Guild Wars 2

Brew Pinch.5731:

Yunalesca.9850:

they can always stop shooting.

> Stop shooting

Love how people say this in seriousness as if it isn’t an issue.

“Yeah bro, just stop using any abilities and run away for 15 seconds man, you’ll be OK for sure, EZmode.”

Ridiculous.

It’s perplexing that months of video and legitimate complaints on the WvW forums have amounted to this.

I’m gonna be trolling so hard with these runes, if they are intent on dropping that final nail in sPvP’s coffin rather than just releasing new modes to revitalize it, I may as well go down laughing. What a shambles.

15 seconds? No dangerous amount of confusion is going to be on you (from one person at least) for 15 seconds. 5 seconds easily, but anything beyond that is completely doable.

Raunchy.6891:

Brew Pinch.5731:

Yunalesca.9850:

they can always stop shooting.

> Stop shooting

Love how people say this in seriousness as if it isn’t an issue.

“Yeah bro, just stop using any abilities and run away for 15 seconds man, you’ll be OK for sure, EZmode.”

Ridiculous.

It’s perplexing that months of video and legitimate complaints on the WvW forums have amounted to this.

I’m gonna be trolling so hard with these runes, if they are intent on dropping that final nail in sPvP’s coffin rather than just releasing new modes to revitalize it, I may as well go down laughing. What a shambles.

15 seconds? No dangerous amount of confusion is going to be on you (from one person at least) for 15 seconds. 5 seconds easily, but anything beyond that is completely doable.

Another person who doesn’t bother to learn skill or read before posting. The rune duration alone is above 5 seconds. It gives more confusion duration (don’t argue with them currently being broken you have to assume they will fix it) and add in normal condition duration… lol 10-12 seconds easily.

The issue is the game is overly saturated with conditions. This widens the gap further away from a balanced game. You again have professions with an overabundance of conditions and other builds with large amounts of condition cleanses. Those in the middle are not in a good place. This arms race is getting out of hand.

If you wanted to open up build diversity, you should focus on those builds specifically. Adding another means to apply conditions to professions such as necro and engineer is lunacy. The 4 piece bonus…is over the top. That alone could be the 6th piece bonus and it would still be out of place. Random procs like that shouldn’t even be in the game.

JinDaVikk.7291:

Raunchy.6891:

Brew Pinch.5731:

Yunalesca.9850:

they can always stop shooting.

> Stop shooting

Love how people say this in seriousness as if it isn’t an issue.

“Yeah bro, just stop using any abilities and run away for 15 seconds man, you’ll be OK for sure, EZmode.”

Ridiculous.

It’s perplexing that months of video and legitimate complaints on the WvW forums have amounted to this.

I’m gonna be trolling so hard with these runes, if they are intent on dropping that final nail in sPvP’s coffin rather than just releasing new modes to revitalize it, I may as well go down laughing. What a shambles.

15 seconds? No dangerous amount of confusion is going to be on you (from one person at least) for 15 seconds. 5 seconds easily, but anything beyond that is completely doable.

Another person who doesn’t bother to learn skill or read before posting. The rune duration alone is above 5 seconds. It gives more confusion duration (don’t argue with them currently being broken you have to assume they will fix it) and add in normal condition duration… lol 10-12 seconds easily.

I know exactly how long the conditions last. I tested it with my mesmer + the trait that gives more condition duration than these runes…….my point still stands. Also yes the confusion applied from the runes are long but not from any class skills. So unless you have some kind of video showing me one person applying and maintaining 15 stacks of confusion for 10 seconds I would have to say you’re woefully mistaken. :/

Pyriall.5027:

Adding another means to apply conditions to professions such as necro and engineer is lunacy. The 4 piece bonus…is over the top. That alone could be the 6th piece bonus and it would still be out of place. Random procs like that shouldn’t even be in the game.

I doubt we will see many necros move to these runes, since the max stacks they can get is 8 every 25 seconds, along with the fact that interrupting as a necro isn’t that easy.

Also how could a bonus that gets 3 stacks of confusion applied to you if you hit the other person ever be a 6 piece bonus? I would sort of agree if they weren’t changing it, but with the changes it’s not that game breaking of a set anymore. Though I completely agree that random procs like that shouldn’t exist in this game.

Raunchy.6891:

Pyriall.5027:

Adding another means to apply conditions to professions such as necro and engineer is lunacy. The 4 piece bonus…is over the top. That alone could be the 6th piece bonus and it would still be out of place. Random procs like that shouldn’t even be in the game.

I doubt we will see many necros move to these runes, since the max stacks they can get is 8 every 25 seconds, along with the fact that interrupting as a necro isn’t that easy.

Also how could a bonus that gets 3 stacks of confusion applied to you if you hit the other person ever be a 6 piece bonus? I would sort of agree if they weren’t changing it, but with the changes it’s not that game breaking of a set anymore. Though I completely agree that random procs like that shouldn’t exist in this game.

It’s a completely passive punishment for others doing what the game requires you to do (attack the other person). The 4 piece bonus should be in line with other 4 piece bonuses, which is a minor compliment to the rune set. There are only 2 rune sets that come to mind that we can compare them to. Nightmare/Air runes. The four piece bonus is a very minor compliment to the rune set. The 6th rounds out the set and air is on par with the 4 piece bonus of perplexity.

Arenanet: 5 stacks of confusion with 12.8 seconds duration will shut down everyone who is not able to cleanse that. This is too strong for a runeset.

Please don´t implement your current version of it. 8 sec base duration is overpowered. Bring it down to 3-4 sec with 20-25 sec ICD or change this bonus to something that can´t carry new players.

The confusion from the 4th bonus lasts too long aswell (up to 8 sec).

Preferably just leave it in pve. It promotes a kitten y playstyle. The purpose of CC should not be a condistack.

Pyriall.5027:

Raunchy.6891:

Pyriall.5027:

Adding another means to apply conditions to professions such as necro and engineer is lunacy. The 4 piece bonus…is over the top. That alone could be the 6th piece bonus and it would still be out of place. Random procs like that shouldn’t even be in the game.

I doubt we will see many necros move to these runes, since the max stacks they can get is 8 every 25 seconds, along with the fact that interrupting as a necro isn’t that easy.

Also how could a bonus that gets 3 stacks of confusion applied to you if you hit the other person ever be a 6 piece bonus? I would sort of agree if they weren’t changing it, but with the changes it’s not that game breaking of a set anymore. Though I completely agree that random procs like that shouldn’t exist in this game.

It’s a completely passive punishment for others doing what the game requires you to do (attack the other person). The 4 piece bonus should be in line with other 4 piece bonuses, which is a minor compliment to the rune set. There are only 2 rune sets that come to mind that we can compare them to. Nightmare/Air runes. The four piece bonus is a very minor compliment to the rune set. The 6th rounds out the set and air is on par with the 4 piece bonus of perplexity.

There are a good amount of 4 piece bonuses that give a condition for being hit. I don’t agree with it, but it’s the pattern that they’ve chosen. While I do agree when comparing the stacks to other 4 piece bonuses this one is stronger than the others for sure, but we won’t know if that holds true until we see the changes to the rest of the runes. Also, it’s better to compare these runes to similar runes, like Krait or Orrian.

Raunchy.6891:

Pyriall.5027:

Raunchy.6891:

Pyriall.5027:

Adding another means to apply conditions to professions such as necro and engineer is lunacy. The 4 piece bonus…is over the top. That alone could be the 6th piece bonus and it would still be out of place. Random procs like that shouldn’t even be in the game.

I doubt we will see many necros move to these runes, since the max stacks they can get is 8 every 25 seconds, along with the fact that interrupting as a necro isn’t that easy.

Also how could a bonus that gets 3 stacks of confusion applied to you if you hit the other person ever be a 6 piece bonus? I would sort of agree if they weren’t changing it, but with the changes it’s not that game breaking of a set anymore. Though I completely agree that random procs like that shouldn’t exist in this game.

It’s a completely passive punishment for others doing what the game requires you to do (attack the other person). The 4 piece bonus should be in line with other 4 piece bonuses, which is a minor compliment to the rune set. There are only 2 rune sets that come to mind that we can compare them to. Nightmare/Air runes. The four piece bonus is a very minor compliment to the rune set. The 6th rounds out the set and air is on par with the 4 piece bonus of perplexity.

There are a good amount of 4 piece bonuses that give a condition for being hit. I don’t agree with it, but it’s the pattern that they’ve chosen. While I do agree when comparing the stacks to other 4 piece bonuses this one is stronger than the others for sure, but we won’t know if that holds true until we see the changes to the rest of the runes. Also, it’s better to compare these runes to similar runes, like Krait or Orrian.

Which is what? I think 5% chance to cause chill, bleeding, or poison vs 25%. When you look at those, compare too the 6th piece. It’s mind boggling that they would introduce runes knowing they were a “touchy” subject. It means they admit to entertaining changes to the game they know will not be well received by the players. What does that say about the direction of the game?

If they introduce more rune set to be on par with this one…talk about power creep. Runes of the Balthazar are another set that comes to mind. Was anyone able to get a screen shot of new Balthazar runes?

google.3709:

Willson.8170:

please do not put in perplexity runes!

^

BUT BUT BUT….. what about my….

Perplexity PU mesmer
Perplexity Decap engi
Perplexity Condi warrior ( 9 confussion on interrupt lols)
Perplexity Terrormancer
Perplexity Headshot spam teef!
Perplexity Spirit Ranger

Didn’t you know????

PvP is no longer Player vs. Player, but Perplexity vs. Perplexity.

Brew Pinch.5731:

Yunalesca.9850:

they can always stop shooting.

> Stop shooting

Love how people say this in seriousness as if it isn’t an issue.

“Yeah bro, just stop using any abilities and run away for 15 seconds man, you’ll be OK for sure, EZmode.”

Ridiculous.

That’s in no way ridiculous.

It’s all about control. If I get stunned, my opponent controls the fight, has the advantage and therefor controls my actions.
Option 1: take what he dishes.
Option 2: Use a stunbreaker and get away.

And my opponent also should know that I have only those two options and he will react to them.

If my opponent applies confusion, I also have to act:
Option 1: stop attacking. Sure, I wont kill my opponent within the next seconds, but I wont loose that much life and after the confusion expired, I can attack again.
Option 2: use cleanse. I get rid of the confusion (maybe, depends on the class and cleanse you play and use…)
Option 3: attack and ignore the confusion. Here are two new options possible: I kill my opponent fast enough and finish him. OR I kill myself because I didn’t watch the damage the confusion was dealing.

Confusion, Torment and Retaliation give you as its user a lot of control over the fight and your opponent.

And why the hell shouldn’t I use the “ignorance” or “blindness” of my opponent if he attacks with 10 stacks confusion while I have retaliation?
That would be equaly stupid to a hambow-warrior who would stop chain-ccing you. Or if you fight 1vs1 in a tournament and you’re about to win but than you opponent gets support from two team members and they kill you in a 3vs1. They control the fight, finish you and you should either run or die – and don’t expect any mercy.

If anyone has control over his or her opponent, he or she will use it to win.

Yunalesca.9850:

Brew Pinch.5731:

Yunalesca.9850:

they can always stop shooting.

> Stop shooting

Love how people say this in seriousness as if it isn’t an issue.

“Yeah bro, just stop using any abilities and run away for 15 seconds man, you’ll be OK for sure, EZmode.”

Ridiculous.

That’s in no way ridiculous.

It’s all about control. If I get stunned, my opponent controls the fight, has the advantage and therefor controls my actions.
Option 1: take what he dishes.
Option 2: Use a stunbreaker and get away.

And my opponent also should know that I have only those two options and he will react to them.

If my opponent applies confusion, I also have to act:
Option 1: stop attacking. Sure, I wont kill my opponent within the next seconds, but I wont loose that much life and after the confusion expired, I can attack again.
Option 2: use cleanse. I get rid of the confusion (maybe, depends on the class and cleanse you play and use…)
Option 3: attack and ignore the confusion. Here are two new options possible: I kill my opponent fast enough and finish him. OR I kill myself because I didn’t watch the damage the confusion was dealing.

Confusion, Torment and Retaliation give you as its user a lot of control over the fight and your opponent.

And why the hell shouldn’t I use the “ignorance” or “blindness” of my opponent if he attacks with 10 stacks confusion while I have retaliation?
That would be equaly stupid to a hambow-warrior who would stop chain-ccing you. Or if you fight 1vs1 in a tournament and you’re about to win but than you opponent gets support from two team members and they kill you in a 3vs1. They control the fight, finish you and you should either run or die – and don’t expect any mercy.

If anyone has control over his or her opponent, he or she will use it to win.

runes with condis applied on getting hit on strong condi builds is another nail in the coffin for powerbuilds. imagine you finaly land burst setup and during the channel or burst it procs confusion. so without actual any counterplay u get punished for beating your opponent.

so in your example the one who has control looses it through random proc. so how many skill does that need?

Yunalesca.9850:

[snip]

The problems start showing up when someone who has powerful control through lots of confusion can also already deal significant damage – either through condi or power, but usually condi since it’s improved by the same stat.

It’s similar to (one of several problems with) Hambow Warrior – they have a huge amount of control when they can also dish out heavy damage (and then there’s the sustain and cleanse on top of that). Pin down, currently a barely telegraphed immobilise, followed by a stun chain… it’s a really powerful combination of two aspects of combat, with each attack in the chain doing a lot of damage on a character specced for it.

Why is confusion allowed to damage around 800 per tick but retaliation only allowed to damage around 200?

Farzo.8410:

Why is confusion allowed to damage around 800 per tick but retaliation only allowed to damage around 200?

because retal does not stack in intensity but in duration.

As others have said, there is already too much condi spam. This will make the situation even worse.

Why not add a new rune set instead that is anti condi, and includes a way to transfer condis back to the attacker.

JonathanSharp.7094:

We had a lot of texts/phone calls over the weekend on this, as many of us have been watching this thread.

I just wanted to thank you guys again for keeping it civil and constructive.

Great job arguing your points. It makes it much easier for us to look at your points/counterpoints when you guys do such a great job communicating.

I think that any new nerf/ redesign that could potentially be done to this rune, should focus on lowering the duration and the intensity, instead of adding excessive cooldowns and passive playing.

For example, I think that build-wise and fun-wise, the original nº4 “on hit” effect is a lot more interesting than the new, passive, “on being hit” effect.

I could see nº4 being an “on hit: 3 stacks for 3 seconds (25 second cooldown)”, or even a single stack at a lower cooldown (because a single stack of confusion can still be potentially strong at the right situation), and nº6 offering 3 stacks instead of 5, for 3-5 seconds instead of 8, and keeping the very low 15-sec cooldown it currently has.

Confusion is a condition that is strong even in low numbers, so I would like to see less emphasis on huge cooldowns and passive playing when nerfing, and more on lower-but-still-good number adjustment to the effect itself.

This is in order to preserve how potentially fun this rune can be by its user. If you give it massive cooldowns and passive playing, this rune (and any other receiving the same treatment) becomes “boring” (and mindless) to play with.

style.6173:

As others have said, there is already too much condi spam. This will make the situation even worse.

Why not add a new rune set instead that is anti condi, and includes a way to transfer condis back to the attacker.

Imagine if they added a rune set that was 25% chance when being hit to transfer 2 conditions. What if they made that the four piece bonus and then added for the sixth piece 10% increase to critical damage AND chance on crit to proc 2 second stun! IMAGINE THAT! Then they would add 25% chance when being hit to stun for 4 seconds for the fourth piece and the 6th would be 20% increase to healing AND transfer all conditions to surrounding enemies! It would be glorious, all of us running around getting passively beaten by rune sets!!

Pyriall.5027:

style.6173:

As others have said, there is already too much condi spam. This will make the situation even worse.

Why not add a new rune set instead that is anti condi, and includes a way to transfer condis back to the attacker.

Imagine if they added a rune set that was 25% chance when being hit to transfer 2 conditions. What if they made that the four piece bonus and then added for the sixth piece 10% increase to critical damage AND chance on crit to proc 2 second stun! IMAGINE THAT! Then they would add 25% chance when being hit to stun for 4 seconds for the fourth piece and the 6th would be 20% increase to healing AND transfer all conditions to surrounding enemies! It would be glorious, all of us running around getting passively beaten by rune sets!!

Or how about something not completely kittened like:

1) + 25 Power
2) – 10% Condition Duration
3) + 50 Power
4) – 10% Crowd Control Duration
5) +100 Power
6) 10% Chance on Hit: Transfer 2 conditions to your opponent. (10s cooldown)

Or something like

1) +25 Vita
2) -10% Condition Duration
3) + 50 Vita
4) +10% Boon Duration
5) + 100 Vita
6) 10% Chance to convert 2 conditions into boons when hit (10s cooldown)

Just suggestions… would indeed be nice to give people some sort of counter to all these conditions. It’s already pretty kitten ridiculous how many conditions can get applied in such a short time by just 1 or 2 condi casters….

Even if the added confusion wasn’t really strong (only a stack or two), there would be incentive for condi-classes to take this to improve cover-condis in their condi-bursts (idk why attrition classes can burst btw). Making these a powerful source of confusion makes it a no-brainer for condi classes (esp with fear being an interrupt now) that you can have: burst, control, and sustained damage that is night unbeatable.

IF you have to add perplexity, please start on the weak end and bring them up rather than start with something WAY OP and nerf them down after 6 months-1 year.

google.3709:

BUT BUT BUT….. what about my….

Perplexity PU mesmer
Perplexity Decap engi
Perplexity Condi warrior ( 9 confussion on interrupt lols)
Perplexity Terrormancer
*Perplexity Headshot spam teef! *
Perplexity Spirit Ranger

why spam headshot when mindless meta thieves can simply continue to spam pistol whip, the stun will trigger perplexity too,
so now pistol whip will stun, damage, evade and apply confusion.

Just to clairfy those who think 1 player will spam inturrupts to get 25 stacks of confusion,

IT WILL NOT HAPPEN!

there is a 15s CD on the 6th of this rune. at the most you can get 8 stacks from 1 player. at 1400 condi damage that 1360 damage per skill used until you cleanse confusion.

Brando.1374:

Just to clairfy those who think 1 player will spam inturrupts to get 25 stacks of confusion,

IT WILL NOT HAPPEN!

there is a 15s CD on the 6th of this rune. at the most you can get 8 stacks from 1 player. at 1400 condi damage that 1360 damage per skill used until you cleanse confusion.

But the confusion will still happen either way and it buffs up Engineers already spammable confusion.

Liewec.2896:

google.3709:

BUT BUT BUT….. what about my….

Perplexity PU mesmer
Perplexity Decap engi
Perplexity Condi warrior ( 9 confussion on interrupt lols)
Perplexity Terrormancer
*Perplexity Headshot spam teef! *
Perplexity Spirit Ranger

why spam headshot when mindless meta thieves can simply continue to spam pistol whip, the stun will trigger perplexity too,
so now pistol whip will stun, damage, evade and apply confusion.

And Anet thought that it was not the time yet to nerf PW thiefs, instead they add another powerful tool for them.

JonathanSharp.7094:

We had a lot of texts/phone calls over the weekend on this, as many of us have been watching this thread.

I just wanted to thank you guys again for keeping it civil and constructive.

Great job arguing your points. It makes it much easier for us to look at your points/counterpoints when you guys do such a great job communicating.

translated into human language: thx for talking, nothing will happen, though.

btt: there is no counterpoint to not implement this rune into pvp.

Thoth Divine.8642:

Pyriall.5027:

style.6173:

As others have said, there is already too much condi spam. This will make the situation even worse.

Why not add a new rune set instead that is anti condi, and includes a way to transfer condis back to the attacker.

Imagine if they added a rune set that was 25% chance when being hit to transfer 2 conditions. What if they made that the four piece bonus and then added for the sixth piece 10% increase to critical damage AND chance on crit to proc 2 second stun! IMAGINE THAT! Then they would add 25% chance when being hit to stun for 4 seconds for the fourth piece and the 6th would be 20% increase to healing AND transfer all conditions to surrounding enemies! It would be glorious, all of us running around getting passively beaten by rune sets!!

Or how about something not completely kittened like:

1) + 25 Power
2) – 10% Condition Duration
3) + 50 Power
4) – 10% Crowd Control Duration
5) +100 Power
6) 10% Chance on Hit: Transfer 2 conditions to your opponent. (10s cooldown)

Or something like

1) +25 Vita
2) -10% Condition Duration
3) + 50 Vita
4) +10% Boon Duration
5) + 100 Vita
6) 10% Chance to convert 2 conditions into boons when hit (10s cooldown)

Just suggestions… would indeed be nice to give people some sort of counter to all these conditions. It’s already pretty kitten ridiculous how many conditions can get applied in such a short time by just 1 or 2 condi casters….

I like either option. Probably #6 needs a longer cooldown, but I like the general idea.

JinDaVikk.7291:

Aberrant.6749:

Mrbig.8019:

Lordrosicky.5813:

I wouldn’t mind seeing the 5th bonus go from 5 stacks to 3/4 or something. But I think that is all that is needed. I mean lyysa runes are more OP and we have put up with them for long enough. At least if hambow/condi warrior or thief takes these runes then their sustain will be way way less. This means they will require smarter play and more skill.

The issue is not with thieves.

The issue is with engies that will magnet pull -> pry bar you for 10 stacks of confusion, + pistol 3 + concussion bomb in less than 2 secs, potentially 19 stacks of confusion.

Add this to big ole bomb, shield 4-5, flamethrower and all the kitten. even without flamethrower engi has so many interrupts it’s not even funny.

Or interrupt condi mesmers ( even rampagers Sword/pistol-Staff).

God, it’s going to be ridicolous.

Eng won’t be the biggest problem. L2 Dodge magnet. Srsly it’s not that hard with the obvious wavvy line animation telling you exactly what’s being done.

What is far worse is how unpredictable a necro fear can be. Oh look… he waved his hand with staff… that could only be 1 of 5 different marks which all have the same cast animation (lol asura lil handwaves) and no travel time… so to avoid the confusion I’ll just need to stop attacking for the entire staff spam rotation (not all classes have great access to stability). Yea… that’s gonna be real nice to deal with (sarcasm).

Several issues with your post.
4 marks not 5 for necro.
Staff marks do limited damage compared to scepter.
Engi pull from stealth if you bothered to read has zero animation l2p.
Necros will gain confusion sure… but lose double fear duration. Still very very strong but atleast they take a small hit.

Oops yea 4 my bad.

The limited damage is greatly increased if a fear adds 5 stacks of confusion.

If they are using stealth then they probably just comboed it and it’s short, obvious (look for a smoke field/listen for the blast finishers), has a long cd (smoke bomb + combo is at least 2 cd’s), or they used toss s which means minus one kit (less damage potential). It’s pretty rare that I get pulled from stealth by an eng. It does happen though. With a necro mark it’s just a lil asura handwave no stealth pre-req needed to be effective.

Necro’s with perplexity are getting something that can replace dhummfire. Giving extra potent conditions to necro =’s bad idea.

I get feared far far more than I get pulled by an eng.

I agree there isn’t enough to react to (Eng does have some very fast knockbacks and necro can be hard to read) especially considering the high damage potential of both w/perplexity.

Not saying that perplexity eng is weak, but magnet isn’t a big worry to me.

I would still give it to my necro>eng. Still has a lot of cc, can nom down conds, toss conds back, and can take more of a beating. There will be a lot of cond users running around if they put in perplexity. Eng is weak Vs. conds (outside of 409… and lawl elixirs).

Pyriall.5027:

style.6173:

As others have said, there is already too much condi spam. This will make the situation even worse.

Why not add a new rune set instead that is anti condi, and includes a way to transfer condis back to the attacker.

Imagine if they added a rune set that was 25% chance when being hit to transfer 2 conditions. What if they made that the four piece bonus and then added for the sixth piece 10% increase to critical damage AND chance on crit to proc 2 second stun! IMAGINE THAT! Then they would add 25% chance when being hit to stun for 4 seconds for the fourth piece and the 6th would be 20% increase to healing AND transfer all conditions to surrounding enemies! It would be glorious, all of us running around getting passively beaten by rune sets!!

I hope you never go into game design.

style.6173:

Pyriall.5027:

style.6173:

As others have said, there is already too much condi spam. This will make the situation even worse.

Why not add a new rune set instead that is anti condi, and includes a way to transfer condis back to the attacker.

Imagine if they added a rune set that was 25% chance when being hit to transfer 2 conditions. What if they made that the four piece bonus and then added for the sixth piece 10% increase to critical damage AND chance on crit to proc 2 second stun! IMAGINE THAT! Then they would add 25% chance when being hit to stun for 4 seconds for the fourth piece and the 6th would be 20% increase to healing AND transfer all conditions to surrounding enemies! It would be glorious, all of us running around getting passively beaten by rune sets!!

I hope you never go into game design.

Wow…that went over some heads.

Style is right though, people will continue to run lyssa for the condi clear unless anything else can do it better..

Nerfing lyssa and boosting condi spread is just further polarising the matchup between offensive direct damage and condi dps. Let’s hope some other runes can fill that gap,

Oh and just to point out that learning to duel condi burst when you lack adequate condi removal is one of the toughest mechanical things to learn in the game, and will certainly not entice perspective players to commit to spvp…

If Unholy Martyr stacks with Plague Signets passive it will transfer 2 conditions from an ally to you while in DS every 3 seconds (only matters in team fights). Two weapon skills that transfer 3 conditions to a foe on 18s and 25s cd’s and a full transfer on a 60s cd plus a full cleanse on a 25s cd and a well that converts one condition per character per second for 5 seconds on a 50s cd. If there are condi transfer sigils and better retaliation runes for upkeep I’m interested in how much transfer upkeep one can have.

It would be so clutch to xfer 25 stacks of confusion plus every condition to a target and use epidemic.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vQAQNAnYWjc00dbPNe2whjCQqAvTP6ebAgKsLlC3RH-TIAgzCmA

Phaeton.9582:

Style is right though, people will continue to run lyssa for the condi clear unless anything else can do it better..

Nerfing lyssa and boosting condi spread is just further polarising the matchup between offensive direct damage and condi dps. Let’s hope some other runes can fill that gap,

Oh and just to point out that learning to duel condi burst when you lack adequate condi removal is one of the toughest mechanical things to learn in the game, and will certainly not entice perspective players to commit to spvp…

Not really. Condi spread is being nerfed on necro severly as no burning = a big deal.

Besides condi removal and condi immunity skills/traits are hard counters to condi specs and condi classes. Necro, engi and ranger are all pigeon holed into such specs. And they are way worse than thief, warrior and guardian which are the dominant classes in PvP. So it is silly to say that condi dps is really powerful when the condi classes are generally less helpful classes in pvp.

Lyssa nerf is the best thing possible for the game because it reduces sustain. If a warrior wants to still have god-mode vs any condis in any fight then they can still run signet of stamina. This time they have to give up something to take something. Lyssa will still be exceptional vs condi classes and condi builds. But now it isn’t just exceptional in all circumstances irrespective of how it is used. It is completely game destroying in a way I doubt perplexity runes will be.

Honestly, I think all the vested interests are at work in this thread and other threads. People want easy mode lyssa carried builds to be retained because they are afraid of being outclassed when they have to use their brain. No more dodging twice before you get to a fight and not being punished. That is the dream. Nerfing lyssa is one step closer to a skilled game.

The current meta is incredibly horrible. That is why people quit. And that is why new players probably will never bother with the game for more a few moments. Lyssa is a huge part of that meta. It is the meta where skill is an afterthought. O you tanked everything vs this class, np here is lyssa with full condi cleanse, regen, block, aegis AND your elite every 45 seconds so you can now not die and have another go. People “rotating” like “pros” to points where they know there are going to get 1v2 ed and not being punished because lyssa gives them the time they need to survive and for more bunkers/sustain classes (with lyssa probably) to arrive, or it gives them the time they need to escape. How often does a thief escape even fights vs 2 non-condi classes due to lyssa? Very often and it is incredibly frsutrating, overpowered and skill-less because it doesn’t punish poor decision making like running into 2 people. All that for just clicking 1 button.. Player vs point. Bunker wars 2. The biggest culrpit is and always has been lyssa runes.

Maybe give anet the credit they deserve. This patch looks amazing on EVERY change they are doing. Literally every change. Lyssa is huge, no more get out of jail free cards. Nerfs to warrior mean we might finally see the masses of top 200 (ish) warriors disapear overnight. Thief nerfs could help also. Decap engi nerfs make solo q playable again. Dhuumfire nerf reduces some of the most aggresive condi spam significantly.

Pyriall.5027:

style.6173:

Pyriall.5027:

style.6173:

As others have said, there is already too much condi spam. This will make the situation even worse.

Why not add a new rune set instead that is anti condi, and includes a way to transfer condis back to the attacker.

Imagine if they added a rune set that was 25% chance when being hit to transfer 2 conditions. What if they made that the four piece bonus and then added for the sixth piece 10% increase to critical damage AND chance on crit to proc 2 second stun! IMAGINE THAT! Then they would add 25% chance when being hit to stun for 4 seconds for the fourth piece and the 6th would be 20% increase to healing AND transfer all conditions to surrounding enemies! It would be glorious, all of us running around getting passively beaten by rune sets!!

I hope you never go into game design.

Wow…that went over some heads.

Your sarcasm was so poor, I had to assume you were serious.

Not sure if that rant was aimed at me Lordsicky, I spend my time these days powning top 100 terror necros and hambows alike on my dps guard.

But I only have two condi cleanses and lyssa is one of them. I can spec for two more but this makes the matchup substantially weaker due to the drop in dps. It’s not a hard counter at all.

Phaeton.9582:

Not sure if that rant was aimed at me Lordsicky, I spend my time these days powning top 100 terror necros and hambows alike on my dps guard.

But I only have two condi cleanses and lyssa is one of them. I can spec for two more but this makes the matchup substantially weaker due to the drop in dps. It’s not a hard counter at all.

dps guard is super strong 1v1, its just absolutely useless in teamq’s

Phaeton.9582:

Not sure if that rant was aimed at me Lordsicky, I spend my time these days powning top 100 terror necros and hambows alike on my dps guard.

But I only have two condi cleanses and lyssa is one of them. I can spec for two more but this makes the matchup substantially weaker due to the drop in dps. It’s not a hard counter at all.

Soldier hambow warrior doesn’t die to dps guard 1v1. It just.. doesn’t.

style.6173:

As others have said, there is already too much condi spam. This will make the situation even worse.

Why not add a new rune set instead that is anti condi, and includes a way to transfer condis back to the attacker.

We technically already have run set that is anti condi and anti stun (melandru) along with lyssa runes. I’m curious as to how melandru will be adjusted in the upcoming patch.

We also have a sigil that transfers a condition to your enemy on crit (generosity).

Proven.2854:

style.6173:

As others have said, there is already too much condi spam. This will make the situation even worse.

Why not add a new rune set instead that is anti condi, and includes a way to transfer condis back to the attacker.

We technically already have run set that is anti condi and anti stun (melandru) along with lyssa runes. I’m curious as to how melandru will be adjusted in the upcoming patch.

We also have a sigil that transfers a condition to your enemy on crit (generosity).

Runes of Melandru were flashed in the last Ready Up episode. They were the same as they are, on live.

KarsaiB.9475:

Soldier hambow warrior doesn’t die to dps guard 1v1. It just.. doesn’t.

I made a new build karsaib, and it really can..

I was quite shocked the first time it happened too

ukuni.8745:

JonathanSharp.7094:

I probably shouldn’t be reading the forums at 10:45 on a Friday night….but I am.

1) Thanks for talking about this in such a constructive manner. A lot of you guys are bringing up great points with highly cogent logic. I like. I like how you’re bringing up possible issues in multiple game types as well, kudos for espousing a holistic point of view.

2) There are going to be a lot of changes, as we’ve stated before on the 15th. The meta will probably shift a lot for many areas of the game, so we’ll have to see how things shake out.

3) Please keep the talking open, rational, and with as little salt as possible – you guys are rocking. We are listening, and I’ll check this thread next week to see how the conversation goes.

Thanks for keeping it civil.

/Chapout

will you be prepared to remove it on a moments notice if the majority want it removed its pritty clear we don’t want it now and with the meta getting a good shake it might not be that bad but if it doesn’t pan out the way you would like it to will anet be prepared to remove it quickly or will it be some balance patch 6-9 months later?

Sorry, but the forum goers are ‘a very, very small minority’ and as such not representative of the majority’s opinion.

Anyhow, I fully support the addition of new runes to shake up the meta.
Naturally, the next in line should be dire stats, as to eliminate as many barriers between pve and pvp as possible and in turn attract even more players to pvp.

Bunker guards are going to have so much fun trying to cleanse party conditions…

LordKael.7260:

Bunker guards are going to have so much fun trying to cleanse party conditions…

Nah, they’ll just run Plex themselves.

Phaeton.9582:

Not sure if that rant was aimed at me Lordsicky, I spend my time these days powning top 100 terror necros and hambows alike on my dps guard.

But I only have two condi cleanses and lyssa is one of them. I can spec for two more but this makes the matchup substantially weaker due to the drop in dps. It’s not a hard counter at all.

No it wasn’t really.

As for beating warriors. Sure you can do it on any class. But the issue is you have to play amazing to do it whilst they play terrible. The issue with warrior and lyssa runes is how easy it is to play. This is why there are so many warriors able to play at an effective level. Same with thief.

It just isn’t fair. I could deal with classes being OP when played by top players. I can’t deal with warriors and thieves being OP when played by almost anyone. It just ruins the whole game when the strongest builds are also really really easy to play.

OFC there are minor differences. A really good player can do more with his warrior. But it is too easy to do well.

That is my point. Wasn’t directed at you or anyone really. Just a general rant

Also people need to remember they buffed the condi removal sigil and the condi transfer sigil. This is huge. For bunker guards they should be even more unkillable now as they can cure another condi every 9 seconds passively via their sigil. And classes with crit chance can transfer the condi every 9 seconds. Both very strong if lacking condi removal.

Please check the decision once again. It is not funny to use this runes or to play against them. I guess if you remove it from PvP and PvE all people will be happier without it at the end.

It is not pandoras box. Remove them and we all will be happier. The WvW player will also like the decision to remove it after a while.

keep in mind.

lyssa runes dude come on they have ruined this game for long enough confusion only does dmg if you use skills through it you can remove it and you can counter it and its time to end this bunker meta with sustained dmg its ruined the game for months now this change is amazing thanks anet for doing something so positive for the game. oh and oh and btw if your getting interupted by a mace youll be standing there doing nothing ie not using skills therefor taking only melee dmg then you come out of stun and you just remove the condition or wait for it to be over. just because people are going to have to rethink their builds your qqing? A change is gonna come, lets move forward and give up on easy mode bunker wars.

Jomo kenyatta.7351:

keep in mind.

lyssa runes dude come on they have ruined this game for long enough confusion only does dmg if you use skills through it you can remove it and you can counter it and its time to end this bunker meta with sustained dmg its ruined the game for months now this change is amazing thanks anet for doing something so positive for the game. oh and oh and btw if your getting interupted by a mace youll be standing there doing nothing ie not using skills therefor taking only melee dmg then you come out of stun and you just remove the condition or wait for it to be over. just because people are going to have to rethink their builds your qqing? A change is gonna come, lets move forward and give up on easy mode bunker wars.

Bad idea to just sit there while an eng/necro has a myriad of other conditions ticking away on a player and wait for the confusion to wear off.

Unless you have a full cleanse good luck removing all of them to get to the stuff you want to remove as well.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Naturally, the next in line should be dire stats, as to eliminate as many barriers between pve and pvp as possible and in turn attract even more players to pvp.

I hope you’re joking, since the last thing spvp needs is more access to passive play….

cheese.4739:

LordKael.7260:

Bunker guards are going to have so much fun trying to cleanse party conditions…

Nah, they’ll just run Plex themselves.

I would probably leave the game if I ever saw a guardian run perplexity runes. They are pretty useless with them.

Yunalesca.9850:

If my opponent applies confusion, I also have to act:
Option 1: stop attacking. Sure, I wont kill my opponent within the next seconds, but I wont loose that much life and after the confusion expired, I can attack again.

As a Engineer that plays a confusion stacking spec already, I can say with absolute surety that I won’t just stop attacking because my opponent has. He stops attacking because and I wreck him with everything else I have.

With Perplexity runes, confusion will be lasting 8 seconds even on ability casts, that is a really long time to not be attacking if you can’t afford to cleanse.

You will lose much life.

Yunalesca.9850:

Option 2: use cleanse. I get rid of the confusion (maybe, depends on the class and cleanse you play and use…)

Absolutely, but now everyone must stack vast amounts of cleanse to be sure they’ll be able to remove all buffer conditions as well as the confusion. If this takes multiple casts, you’ve just taken 3000-4500+ damage, half health for some, applicable every 15 kittening seconds.

Many seem to be mistaking this thread as an discussion that confusion itself is too strong and arguing to that end, rather it is an discussion pointing out that Perplexity runes themselves make confusion too strong through being too easy to stack at too greater duration.

As a confusion Engi main, I stand to gain from this addition significantly.

But I’m worried this will strong arm anyone who doesn’t want to run Perplexity Confusion builds or Bunker cleanse builds out of PvP and off to other games, because no-one wants to get wrecked constantly by such obviously cheesy runes.

There are no incoming runes which buff crit burst by 40%, because it’s already powerful.

There are no incoming runes which buff passive regen by vast amounts, because it’s already powerful.

Why then add runes which buff confusion to such an incredible degree? Because it’s already powerful enough.

My suggestion would be to nerf Perplexity down to be on par with other runesets because WvW still has to deal with this bullkitten. How about:

(1) +25 Condi Dam
(2) +10% Condi Duration
(3) +50 Condi Dam
(4) % Chance to strip boon on hit (Cooldown: x seconds)
(5) +100 Condi Dam
(6) 5 Stacks of Confusion on interrupt for 5 seconds (Cooldown: 25 seconds)

That’s still a powerful runeset that I’d use and is possible to base an entire build around.

Chaith.8256:

Proven.2854:

style.6173:

As others have said, there is already too much condi spam. This will make the situation even worse.

Why not add a new rune set instead that is anti condi, and includes a way to transfer condis back to the attacker.

We technically already have run set that is anti condi and anti stun (melandru) along with lyssa runes. I’m curious as to how melandru will be adjusted in the upcoming patch.

We also have a sigil that transfers a condition to your enemy on crit (generosity).

Runes of Melandru were flashed in the last Ready Up episode. They were the same as they are, on live.

That’s unfortunate.