WvW is a different animal than s/tpvp. I get it. I just hate it that balancing is based on s/tpvp which is a tiny portion of the population and no consideration is given to PvE and WvW.
So you are talking about balancing a game mode where scrubs run around in one, two and three-stat gears of varying rarity, in groups of various sizes ranging from soloers to massive zergs, with different actual character levels, on maps the size of all the hotjoin servers combined AND complaining that balance is based on pvp (WvW is no pvp, it’s a hybrid mode), while us pvpers could have gotten balance changes weekly if devs didn’t have to consider fractal junkies and wvw zerglings while doing those changes.
Stahp… breathe…think…think again…don’t forget the breathe part… get it?
EDIT: Oh, and by the way, do you all still think this change is about ele? It’s as much, if not more about thieves and warriors. Anet needed to boost thief mobility (since they’re taking their damage) and warrior mobility (since they need it desperately) while also bringing down elementalist overall (since they were too hard to kill while doing other stuff well enough). This is about thieves getting to shine as roamers more and warriors being less kite-able, while also preventing eles from escaping with low HP to heal back up. The alternative to this change would have been increase in range and decrease in cost of other classes’ mobility skills, but that’d be just crazy. Would you like to see a thief infiltrator arrow from one point to another, or warrior finishing you off with whirlwind just as your RTL ended?
I’m complaining that balancing is based on a kittenty/dying game mode. If s/tpvp is booming place for competitive 1v1, 5v5, 10vs10, and GvG, I’m all about balancing based on it. But it’s not. It is in the kittenter, so why should I care? I don’t care but you paid for the game too so you should be entitled to whatever game mode you pick. We’re all paying customers so at least they should give some consideration to all 3 different game mode. Is that too much to ask for?
@MIrra
1) ever since the good stuff started coming (mmr, matchmaking, leaderboards, now custom arenas) pvp has been growing more and more (at least EU), so calling something that is JUST STARTING to thrive dead, is a big oversight.
2) pvp forum, pvp discussion. If you don’t expect people in the pvp forum to reply to your posts from the pvp perspective, there is something amiss with you.
3) judging by your reply, you must be a gw1 veteran. We will never agree on what good pvp is, because I kittening hated gw1. E-sports doesn’t need 1v1, 10v10 or GvG, e-sports needs one balanced game mode that is interesting to watch and fun to play. Anet is doing good job on that part with the newer maps, although they do need balancing. If you want to run around in a 10 man zerg, go back to WvW where you belong, there you will find the game modes that you want combined.
4) Yes, we are all paying customers and they do give all 3 game modes consideration, that’s why we pvp players have to wait for balance updates for a whole month.
5) I don’t care how RTL works outside of pvp. Go ask devs on WvW forums or class discussion forums for a change. However if you keep defending ele mobility on pvp forums, expect people to show little understanding of your cause.
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Thieves, rangers, and warriors were already more mobile than ele WHEN OUT OF COMBAT. This will be even more true when RtL’s range is reduced. You spend a lot more time travelling out of combat in game modes outside of sPvP, which is why people want this balance change to be sPvP only.
Is it that strange that the melee classes that need gap closers have more mobility out of combat than the others?
You’re saying that Ele should have less out-of-combat mobility than warrior, ranger, and thief because these other classes need gap closers to get into melee range when they are in combat. I disagree with this sentiment for two reasons.
First, in-combat mobility should be balanced separately from out-of-combat mobility because the two deal with very different purposes. The purpose of in-combat mobility is to either kite/disengage or to avoid being kited. The purpose of out-of-combat mobility in tPv kitten o that you can be a better roamer. (And the purpose of out-of-combat mobility in other game modes is to prevent player boredom). Just because a skill can be used to enhance both your in-combat and out-of-combat mobility doesn’t mean we should conflate these two concepts.
However, I agree that bunker Eles in tPvP could use a nerf to both their roaming capacity and their kiting/disengaging ability. But they don’t need a nerf to their roaming capacity in WvW (because Ele bunkers don’t do anything in WvW) or PvE (because roaming is not an issue in PvE). Which is why I keep saying that the RtL change should be limited to tPvP.
Second, your factual premise is flawed. D/D ele is about as melee of a class as warrior, ranger, and thief, especially if you factor in the latter three classes’ ability to have a ranged weapon in their secondary weapon set. Following this change, Ele will have the most punishing gap closers. Magnetic grasp is easy to dodge just by strafing, and dodging RtL will (presumably) put it on its full 40 second CD. This leaves burning speed, which has the shortest range of any gap closer and is also your only source of burst, so if you use it to close distance outside of its range, then you lose out on your burst for 15 seconds.
In contrast, warriors, rangers, and thieves have slightly superior gap closers — which is PERFECTLY OK given the different ways that their classes play. However, it is inaccurate to say that ele doesn’t need gap closers.