Guild Wars 2

We all know just how ridiculous it is to get collateral damage from someone else’s poor performance and lose points because other people in the team didn’t contribute enough, or even worse, went afk or simply disconnected, leaving the rest of the team completely impaired.

Say your team loses a match, but you did a lot more than your team mates; you capped points, defended them, scored player kills, rezzed people, etc… And if you lost by a relatively small margin, even, then all that should be taken into account. Meaning, some of your team mates would end up losing a pip, but you wouldn’t. Now, obviously, gaining a pip for losing would be out of the question, because players would just end up farming points and losing on purpose, or just not even trying at all, but what about not losing a pip? Players want to progress to higher divisions, so they know that they still have to play to win. I think that’d be a way to combat that. Regardless, this is pretty much the general idea.

I reckon this sounds like a really good idea. Now, mind you, not losing a pip for losing a match would only happen assuming you did and contributed enough. What this basically does is encourage people to try harder and give it all they got. They know they can’t just sit around and do nothing if they realize their team’s gonna lose, because if they don’t contribute to the match enough they’ll still lose a pip.

This whole idea is still in its infancy, but I really hope a dev or two ends up stopping by this thread to take a look, and, hopefully, consider adding this system (or a similar one) to PvP Leagues. I know criticism, analysis and suggestions rarely get taken into account, but I still had to come here and share this little concept with you.

At the end of the day I’m sure most of you know or have gone through the struggle of getting affected by other players’ wrong doings. Granted, it’s a team game, but everyone ends up having different performances, and I think that should definitely be taken into account.

No, I don’t think that is a good idea. The first reason is for instance when double capping you are not being efficient for the team but both players are increasing thier contribution amount. The second reason is that sometimes not “contributing” is very important. As an example, I have been delegated by the team to stay close because otherwise the team would decap it with their thief . Did I contibute: yes I was an essential part of the team that did his performance very well: close was protected from the thief as was my team role. Would my “contibution” look good by the measurement: hell no, I fought maybe one or two battles, killed nobody and capped one node.

Evan Lesh.3295:

The changes for season 2 will make this less of a problem. Each team will have a tight MMR grouping such that each teammate should be very similar in skill to you. This is different from season 1 and unranked where we balance players on each team, i.e, high MMR and both sides and low MMR on both sides.

The goal is to ensure than if the higher skilled team wins, all the higher MMR players go up the ladder. Less unlucky high MMR players will drop on the ladder, and fewer low MMR players will get carried up the ladder.

So if you’re unlucky and got matched with a low MMR team, you will keep losing and have no way to recover?

Evan Lesh.3295:

You wouldn’t be matched with a low MMR team unless you also have low MMR.

You will reset MMR at the start of season 2, right? Right?

Evan Lesh.3295:

Sunshine.5014:

Evan Lesh.3295:

The changes for season 2 will make this less of a problem. Each team will have a tight MMR grouping such that each teammate should be very similar in skill to you. This is different from season 1 and unranked where we balance players on each team, i.e, high MMR and both sides and low MMR on both sides.

The goal is to ensure than if the higher skilled team wins, all the higher MMR players go up the ladder. Less unlucky high MMR players will drop on the ladder, and fewer low MMR players will get carried up the ladder.

So if you’re unlucky and got matched with a low MMR team, you will keep losing and have no way to recover?

You wouldn’t be matched with a low MMR team unless you also have low MMR.

But what about the opposing team? If the system’s going to choose team mates as skilled as us, then what about the enemy players? What if we get paired up against enemy players with a much higher MMR?

Evan Lesh.3295:

Avectius.3271:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Sunshine.5014:

Evan Lesh.3295:

The changes for season 2 will make this less of a problem. Each team will have a tight MMR grouping such that each teammate should be very similar in skill to you. This is different from season 1 and unranked where we balance players on each team, i.e, high MMR and both sides and low MMR on both sides.

The goal is to ensure than if the higher skilled team wins, all the higher MMR players go up the ladder. Less unlucky high MMR players will drop on the ladder, and fewer low MMR players will get carried up the ladder.

So if you’re unlucky and got matched with a low MMR team, you will keep losing and have no way to recover?

You wouldn’t be matched with a low MMR team unless you also have low MMR.

But what about the opposing team? If the system’s going to choose team mates as skilled as us, then what about the enemy players? What if we get paired up against enemy players with a much higher MMR?

Then that would mean either you climbed to high in divisions and you need to drop some, or the other team isn’t high enough yet and they are climbing out.

But loosing or even dropping divisions is not fun. People want to see progress because the permanent pvp progression system (rank 1-80 was made laughable short) is no longer of interest.

Malediktus.9250:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Avectius.3271:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Sunshine.5014:

Evan Lesh.3295:

The changes for season 2 will make this less of a problem. Each team will have a tight MMR grouping such that each teammate should be very similar in skill to you. This is different from season 1 and unranked where we balance players on each team, i.e, high MMR and both sides and low MMR on both sides.

The goal is to ensure than if the higher skilled team wins, all the higher MMR players go up the ladder. Less unlucky high MMR players will drop on the ladder, and fewer low MMR players will get carried up the ladder.

So if you’re unlucky and got matched with a low MMR team, you will keep losing and have no way to recover?

You wouldn’t be matched with a low MMR team unless you also have low MMR.

But what about the opposing team? If the system’s going to choose team mates as skilled as us, then what about the enemy players? What if we get paired up against enemy players with a much higher MMR?

Then that would mean either you climbed to high in divisions and you need to drop some, or the other team isn’t high enough yet and they are climbing out.

But loosing or even dropping divisions is not fun. People want to see progress because the permanent pvp progression system (rank 1-80 was made laughable short) is no longer of interest.

In the “everyone wins” mentality the leagues mean nothing. They should represent skill level, and not cater to people’s desire to always get more, more, more.

Malediktus.9250:

But loosing or even dropping divisions is not fun. People want to see progress because the permanent pvp progression system (rank 1-80 was made laughable short) is no longer of interest.

if we say that divisions reflect the skill lvl of players then amber – new guy, legendary – pro player (esl top 3 monthly contender) if system will work to reflect your “skill level” then for most it will be impossible to go higher then their max division (noob not higher then amber, somwhat skillz emerlad, average guy saphire, higher then average – decent – ruby, good player diamond and MLG noscoper – legendary).

If you think you that people can rise their level of playing from let’s say
ruby to diamond in 2 months then you are beeing delusional, just ask aboout those who playing in pro league how long it took them to get to the point where are they now.
Yes you can improve for some time because of mechnical improvement and better reflects after constant playing adn tryharding but that’s +1 of your division max in your timeframe.
Right now system is like, you are solid saphire (if we grade divisions by skill level) but if you play alot then you can get soloq legendary with no problems.

If i’m just a emerald scrub and game will reflect that and iw ill see that in for ex-le most ruby, all diamond and all legendary players are better then me in pvp I’m fine that the game will keep me in saphire untill it gives me challenging games I agree with that.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Sunshine.5014:

Evan Lesh.3295:

The changes for season 2 will make this less of a problem. Each team will have a tight MMR grouping such that each teammate should be very similar in skill to you. This is different from season 1 and unranked where we balance players on each team, i.e, high MMR and both sides and low MMR on both sides.

The goal is to ensure than if the higher skilled team wins, all the higher MMR players go up the ladder. Less unlucky high MMR players will drop on the ladder, and fewer low MMR players will get carried up the ladder.

So if you’re unlucky and got matched with a low MMR team, you will keep losing and have no way to recover?

You wouldn’t be matched with a low MMR team unless you also have low MMR.

How will you determine that when the season 2 starts and everyone is at 0 MMR based on your earlier quote? Or are you planning to carry over MMR from Season 1? Please elaborate your plan.

I have lost 12-14 matches straight and won 7-8 matches straight. And that happens within same division and tier range. You have my account. You can look it up. What you are describing can be extremely dangerous (if not worse than season 1) if someone simply gets stuck in lower divisions because of bad matchmaking luck.

Hvaran.6327:

Right now system is like, you are solid saphire (if we grade divisions by skill level) but if you play alot then you can get soloq legendary with no problems.

The problem is simple: ANET merged Random Solo Play with Team based Play to make PvP attractive for the masses. And they actually succeeded, IMHO. Many people get to HotM to do dailies, play PvP for kitten ‘n giggles. Now, that’s all good. But, now they introduced league system with shiny PvE rewards in PvP. So, if they want to implement your logic and skill segregation by division, they need to literally go back how PvP was in GW1 and also in the initial days of GW2. They need to bring back zergjoin and Solo Q. And that’s not gonna happen for sure. So, ANET will have to provide means for emerald heroes to complete Meta and a path to legendary regardless what they say for PR.

This type of game moves from meta to meta. Individual skill has really very little to do with it in a team of 3 good and 2 horribads losing against 5 semi-goods playing the meta. In most cases, you will find hardly 100 players who are skilled in a mass of 1000+ playing. And that’s an overly optimistic view of GW2’s PvP. Will they focus on 100 or the 1000?

It’s still random.

Very good mmr player and well skilled player X plays DH he can wreck necro’s, Ele, And revs, but he cannot wreck mesmer, druid. (this is not a fact, just an example).

That same players plays well together with Elementalist and druid for their support, but plays like kitten with a necro, cause they don’t offer support, nor use the trap boon support DH gives, and neither good with engineer.

If that player gets teamed (with almost equal mmr) players with following profs: Engineer, necro, thief warrior

Enemy has mesmer druid,, revenant, engineer, elementalist.

The rock paper scissor is NOT in his favor. He has 70-80% likelyness to loose.

Now the match is with same players, but shuffled roster.

He plays with, Revenant, Mesmer, druid, Elemtanlist,

Enemy has Thief, Necromancer, warrior, Engineer, and 2nd Engie.

This time he has 70% likeliness to win.

Anet: ‘but but ladder system is much better then in past’

No it isn’t. With the huge meta swing (like mesmer will probably be DUST and still be played a lot – making all teams having a mesmer suck), it will make the teams with Druid, necro, Thief, Engi and rev the strongest.

Teams with other profs will suffer.

There’s at least 30% of my losses, that are not truly lost because of player skill, or making rotation skills. It’s because the rock paper scissors, eated you.

Salamander.2504:

Malediktus.9250:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Avectius.3271:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Sunshine.5014:

Evan Lesh.3295:

The changes for season 2 will make this less of a problem. Each team will have a tight MMR grouping such that each teammate should be very similar in skill to you. This is different from season 1 and unranked where we balance players on each team, i.e, high MMR and both sides and low MMR on both sides.

The goal is to ensure than if the higher skilled team wins, all the higher MMR players go up the ladder. Less unlucky high MMR players will drop on the ladder, and fewer low MMR players will get carried up the ladder.

So if you’re unlucky and got matched with a low MMR team, you will keep losing and have no way to recover?

You wouldn’t be matched with a low MMR team unless you also have low MMR.

But what about the opposing team? If the system’s going to choose team mates as skilled as us, then what about the enemy players? What if we get paired up against enemy players with a much higher MMR?

Then that would mean either you climbed to high in divisions and you need to drop some, or the other team isn’t high enough yet and they are climbing out.

But loosing or even dropping divisions is not fun. People want to see progress because the permanent pvp progression system (rank 1-80 was made laughable short) is no longer of interest.

In the “everyone wins” mentality the leagues mean nothing. They should represent skill level, and not cater to people’s desire to always get more, more, more.

Skill level lol. This game will never be about skill. MMOs are about progression, if you want skilled gameplay, play games like LoL, Dota, etc.
Everyone who is above average should be able to reach legendary division if they put in enough effort, not just ESL like players. They got their ESL stuff for themselves already.

Evan Lesh.3295:

The changes for season 2 will make this less of a problem. Each team will have a tight MMR grouping such that each teammate should be very similar in skill to you. This is different from season 1 and unranked where we balance players on each team, i.e, high MMR and both sides and low MMR on both sides.

The goal is to ensure than if the higher skilled team wins, all the higher MMR players go up the ladder. Less unlucky high MMR players will drop on the ladder, and fewer low MMR players will get carried up the ladder.

Am I right that the intention of this system is to enable high MMR players to climb very very quickly? I’m just trying to understand why this would be better than a reset – I’m guessing because given a reset, it will still take a long time for ESL players to climb up just because of the element of randomness that is involved. The downside of the system you are proposing is that during the first couple weeks, there will be hugely one sided matches (I’m guessing you guys see this as a necessary evil – but perhaps it should be publicized before you get huge numbers of people whining) – however, after that the high mmr players will be in high divisions and it won’t be as much of an issue.

Malediktus.9250:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Avectius.3271:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Sunshine.5014:

Evan Lesh.3295:

The changes for season 2 will make this less of a problem. Each team will have a tight MMR grouping such that each teammate should be very similar in skill to you. This is different from season 1 and unranked where we balance players on each team, i.e, high MMR and both sides and low MMR on both sides.

The goal is to ensure than if the higher skilled team wins, all the higher MMR players go up the ladder. Less unlucky high MMR players will drop on the ladder, and fewer low MMR players will get carried up the ladder.

So if you’re unlucky and got matched with a low MMR team, you will keep losing and have no way to recover?

You wouldn’t be matched with a low MMR team unless you also have low MMR.

But what about the opposing team? If the system’s going to choose team mates as skilled as us, then what about the enemy players? What if we get paired up against enemy players with a much higher MMR?

Then that would mean either you climbed to high in divisions and you need to drop some, or the other team isn’t high enough yet and they are climbing out.

But loosing or even dropping divisions is not fun. People want to see progress because the permanent pvp progression system (rank 1-80 was made laughable short) is no longer of interest.

Everyone doesn’t deserve a trophy. Not everyone is good at this game.

Imo Evan, there are still huge outlying factors that snowballs the game, causing either a high pip loss for either team.

One being Build Wars 2 and good comp vs a bad comp. A perfecy example is a team of guardians and necros vs a team of eles and revs… ele and revs will win 100% of the time thanks to bunker ele’s snowballing the man.

Your best mmr algorithm doesn’t count in comp diversity & build diversity. Mmr RNG will always make one sided matches like I described.

Was really looking forward to ranked but the way everything has been implemented is easily the worst I have seen in any MMO.

Think you might have one more shot with season 2, that is if anyone still trusts the company.

Saiyan.1704:

Imo Evan, there are still huge outlying factors that snowballs the game, causing either a high pip loss for either team.

One being Build Wars 2 and good comp vs a bad comp. A perfecy example is a team of guardians and necros vs a team of eles and revs… ele and revs will win 100% of the time thanks to bunker ele’s snowballing the man.

Your best mmr algorithm doesn’t count in comp diversity & build diversity. Mmr RNG will always make one sided matches like I described.

Comp diversity and build diversity is the players responsibility. If you think your comp is weak, switch professions during the ready up time.

Pyriall.1683:

Saiyan.1704:

Imo Evan, there are still huge outlying factors that snowballs the game, causing either a high pip loss for either team.

One being Build Wars 2 and good comp vs a bad comp. A perfecy example is a team of guardians and necros vs a team of eles and revs… ele and revs will win 100% of the time thanks to bunker ele’s snowballing the man.

Your best mmr algorithm doesn’t count in comp diversity & build diversity. Mmr RNG will always make one sided matches like I described.

Comp diversity and build diversity is the players responsibility. If you think your comp is weak, switch professions during the ready up time.

I agree but that’s not what solo players are going to do, let alone what they want to hear. Players expect games to be balanced until they get a blow out game because of their comp or build utilizations. Then they question matchmaking for placing stacked thieves against stacked guardian comps.

You know as well as I do that there’s only, maybe, 1 person per team that’s willing to swap classes on any given match.

What we really need is a smarter matchmaking, placing players on a team after mmr picks them for a game.

ANet is going to do their best to quick-sort higher skilled players into the “proper” division (i.e. BRACKET).

Strict brackets are CRITICAL in this game because of the potential sophistication of the combat system. Better players can be MUCH more effective on complex classes and rotations than newer/less skilled players.

The Dunning Kruger effect is very strong in GW2 (Google it). Those who are not even AWARE of what is possible think the combat system is simple.

It’s not. Map awareness, combos, rotation intuition, quick reflexes, baiting, feinting, and many other factors come into play at higher skill levels.

The big question is..

Will we get Leshreaver miniatures in 2016?

Evan Lesh.3295:

Kevin.4209:

Evan Lesh.3295:

The changes for season 2 will make this less of a problem. Each team will have a tight MMR grouping such that each teammate should be very similar in skill to you. This is different from season 1 and unranked where we balance players on each team, i.e, high MMR and both sides and low MMR on both sides.

The goal is to ensure than if the higher skilled team wins, all the higher MMR players go up the ladder. Less unlucky high MMR players will drop on the ladder, and fewer low MMR players will get carried up the ladder.

Am I right that the intention of this system is to enable high MMR players to climb very very quickly? I’m just trying to understand why this would be better than a reset – I’m guessing because given a reset, it will still take a long time for ESL players to climb up just because of the element of randomness that is involved. The downside of the system you are proposing is that during the first couple weeks, there will be hugely one sided matches (I’m guessing you guys see this as a necessary evil – but perhaps it should be publicized before you get huge numbers of people whining) – however, after that the high mmr players will be in high divisions and it won’t be as much of an issue.

That is one goal of the system. With an MMR reset, it would only create instability (ability to climb) for a short while. Part of having the ladder better represent skill is that the beginning of the season will be chaotic as everyone fights out of amber.

I still think you need to reset MMR because you will be making massive changes to the meta and severely nerfing the effectiveness of some classes.

I expect people that mained those classes that were previously legendary to drop to playing at ruby or even sapphire level as they are forced to switch classes or builds. And they will distort matchmaking next season if you do not reset MMR.

Phaeton.9582:

The big question is..

Will we get Leshreaver miniatures in 2016?

First off I want one of these. Lol this should be a reward track. Thankyou for all your responses, Mr. Lesh.

Just a suggestion:
Secondly, in matches where a team loses a player due to a disconnection.. Neither award nor take away any points (unless on the off chance the team with less people wins) This is like a true forfeit. So that no one innocent is harmed, nor can it be manipulated so people leave on purpose.

Thirdly, The person who “disconnected”, should lose one pip and suffer dishonor.

Phoebe Ascension.8437:

It’s still random.

Very good mmr player and well skilled player X plays DH he can wreck necro’s, Ele, And revs, but he cannot wreck mesmer, druid. (this is not a fact, just an example).

That same players plays well together with Elementalist and druid for their support, but plays like kitten with a necro, cause they don’t offer support, nor use the trap boon support DH gives, and neither good with engineer.

If that player gets teamed (with almost equal mmr) players with following profs: Engineer, necro, thief warrior

Enemy has mesmer druid,, revenant, engineer, elementalist.

The rock paper scissor is NOT in his favor. He has 70-80% likelyness to loose.

Now the match is with same players, but shuffled roster.

He plays with, Revenant, Mesmer, druid, Elemtanlist,

Enemy has Thief, Necromancer, warrior, Engineer, and 2nd Engie.

This time he has 70% likeliness to win.

Anet: ‘but but ladder system is much better then in past’

No it isn’t. With the huge meta swing (like mesmer will probably be DUST and still be played a lot – making all teams having a mesmer suck), it will make the teams with Druid, necro, Thief, Engi and rev the strongest.

Teams with other profs will suffer.

There’s at least 30% of my losses, that are not truly lost because of player skill, or making rotation skills. It’s because the rock paper scissors, eated you.

This. You are missing the point of much of the frustration with and calculating individually over just the team. Likewise, if you are on a team and everyone’s having a bad day, why should you be punished for issues outside of your control? A lot of people don’t care about the latter rank (me included) but that rewards such as the backpiece are gated behind other players doing as well as I do. I shouldn’t be pushed because of them.

Evan Lesh.3295:

The changes for season 2 will make this less of a problem. Each team will have a tight MMR grouping such that each teammate should be very similar in skill to you. This is different from season 1 and unranked where we balance players on each team, i.e, high MMR and both sides and low MMR on both sides.

The goal is to ensure than if the higher skilled team wins, all the higher MMR players go up the ladder. Less unlucky high MMR players will drop on the ladder, and fewer low MMR players will get carried up the ladder.

This will end badly….

Number one: Last season we had people pairing up to exploit mmr…. what’s going to happen this season? One player with an alt account will tank his mmr. Then team up and play decent with a friend. They’re going to perform significantly better than expected and increase both mmr artificially. Then the artificially high player will get amazing teams for a very long time.

Number two: This doesn’t make any sense given the impact team composition has on the game. You may have significantly ridiculously better skills then the other team but if they’re rock and you’re paper you’re not going to win. The hard counter concept will be wildly exasperated with the current suggested changes. So why is that bad? because you get 3 or 4 unlucky games in a row with bad comp and you’re stuck playing with terrible players indefinitely because you’ve put all the players you think are good on the other team. It’ll take a really long time to come out of that slump that the vast majority of people trying the season won’t bother with.

Considering I often have win and loss streaks going on for 10+ games at a time, I feel like this new system will ruin it.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Kevin.4209:

Evan Lesh.3295:

The changes for season 2 will make this less of a problem. Each team will have a tight MMR grouping such that each teammate should be very similar in skill to you. This is different from season 1 and unranked where we balance players on each team, i.e, high MMR and both sides and low MMR on both sides.

The goal is to ensure than if the higher skilled team wins, all the higher MMR players go up the ladder. Less unlucky high MMR players will drop on the ladder, and fewer low MMR players will get carried up the ladder.

Am I right that the intention of this system is to enable high MMR players to climb very very quickly? I’m just trying to understand why this would be better than a reset – I’m guessing because given a reset, it will still take a long time for ESL players to climb up just because of the element of randomness that is involved. The downside of the system you are proposing is that during the first couple weeks, there will be hugely one sided matches (I’m guessing you guys see this as a necessary evil – but perhaps it should be publicized before you get huge numbers of people whining) – however, after that the high mmr players will be in high divisions and it won’t be as much of an issue.

That is one goal of the system. With an MMR reset, it would only create instability (ability to climb) for a short while. Part of having the ladder better represent skill is that the beginning of the season will be chaotic as everyone fights out of amber.

Evan, if you guys can’t make the pips based on one’s self, you really need to start looking into a different way to allow solo’qers to gain pips by their own skill. Having to worry about getting a decent group of RANDOM people is not the way to handle this. I get it, it’s 5v5 or whatever. but no one EVER talks so it’s not like most people are working together anyway…

Evan Lesh.3295:

Kevin.4209:

Evan Lesh.3295:

The changes for season 2 will make this less of a problem. Each team will have a tight MMR grouping such that each teammate should be very similar in skill to you. This is different from season 1 and unranked where we balance players on each team, i.e, high MMR and both sides and low MMR on both sides.

The goal is to ensure than if the higher skilled team wins, all the higher MMR players go up the ladder. Less unlucky high MMR players will drop on the ladder, and fewer low MMR players will get carried up the ladder.

Am I right that the intention of this system is to enable high MMR players to climb very very quickly? I’m just trying to understand why this would be better than a reset – I’m guessing because given a reset, it will still take a long time for ESL players to climb up just because of the element of randomness that is involved. The downside of the system you are proposing is that during the first couple weeks, there will be hugely one sided matches (I’m guessing you guys see this as a necessary evil – but perhaps it should be publicized before you get huge numbers of people whining) – however, after that the high mmr players will be in high divisions and it won’t be as much of an issue.

That is one goal of the system. With an MMR reset, it would only create instability (ability to climb) for a short while. Part of having the ladder better represent skill is that the beginning of the season will be chaotic as everyone fights out of amber.

I just we don’t have a repeat of Season 1, where all the early matches were unwinnable and extremely frustrating until I finally started ending up in matches where I stood a chance. You guys have fixed the whole “solo queue vs. team queue” issues, right?

Evan Lesh.3295:

Part of having the ladder better represent skill is that the beginning of the season will be chaotic as everyone fights out of amber.

This one sounds nice.

Laserbolt.6731:

ANet is going to do their best to quick-sort higher skilled players into the “proper” division (i.e. BRACKET).

Strict brackets are CRITICAL in this game because of the potential sophistication of the combat system. Better players can be MUCH more effective on complex classes and rotations than newer/less skilled players.

The Dunning Kruger effect is very strong in GW2 (Google it). Those who are not even AWARE of what is possible think the combat system is simple.

It’s not. Map awareness, combos, rotation intuition, quick reflexes, baiting, feinting, and many other factors come into play at higher skill levels.

Someone please give this man/woman a medal, subtweet, sub forum forum post 100000gold legendary armor and everything….. Because almost 80% of these pvp forums crying posts and complainers, afkers, blames In the matches DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT understand the last paragraph of this amazing person ….

In summery. Before you consider you’re knowledge to be anything of superiority of another person behind a computer… Reevaluate, and go down a check list of that last paragraph and ASK YOURSELF …. Do I really do all of those things???
If not? Please get more experience. If yes then you probably wouldn’t didn’t have to read this far because you stopped at “give this man/woman a medal” :quote probably.

Dunning kruger and i thought special snowflake was fitting( can look that up in the urban dictionary) but it fits perfect

Laserbolt.6731:

ANet is going to do their best to quick-sort higher skilled players into the “proper” division (i.e. BRACKET).

Strict brackets are CRITICAL in this game because of the potential sophistication of the combat system. Better players can be MUCH more effective on complex classes and rotations than newer/less skilled players.

The Dunning Kruger effect is very strong in GW2 (Google it). Those who are not even AWARE of what is possible think the combat system is simple.

It’s not. Map awareness, combos, rotation intuition, quick reflexes, baiting, feinting, and many other factors come into play at higher skill levels.

Sorry this game is not even close to how complex you think it is. MMO pvp regardless of action combat or tab target will never have a high skill cap, will never be mechanically difficult, will never have good balance.

After almost 15+ years of MMOs having pvp, none of them have been close to being balanced for competitive play. MMO balance is just the endless revolving of flavor of the month classes and other classes being useless for x amount of months till the next flavor of the month balance patch.

If you want a complex game, you would not be playing guild wars, you would be playing an RTS/FPS even Moba’s have more complex RTS elements than an MMO will ever have.

Vulcan.7035:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Kevin.4209:

Evan Lesh.3295:

The changes for season 2 will make this less of a problem. Each team will have a tight MMR grouping such that each teammate should be very similar in skill to you. This is different from season 1 and unranked where we balance players on each team, i.e, high MMR and both sides and low MMR on both sides.

The goal is to ensure than if the higher skilled team wins, all the higher MMR players go up the ladder. Less unlucky high MMR players will drop on the ladder, and fewer low MMR players will get carried up the ladder.

Am I right that the intention of this system is to enable high MMR players to climb very very quickly? I’m just trying to understand why this would be better than a reset – I’m guessing because given a reset, it will still take a long time for ESL players to climb up just because of the element of randomness that is involved. The downside of the system you are proposing is that during the first couple weeks, there will be hugely one sided matches (I’m guessing you guys see this as a necessary evil – but perhaps it should be publicized before you get huge numbers of people whining) – however, after that the high mmr players will be in high divisions and it won’t be as much of an issue.

That is one goal of the system. With an MMR reset, it would only create instability (ability to climb) for a short while. Part of having the ladder better represent skill is that the beginning of the season will be chaotic as everyone fights out of amber.

Evan, if you guys can’t make the pips based on one’s self, you really need to start looking into a different way to allow solo’qers to gain pips by their own skill. Having to worry about getting a decent group of RANDOM people is not the way to handle this. I get it, it’s 5v5 or whatever. but no one EVER talks so it’s not like most people are working together anyway…

Agreed, there is no way to measure individual skill levels without a solo q. But of course Arena Net will never bring back Solo q or grasp how important it is for retaining players.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Avectius.3271:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Sunshine.5014:

Evan Lesh.3295:

The changes for season 2 will make this less of a problem. Each team will have a tight MMR grouping such that each teammate should be very similar in skill to you. This is different from season 1 and unranked where we balance players on each team, i.e, high MMR and both sides and low MMR on both sides.

The goal is to ensure than if the higher skilled team wins, all the higher MMR players go up the ladder. Less unlucky high MMR players will drop on the ladder, and fewer low MMR players will get carried up the ladder.

So if you’re unlucky and got matched with a low MMR team, you will keep losing and have no way to recover?

You wouldn’t be matched with a low MMR team unless you also have low MMR.

But what about the opposing team? If the system’s going to choose team mates as skilled as us, then what about the enemy players? What if we get paired up against enemy players with a much higher MMR?

Then that would mean either you climbed to high in divisions and you need to drop some, or the other team isn’t high enough yet and they are climbing out.

How is the opposing team chosen? Purely by being in the same division? Because that has the potential to result in some lopsided matches.

So you can basically still exploit the system by bringing down your MMR as far as possible while you can’t derank from your division and farming low MMR players afterwards?

Malediktus.9250:

Salamander.2504:

Malediktus.9250:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Avectius.3271:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Sunshine.5014:

Evan Lesh.3295:

The changes for season 2 will make this less of a problem. Each team will have a tight MMR grouping such that each teammate should be very similar in skill to you. This is different from season 1 and unranked where we balance players on each team, i.e, high MMR and both sides and low MMR on both sides.

The goal is to ensure than if the higher skilled team wins, all the higher MMR players go up the ladder. Less unlucky high MMR players will drop on the ladder, and fewer low MMR players will get carried up the ladder.

So if you’re unlucky and got matched with a low MMR team, you will keep losing and have no way to recover?

You wouldn’t be matched with a low MMR team unless you also have low MMR.

But what about the opposing team? If the system’s going to choose team mates as skilled as us, then what about the enemy players? What if we get paired up against enemy players with a much higher MMR?

Then that would mean either you climbed to high in divisions and you need to drop some, or the other team isn’t high enough yet and they are climbing out.

But loosing or even dropping divisions is not fun. People want to see progress because the permanent pvp progression system (rank 1-80 was made laughable short) is no longer of interest.

In the “everyone wins” mentality the leagues mean nothing. They should represent skill level, and not cater to people’s desire to always get more, more, more.

Skill level lol. This game will never be about skill. MMOs are about progression, if you want skilled gameplay, play games like LoL, Dota, etc.
Everyone who is above average should be able to reach legendary division if they put in enough effort, not just ESL like players. They got their ESL stuff for themselves already.

Um, no. That would truly make Legendary worthless. People should be able to fall all the way back down to Sapphire if they don’t belong where they played to. I don’t like losing Pips either but that’s the point of a ladder system, moving up and down. And even though this is an MMO, this game mode isn’t the same as PvE/WvW. You can keep what you get if you can retain it, its not a given. That’s what makes the level 80 ranks pointless. Anyone can grind their way thru it with enough time. The rank system shows time spent, the ladder should reflect the other metric of your build against others.

what happens if a high MMR is in a party with a Low MMR , i’ve seen people offer to pay to be carried in the lobby.

What about hot join team vs organized team? should hot join team always get hot join team?

Lucifer.7289:

Sorry this game is not even close to how complex you think it is. MMO pvp regardless of action combat or tab target will never have a high skill cap, will never be mechanically difficult, will never have good balance.

After almost 15+ years of MMOs having pvp, none of them have been close to being balanced for competitive play. MMO balance is just the endless revolving of flavor of the month classes and other classes being useless for x amount of months till the next flavor of the month balance patch.

If you want a complex game, you would not be playing guild wars, you would be playing an RTS/FPS even Moba’s have more complex RTS elements than an MMO will ever have.

Then why is the same team winning week after week in NA? According to you, a team of five randoms could understand all the complexity there is to the game and win the pro League after a couple of weeks of training? If that is the case, you probably have a good opportunity to make decent money for no real effort. Go for it!

SweetPotato.7456:

what happens if a high MMR is in a party with a Low MMR , i’ve seen people offer to pay to be carried in the lobby.

What about hot join team vs organized team? should hot join team always get hot join team?

I think you mean “pug team” or “team of players queuing individually”. The MM system tries to balance team size when it’s possible (look up the algorithm on the wiki). You can’t really carry a low division player anymore, since the division range from which your foes are chosen is the one of your highest ranked player (ex: a diamond is queing with an amber, the both of them will face solo players from diamond division).

You shouldn’t be worried about facing a premade anymore, because playing as a team is more difficult than ever because of this. In fact it’s even problematic for solo players: whenever I play a game where I feel like I really do a lot of work, but still end up losing two pips is whenever I have a 3-man/4-man premade on my side.

This games MMR is NOT about individual 1v1 skill. It is about team support skill.

Malediktus.9250:

Salamander.2504:

Malediktus.9250:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Avectius.3271:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Sunshine.5014:

Evan Lesh.3295:

The changes for season 2 will make this less of a problem. Each team will have a tight MMR grouping such that each teammate should be very similar in skill to you. This is different from season 1 and unranked where we balance players on each team, i.e, high MMR and both sides and low MMR on both sides.

The goal is to ensure than if the higher skilled team wins, all the higher MMR players go up the ladder. Less unlucky high MMR players will drop on the ladder, and fewer low MMR players will get carried up the ladder.

So if you’re unlucky and got matched with a low MMR team, you will keep losing and have no way to recover?

You wouldn’t be matched with a low MMR team unless you also have low MMR.

But what about the opposing team? If the system’s going to choose team mates as skilled as us, then what about the enemy players? What if we get paired up against enemy players with a much higher MMR?

Then that would mean either you climbed to high in divisions and you need to drop some, or the other team isn’t high enough yet and they are climbing out.

But loosing or even dropping divisions is not fun. People want to see progress because the permanent pvp progression system (rank 1-80 was made laughable short) is no longer of interest.

In the “everyone wins” mentality the leagues mean nothing. They should represent skill level, and not cater to people’s desire to always get more, more, more.

Skill level lol. This game will never be about skill. MMOs are about progression, if you want skilled gameplay, play games like LoL, Dota, etc.
Everyone who is above average should be able to reach legendary division if they put in enough effort, not just ESL like players. They got their ESL stuff for themselves already.

TBF , that “above average skill level” is a much smaller percentage than you think.
Many people are literally this bad because most of the good ones left long ago. Now most of them are from PVE and only participate because it has shiny loot, so they’re still learning about PVP in general. We also have some forum heroes who can’t make any friend in PVP for whatever reason and still stuck in mere Ruby, yet trash talk about other people who got to where they are, and try justify their failure is not because of their own incompetent.