Guild Wars 2

Now let me start by saying that the “new” system of rating being determined by a numerical gain/loss dependent on the outcome of the match is a definite improvement over the old system of pip gain/loss determining your rank at the end of a match. I won’t go into detail why because I think the opinion on this is fairly unanimous.

However, there is an extremely unhealthy climate in PvP, in particular in the higher ratings of Pvp that should really be discussed. For most people in the top 50 or so players, this has been an elephant in the room for several seasons, but the overly punishing nature of losses is hugely impactful on the effectiveness of matchmaking.
Highly rated players will coordinate, sometimes knowingly, sometimes unknowingly, when they Q as to avoid getting matched against one another and risking a loss. When they can, they will do this in off hours (Hence W/L ratios of 10:1 which is an absurd ratio if you have a matchmaking system Q-ing you against players of equal skill level in a 5v5 match no less where you should have ~20% contribution for your team to win on an equal playing field).
Top level players will Q around eachother effectively creating a vaccum to pull up gold/low plat players into legend rated games and effectively greatly increase their chances to win and carry their own team to victory, especially in a duo Q setting.

Top rated players are in that position in no small part thanks to abusing this sort of strategy. It’s the metagame of pvp. Dodging those who provide you with the most competition and instead preying on those who you really should have no business playing against.
I know numerical player base is a big factor in this, and if you double or tripled the population of pvp this issue MAY solve itself apart from off hours. But the fact remains that the metagame of pvp is in fact not in skill level or builds, but in avoiding actual competition and good games in favor of boosting your rating.
And this is all due to the overly punishing nature of losses. If two duo q-ed teams of top 25 players are matched against one another, the resultant win may grant 5-9 rating. The losing team will lose anywhere from 15-25, despite no massive favor to win or lose to either team. That means the losing team may have to win up to FIVE games in a row to make up for this singular loss against a fairly equal opponent.
It is really no wonder why players play the system to the degree they do. If matched against equal players, no one would have the ability to climb. A good player vs another good player will find it extraordinarily difficult to win at a 5:1 or 6:1 rate which is what they would need to climb in rating even incrementally.

I understand the need to make losses punishing and make climbing difficult, but this is far to extreme and forces players into nasty habits of playing around with the system rather than outplaying eachother in good pvp matches.

I am not making a ridiculous request to punish these players but rather to address the flawed system that ENCOURAGES and in fact necessitates this sort of play to climb rating.
I am not offering some sort of solution to this problem, and I know that anet doesn’t play much of their competitive game mode, but please at least understand the nasty habits that the current system has developed.

Thanks so much for reading, and sorry it was so wordy.

Tl;dr
the overly punishing nature of losses is having a hugely negative effect on matchmaking and the overall quality of matches especially at high level play.

Because this ended up so long, probably read the Tl;dr and then if you are at all interested in the reasoning you can give the rest of it a look.

While I’ll agree with you here. However this would not even been a problem. If the match maker system actually worked properly in this game. I’ll let you in on a little secret.

When match maker don’t provide decent match ups to begin with. People that care about climbing have to rely on things as such. In order to stay competitive with others doing the same. Instead of MM stacking teams. It should equally distribute skill on both teams.

This will provide the groundwork for a competitive PvP environment. Thus the groundwork toward breeding a competitive PvP community to fit the environment.

Also alot of the blame should be put on the fact. ANet does not punishes infamous Ranked PvP match, AFKers, and Ragers, and Thrower trolls. Thus completely eradicating any chance in the world, for progress towards the goal. Of providing a fun, productive, and competitive PvP environment, and community. Leaving the Ranked PvP mode to completely stagnate, or even completely decline to non sustainable levels, without the emplacement of high value PvE rewards.

Which brings us full circle. To the point no one cares about anything other then PvE rewards. Which can still be gained by simi-AFKing matches. Creating a unwelcoming PvP environment for actual competitive PvPers. Thus enforces this type of absolute out of match META.

TL/DR This is also a issue created by a very underwhelming match maker system.

The reason they get punished for losses is they aren’t playing people of their skill level. if the average MMR of the team you play is lower than your MMR you will lose more points than you can get for a win.

This is partly due to matchmaking, but it is also due to people queue dodging people at or above their ability level.

Have the amount of rank points for a loss depend on the score: close match = minimal loss, blowout = large loss of points to discourage players giving up after the first fight.

Invalidate 4v5 and return us to the lobby with a major penalty to the d/c

Do not “expand” the matchmaking tolerance until like 5+ minutes of queue time

There I fixed matchmaking for you

Faux Play.6104:

The reason they get punished for losses is they aren’t playing people of their skill level. if the average MMR of the team you play is lower than your MMR you will lose more points than you can get for a win.

This is partly due to matchmaking, but it is also due to people queue dodging people at or above their ability level.

Losses when matched against a team of an equal averaged MMR are far far more punishing than a win against the same team at high ratings. What you are talking about has definitely been the intent and design in the past as far as I know, but it isn’t currently implemented well.

edited for an example (note this is not an isolated incident i am describing)
A duo queued team of 2 people in ~top 25 with 3 plat players on their team pitted against two duos in top 25 with 1 plat on their team play against one another.

Either team wins they will get 5-9 rating. Either team loses they will end up with typically a -15(at least) loss. FAIRLY equivalent matchmaking, maybe weighted slightly in the 4 legendary players favor, but the point distribution will be nearly identical regardless of outcome, and the loss, one way or the other, will result in a massive (3 fold +) deficit.

vorpal.1497:

Have the amount of rank points for a loss depend on the score: close match = minimal loss, blowout = large loss of points to discourage players giving up after the first fight.

Invalidate 4v5 and return us to the lobby with a major penalty to the d/c

Do not “expand” the matchmaking tolerance until like 5+ minutes of queue time

There I fixed matchmaking for you

Except when we’re being punished for facing people far outside our skill range and having a blowout. I’m in low Plat, I played a game against a duo legend group yesterday, lost 500 – 84, and lost 18 points. What kittening sense does that make?

The whole system is kittened from matchmaking to the rating system, and ArenaNet isn’t going to do kitten about it. They abandoned sPvP long ago.

Helbjorne.9368:

vorpal.1497:

Have the amount of rank points for a loss depend on the score: close match = minimal loss, blowout = large loss of points to discourage players giving up after the first fight.

Invalidate 4v5 and return us to the lobby with a major penalty to the d/c

Do not “expand” the matchmaking tolerance until like 5+ minutes of queue time

There I fixed matchmaking for you

Except when we’re being punished for facing people far outside our skill range and having a blowout. I’m in low Plat, I played a game against a duo legend group yesterday, lost 500 – 84, and lost 18 points. What kittening sense does that make?

The whole system is kittened from matchmaking to the rating system, and ArenaNet isn’t going to do kitten about it. They abandoned sPvP long ago.

They definitely didn’t abandon the game mode. They try and add rewards and stuff to make it more appealing to people, and even added ATs recently (although that’s a bit of a bag of worms in itself).
The point i am trying to make, they are definitely putting effort in to improve the game mode, I just don’t think they have enough folks on the team who really play PvP enough to pick up on some of the more nuanced but still extremely impactful problems.

Helbjorne.9368:

vorpal.1497:

Have the amount of rank points for a loss depend on the score: close match = minimal loss, blowout = large loss of points to discourage players giving up after the first fight.

Invalidate 4v5 and return us to the lobby with a major penalty to the d/c

Do not “expand” the matchmaking tolerance until like 5+ minutes of queue time

There I fixed matchmaking for you

Except when we’re being punished for facing people far outside our skill range and having a blowout. I’m in low Plat, I played a game against a duo legend group yesterday, lost 500 – 84, and lost 18 points. What kittening sense does that make?

The whole system is kittened from matchmaking to the rating system, and ArenaNet isn’t going to do kitten about it. They abandoned sPvP long ago.

The duo legend issue is tied to the way the matchmaker expands its low rank tolerance after like 30 seconds.

Freedj.8650:

They definitely didn’t abandon the game mode. They try and add rewards and stuff to make it more appealing to people, and even added ATs recently (although that’s a bit of a bag of worms in itself).
The point i am trying to make, they are definitely putting effort in to improve the game mode, I just don’t think they have enough folks on the team who really play PvP enough to pick up on some of the more nuanced but still extremely impactful problems.

When I said abandoned I meant no longer putting any developmental effort into it. Adding incentives to try to entice people into playing sPvP isn’t the same as addressing core issues such as matchmaking, balancing, or adding new content such as new maps, game modes, etc.

I mean kitten, it’s been 5 years and still no death match? No capture the flag? Stronghold was a flop. The strategy for each conquest map is the exact same, regardless of whatever other mechanics they added, and has lead to this garbage bunker meta. It’s just poor decision after poor decision filled with self-fulfilling prophecies.

vorpal.1497:

The duo legend issue is tied to the way the matchmaker expands its low rank tolerance after like 30 seconds.

Oh okay, I wasn’t aware of that, thank you!

Helbjorne.9368:

Freedj.8650:

They definitely didn’t abandon the game mode. They try and add rewards and stuff to make it more appealing to people, and even added ATs recently (although that’s a bit of a bag of worms in itself).
The point i am trying to make, they are definitely putting effort in to improve the game mode, I just don’t think they have enough folks on the team who really play PvP enough to pick up on some of the more nuanced but still extremely impactful problems.

When I said abandoned I meant not longer putting any developmental effort into it. Adding incentives to try to entice people into playing sPvP isn’t the same as addressing core issues such as matchmaking, balancing, or adding new content (such as new maps, game modes, etc.).

I mean kitten, it’s been 5 years and still no death match? No capture the flag? Stronghold was a flop. The strategy for each conquest map is the exact same, regardless of whatever other mechanics they added, and has lead to this garbage bunker meta. It’s just poor decision after poor decision filled with self-fulfilling prophecies.

I half agree with you at best. They’ve revamped khylo, they’ve added capricorn, they’ve added coliseum, both new maps I think are really good. But i do agree that rewards are not enough, but ATs I think were a great idea that they sort of… shot themselves in the foot over already.
but regardless, the point of this post is to try and help them address problems with matchmaking, one of the unaddressed things that you listed. I know it’s probably a difficult thing to fine tune, especially with all the irrational rage-posting after a loss by people in regards to matchmaking.
The point of this was to provide a thought out description of something that is certainly endemic in at least high level pvp to help the devs root out the problem which causes a looooot of unhealthy and unfun behavior by players for the game mode. I definitely don’t think they abandoned the game mode. I do agree that some things need work, and although i don’t have solutions for them, i do think that the root of the problem is the overwhelming cost of a loss compared to the gain from a win at high levels.
I unfortunately can’t speak much to the problem below platinum, so I will trust other players to confirm or deny similar behavior at their respective tiers, but it is doubtless a big problem with matchmaking and just the ‘fun factor’ any match can bring.

Freedj.8650:

Faux Play.6104:

The reason they get punished for losses is they aren’t playing people of their skill level. if the average MMR of the team you play is lower than your MMR you will lose more points than you can get for a win.

This is partly due to matchmaking, but it is also due to people queue dodging people at or above their ability level.

Losses when matched against a team of an equal averaged MMR are far far more punishing than a win against the same team at high ratings. What you are talking about has definitely been the intent and design in the past as far as I know, but it isn’t currently implemented well.

edited for an example (note this is not an isolated incident i am describing)
A duo queued team of 2 people in ~top 25 with 3 plat players on their team pitted against two duos in top 25 with 1 plat on their team play against one another.

Either team wins they will get 5-9 rating. Either team loses they will end up with typically a -15(at least) loss. FAIRLY equivalent matchmaking, maybe weighted slightly in the 4 legendary players favor, but the point distribution will be nearly identical regardless of outcome, and the loss, one way or the other, will result in a massive (3 fold +) deficit.

the problem is the q dodging again, the system for calculating win/loss points uses your mmr againts the rival average mmr and q dodging, off ours playing etc etc makes that even if the rival team are packed with other top duo your mmr is to high compared to average mmr of rivals due to filling teams with players of much less mmr (that drags down teams average mmr), if tops dont try to exploit the system and play in high population hours they will get their matches filled whith top 250 players and their win/loss points will be more compensated

megilandil.7506:

Freedj.8650:

Faux Play.6104:

The reason they get punished for losses is they aren’t playing people of their skill level. if the average MMR of the team you play is lower than your MMR you will lose more points than you can get for a win.

This is partly due to matchmaking, but it is also due to people queue dodging people at or above their ability level.

Losses when matched against a team of an equal averaged MMR are far far more punishing than a win against the same team at high ratings. What you are talking about has definitely been the intent and design in the past as far as I know, but it isn’t currently implemented well.

edited for an example (note this is not an isolated incident i am describing)
A duo queued team of 2 people in ~top 25 with 3 plat players on their team pitted against two duos in top 25 with 1 plat on their team play against one another.

Either team wins they will get 5-9 rating. Either team loses they will end up with typically a -15(at least) loss. FAIRLY equivalent matchmaking, maybe weighted slightly in the 4 legendary players favor, but the point distribution will be nearly identical regardless of outcome, and the loss, one way or the other, will result in a massive (3 fold +) deficit.

the problem is the q dodging again, the system for calculating win/loss points uses your mmr againts the rival average mmr and q dodging, off ours playing etc etc makes that even if the rival team are packed with other top duo your mmr is to high compared to average mmr of rivals due to filling teams with players of much less mmr (that drags down teams average mmr), if tops dont try to exploit the system and play in high population hours they will get their matches filled whith top 250 players and their win/loss points will be more compensated

Even with closely matched MMR ratings between the teams the loss will typically end up with a 3-5 fold greater rating deduction than had the same team won. I’ve seen it dozens of times, and I attribute that to be one of the main incentives for people to engage in q dodging in the first place. I have had 20 point losses against teams where all 5 players are rated higher than myself and 9 point gains in the same scenario. And these are both with several dozen games into the season, so it definitely cannot be attributed to early season mmr adjustment either.

vorpal.1497:

blowout = large loss of points to discourage players giving up after the first fight.

This right here, this is how you kill PvP community. You do realise that in this game blowouts happen way too often and not because people decide to throw a towel? Sometimes you face against players that are so out of your league that they will mop the floor with you despite your best efforts. Even if they are on your personal level and your team is not, they will still make you suffer and watch how slowly you lose. And what? You see a massive rank loss at that? No thank you, I would leave the crap out of this game if that was the deal.
I bet that if Anet did that, that would end up in a horrific decline in pvp community to the point it would be left to itself.

That’s cool, but I would play harder even on matches I knew were losses, if I could mitigate the rank loss.

Freedj.8650:

megilandil.7506:

Freedj.8650:

Faux Play.6104:

The reason they get punished for losses is they aren’t playing people of their skill level. if the average MMR of the team you play is lower than your MMR you will lose more points than you can get for a win.

This is partly due to matchmaking, but it is also due to people queue dodging people at or above their ability level.

Losses when matched against a team of an equal averaged MMR are far far more punishing than a win against the same team at high ratings. What you are talking about has definitely been the intent and design in the past as far as I know, but it isn’t currently implemented well.

edited for an example (note this is not an isolated incident i am describing)
A duo queued team of 2 people in ~top 25 with 3 plat players on their team pitted against two duos in top 25 with 1 plat on their team play against one another.

Either team wins they will get 5-9 rating. Either team loses they will end up with typically a -15(at least) loss. FAIRLY equivalent matchmaking, maybe weighted slightly in the 4 legendary players favor, but the point distribution will be nearly identical regardless of outcome, and the loss, one way or the other, will result in a massive (3 fold +) deficit.

the problem is the q dodging again, the system for calculating win/loss points uses your mmr againts the rival average mmr and q dodging, off ours playing etc etc makes that even if the rival team are packed with other top duo your mmr is to high compared to average mmr of rivals due to filling teams with players of much less mmr (that drags down teams average mmr), if tops dont try to exploit the system and play in high population hours they will get their matches filled whith top 250 players and their win/loss points will be more compensated

Even with closely matched MMR ratings between the teams the loss will typically end up with a 3-5 fold greater rating deduction than had the same team won. I’ve seen it dozens of times, and I attribute that to be one of the main incentives for people to engage in q dodging in the first place. I have had 20 point losses against teams where all 5 players are rated higher than myself and 9 point gains in the same scenario. And these are both with several dozen games into the season, so it definitely cannot be attributed to early season mmr adjustment either.

a little overpunishment for losing in the ones that are on top places is ok, they cant pretend maintain their ranking with a 50% w/l ratio

megilandil.7506:

Freedj.8650:

megilandil.7506:

Freedj.8650:

Faux Play.6104:

The reason they get punished for losses is they aren’t playing people of their skill level. if the average MMR of the team you play is lower than your MMR you will lose more points than you can get for a win.

This is partly due to matchmaking, but it is also due to people queue dodging people at or above their ability level.

Losses when matched against a team of an equal averaged MMR are far far more punishing than a win against the same team at high ratings. What you are talking about has definitely been the intent and design in the past as far as I know, but it isn’t currently implemented well.

edited for an example (note this is not an isolated incident i am describing)
A duo queued team of 2 people in ~top 25 with 3 plat players on their team pitted against two duos in top 25 with 1 plat on their team play against one another.

Either team wins they will get 5-9 rating. Either team loses they will end up with typically a -15(at least) loss. FAIRLY equivalent matchmaking, maybe weighted slightly in the 4 legendary players favor, but the point distribution will be nearly identical regardless of outcome, and the loss, one way or the other, will result in a massive (3 fold +) deficit.

the problem is the q dodging again, the system for calculating win/loss points uses your mmr againts the rival average mmr and q dodging, off ours playing etc etc makes that even if the rival team are packed with other top duo your mmr is to high compared to average mmr of rivals due to filling teams with players of much less mmr (that drags down teams average mmr), if tops dont try to exploit the system and play in high population hours they will get their matches filled whith top 250 players and their win/loss points will be more compensated

Even with closely matched MMR ratings between the teams the loss will typically end up with a 3-5 fold greater rating deduction than had the same team won. I’ve seen it dozens of times, and I attribute that to be one of the main incentives for people to engage in q dodging in the first place. I have had 20 point losses against teams where all 5 players are rated higher than myself and 9 point gains in the same scenario. And these are both with several dozen games into the season, so it definitely cannot be attributed to early season mmr adjustment either.

a little overpunishment for losing in the ones that are on top places is ok, they cant pretend maintain their ranking with a 50% w/l ratio

If they are being matched with players of their skill level it is ridiculous to ask them to win 3:1-5:1 consistently for marginal gains. It’s fine for losses to be more punishing than wins, but the insane difference between the gain/loss potential of a match causes players to embrace unhealthy habits like Q-dodging.
That is why most of those players in fact don’t have anywhere near a 50% winrate but more alone the lines of 75% plus because they avoid duoing against other players that would present a threat.