Guild Wars 2

i’m sorry if i offend anybody here but i’m just gonna get down to the point. PVP is now majorly broken and nothing i do can fix it. alot of people (including myself) that have not bought the expansion now cant even play a match with getting majorly destroyed. rangers range on the staff is too long and now they can tank like guardians. guardians can now tank and kill from a distance. you have mesmers who can kill anybody in 2 seconds (as if they weren’t op enough).
now some people are gonna be saying “haha noob just buy the expansion”, BUT some of us like PVP and don’t want to pay $30 or more just to balance the gameplay. anet, i like how you do things, but you need to nerf whatever your giving these players HARD, because you have broken the entire PVP system

you’re absolutely right tbh. The new specs are far stronger than the old. As a non-elite you have a major disadvantage and will not be as strong as an elite spec.

It was kind of to be expected and i understand Anet. You wanna make sure people feel rewarded for buying the new expac so you make sure the new classes are worth playing. How do you do that? Make em stronger than normal core specs. 95% of players don’t make a problem out of it and just spend the money. I feel sorry for the 5% that don’t want to do that. I guess either buy the expac after all or try to make due.

http://www.louisaheinrich.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/inigo-montoya_that-word.jpg
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win
Having a paid expansion that unlocks all content is not pay-to-win. Ask for more allowance next month. Seriously though, when will these young gamers get it? Expansions are almost always paid content that people work overtime to push out. “Pay-to-win” means you can buy definite advantages over other people by spending more and more money. Games like Archeage are a perfect example of this. Seriously, go try AA and tell me how p2w this game is, please.

aktharr.2389:

i’m sorry if i offend anybody here but i’m just gonna get down to the point. PVP is now majorly broken and nothing i do can fix it. alot of people (including myself) that have not bought the expansion now cant even play a match with getting majorly destroyed. rangers range on the staff is too long and now they can tank like guardians. guardians can now tank and kill from a distance. you have mesmers who can kill anybody in 2 seconds (as if they weren’t op enough).
now some people are gonna be saying “haha noob just buy the expansion”, BUT some of us like PVP and don’t want to pay $30 or more just to balance the gameplay. anet, i like how you do things, but you need to nerf whatever your giving these players HARD, because you have broken the entire PVP system

Mesmers can’t kill anyone in 2 seconds. Shatter is not that strong, and the popular bunker build is even weaker. While there might be point that HoT is needed to be competitive, I don’t think that is the problem you are having.

Cuddle Time.4027:

http://www.louisaheinrich.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/inigo-montoya_that-word.jpg
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win
Having a paid expansion that unlocks all content is not pay-to-win. Ask for more allowance next month. Seriously though, when will these young gamers get it? Expansions are almost always paid content that people work overtime to push out. “Pay-to-win” means you can buy definite advantages over other people by spending more and more money. Games like Archeage are a perfect example of this. Seriously, go try AA and tell me how p2w this game is, please.

i understand what you mean. im not talking about the game itself is pay to win. i would love to get the expansion if i could. but pvp is pay-to-win in soe aspect because players who didnt pay have a serious disadvantage and almost can never win a game. all i want anet to do is balance the game in pvp for players who didn’t pay.

Let’s see what happens on teuseday, we don’t know everything that will happen and some traits will change and skills will be nerfed. I am one of those who beleaves that the power level of elite specs wasn’t 100% with purpose but on the other hand some MMO’s doesn’t even allow players with the new expansions to participate in the PvP. So most MMO’s who have new expansions is pay to win in OP’s eyes then.

aktharr.2389:

i’m sorry if i offend anybody here but i’m just gonna get down to the point. PVP is now majorly broken and nothing i do can fix it. alot of people (including myself) that have not bought the expansion now cant even play a match with getting majorly destroyed. rangers range on the staff is too long and now they can tank like guardians. guardians can now tank and kill from a distance. you have mesmers who can kill anybody in 2 seconds (as if they weren’t op enough).
now some people are gonna be saying “haha noob just buy the expansion”, BUT some of us like PVP and don’t want to pay $30 or more just to balance the gameplay. anet, i like how you do things, but you need to nerf whatever your giving these players HARD, because you have broken the entire PVP system

Pay to win is not an expansion.

Pay to win is stuff like buying a weapon or other gear that gives you an advantage.

Btw in other games, usually you cant play at max lvl without an expansion.
Be glad you can in this game. In other games you even need to buy the core game to even get to max lvl.

See the non-expansion game as a tryout, that you can play for free and if you want access to everything, than you need to pay a one time for the expansion.

Which isnt really expensive.

Going for a drink or movie a few times is more expansive for less time spend.

You have to look at it from Arenanets perspective too.
You can download the game for free and play it without a monthly fee (several other mmorpgs have monthly fee and cost money to purchase).

They need to make income to keep the game running well (the vanilla game had a cost previously and is free now) and not only from the shop.
Buying the expansion one time to have access to everything their currently is, seems fine to me. Lot cheaper overal than the mmorpg World of Warcraft for example.

I agree though that the elite specs are a bit to strong compared to the non-elite specs.

Btw, Mesmers dont need the expansion to do that quick burst kill.
If anything, they did that more before the expansion than after.

ok guys you are misunderstand. the expansion in general isn’t pay to win. all im saying is that players who paid for it get a better advantage over non-paying players. the elite specs totally need to be nerfed, but im NOT SAYING AT ALL that the expansion is pay to win. i don’t think all mmo expansions are pay-to-win either, but if pvp is unbalanced because of the expansion, i will complain. (i also have bought the game and played it since beta. i just don’t wanna pay more than i already did)

Yashuoa.9527:

Pay to win is not an expansion.

Pay to win is stuff like buying a weapon or other gear that gives you an advantage.

If ANet sold skills in the gemstore that is OP, would it be Pay2win?

By buying the elite specs of HoT you have a significant advantage over core class users, which you obtain by paying $50. If paying money to have an advantage over someone who didn’t(whether it’s an f2p nub or a 3 year sceptical veteran) is not pay2win then what is it?
This isn’t a rhetorical/sarcastic question btw
And before anyone comes up with the good ol’ ad hominem; I got more than enough money to get HoT and choose not to :p the cancer is still there even if i join it

MAN.9046:

By buying the elite specs of HoT you have a significant advantage over core class users, which you obtain by paying $50. If paying money to have an advantage over someone who didn’t(whether it’s an f2p nub or a 3 year sceptical veteran) is not pay2win then what is it?
This isn’t a rhetorical/sarcastic question btw
And before anyone comes up with the good ol’ ad hominem; I got more than enough money to get HoT and choose not to :p the cancer is still there even if i join it

Pay to win would be the ability to KEEP PAYING to get stronger, as it is right now anyone who buys the expansion is on an even playing field, no one is able to pay say an extra $50 to get better stuff then people who already bought the expansion, the expansion is a 1 time payment, a pay to win game would support a continual payment method like limited time buffs or weapons for cash were someone rich will be able to keep dishing out money to keep an advantage over someone who doesnt keep paying

runeblade.7514:

Yashuoa.9527:

Pay to win is not an expansion.

Pay to win is stuff like buying a weapon or other gear that gives you an advantage.

If ANet sold skills in the gemstore that is OP, would it be Pay2win?

Yes.
If only the core game existed and no expansion was added.
If you would than just sell individual skills, than it would be pay to win.

However, an expansion is not such a thing.
Not comparable to some individual skills thrown in a gemstore.
It has cost quite some money to bring out the expansion.
That money needs to come back somehow.

You want to download the game for free, play it for free and expect to have equal chances to people with an expansion?
Arenanet is suppose to keep the game running with no income?

You can already play at max lvl without having to buy anything.
You dont have a monthly fee.
Usually the lvl cap goes up with an expansion, which doesnt allow you to play max lvl even without it.
Be glad that didnt happen in guildwars. Than you couldnt even try at max lvl. Which could have been normal too (a small lvl cap increase).
You can even try out max lvl without the elite specs.

You can see the game without the expansion as a very big tryout (way bigger than most mmorpgs). If you want to have access to everything currently, than you simply need to pay once for the expansion. Completely normal.

Expansions are in most big mmorpgs, unlike pay to win.
Different concept.

You are not suppose to download for free + play for free + have everything equal to expansion purchasers for free.

You want everything handed out for free and still expect arenanet to keep the game running well?

Among the big mmorpgs, guild wars is one of the cheapest.
Yet people still complain about having less chances without the expansion. So silly.

If HoT expansion is pay to win, than every single expansion in any game is pay to win (which isnt true).

Kayberz.5346:

Pay to win would be the ability to KEEP PAYING to get stronger, as it is right now anyone who buys the expansion is on an even playing field, no one is able to pay say an extra $50 to get better stuff then people who already bought the expansion, the expansion is a 1 time payment, a pay to win game would support a continual payment method like limited time buffs or weapons for cash were someone rich will be able to keep dishing out money to keep an advantage over someone who doesnt keep paying

And this.

Kayberz.5346:

MAN.9046:

By buying the elite specs of HoT you have a significant advantage over core class users, which you obtain by paying $50. If paying money to have an advantage over someone who didn’t(whether it’s an f2p nub or a 3 year sceptical veteran) is not pay2win then what is it?
This isn’t a rhetorical/sarcastic question btw
And before anyone comes up with the good ol’ ad hominem; I got more than enough money to get HoT and choose not to :p the cancer is still there even if i join it

Pay to win would be the ability to KEEP PAYING to get stronger, as it is right now anyone who buys the expansion is on an even playing field, no one is able to pay say an extra $50 to get better stuff then people who already bought the expansion, the expansion is a 1 time payment, a pay to win game would support a continual payment method like limited time buffs or weapons for cash were someone rich will be able to keep dishing out money to keep an advantage over someone who doesnt keep paying

So if I buy Sword of Epic strength from the gemstore and use it in PvP to win games. Then the game isn’t OP because I don’t need to keep paying to beat other players. Is that right?

Yashuoa.9527:

runeblade.7514:

Yashuoa.9527:

Pay to win is not an expansion.

Pay to win is stuff like buying a weapon or other gear that gives you an advantage.

If ANet sold skills in the gemstore that is OP, would it be Pay2win?

Yes.
If only the core game existed and no expansion was added.
If you would than just sell individual skills, than it would be pay to win.

However, an expansion is not such a thing.
Not comparable to some individual skills thrown in a gemstore.
It has cost quite some money to bring out the expansion.
That money needs to come back somehow.

You want to download the game for free, play it for free and expect to have equal chances to people with an expansion?
Arenanet is suppose to keep the game running with no income?

You can already play at max lvl without having to buy anything.
You dont have a monthly fee.
Usually the lvl cap goes up with an expansion, which doesnt allow you to play max lvl even without it.
Be glad that didnt happen in guildwars. Than you couldnt even try at max lvl. Which could have been normal too (a small lvl cap increase).
You can even try out max lvl without the elite specs.

You can see the game without the expansion as a very big tryout (way bigger than most mmorpgs). If you want to have access to everything currently, than you simply need to pay once for the expansion. Completely normal.

Expansions are in most big mmorpgs, unlike pay to win.
Different concept.

You are not suppose to download for free + play for free + have everything equal to expansion purchasers for free.

You want everything handed out for free and still expect arenanet to keep the game running well?

Among the big mmorpgs, guild wars is one of the cheapest.
Yet people still complain about having less chances without the expansion. So silly.

If HoT expansion is pay to win, than every single expansion in any game is pay to win (which isnt true)..

In other words, the only way a game can’t be pay2win is if they add some content, which pvpers don’t care about, to the skill packs only purchasable with real money.

MAN.9046:

By buying the elite specs of HoT you have a significant advantage over core class users, which you obtain by paying $50. If paying money to have an advantage over someone who didn’t(whether it’s an f2p nub or a 3 year sceptical veteran) is not pay2win then what is it?

By the literal definition of pay2win HoT is pay2win.
By the spirit of the term pay2win HoT is not pay2win.

Honestly if you go by the literal definition of pay2win every expansion released by every mmorpg to date (or at least that I know of) is pay2win. However that’s not the spirit of the term pay2win, since expansions/sequels are expected to have new stuff that is pretty much always going to be stronger than the old stuff. (power creep haunts all perpetual games)

This is a very true statement

Crinn.7864:

MAN.9046:

By buying the elite specs of HoT you have a significant advantage over core class users, which you obtain by paying $50. If paying money to have an advantage over someone who didn’t(whether it’s an f2p nub or a 3 year sceptical veteran) is not pay2win then what is it?

By the literal definition of pay2win HoT is pay2win.
By the spirit of the term pay2win HoT is not pay2win.

Honestly if you go by the literal definition of pay2win every expansion released by every mmorpg to date (or at least that I know of) is pay2win. However that’s not the spirit of the term pay2win, since expansions/sequels are expected to have new stuff that is pretty much always going to be stronger than the old stuff. (power creep haunts all perpetual games)

*this not really directed at you. Just quoted as a bit of context.

Very true but we’re not comparing GW2 to other games. Other games have nothing to do with GW2 balance. I don’t even know what MAN and Yashuo are on about as both of them try to make silly arguments that are literally self-contradictory. The issue here is the ‘spirit’ of GW2 PvP which was/is supposed to be/has always been about easy entry/access and a level, balanced playing field. That is the OP’s concern and many others have expressed this. I think many people take this statement -“PvP is now P2W”- as some kind of attack on their character like they’re being called cheaters or something.

The bottom line is, it doesn’t matter what in the hell any other MMO does or has ever done and Anet selling the expansion as a form of needed income has nothing to do with anything either. The Revenant and the new trait lines should sell on their own merit and PvP should always remain balanced, fair, and easy to access.

I even recently made the suggestion that Anet should allow players to purchase the new traitltraitlines, for PvP only, in HotM for a gold cost (50-100g is fair I think) as we do with amulets and other PvP build components. I also suggested instead, in order to minimize the idea, they could sell a ‘PvP Elite Spec Pack’ in the Game Upgrade category for a fair price (1200 gems or $15-mainly for PvP only players really), but I think this would more defeat the purpose of the idea. Revenant should remain an HoT feature for sure but PvP should be balanced. The term ‘Elite Spec’ should have never even been mentioned b/c of what they imply to traditional MMO players (instead of what GW1/2 veterans would think.

*Also…Yashuo

“It’s not P2W, it is an expansion………do you really think you should be able to download the core game [it was actually sold at one point to a lot of players in case you forgot] for free and still be competitive with people who paid!?”

Do you even realize how ridiculous this statement is? It is literally the very definition of contradiction.

I am without HOT, it very hard to got diamond and i did it

@tman your option while a good idea would make it pay to win( your post was to long to edit on my phoneXD)

Even worse. PvP was pay to win. After getting the money, the classes are being wrecked. So not only was it pay to win, it was pay to get nothing.

Tman.6349:

Crinn.7864:

MAN.9046:

By buying the elite specs of HoT you have a significant advantage over core class users, which you obtain by paying $50. If paying money to have an advantage over someone who didn’t(whether it’s an f2p nub or a 3 year sceptical veteran) is not pay2win then what is it?

By the literal definition of pay2win HoT is pay2win.
By the spirit of the term pay2win HoT is not pay2win.

Honestly if you go by the literal definition of pay2win every expansion released by every mmorpg to date (or at least that I know of) is pay2win. However that’s not the spirit of the term pay2win, since expansions/sequels are expected to have new stuff that is pretty much always going to be stronger than the old stuff. (power creep haunts all perpetual games)

*this not really directed at you. Just quoted as a bit of context.

Very true but we’re not comparing GW2 to other games. Other games have nothing to do with GW2 balance. I don’t even know what MAN and Yashuo are on about as both of them try to make silly arguments that are literally self-contradictory. The issue here is the ‘spirit’ of GW2 PvP which was/is supposed to be/has always been about easy entry/access and a level, balanced playing field. That is the OP’s concern and many others have expressed this. I think many people take this statement -“PvP is now P2W”- as some kind of attack on their character like they’re being called cheaters or something.

The bottom line is, it doesn’t matter what in the hell any other MMO does or has ever done and Anet selling the expansion as a form of needed income has nothing to do with anything either. The Revenant and the new trait lines should sell on their own merit and PvP should always remain balanced, fair, and easy to access.

I even recently made the suggestion that Anet should allow players to purchase the new traitltraitlines, for PvP only, in HotM for a gold cost (50-100g is fair I think) as we do with amulets and other PvP build components. I also suggested instead, in order to minimize the idea, they could sell a ‘PvP Elite Spec Pack’ in the Game Upgrade category for a fair price (1200 gems or $15-mainly for PvP only players really), but I think this would more defeat the purpose of the idea. Revenant should remain an HoT feature for sure but PvP should be balanced. The term ‘Elite Spec’ should have never even been mentioned b/c of what they imply to traditional MMO players (instead of what GW1/2 veterans would think.

*Also…Yashuo

“It’s not P2W, it is an expansion………do you really think you should be able to download the core game [it was actually sold at one point to a lot of players in case you forgot] for free and still be competitive with people who paid!?”

Do you even realize how ridiculous this statement is? It is literally the very definition of contradiction.

I didnt make contradictions, nor silly arguments.
Its just you who thinks so, because you dont understand the post I made and what pay to win actually is.

Expansion is not paid to win. Pay to win is a different paying concept than buying an expansion. The game without the expansion is not the full game anymore.

You know what would be fair too?
As mentioned, a lot of other games have a higher lvl cap in the expansion.

It wouldnt be weird at all if with HoT the lvl cap went to 85 with new spells and would only be reachable with the expansion and that Anet completely ignored how pvp went at 80 for those without the expansion, because the game moved on to HoT.
That is what usually happens in mmorpgs

But Anet is even gonna try to tune down the elite specs a bit and buff the normal specs. Buff up less traits in the non-elite specs and such. Which people without hot will benifit from too. So they are doing their best.

Dont take everything literally.

Its just ungrateful and unrealistic if you can download for free, no monthly fee, no expansion purchased and than expecting that they treat it as the full gw2 game, which it is not anymore.

Also Anet income and such are not silly points either (nor are comparisons with other similar games).

Aparently you want Anet to run everything for free at no income and still expect the game to be in a healthy state and balanced (mmorpgs wont be fully balanced anyway, because of the huge differences between classes and amount of builds and classes. It wasnt balanced before HoT either).

Lets rephrase a few points.
You want balance and the game to run well right?
Yet you can download the non-HoT GW2 for free now (used to be purchased) and you can play at max lvl with it. It costs money to keep the game running, even without an expansion
Creating expansions cost money.
How is it weird that you pay for those services?
WHICH IS NOT the same as pay to win.
That has been explained by many in this thread.
Not their fault that you cant or dont want to grasp it.

Do you rather see a monthly fee of 15$ a month and a free expansion/no expansion?
They could do that too and get there income that way.
Than you cant take it literally and call it pay to win.
It would cost a lot more though than a one time expansion.
I bet you would prefer no montly fee and a one time purchable expansion/no expansion.

I have said enough. If you still cant understand it from others and me, than I dont know how to get it through or maybe you are just trolling.

Yashuoa.9527:

I didnt make contradictions, nor silly arguments.
Its just you who thinks so, because you dont understand the post I made and what pay to win actually is.

Expansion is not paid to win. Pay to win is a different paying concept than buying an expansion. The game without the expansion is not the full game anymore.

You know what would be fair too?
As mentioned, a lot of other games have a higher lvl cap in the expansion.

It wouldnt be weird at all if with HoT the lvl cap went to 85 with new spells and would only be reachable with the expansion and that Anet completely ignored how pvp went at 80 for those without the expansion, because the game moved on to HoT.
That is what usually happens in mmorpgs

But Anet is even gonna try to tune down the elite specs a bit and buff the normal specs. Buff up less traits in the non-elite specs and such. Which people without hot will benifit from too. So they are doing their best.

Dont take everything literally.

Its just ungrateful and unrealistic if you can download for free, no monthly fee, no expansion purchased and than expecting that they treat it as the full gw2 game, which it is not anymore.

Also Anet income and such are not silly points either (nor are comparisons with other similar games).

Aparently you want Anet to run everything for free at no income and still expect the game to be in a healthy state and balanced (mmorpgs wont be fully balanced anyway, because of the huge differences between classes and amount of builds and classes. It wasnt balanced before HoT either).

Lets rephrase a few points.
You want balance and the game to run well right?
Yet you can download the non-HoT GW2 for free now (used to be purchased) and you can play at max lvl with it. It costs money to keep the game running, even without an expansion
Creating expansions cost money.
How is it weird that you pay for those services?
WHICH IS NOT the same as pay to win.
That has been explained by many in this thread.
Not their fault that you cant or dont want to grasp it.

Do you rather see a monthly fee of 15$ a month and a free expansion?
They could do that too and get there income that way.
Than you cant take it literally and call it pay to win.
It would cost a lot more though than a one time expansion.
I bet you would prefer no montly fee and a one time purchable expansion.

I have said enough. If you still cant understand it from others and me, than I dont know how to get it through or maybe you are just trolling.

Seems like the only way you cannot see the game being pay2win is if the developers slap a expansion tag on it. Regardless or not when the best upgrades for the classes and advantages have to be bought with real money.

I don’t see why these “we need to nerf this” threads keep popping up considering there is a balance patch literally 2 days from now. Why don’t we wait and see what it brings before we ask for more changes? The initial strength of the especs was a marketing strat used to increase profit for the first few months. Now that the initial influx of players for the expac is over, they will bring things back into relative balance. At least, that’s the idea…

Yashuoa.9527:

Tman.6349:

Crinn.7864:

MAN.9046:

By buying the elite specs of HoT you have a significant advantage over core class users, which you obtain by paying $50. If paying money to have an advantage over someone who didn’t(whether it’s an f2p nub or a 3 year sceptical veteran) is not pay2win then what is it?

By the literal definition of pay2win HoT is pay2win.
By the spirit of the term pay2win HoT is not pay2win.

Honestly if you go by the literal definition of pay2win every expansion released by every mmorpg to date (or at least that I know of) is pay2win. However that’s not the spirit of the term pay2win, since expansions/sequels are expected to have new stuff that is pretty much always going to be stronger than the old stuff. (power creep haunts all perpetual games)

*this not really directed at you. Just quoted as a bit of context.

Very true but we’re not comparing GW2 to other games. Other games have nothing to do with GW2 balance. I don’t even know what MAN and Yashuo are on about as both of them try to make silly arguments that are literally self-contradictory. The issue here is the ‘spirit’ of GW2 PvP which was/is supposed to be/has always been about easy entry/access and a level, balanced playing field. That is the OP’s concern and many others have expressed this. I think many people take this statement -“PvP is now P2W”- as some kind of attack on their character like they’re being called cheaters or something.

The bottom line is, it doesn’t matter what in the hell any other MMO does or has ever done and Anet selling the expansion as a form of needed income has nothing to do with anything either. The Revenant and the new trait lines should sell on their own merit and PvP should always remain balanced, fair, and easy to access.

I even recently made the suggestion that Anet should allow players to purchase the new traitltraitlines, for PvP only, in HotM for a gold cost (50-100g is fair I think) as we do with amulets and other PvP build components. I also suggested instead, in order to minimize the idea, they could sell a ‘PvP Elite Spec Pack’ in the Game Upgrade category for a fair price (1200 gems or $15-mainly for PvP only players really), but I think this would more defeat the purpose of the idea. Revenant should remain an HoT feature for sure but PvP should be balanced. The term ‘Elite Spec’ should have never even been mentioned b/c of what they imply to traditional MMO players (instead of what GW1/2 veterans would think.

*Also…Yashuo

“It’s not P2W, it is an expansion………do you really think you should be able to download the core game [it was actually sold at one point to a lot of players in case you forgot] for free and still be competitive with people who paid!?”

Do you even realize how ridiculous this statement is? It is literally the very definition of contradiction.

I didnt make contradictions, nor silly arguments.
Its just you who thinks so, because you dont understand the post I made and what pay to win actually is.

Expansion is not paid to win. Pay to win is a different paying concept than buying an expansion. The game without the expansion is not the full game anymore.

You know what would be fair too?
As mentioned, a lot of other games have a higher lvl cap in the expansion.

It wouldnt be weird at all if with HoT the lvl cap went to 85 with new spells and would only be reachable with the expansion and that Anet completely ignored how pvp went at 80 for those without the expansion, because the game moved on to HoT.
That is what usually happens in mmorpgs

But Anet is even gonna try to tune down the elite specs a bit and buff the normal specs. Buff up less traits in the non-elite specs and such. Which people without hot will benifit from too. So they are doing their best.

Dont take everything literally.

Its just ungrateful and unrealistic if you can download for free, no monthly fee, no expansion purchased and than expecting that they treat it as the full gw2 game, which it is not anymore.

Also Anet income and such are not silly points either (nor are comparisons with other similar games).

Aparently you want Anet to run everything for free at no income and still expect the game to be in a healthy state and balanced (mmorpgs wont be fully balanced anyway, because of the huge differences between classes and amount of builds and classes. It wasnt balanced before HoT either).

Lets rephrase a few points.
You want balance and the game to run well right?
Yet you can download the non-HoT GW2 for free now (used to be purchased) and you can play at max lvl with it. It costs money to keep the game running, even without an expansion
Creating expansions cost money.
How is it weird that you pay for those services?
WHICH IS NOT the same as pay to win.
That has been explained by many in this thread.
Not their fault that you cant or dont want to grasp it.

Do you rather see a monthly fee of 15$ a month and a free expansion/no expansion?
They could do that too and get there income that way.
Than you cant take it literally and call it pay to win.
It would cost a lot more though than a one time expansion.
I bet you would prefer no montly fee and a one time purchable expansion/no expansion.

I have said enough. If you still cant understand it from others and me, than I dont know how to get it through or maybe you are just trolling.

Combat Log:

All your Strawmen crit +9000 using Every Fallacy Ever!

Anyone got the dead horse gif?

Wait,

So if I brought HoT and chose to run Berserker under the newly released HoT Meta, am I paying to win or paying to lose? Because according to everyone Berserker is so UP it had no place in the meta.

So relatively speaking this whole claim of p2w is just BS. Good times :D

You absolutely right OP. People are trying to say its different than p2w but its not. It just hasn’t manifested itself in the form of armors or weapons that its not P2W. It doesn’t matter if its an item continually in a shop or an xpac. If The Elite Specs Continue To Be More Powerful than core classes, It will be Pay To Win.

Which is ludicrous because I believe many of us thought that these elite specs would be “side grades” and not “UP Grades”. I wanted variety not Upgrades from core gw2.

runeblade.7514:

Seems like the only way you cannot see the game being pay2win is if the developers slap a expansion tag on it. Regardless or not when the best upgrades for the classes and advantages have to be bought with real money.

You seem to have not understand most of the post.

I cant help it if you cant see the difference between pay to win and an expansion.
Just because both require cash, doesnt have to make them both pay to win.
It has nothing to do with the tag either. They are different concepts. They only thing they have in common is that both cost money, but that doesnt have to make them both pay to win.
Kayberz explained it well (I quoted him a few posts up).

Please be realistic.

You cant expect to have a game this big made into a free download, no monthly fee, access to max lvl, than expect everything to be treated as the full game and expect everything to be balanced and keep running well completely free and complain if it doesnt.

Thats not realistic and ungrateful as well.Try to see Anets point of view.

Questions.
Also are all expansions in mmorpgs now suddenly pay to win in your eyes?
Dont take pay to win literally.
If you do, than suddenly every expansion in every mmorpg is pay to win, which is nonsense.

Would you rather have a monthly fee and no expansion or free expansions?
Than you cant call it pay to win anymore, but it would cost you more money.
Not what I would want.

MAN.9046:

By buying the elite specs of HoT you have a significant advantage over core class users, which you obtain by paying $50. If paying money to have an advantage over someone who didn’t(whether it’s an f2p nub or a 3 year sceptical veteran) is not pay2win then what is it?

Buying HoT gives you an advantage, but not an advantage that is proportional to how much you spend on the game. Everyone gets the exact same advantage once they buy the expansion pack. The phrase “pay2win” is linked to games where you can keep spending real money for more and more advantage to the point where you cannot be beaten and so can pay to win.

Your version of the definition would class EVERY game with an expansion with new skills or an increase in level a “pay2win” game which is obviously not true.

Eg. In a pay2win game someone who spends £1000 will have a massive advantage over someone who spends £35, this is obviously untrue of HoT.

Yashuoa.9527:

You seem to have not understand most of the post.

I cant help it if you cant see the difference between pay to win and an expansion.
Just because both require cash, doesnt have to make them both pay to win.
It has nothing to do with the tag either. They are different concepts. They only thing they have in common is that both cost money, but that doesnt have to make them both pay to win.

You also forgot that expansion gives more advantages over players that don’t buy expansion. I can’t play Chronomancers if I don’t have expansion.

Please be realistic.

You cant expect to have a game this big made into a free download, no monthly fee, access to max lvl, than expect everything to be treated as the full game and expect everything to be balanced and keep running well completely free and complain if it doesnt.

Thats not realistic and ungrateful as well.Try to see Anets point of view.

I should excuse all pay2win mmorpg because they have to pay bills and stuff because….?

Questions.
Also are all expansions in mmorpgs now suddenly pay to win in your eyes?
Dont take pay to win literally.

If I am at a disadvantage when I am pvping against other players just because I didn’t pay a little extra money then it is pay2win. If it is just extra content packs regardless or not I care about. It isn’t pay2win.

In other MMORPG, expansion gives higher levels. So non-expansion buyers do not play with expansion buyers.

Would you rather have a monthly fee and no expansion or free expansions?
Than you cant call it pay to win anymore, but it would cost you more money.
Not what I would want.

ANet doesn’t need to put pay2win advantages in PvP. They made stronghold core for everyone.

Allowing all players to equip elite specs regardless or not if they bought the expansion will make this game less pay2win.

Yashuoa.9527:

I cant help it if you cant see the difference between pay to win and expansion.

Please, you’re talking about a colloquial expression that has come about due to online gaming.

These expressions are developed through the complex array of society, culture and overall history. As such they’re an evolving process, not set in stone, after all English is hardly a ‘logical’ language.

If you going to get stuck on these kinds of semantics your not going to have any legitimate interactions. You’re really just left arguing ’I’m right, because I say so’ ad nauseam.

Alright then, lets forget sematics and look at it this way.

If you accept HoT as pay2win on the grounds of HoT being purchasable and increasing the power level, then you have to accept that all expansions in all mmorpg titles are therefore pay2win.
Which of course begs the question of “if you hate pay2win why are you playing mmorpgs?” since by the definition of pay2win defined in this thread all mmorpgs are pay2win.

Seriously, people are going to have to accept the fact that expansions in mmorpgs will typically cost money and will typically increase the power level.

Cuddle Time.4027:

http://www.louisaheinrich.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/inigo-montoya_that-word.jpg
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win
Having a paid expansion that unlocks all content is not pay-to-win. Ask for more allowance next month. Seriously though, when will these young gamers get it? Expansions are almost always paid content that people work overtime to push out. “Pay-to-win” means you can buy definite advantages over other people by spending more and more money. Games like Archeage are a perfect example of this. Seriously, go try AA and tell me how p2w this game is, please.

Ummm you contradicted yourself, because buying HoT gave you definite advantages over other people. Everyone knows all the meta builds were elite spec’d. Every one of them.

However to the OP. Understand that GW2 was not always f2p either. It is quite obvious ANET went f2p to upsell HoT. ANET logic right there. I could careless for HoT content myself, and just ended up paying for an overpriced expansion to get elite specs.

They should of just allowed players to buy individual elite specs with gems. Hilarious considering ANET may have made more $ that way. (You’re welcome ANET if you read this)

Also comparing this game to archeage….? haha really? That game is an insult to PvP everywhere.

In a pay2win game someone who spends £1000 will have a massive advantage over someone who spends £35, this is obviously untrue of HoT.

Buying HoT gives you an advantage, but not an advantage that is proportional to how much you spend on the game. Everyone gets the exact same advantage once they buy the expansion pack. The phrase “pay2win” is linked to games where you can keep spending real money for more and more advantage to the point where you cannot be beaten and so can pay to win.

You’re playing the game 3 months after expansion and you still haven’t bought it? Entitled much? I’m going to assume you didn’t buy the original game and you jumped in when it went free to play. That’s fine. Try before you buy if your wallet is tight. But if you’re playing the game and enjoying the game. Start saving.

This is a business and it’s a good one that isn’t trying to psychology bully it’s players into paying money. You say you’re feeling the pressure in PvP. But it’s your choice to go into PvP.

There’s been a billion threads on this subject. Can we just get over it? Can we just start banning people that post about this over and over?

Where are all these base GW2 players/toons? I saw a couple of core builds this season, I could count them on one hand. Everybody else was running HoT.

If everybody who’s anybody is running HoT in PvP, why should anybody care about this topic? “P2W” arguments become invalid at this point.

Okay, you need to get this…. the f2p thing is like a free trial, it’s not the way the game is meant to be played. Why? because they put money and worked to make it. We could argue that this alienate people like you that don’t want to pay and it’s indeed a paywall, but a paywall isn’t p2w.

Can you buy power? No. You can buy 4 maps, 9 elite specs, 4 new story chapters, tons of collections, raids, a new class, etc.

Cuddle Time.4027:

http://www.louisaheinrich.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/inigo-montoya_that-word.jpg
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win
Having a paid expansion that unlocks all content is not pay-to-win. Ask for more allowance next month. Seriously though, when will these young gamers get it? Expansions are almost always paid content that people work overtime to push out. “Pay-to-win” means you can buy definite advantages over other people by spending more and more money. Games like Archeage are a perfect example of this. Seriously, go try AA and tell me how p2w this game is, please.

this pretty much. learn2call things with their right name

Pay to win is a term that has been used for different things in different games. In gw2, it should be called buy2win. You have to buy the expansion if you want to gain an advantage over others, or prevent others to gain an advantage on you. Frankly, I do not own HoT, and never will. There is nothing I desire in that content, new specs are dislikeable for my taste (maybe new ones will come someday, than I may buy it.)

There is a huge balance issue in the game right now, which will be solved (Anet claims) with tomorrow’s patch. As for f2p accounts, I bought this game 1.2 year ago. It was neither free nor cheap. So not every non-HoT player is using free accounts.

And about the expansion thing, yes expansions cost money. That is why firms like Blizzard tend to produce so many, and force it upon players. But again, if I wanted to play a game similar to WoW, I would continue playing WoW. It can be applied to other games. Guild Wars was a unique game.

Let us wait for tomorrow’s patch again, for Anet to crush our hopes and dreams about balance, again.

I cleared Legend solo queuing without HoT with a high win rate (73-76%). Some core gw2 builds really counter the commonly used professions in people stack for leagues.

Chaith.8256:

I cleared Legend solo queuing without HoT with a high win rate (73-76%). Some core gw2 builds really counter the commonly used professions in people stack for leagues.

I play core engineer over scrapper for WvW, and I’ll be intending to play core warrior in PvP after the patch. sure not all classes match in to their elites (mesmer, ranger etc), but a lot of them do.

regardless, expansions always have power creep. it’s actually what people really want when they buy it. some excitement, some power.

Chaith.8256:

I cleared Legend solo queuing without HoT with a high win rate (73-76%). Some core gw2 builds really counter the commonly used professions in people stack for leagues.

Aside from queing with pz members though in your case that was pretty likely to reduce que times wich anet is more to blaim for then you or players with the same situation its also on Anet for not correcting piploss vs premade guildgroups (lost 2 pips multiple times sometimes only with a <100 diference

lloydst.6985:

Chaith.8256:

I cleared Legend solo queuing without HoT with a high win rate (73-76%). Some core gw2 builds really counter the commonly used professions in people stack for leagues.

Aside from queing with pz members though in your case that was pretty likely to reduce que times wich anet is more to blaim for then you or players with the same situation its also on Anet for not correcting piploss vs premade guildgroups (lost 2 pips multiple times sometimes only with a <100 diference

I’m not talking about my main account which has HoT and has team queued…

Chaith.8256:

I cleared Legend solo queuing without HoT with a high win rate (73-76%). Some core gw2 builds really counter the commonly used professions in people stack for leagues.

But Chaithh! That can’t be possible! That’s not what MetaBattle says! =P

OH MY GOSH GUYS YOU ARENT LISTENING. Pay-To-Win was just a title thing i came up with because i thought in some aspect it was.

WHAT I really was trying to say was they need to balance the powers of the expansion players and the powers of regular player by either boosting or nerfing some of the classes

aktharr.2389:

OH MY GOSH GUYS YOU ARENT LISTENING. Pay-To-Win was just a title thing i came up with because i thought in some aspect it was.

WHAT I really was trying to say was they need to balance the powers of the expansion players and the powers of regular player by either boosting or nerfing some of the classes

The ONLY way to make Elite and Core Specs balanced is to REMOVE a Core choice from the Elite Spec (including a set of Utilities).

Because the ELites have EVERYTHING from Core and MORE ADDED => cannot be balanced with Core.

This is just a fact of life, this does not mean the game is pay2win though (as explained above).

Play non-elite thief. People will be so startled to not see you revealed by your own dodges, they will loose. And… thief is kittened atm anyway. Also, they wont touch elite spec in next so called “balance patch” on tuesday.

Have fun.

aktharr.2389:

OH MY GOSH GUYS YOU ARENT LISTENING. Pay-To-Win was just a title thing i came up with because i thought in some aspect it was.

WHAT I really was trying to say was they need to balance the powers of the expansion players and the powers of regular player by either boosting or nerfing some of the classes

So, you made a click bait thread and now you wanna get upset that you have people who came to this thread with their opinions formed before they read a single word?

Welcome to the internet.

aktharr.2389:

OH MY GOSH GUYS YOU ARENT LISTENING. Pay-To-Win was just a title thing i came up with because i thought in some aspect it was.

WHAT I really was trying to say was they need to balance the powers of the expansion players and the powers of regular player by either boosting or nerfing some of the classes

You should just start a new thread then. One that is more clear from the start.