PAX Tourney shows why GW2 is NOT an esport

PAX Tourney shows why GW2 is NOT an esport

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Posted by: Duke.4795

Duke.4795

I enjoy sPvP a decent amount and am pretty knowledgeable about each build/role/playstyle, but I have to say that trying to watch GW2 Pax tourney is a joke. Trying to emphasize GW2 as an esport over implementing additional pvp modes like GvG/HA/etc, is a huge mistake. The overhead view doesn’t make any sense as you can’t really appreciate the plays made by the player, while the player view doesn’t provide enough information about the overall fight. It’s very messy to watch large teamfights.

Secondly, what is there to shoutcast for a GW2 pvp match? Half the time, the shoutcasters were talking about the cow stomp. There was very little strategy and alternative actions discussed, probably because there are so few options to consider. In big esports like LoL/Dota/SC2, there are different openers, resources to manage, player positioning, myriads of strategies and counterplays.

I just hope ANet realizes that promoting a mmorpg as an esport is very difficult (even WoW had a really hard time) and prioritizes player enjoyment.

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Posted by: jamesgrimble.1293

jamesgrimble.1293

I completely agree I just hope this post can get a lot more support so Anet may at least recognise what the community wants.

Grimble x

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Posted by: Knote.2904

Knote.2904

What’s sad is this is such a good example of what’s wrong with the game, and it’s being shoved in their faces, and they still won’t see any problems.

And even if they see people hating on it, they won’t fix it, they’ll just ditch it because “oh I guess people don’t like the awesome pvp we made I guess we’ll stop”, because this is the logic Anet uses and it is incredibly sad, this game just………. makes me lose hope.

Oh yeah… and “Our focus right now is making a game type that is easy to watch and understand. That is one of the things we have accomplished so far and we want to keep that concept”.

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Posted by: Siphaed.9235

Siphaed.9235

I completely disagree with your post, Duke. The point is to make viewing it ENTERTAINING.

Watching a football game is about the entertainment, not trying to deduce the base stats of players, their weight, the trajectory of the ball, the plays, the coach’s words, and so on. That’s just CRAZY!

Most people watch for the entertainment value of it, and these shoutcasters of this current tournament (still going on at this post) is entertaining. No reason to see individual numbers flying, stats and UI cluttering up the actual content: THE FIGHT! From the player-view camera, you can see the actual fight, and it’s entertaining to watch.

The only thing of your post I can agree with is that the overhead map cameras needs a better view.

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Posted by: ahuba.6430

ahuba.6430

Mod jon_peters: you have to actively react to all the passive things going on
Mod jon_peters: so its still very reactionary and there is still a LOT of skill in spirit ranger

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Posted by: Knote.2904

Knote.2904

I completely disagree with your post, Duke. The point is to make viewing it ENTERTAINING.

Watching a football game is about the entertainment, not trying to deduce the base stats of players, their weight, the trajectory of the ball, the plays, the coach’s words, and so on. That’s just CRAZY!

Most people watch for the entertainment value of it, and these shoutcasters of this current tournament (still going on at this post) is entertaining. No reason to see individual numbers flying, stats and UI cluttering up the actual content: THE FIGHT! From the player-view camera, you can see the actual fight, and it’s entertaining to watch.

The only thing of your post I can agree with is that the overhead map cameras needs a better view.

Let’s take a football game people enjoy, then set off a ton of fireworks during the entire game, and increase the amount of players on field by 5.

Is it still fun or even possible to watch?

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Posted by: Duke.4795

Duke.4795

Siphaed, I understand what you mean by having entertainment value, but can you really be entertained if you can’t see/understand what’s going on? When viewing from the perspective of the player, esp. in 1v1 fights, it is very enjoyable to watch, but overhead is a complete mess. At the end of a teamfight, I know the point was captured, but I don’t know how/why it got that way. Did the necro draw all the conditions on his teammate and then transfer it to the bunker or did he corrupt his boons? Did the engi/ele’s water blast finisher play a large role in keeping up the team? It’s hard to enjoy the outcome if the play-by-plays are very hazy.

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Posted by: Yaki.9563

Yaki.9563

No MMO is good for esport. Not a GW2-specific issue.

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Posted by: Knote.2904

Knote.2904

No MMO is good for esport. Not a GW2-specific issue.

Just because there hasn’t been a good one yet doesn’t mean an MMO can’t be an esports.

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Posted by: Locuz.2651

Locuz.2651

The biggest issue is that it is hard to follow what is going on. Two of GW2 key features really work against this:

- The graphical style is not really suitable for competetive play. Especially if you consider that most players who play at competetive level play on low settings to cranck up their FPS as high as possible (which isnt really an issue for cartoony games).

- The lack of UI features that show whats going on. I know its one of things devs are proud of “reading the game and not the UI” but its working against them from an Esport PoV. People are zoomed out completely to have an overview of a fight, so UI features are the only thing viewers can rely on.

On top of those two you have a meta with a lot of aoe clutter and spirits, which doesnt help.

And dont get me started about proper balance between risk and reward (hard hitting/high impact attacks should be designed in a way that they require more setup/have a bigger casttime).

(edited by Locuz.2651)

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Posted by: Brutal Arts.6307

Brutal Arts.6307

Mod jon_peters: you have to actively react to all the passive things going on
Mod jon_peters: so its still very reactionary and there is still a LOT of skill in spirit ranger

Hahaha. No seriously, this must have been sarcasm. No one can be in this much denial.

You have gotten what you paid for, all that remains is biweekly gemshop pushing.

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Posted by: Substance E.4852

Substance E.4852

No MMO is good for esport. Not a GW2-specific issue.

Just because there hasn’t been a good one yet doesn’t mean an MMO can’t be an esports.

Epsorts need some modicum of balance. Balance isn’t something mmo’s have ever been known for.

Connection error(s) detected. Retrying…

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Posted by: JemL.3501

JemL.3501

no way gw2 would be an esport, no way…nooooooooooooooooooo way.

I took an arrow to the knee

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Posted by: Xillllix.3485

Xillllix.3485

just put 8 eles against 8 eles and you’ll have a eSport.

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Posted by: Viking Jorun.5413

Viking Jorun.5413

Let’s all take the time to watch the old video about two little guilds: Team Legacy and Team Paradigm.

This is what sPvP should be.

~Ferrum Blacktide, former member of Team Legacy.

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Posted by: katniss.6735

katniss.6735

I wasn’t at PAX, and didn’t see the top-down view of matches, but I feel that the spectator mode we have in-game now is enjoyable, and maybe they should have used that in their presentation.

You can mouse over each skill if you’re not familiar with the class, and view gear. You can watch, immediately, which skills they use to counter plays made by other characters. You can pan the camera to view what you want as apposed to what the player is looking at. You can view a close-up of the node on it’s own.

If you want spvp as an esport, I don’t see the big deal. I would hope it would just be for teams and not solo queues, though, because that’s a total mess, barely a step up from quick-join. I mean, stop putting rank 1s in with 20s and 50s.

From a balance stand-point, that jumps from each major patch. Where you felt secure with your class at one moment, you’re not longer enjoying it vs what the other class(es) now have. I don’t think GW2 is ready for competitive showcasing in it’s current mold.

Server: Maguuma – Leafy Lass – Elementalist (WvW)
Guild: Bill Murray [Bill]/ [DERP]
twitch.tv/mlgw2

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Posted by: Lafiel.9372

Lafiel.9372

Very good points by this post, I knew from a start what differed in gw2 than other successful esport games like dota 2 or LoL. It’s just not as single player focused. It’s hard to have a significant advantage over another player if you’re vsing 2-3 and since there is no level or gear progression throughout, it comes down to a complete team effort. A single player death will not cause a drastic change in the game and the whole game is basically people working together to cap points. w Unfortunately, anet is greedy as it is and they’re only going to keep trying but only make it worst.

If they focused on GvG as an esport it probably would have worked better. Good scouting by a guild member or the a surprise attack effectively used would be a lot more interesting. Though with the current servers commanders, it may just end up to be boring straight to the point try zerg their way in style. Though even then, zerg vs zerg may still be more interesting…

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Posted by: TwoBit.5903

TwoBit.5903

Oh yeah… and “Our focus right now is making a game type that is easy to watch and understand. That is one of the things we have accomplished so far and we want to keep that concept”.

What. They have not accomplished that, not by a long shot. You’d probably would have an easier time trying to learn ancient Cantonese than whatever the hell is going on in an sPvP fight.

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Posted by: katniss.6735

katniss.6735

Let’s all take the time to watch the old video about two little guilds: Team Legacy and Team Paradigm.

This is what sPvP should be.

~Ferrum Blacktide, former member of Team Legacy.

Just watched this. Thanks for link. Enjoyed it.

Server: Maguuma – Leafy Lass – Elementalist (WvW)
Guild: Bill Murray [Bill]/ [DERP]
twitch.tv/mlgw2

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Posted by: Viking Jorun.5413

Viking Jorun.5413

Oh yeah… and “Our focus right now is making a game type that is easy to watch and understand. That is one of the things we have accomplished so far and we want to keep that concept”.

What. They have not accomplished that, not by a long shot. You’d probably would have an easier time trying to learn ancient Cantonese than whatever the hell is going on in an sPvP fight.

It’s not about breaking down what’s going on. Do you watch NASCAR to keep tabs on who’s doing what at all times? Do you watch football to know every play and what the coach is yelling about? Do you watch Paintball to see who’s got the best gear? No. You watch them because they’re entertaining. That’s the goal of it all.

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Posted by: TwoBit.5903

TwoBit.5903

I see. So NASCAR is the epitome of eSports. Players don’t watch for the strategy or artistry of play, but for the flashy explosions and accidents I’ll go forward that to the Riot development team. They’ve had it wrong all this time! The numbers clearly indicate that GW2 is the superior spectator sport. Oh wait…

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Posted by: katniss.6735

katniss.6735

No MMO is good for esport. Not a GW2-specific issue.

I personally enjoy watching solo and team spvp, wvw, and gvg matches in this game, just as I enjoyed watching them in WoW when I played that. I sometimes still watch WoW pvp videos. Like with WoW arenas, tpvp are asides from the MMO itself that don’t interact, other than entering from the MMO world, so I don’t see what your point is here. The game as a whole is not an esport. The pvp in it is going that direction, because people are getting better and better. There are talented guilds that get high views whenever they play. People want to beat them. They want to be the best and have everyone know, so that they keep getting challenged. That’s fun. That entices players to this game. That’s what we all want.

Server: Maguuma – Leafy Lass – Elementalist (WvW)
Guild: Bill Murray [Bill]/ [DERP]
twitch.tv/mlgw2

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Posted by: zeromius.1604

zeromius.1604

Maybe it would be more exciting if there were was no respawning like in the first Guild Wars. The only way you’d come back is if your teammates revived you. That way people could actually camp your corpse if doing so was to their advantage. The reason it would be more exciting is because each death would have a much bigger impact. When you actually take someone down it would be a big deal and you might hear a big cheer from the crowd. What they should avoid doing though is going into multi-kill announcements. We don’t want the focus to be given solely to kills and not on the objectives. They’re already saying <player name> is dominating so that should be enough.

(edited by zeromius.1604)

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Posted by: Essence Snow.3194

Essence Snow.3194

Let’s all take the time to watch the old video about two little guilds: Team Legacy and Team Paradigm.

This is what sPvP should be.

~Ferrum Blacktide, former member of Team Legacy.

Here’s my issue with this……given a commentary..that could be any close hot join match and have the exact same appeal to most viewers. 10 to 1 odds they would not be able to tell the difference between a lucky play vs a skilled play w/o some commentary telling them such.

Without a large pool of interested players namely based from “fun” gameplay, there simply won’t be enough that can tell or care to tell the difference. Thus it won’t matter for most.

Serenity now~Insanity later

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Posted by: Sollith.3502

Sollith.3502

I think one of the biggest drawbacks to the pvp at the moment is in the combat, but not necessarily on the numbers side of things, but rather on the visual side. One thing they have always stated about GW2 is that they want you to “watch the game, not the UI,” which they fail pretty kitten in my opinion. This is mainly because of the lack of proper telegraphing of skills built into the animations.

Players just end up spamming the skills, because there is not much to really react to and that not only just makes the pvp messed up for the players, but also halts any potential in GW2 could have as an esport, and it can just confuse the viewers even more so. This is one thing they need should get on this asap if they want pvp to take off.

As an example I personally have always loved DragonNest’s pvp because I always loved the telegraphy they build into the skills. You can generally see and react to things at a very fast paced combat speed as well as understand enough to tell whats going on as a viewer most of the time to get the general picture (two things stop it from being popular imo; one it’s a bit too much on the cartoony side for some people, and two it’s hosted by nexderp =_=’ ). Not the best example, because I was not that high tier of a pvper, but here’s DN’s version of a VIP match type (starts a little into the first round:

The ones in the roman-esque helmets are the captains (changes each round; kill the enemy captain first to win the round (like I said VIP lol)).

The key thing I want to make a point of with that vid, is that you can see the skills go off when a player uses them, and there is often a good visual cue on the kind of attack a player is using (whether it’s a big strong or high utility attack; ex. the purple homing arrows that I use, or the charged arrow shot… or a weak “poke” attack).

There also isn’t a huge UI blocking the screen either (as it would also be pointless, considering everything is about reading visual cues in DN).

Bringing it back to GW2; having proper animations that cue players (and to another extent, viewers) in on when an attack is happening, whether it’s a bigger harder hitting attack or a lesser “poking” or probing attack is definitely something they need to work on and would go a long way in improving the games pvp if they still want to pursue an “action-oriented” combat system where players are acting based on visuals rather than essentially text and bars.

There are other things that would definitely need working on, but I believe that working on the combat telegraphing would put GW2’s pvp a big step forward.

The other thing would be working on aoe clutter and the spirit/clone clutter. Both of these combined can just create way too much chaos on screen for not only any potential “esport” viewership, but also is irritating for the players as it just feels like… spam.

Maybe limit the number of spirits and clones a player can have out at a time? Something like maybe one spirit; not sure what would be a good number for mes clones though… =_=’ well details are up to anet to test lol…

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Posted by: Azzer.8137

Azzer.8137

Mod jon_peters: you have to actively react to all the passive things going on
Mod jon_peters: so its still very reactionary and there is still a LOT of skill in spirit ranger

Hahaha, spirit rangers are easy to kill and counter unless ofcourse you are really really really stupid, good played spirit rangers do give problems and bad ones are so easily killed so yeah skill is still important for this even though you for some reason don’t think it is, only thing not requiring skill in PvP is bunker guardians.

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Posted by: Caramel Ham.4891

Caramel Ham.4891

lol ofc Gw2 pvp in its current form cannot and will never be an esport. The current game mode is just so boring……im surprised commentators don’t fall asleep…..

Huttball from SWTOR has a better chance of becoming an esport than this crap lol. At least that game mode was entertaining.

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Posted by: Jordy.1570

Jordy.1570

imo current game modes r lacking. the hole fight mechanic is a mess. in a 3 vs 3 u cant see anything. its jumping and dodging around in a cloud of something. its messed up.