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Posted by: Sarrs.4831

Sarrs.4831

Pistol Whip is clearly the problem – Just lower the damage for now and see what happens.

It’ll be a mistake to start messing about with traits that will affect D/P or S/D.

Personally, I think it’s because of the evade frames it gives. I would be okay with the damage if I could turn around and stun/fear/KB the thief in the face to prevent it.

The skill does a whole bunch of stuff- It does good damage, has evasion frames, and stuns. I think one of those needs to get trimmed down.

Nalhadia – Kaineng

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Posted by: muscarine.5136

muscarine.5136

Personally, I think it’s because of the evade frames it gives. I would be okay with the damage if I could turn around and stun/fear/KB the thief in the face to prevent it.

The skill does a whole bunch of stuff- It does good damage, has evasion frames, and stuns. I think one of those needs to get trimmed down.

And it cleaves. Moreover, it also has a tiny reach behind the char.
So, positionning yourself behind to setup a counter will just get you in pieces.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s not dumber than auto rotating blurred frenzy and such.

Why so much hate for legit counterplay… ?

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Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

A significant portion of the thief community (myself included) disagreed with the initiative regeneration buff. We argued that it would create multiple powerhouse specs while giving little advantage to building to boost initiative. At this point, I think that our prediction has come into full fruition with the ridiculous domination of S/P in the thief meta, as well as the 10 30 0 0 30 spec, which focuses entirely on utilizing that extra initiative we’ve received while doing tons of damage. On the other hand, some of the other changes (like the “.25s” cast on Infi Return- which is more like 1s- and the pushing of Assassin’s Reward to a GM trait in return for a virtually nonexistent buff to scaling with Healing Power) of the December 10th patch have been extremely harmful to build diversity, and, again, the domination of certain specs in higher-level sPvP play shows this to be true.

Anyways, I personally think that S/P is really only slightly OP, in reality (not like 400-500-HPS-OP’ness). However, it’s so stupidly easy to play that I absolutely despise the weapon set. I’ve seen a number of bad thieves turned into “pros” just by PW-spamming. D/P is equally bad as well, especially with the December 10th patch. The only thief spec that requires any skill whatsoever (relatively speaking), S/D, has been nearly killed by the absolute domination of S/P and D/P. I’m probably going to run S/D for the Legends tournament, but that’s more an act of habit and rebellion than it is a try to win the tournament, per se.

That being said, Thedenofsin continues to blatantly ignore some of the facts about thieves in general. Warriors, for instance, are still extremely good at killing thieves, but just about any class can kill them either way (I’ve killed warriors on my 5 toons- thief, mesmer, engineer, guardian, and elementalist). Spamming PW is also a one-way ticket to losing initiative (both the resource as well as a “fighting initiative”- being on the offense). And, as I’ve said many times before, the Sword autos on thief all have long casts/aftercasts. Jumper largely based his play style around taking advantage of certain parts of the cast times (though that still didn’t make up for the disadvantages of having the cast times), but S/P can’t really take advantage of those casts like S/D can.

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

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Posted by: style.6173

style.6173

Thanks for keeping it civil and constructive in here guys. It always helps us when you guys proffer facts/theories as to why something’s not balanced correctly, and then offer proposed solutions as to how you think it can be fixed. You guys are also doing a good job of honing in on where it’s most used, how it’s used, what you feel is too strong about it.

One recurring theme I’m seeing here is people feel that the initiative work lately has helped to benefit this skill.

Thanks for keeping it constructive.

I personally do NOT think it is an initiative thing. That does help with being able to use it more often, but it is not the biggest issue.

The problem is the entire IS—>PW combo. An immobilize, a stun, an evade, and good damage is too much for two skills. I’d like to see the stun or the evade removed.

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Posted by: Pyriall.5027

Pyriall.5027

Thanks for keeping it civil and constructive in here guys. It always helps us when you guys proffer facts/theories as to why something’s not balanced correctly, and then offer proposed solutions as to how you think it can be fixed. You guys are also doing a good job of honing in on where it’s most used, how it’s used, what you feel is too strong about it.

One recurring theme I’m seeing here is people feel that the initiative work lately has helped to benefit this skill.

Thanks for keeping it constructive.

I personally do NOT think it is an initiative thing. That does help with being able to use it more often, but it is not the biggest issue.

The problem is the entire IS—>PW combo. An immobilize, a stun, an evade, and good damage is too much for two skills. I’d like to see the stun or the evade removed.

If you took initiative away, would you still feel that way if they used two abilities (put them on cd) to do that?

It is the thief design, imo, that will continue to be problematic. You address one thing and you’re just peeling layers to get to another issue.

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Posted by: style.6173

style.6173

Thanks for keeping it civil and constructive in here guys. It always helps us when you guys proffer facts/theories as to why something’s not balanced correctly, and then offer proposed solutions as to how you think it can be fixed. You guys are also doing a good job of honing in on where it’s most used, how it’s used, what you feel is too strong about it.

One recurring theme I’m seeing here is people feel that the initiative work lately has helped to benefit this skill.

Thanks for keeping it constructive.

I personally do NOT think it is an initiative thing. That does help with being able to use it more often, but it is not the biggest issue.

The problem is the entire IS—>PW combo. An immobilize, a stun, an evade, and good damage is too much for two skills. I’d like to see the stun or the evade removed.

If you took initiative away, would you still feel that way if they used two abilities (put them on cd) to do that?

It is the thief design, imo, that will continue to be problematic. You address one thing and you’re just peeling layers to get to another issue.

They aren’t going to completely redesign a class at this point. Better to look at incremental fixes. Removing the evade or the stun would add more counter play and increase the thief skill cap a bit.

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Posted by: Pyriall.5027

Pyriall.5027

Thanks for keeping it civil and constructive in here guys. It always helps us when you guys proffer facts/theories as to why something’s not balanced correctly, and then offer proposed solutions as to how you think it can be fixed. You guys are also doing a good job of honing in on where it’s most used, how it’s used, what you feel is too strong about it.

One recurring theme I’m seeing here is people feel that the initiative work lately has helped to benefit this skill.

Thanks for keeping it constructive.

I personally do NOT think it is an initiative thing. That does help with being able to use it more often, but it is not the biggest issue.

The problem is the entire IS—>PW combo. An immobilize, a stun, an evade, and good damage is too much for two skills. I’d like to see the stun or the evade removed.

If you took initiative away, would you still feel that way if they used two abilities (put them on cd) to do that?

It is the thief design, imo, that will continue to be problematic. You address one thing and you’re just peeling layers to get to another issue.

They aren’t going to completely redesign a class at this point. Better to look at incremental fixes. Removing the evade or the stun would add more counter play and increase the thief skill cap a bit.

That’s not what I’m asking. You say it isn’t initiative, so if it wasn’t for the repeated use would you still feel the same?

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Posted by: muscarine.5136

muscarine.5136

Taking initiative away > screwing thief in general (obviously)

PW is just a shard of the overall BAD state (read BAD BAD [size=120]BAD[/size]) state of the game, it’s obvious it was brought up to its actual level to counter the bunker meta, like S/D got buffed before, and ended up screwing every single none bunker spec on top of it.

Then it gets nerfed bcause it litteraly eats through anything that isn’t a bunker like it’s nothing. (Yea and please dont answer warrior, thanks)

Bunkering has to be toned down.
Meanwhile, burst has to be toned down. Power or condi.

Both have to happen at the same time.

Otherwise, the sad truth is, PW specs and alike are needed in the current state of the game otherwise there is no stopping the bunkers or warriors.

Freaking snake eating its tail.

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Posted by: Mrbig.8019

Mrbig.8019

Pistol Whip is clearly the problem – Just lower the damage for now and see what happens.

It’ll be a mistake to start messing about with traits that will affect D/P or S/D.

S/D thief is even more broken. At least you can focus an S/p thief, somethign you can’t do with S/D thieves.

S/P being superior is more about the build rather the weapon set ( tough S/P is thief strongest team fight set up).

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Posted by: Mrbig.8019

Mrbig.8019

Thanks for keeping it civil and constructive in here guys. It always helps us when you guys proffer facts/theories as to why something’s not balanced correctly, and then offer proposed solutions as to how you think it can be fixed. You guys are also doing a good job of honing in on where it’s most used, how it’s used, what you feel is too strong about it.

One recurring theme I’m seeing here is people feel that the initiative work lately has helped to benefit this skill.

Thanks for keeping it constructive.

I personally do NOT think it is an initiative thing. That does help with being able to use it more often, but it is not the biggest issue.

The problem is the entire IS—>PW combo. An immobilize, a stun, an evade, and good damage is too much for two skills. I’d like to see the stun or the evade removed.

If you took initiative away, would you still feel that way if they used two abilities (put them on cd) to do that?

It is the thief design, imo, that will continue to be problematic. You address one thing and you’re just peeling layers to get to another issue.

They aren’t going to completely redesign a class at this point. Better to look at incremental fixes. Removing the evade or the stun would add more counter play and increase the thief skill cap a bit.

Removing the stun could potentially make S/P thief the strongest build ever made

No cast time spammable evade ( or little cast time) with tons of damage. Removing the stun would alo increase the dps of the skill.

basically a burst build with more survivability, that would make D/P obsolete.

Pls, no, better redesigning it totally

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Posted by: Lotus.1682

Lotus.1682

Maybe this is just because I’m in a lower skill bracket, but I don’t understand why people are saying that Thieves are low skill high reward. If I just spam pistol whip against every kittening class, I die every time. Unlike MM necros and Spirit Rangers and Condi Warriors, I think Thieves take an extraordinary amount of skill to play well. You screw up you die. >.>

Twistedlotus <Thief> xD
Isle of Janthir

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Posted by: BlackBeard.2873

BlackBeard.2873

I still maintain that is the instant ports that ignore LOS and don’t even require any aiming or thought. Just 3 then port. There are even ports away so you can’t try to punish them after the evasion ends. It also makes it IMPOSSIBLE to peel away from a thief.

That is really the strength of every trickery spec: You can completely ignore positioning and over-extend without really getting punished. At the same time, you do tons of damage from the 25-point traits alone (which haven’t been looked at since the init buff and are greatly improved by them) and executioner.

Currently this capability, combined with all the easy damage, a survivability mechanic (stealth + ports away + evade-spam + blind spam) that is unmatched for a glass roll, an incredibly easy access to high mobility on one of the best ranged-damage weapons in the game, and really strong control make the 10/30/0/0/30 spec over-budget.

High damage, great support (5 aoe boons shared from steal + shadow refuge for stomp interrupt/securing + resses), great control (on-demand interrupts, guaranteed stopm interrupt), with #1 mobility to boot. Something has to give.

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Posted by: Phoebe Ascension.8437

Phoebe Ascension.8437

Having played a non pistol whip thief now against many pistol whip thiefs, the following is my opinion on it.

Spammable stun is a bit powerfull (it’s even easier to land then warriors hammer, wich in my opinion already is close to op/a bit op with stun chaining). But add on top of that superior damage, and repeatability and it’s mad. Often it does 8k damage to me (if most hits land a crit.

8k damage, and evade and a stun… and if you use things like dodge, or stunbreaker to get out of it, they land it again.

Just tune the damage a bit. Other sword skills might need a boost for this nerf though. The main problem is ‘perma evade + perma stun + probably the moster powerfull damage in one thief skill’ in the same package. Ofc there are short windows where the ‘perma’ doesn’t apply but it’s almost as close to this. A backstab doens’t even do this much damage, and is harder to land, doenst stun, doenst evade.

Remember though, thief are VERY WEAK against aoe + warrior/guard surpression. If those enemies play remotely well, you have no chance of even reaching them alive. With that in mind, big nerfs could hit thief to hard. Especially stuff that nerfs more then just pistol whip (say shadow refuge). Some boost, might be warranted (small ones ofc, i don’t want a new ‘op cry fest’.

Remember though, always nerfing isn’t the solution. For instance, A thing that popped in my mind OFTEN is this. EVERY stunbreaker in the game gets 1 sec stability. Wait what, isn’t that op? In my opinion it isn’t. There’s a lot of simple skills (no stability or immobalize breaking), that break stun, but stop at that. Especially in wvw, these are useless. If you press stunbreaker, and press dodge as fast as you can, it will not work. The melee train will have stunned you again. And again, and again. Stunbreakers are pointless then (unless stuff like ’stand your ground or ranger skill the evades and give vigor). Give all of them 1 sec stability. If you play bad, so be it, the next stun will land, if not, you finally are able to dodge, to get away from the way to easy to land second stun.

And with having said that, this update would mean, pistol whip nerf actually isn’t even needed… Break stun evade it, and then prevent thief from getting close. A skilled player should be able to keep up with the thief and have 50/50 to win.

Legendary weapons can be hidden now!
No excuse anymore for not giving ‘hide mounts’-option
No thanks to unidentified weapons.

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Posted by: Zenith.7301

Zenith.7301

PW is a Blurred Frenzy on steroids that also happens to be a spammable stun.

One more thing a thief can do better than a mesmer.

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Posted by: Wintel.4873

Wintel.4873

Maybe this is just because I’m in a lower skill bracket, but I don’t understand why people are saying that Thieves are low skill high reward. If I just spam pistol whip against every kittening class, I die every time. Unlike MM necros and Spirit Rangers and Condi Warriors, I think Thieves take an extraordinary amount of skill to play well. You screw up you die. >.>

You haven’t played an elementalist have you?

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Posted by: nyqwist.2360

nyqwist.2360

Please nerf pistol whip in the coming patch on the 15th of april.

Okay.

Sensotix.4106:

Imo “steal” is the issue.

Wait, what? If this is the case, the title of this topic should either be “Trickery Traitline” or “Sleight of Hand” since this is something completely seperate from pistol whip. If you think pistol whip is fine, then why have you whined so much about this specific weapon-skill?

For example; laughing at someone who says that this weapon skill/weapon set is already in a decent spot.

I’m just trying to understand you here. Have you been “Sizerized” regarding this opinion?

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Posted by: Thedenofsin.7340

Thedenofsin.7340

I want to know why ArenaNet thinks it’s OK for Thieves to be SOO much more powerful than any other zerker in the game. It’s ridiculous.

(edited by Thedenofsin.7340)

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Posted by: Elfindale.4836

Elfindale.4836

Nerf the stun, and add a every clear telegraph like the ones you did with pin down.
OR
nerf the initiative gain accross the board and make it so you can not use it with shadowstep ability

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Posted by: KarsaiB.9475

KarsaiB.9475

I said it many times, I’ll say it again. The problem of the spec isn’t the pw skill itself, but the gap closing/pull back abilities. Melee specs by definition can’t stay in all the time and thus need to have higher damage to compensate for pressure downtime. With sword/pistol you have no risk by being melee at all, while having the complete reward. Instant ports in and out at will (you can port from 2000+ range if you want to, withdraw to instantly disengage melee range without any punishement possible and a 21 sec insant stability removal/daze.
Don’t nerf the damage of pistolwhip, nor the evades. You need to deliver your damage at some point. But make it riskier by nerfing steal, infil signet, infil strike, withdraw and lyssa runes.

Add an overlapping cast time on steal so that it has an animation but you can still do all the current combos. Steal needs a tell, as it’s a very important skill that you should be able to see coming consistenlty. Put a cast time to infil signet but keep it as stun breaker coz it’s ridiculously overpowered : positionning yourself as any glasscanon doesn’t matter coz the thief will instantly port to you from 10 miles away to train you down. Make infil strike work with line of sight requirement to land the immob and damage, like steal. Make every single thief skill used at least twice in a row cost 1 more initiative everytime. Remove withdraw from the game. Most broken, worst idea ever. Shouldn’t ever have seen daylight. Remove aegis and stability from lyssa proc. Please. Do it.

55 HP Monks // Random scrubadub

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Posted by: CntrlAltDefeat.1465

CntrlAltDefeat.1465

I agree pistol whip needs a change. For both the Thief and the target. After experimenting with a build to maximise up coming changes to warrior I found PW thief was little more than an inconvenience to me. My build had 2 legit stun breakers and one quasi “kinda” stun break with 6 lyssa runes. If you can survive the first few onslaughts whilst dealing 6-7K crit hits back on eviscerate you can manage them just fine. However my necro has none of this going for them.

Pistol whippers can easily be downed if you bring enough defense (Shield stance/endure pain/dolyak signet) and can wipe 50%+ of their health off in one hit.

However it does make me feel for the thief. Pistol whip currently seems to be the only viable build going for sword, and it requires them to heavily invest into being a glass canon. Any well set up 1-2 punch combination pretty destroys them and that creates the dependency on spamming pistol whip to help prevent this being done to them.

Ultimately this comes back to thieve’s ability to engage and not rely solely on massive burst and play a more engaged/sustained style. Currently if pistol whip didn’t perform how it does the thief would get downed in a mild breeze..however if you can’t pack all the stuff a warrior can on a specific balanced build that naturally has a lot of defense, then pistol whipping will simply run rampant on you and it does legitimately feel like you never got a look in at defending yourself.

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Posted by: Destiny.6738

Destiny.6738

But make it riskier by nerfing steal, infil signet, infil strike, withdraw and lyssa runes.

Add an overlapping cast time on steal so that it has an animation but you can still do all the current combos. Steal needs a tell, as it’s a very important skill that you should be able to see coming consistenlty. Put a cast time to infil signet but keep it as stun breaker coz it’s ridiculously overpowered : positionning yourself as any glasscanon doesn’t matter coz the thief will instantly port to you from 10 miles away to train you down. Make infil strike work with line of sight requirement to land the immob and damage, like steal. Make every single thief skill used at least twice in a row cost 1 more initiative everytime. Do it.

Remove thief from the game, do it.

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Posted by: BlackBeard.2873

BlackBeard.2873

But make it riskier by nerfing steal, infil signet, infil strike, withdraw and lyssa runes.

Add an overlapping cast time on steal so that it has an animation but you can still do all the current combos. Steal needs a tell, as it’s a very important skill that you should be able to see coming consistenlty. Put a cast time to infil signet but keep it as stun breaker coz it’s ridiculously overpowered : positionning yourself as any glasscanon doesn’t matter coz the thief will instantly port to you from 10 miles away to train you down. Make infil strike work with line of sight requirement to land the immob and damage, like steal. Make every single thief skill used at least twice in a row cost 1 more initiative everytime. Do it.

Remove thief from the game, do it.

Uhhhh…KarsaiB hit the nail on the head. If thief, by your definition, needs to have no risk to go along with high reward to exist, then I guess you just enjoy being OP? He didn’t suggest reducing the damage, and clearly understands there are (or should be) trade-offs for high damage. Every other glass spec needs to put themselves in harms way and have some set-up for their burst, except thief. The ports make positioning nothing, an uninterruptible heal + evade on 3/4s cast time that heals for a lot (as much as ele’s heals) and also provides superior positioning is insane. Add to it spammable retreats/evades on shortbow for when the fit hits the shan and things just get over the top.

If you can’t understand why some of these things are a problem, then you should try playing another glass class and learn what a reasonable risk:reward ratio feels like.

(edited by BlackBeard.2873)

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Posted by: djooceboxblast.9876

djooceboxblast.9876

I said it many times, I’ll say it again. The problem of the spec isn’t the pw skill itself, but the gap closing/pull back abilities. Melee specs by definition can’t stay in all the time and thus need to have higher damage to compensate for pressure downtime. With sword/pistol you have no risk by being melee at all, while having the complete reward. Instant ports in and out at will (you can port from 2000+ range if you want to, withdraw to instantly disengage melee range without any punishement possible and a 21 sec insant stability removal/daze.
Don’t nerf the damage of pistolwhip, nor the evades. You need to deliver your damage at some point. But make it riskier by nerfing steal, infil signet, infil strike, withdraw and lyssa runes.

Add an overlapping cast time on steal so that it has an animation but you can still do all the current combos. Steal needs a tell, as it’s a very important skill that you should be able to see coming consistenlty. Put a cast time to infil signet but keep it as stun breaker coz it’s ridiculously overpowered : positionning yourself as any glasscanon doesn’t matter coz the thief will instantly port to you from 10 miles away to train you down. Make infil strike work with line of sight requirement to land the immob and damage, like steal. Make every single thief skill used at least twice in a row cost 1 more initiative everytime. Remove withdraw from the game. Most broken, worst idea ever. Shouldn’t ever have seen daylight. Remove aegis and stability from lyssa proc. Please. Do it.

Why do you have to be mad? JK! I totally agree with everything Le C (Karsaib) wrote here. Thief as a profession needs to be more in line with other professions when it comes to terrain obstacles and LOS. Adding cast times to certain weapon skills (Shadow Return) and utilities (Withdraw, Shadowstep, Infiltrator’s Signet) would not be a bad idea either. Also why does thief get so many 2 in 1 abilities? I am JELLY! I want an easier time killing thieves!

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Posted by: djooceboxblast.9876

djooceboxblast.9876

Also: BUFF NECRO!

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Posted by: Liam McColgan.7689

Liam McColgan.7689

So after reading this post have come to these conclusions;

-MrBig is a kitten who strokes his own ego way to much. Not in top 400 right now(LOL like that means anything. One MUST be there to have any valid opinion, even if you have 1k games played and been in top 200 before)?. And sorry to say its not the first time i’ve seen him act like a wannabe elitist xD. (check his posting history).

-Thieves are stupid right now, and its so blatantly obvious they are one of the main reasons glass cannon light armour especially cant compete in ‘top level’ tpvp.

-Most of the theory talked here is not really very situational…..how do you stop a thief popping up on you in a team fight and 2 shotting you? Can be very hard, no fun and hard to counter(as a shatter mesmer).

-PW is not the major problem, more so the class itself.

Just my 2c.

Mesmer – 1250+ Ranked tpvp WINS.
– 7772 games played, 5274 games won.
“Nuke or be Nuked” – Said every mesmer ever

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Posted by: Destiny.6738

Destiny.6738

After almost 4 months, you guys start complaining about the OPness of thieves? Pistolwhip has to be reworked, sure (though, NOBODY has been complaining about it for a very long time) – and now, let’s nerf several utilities.

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Posted by: djooceboxblast.9876

djooceboxblast.9876

After almost 4 months, you guys start complaining about the OPness of thieves? Pistolwhip has to be reworked, sure (though, NOBODY has been complaining about it for a very long time) – and now, let’s nerf several utilities.

About time!

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Posted by: Thedenofsin.7340

Thedenofsin.7340

I said it many times, I’ll say it again. The problem of the spec isn’t the pw skill itself, but the gap closing/pull back abilities. Melee specs by definition can’t stay in all the time and thus need to have higher damage to compensate for pressure downtime. With sword/pistol you have no risk by being melee at all, while having the complete reward. Instant ports in and out at will (you can port from 2000+ range if you want to, withdraw to instantly disengage melee range without any punishement possible and a 21 sec insant stability removal/daze.
Don’t nerf the damage of pistolwhip, nor the evades. You need to deliver your damage at some point. But make it riskier by nerfing steal, infil signet, infil strike, withdraw and lyssa runes.

Add an overlapping cast time on steal so that it has an animation but you can still do all the current combos. Steal needs a tell, as it’s a very important skill that you should be able to see coming consistenlty. Put a cast time to infil signet but keep it as stun breaker coz it’s ridiculously overpowered : positionning yourself as any glasscanon doesn’t matter coz the thief will instantly port to you from 10 miles away to train you down. Make infil strike work with line of sight requirement to land the immob and damage, like steal. Make every single thief skill used at least twice in a row cost 1 more initiative everytime. Remove withdraw from the game. Most broken, worst idea ever. Shouldn’t ever have seen daylight. Remove aegis and stability from lyssa proc. Please. Do it.

Yes. However, boosting initiative regen made everything worse. It was a mistake ANet should revert. Gap closing abilities should be expensive, not cheap. An elementalist gets one on a ~15 second cooldown. A Mesmer gets one on a ~12 second cooldown. A thief gets one every 3 seconds.

Hey – you’re on 55hp monks. How about you guys play some tournaments where thieves are banned?

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Posted by: Ugruk.4069

Ugruk.4069

Elementalist has a gap close on 15 sec cooldown?

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Posted by: Thedenofsin.7340

Thedenofsin.7340

Elementalist has a gap close on 15 sec cooldown?

Burning Speed.

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Posted by: apt.9184

apt.9184

Thanks for keeping it civil and constructive in here guys. It always helps us when you guys proffer facts/theories as to why something’s not balanced correctly, and then offer proposed solutions as to how you think it can be fixed. You guys are also doing a good job of honing in on where it’s most used, how it’s used, what you feel is too strong about it.

One recurring theme I’m seeing here is people feel that the initiative work lately has helped to benefit this skill.

Thanks for keeping it constructive.

Yea I agree with you in general the initiative regen buff really made thieves just so effective atm it makes every other glass cannon obsolete. PW became so much better with reduction of time it takes for full pw and initiative buff made thief able to spam skills with little risk. It also makes it more mobile since you can short bow 5 further with more initiative regen. I feel if initiative regen was reverted that would fix the problems right now.

Lil Apt
L2P deeez nutz

(edited by apt.9184)

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Posted by: Pyriall.5027

Pyriall.5027

Thanks for keeping it civil and constructive in here guys. It always helps us when you guys proffer facts/theories as to why something’s not balanced correctly, and then offer proposed solutions as to how you think it can be fixed. You guys are also doing a good job of honing in on where it’s most used, how it’s used, what you feel is too strong about it.

One recurring theme I’m seeing here is people feel that the initiative work lately has helped to benefit this skill.

Thanks for keeping it constructive.

Yea I agree with you in general the initiative regen buff really made thieves just so effective atm it makes every other glass cannon obsolete. PW became so much better with reduction of time it takes for full pw and initiative buff made thief able to spam skills with little risk. It also makes it more mobile since you can short bow 5 further with more initiative regen. I feel if initiative regen was reverted that would fix the problems right now.

It wasn’t the initiative regen buff. That only exacerbated the situation. There were plenty of s/p thieves playing prior to that buff. The problem is inherent to the thief profession and its mechanics.

Early in the thread I outlined the poison on steal and 900 range initial blind application on blinding powder. Those are just some small things, but similar to the elementalist it is a combination of those small things that make them the kings of the berserker builds. I’m sure we can build a laundry list of little things that could/should be adjusted. Unfortunately, it doesn’t look like the featured patch will address any of those issues.

It’s ok to have a king, but it’s not ok to have such a large discrepancy between the king and the next best berserker build. If you evaluate some of the other builds, excluding thief, they are pretty close to each other balance wise. Some off more burst at the expense of providing group utility and others may provide more mobility and offer less burst. At least with the other professions there is a tradeoff.

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Posted by: style.6173

style.6173

Thanks for keeping it civil and constructive in here guys. It always helps us when you guys proffer facts/theories as to why something’s not balanced correctly, and then offer proposed solutions as to how you think it can be fixed. You guys are also doing a good job of honing in on where it’s most used, how it’s used, what you feel is too strong about it.

One recurring theme I’m seeing here is people feel that the initiative work lately has helped to benefit this skill.

Thanks for keeping it constructive.

I personally do NOT think it is an initiative thing. That does help with being able to use it more often, but it is not the biggest issue.

The problem is the entire IS—>PW combo. An immobilize, a stun, an evade, and good damage is too much for two skills. I’d like to see the stun or the evade removed.

If you took initiative away, would you still feel that way if they used two abilities (put them on cd) to do that?

It is the thief design, imo, that will continue to be problematic. You address one thing and you’re just peeling layers to get to another issue.

They aren’t going to completely redesign a class at this point. Better to look at incremental fixes. Removing the evade or the stun would add more counter play and increase the thief skill cap a bit.

Removing the stun could potentially make S/P thief the strongest build ever made

No cast time spammable evade ( or little cast time) with tons of damage. Removing the stun would alo increase the dps of the skill.

basically a burst build with more survivability, that would make D/P obsolete.

Pls, no, better redesigning it totally

I think you are completely wrong. You assume the stun would somehow decrease cast time. What people are suggesting is to remove the stun, but keep the cast time the same. That would NOT increase DPS.

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Posted by: posthumecaver.6473

posthumecaver.6473

I think a big problem that hasn’t been pointed out is how easy it is for the pw thief to initiate on squishy targets (ele/mesmer mostly) : Infiltrator’s signet. You just have to press infiltrator’s strike, infil signet and steal at the same time. It’ll combine the 3 ranges together in a giant port towards the target, instantly, without tells. If you basi on top, your target is already in huge trouble without even using pistolwhip itself.
Every thief no matter which spec nowadays is playing infiltrator’s signet for this reason. I’m not sure exactly how to fix it. Maybe keep it a stun break but add a cast time to it, like stomp on warrior ? It would make it impossible to use anything more than steal on top of it, and would decrease the speed at which the thief transitions from initiating to pistolwhip mashing. In any case, those instant dashes on the target for 2000+ range should not be possible imo.

What kills the Ele is that 10s chill on the steal, you can’t run away, you can’t attunement switch because attunement switch CD is on %66 longer with chill, common that is the life breath of the Ele, either chill should be lower or it should not effect the attunement switch.

And can please chill have some effect on Thiefs, like reduced initiative generation or something, chill has no effect when they are killing you only after they kill you, they leave the scene more slowly.

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Posted by: Lordrosicky.5813

Lordrosicky.5813

Pistol whip isn’t THE problem, but it is A problem.

The skill does too much and costs too little.

Having said that, I then agree with others saying other things on thief are a problem. I have said many times that pistol whip is the tip of the iceberg and in reality thief needs really significant nerfs.

I doubt anet will nerf lyssa runes, which actually would help the game a ton seen as all the OP builds (all warrior and thief) totally abuse these runes. Aside from that many of the thief skills alluded to above need a nerf.

The thing to remember is that (imo) the best 3 roamer builds in the game are thief. S/p, S/d and D/p are all too strong right now. You can’t just nerf pistol whip into oblivion because it doesn’t solve the problem. The problem is way deeper than that.

I don’t think anet are going to make the significant changes to thief suggested in this thread. But we can hope I suppose.

I would love to see them just hit around 10 thief skills/utilities. I still think if this happened thief would be more than viable. It is so inherently strong that anet shouldn’t, in theory, be concerned with overnerfing it.

The only way I would accept thief not being nerfed in the upcoming patch is if lyysa runes receive a big nerf. Removing stab and aegis does only a little. I would like to see the 6th part be put on a 70 second icd. This alone would make thieves require a ton more skill to be used profitably. No “second wind” from lyysa runes being abused.

With the fact that all thieve specs are OP, I actually like the idea to just nerf their profession mechanic. A nerf to steal would be a really good change for the game.

Character: Henry rank million/Duke Henry
Necromancer/Casual Warrior
[Team] Best WvW guild of all time. EASILY.

(edited by Lordrosicky.5813)

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Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

I doubt anet will nerf lyssa runes, which actually would help the game a ton seen as all the OP builds (all warrior and thief) totally abuse these runes.

Yeah, because having a full-out condi clear (like some other classes, such as engineer and guardian) while also having a severe lack of traits and utilities that condi clear (or clear only very specific condis) as well as some generally ineffective boons for 5 seconds in exchange for a terrible elite and four wasted abilities on runes… Talk about OP’ness right there.

The thing to remember is that (imo) the best 3 roamer builds in the game are thief. S/p, S/d and D/p are all too strong right now. You can’t just nerf pistol whip into oblivion because it doesn’t solve the problem. The problem is way deeper than that.

Woah, wait- S/D is “too strong” right now? When was the last time you saw an S/D thief in tournament play? For me, well over half a year ago. I still play the weapon set because I enjoy it, but you just don’t see the weapon set being used in tournament play any more. Though if you’d like to provide some other type of “proof” that S/D is “too strong”, I’d be happy to show you the evidence I’ve provided to the contrary. Even Helseth can’t seem to find any argument against S/D outside of just shouting at people like me.

I would love to see them just hit around 10 thief skills/utilities. I still think if this happened thief would be more than viable. It is so inherently strong that anet shouldn’t, in theory, be concerned with overnerfing it.

Such as?

The only way I would accept thief not being nerfed in the upcoming patch is if lyysa runes receive a big nerf. Removing stab and aegis does only a little. I would like to see the 6th part be put on a 70 second icd. This alone would make thieves require a ton more skill to be used profitably. No “second wind” from lyysa runes being abused.

Thieves suffer from condis (especially movement-impeding conditions) way more than every other class in the game. I’d be okay with the buffs being removed (or condis being turned into buffs), but to put a 70s ICD on the 6th ability would kill thief. We generally have pretty terrible condi removal (especially since IR was given an insanely long cast time), and we already have to sacrifice a lot just to accept taking Lyssa in the first place. Personally, if it wasn’t for the condi clear, I would much rather take either Ogre’s or Scholar’s.

With the fact that all thieve specs are OP, I actually like the idea to just nerf their profession mechanic. A nerf to steal would be a really good change for the game.

Yeah, P/P, P/D, SB, and S/D builds are all super OP.

How would a nerf to steal help you? You seem to be largely claims without evidence or reasoning, and to be honest, I fail to see how such a linear mechanic like Steal makes thief specs “OP”.

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

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Posted by: Lordrosicky.5813

Lordrosicky.5813

I doubt anet will nerf lyssa runes, which actually would help the game a ton seen as all the OP builds (all warrior and thief) totally abuse these runes.

Yeah, because having a full-out condi clear (like some other classes, such as engineer and guardian) while also having a severe lack of traits and utilities that condi clear (or clear only very specific condis) as well as some generally ineffective boons for 5 seconds in exchange for a terrible elite and four wasted abilities on runes… Talk about OP’ness right there.

The thing to remember is that (imo) the best 3 roamer builds in the game are thief. S/p, S/d and D/p are all too strong right now. You can’t just nerf pistol whip into oblivion because it doesn’t solve the problem. The problem is way deeper than that.

Woah, wait- S/D is “too strong” right now? When was the last time you saw an S/D thief in tournament play? For me, well over half a year ago. I still play the weapon set because I enjoy it, but you just don’t see the weapon set being used in tournament play any more. Though if you’d like to provide some other type of “proof” that S/D is “too strong”, I’d be happy to show you the evidence I’ve provided to the contrary. Even Helseth can’t seem to find any argument against S/D outside of just shouting at people like me.

I would love to see them just hit around 10 thief skills/utilities. I still think if this happened thief would be more than viable. It is so inherently strong that anet shouldn’t, in theory, be concerned with overnerfing it.

Such as?

The only way I would accept thief not being nerfed in the upcoming patch is if lyysa runes receive a big nerf. Removing stab and aegis does only a little. I would like to see the 6th part be put on a 70 second icd. This alone would make thieves require a ton more skill to be used profitably. No “second wind” from lyysa runes being abused.

Thieves suffer from condis (especially movement-impeding conditions) way more than every other class in the game. I’d be okay with the buffs being removed (or condis being turned into buffs), but to put a 70s ICD on the 6th ability would kill thief. We generally have pretty terrible condi removal (especially since IR was given an insanely long cast time), and we already have to sacrifice a lot just to accept taking Lyssa in the first place. Personally, if it wasn’t for the condi clear, I would much rather take either Ogre’s or Scholar’s.

With the fact that all thieve specs are OP, I actually like the idea to just nerf their profession mechanic. A nerf to steal would be a really good change for the game.

Yeah, P/P, P/D, SB, and S/D builds are all super OP.

How would a nerf to steal help you? You seem to be largely claims without evidence or reasoning, and to be honest, I fail to see how such a linear mechanic like Steal makes thief specs “OP”.

S/D is still ridiculously overpowered because it does massive damage whilst be even harder to target than a bunker guardian is. Any build dishing out massive damage should be balanced around the fact that the other team can counter play it by focusing that target. S/D this is impossible. That is why it is still really overpowered.

Character: Henry rank million/Duke Henry
Necromancer/Casual Warrior
[Team] Best WvW guild of all time. EASILY.

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Posted by: Mrbig.8019

Mrbig.8019

Pistol whip isn’t THE problem, but it is A problem.

The skill does too much and costs too little.

Having said that, I then agree with others saying other things on thief are a problem. I have said many times that pistol whip is the tip of the iceberg and in reality thief needs really significant nerfs.

I doubt anet will nerf lyssa runes, which actually would help the game a ton seen as all the OP builds (all warrior and thief) totally abuse these runes. Aside from that many of the thief skills alluded to above need a nerf.

The thing to remember is that (imo) the best 3 roamer builds in the game are thief. S/p, S/d and D/p are all too strong right now. You can’t just nerf pistol whip into oblivion because it doesn’t solve the problem. The problem is way deeper than that.

I don’t think anet are going to make the significant changes to thief suggested in this thread. But we can hope I suppose.

I would love to see them just hit around 10 thief skills/utilities. I still think if this happened thief would be more than viable. It is so inherently strong that anet shouldn’t, in theory, be concerned with overnerfing it.

The only way I would accept thief not being nerfed in the upcoming patch is if lyysa runes receive a big nerf. Removing stab and aegis does only a little. I would like to see the 6th part be put on a 70 second icd. This alone would make thieves require a ton more skill to be used profitably. No “second wind” from lyysa runes being abused.

With the fact that all thieve specs are OP, I actually like the idea to just nerf their profession mechanic. A nerf to steal would be a really good change for the game.

Our profession mechanic has been largely buffed because it was kittenty for almost 1 year.

In the old burst meta thief was really hard to play because basically all professions could outsustain you and a single mistake could lead you to death, even against mesmers ( that now say they’re “hardcountered” by thieves), reason why we have such overpowered stuff like shadowstep u-skill.

Things started to change with mug nerf ( and added healing) + sleight of hand.

Aside boon ripping, steal is currently a big “window of opportunity” + 2k heal every 20 secs that made all other classes ( that would easily outsustain you) easier to deafeat, while making broken stuff like shadowstep even more broken.

Paired with higher ini regen and shortbow being a must have in every thief build, every build has access to evade spamming ( usually you can win 1vs1 with shortbow alone, at least if you know how to land cluster bomb).

Imo, without changing too much, some simple changes would make thief a lot less strong.

  • Add an after cast to disabling shot
  • Revert mug nerf ( no heal gained, make it able to crit again), reduce damage slightly
  • Nerf sleight of hand, steal recharge no more affected. Steal recharge blocked at 30 secs

Currently, thief issue is survivability, too much of it. Evade spamming with shortbow is ridicolous.

It’s fine if a thief oneshots you, it’s not fine if he’s also able to outsustain you.

This changes are more than enough to bring thief back in line with other proffs.

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Posted by: Pyriall.5027

Pyriall.5027

I doubt anet will nerf lyssa runes, which actually would help the game a ton seen as all the OP builds (all warrior and thief) totally abuse these runes.

Yeah, because having a full-out condi clear (like some other classes, such as engineer and guardian) while also having a severe lack of traits and utilities that condi clear (or clear only very specific condis) as well as some generally ineffective boons for 5 seconds in exchange for a terrible elite and four wasted abilities on runes… Talk about OP’ness right there.

The thing to remember is that (imo) the best 3 roamer builds in the game are thief. S/p, S/d and D/p are all too strong right now. You can’t just nerf pistol whip into oblivion because it doesn’t solve the problem. The problem is way deeper than that.

Woah, wait- S/D is “too strong” right now? When was the last time you saw an S/D thief in tournament play? For me, well over half a year ago. I still play the weapon set because I enjoy it, but you just don’t see the weapon set being used in tournament play any more. Though if you’d like to provide some other type of “proof” that S/D is “too strong”, I’d be happy to show you the evidence I’ve provided to the contrary. Even Helseth can’t seem to find any argument against S/D outside of just shouting at people like me.

I would love to see them just hit around 10 thief skills/utilities. I still think if this happened thief would be more than viable. It is so inherently strong that anet shouldn’t, in theory, be concerned with overnerfing it.

Such as?

The only way I would accept thief not being nerfed in the upcoming patch is if lyysa runes receive a big nerf. Removing stab and aegis does only a little. I would like to see the 6th part be put on a 70 second icd. This alone would make thieves require a ton more skill to be used profitably. No “second wind” from lyysa runes being abused.

Thieves suffer from condis (especially movement-impeding conditions) way more than every other class in the game. I’d be okay with the buffs being removed (or condis being turned into buffs), but to put a 70s ICD on the 6th ability would kill thief. We generally have pretty terrible condi removal (especially since IR was given an insanely long cast time), and we already have to sacrifice a lot just to accept taking Lyssa in the first place. Personally, if it wasn’t for the condi clear, I would much rather take either Ogre’s or Scholar’s.

With the fact that all thieve specs are OP, I actually like the idea to just nerf their profession mechanic. A nerf to steal would be a really good change for the game.

Yeah, P/P, P/D, SB, and S/D builds are all super OP.

How would a nerf to steal help you? You seem to be largely claims without evidence or reasoning, and to be honest, I fail to see how such a linear mechanic like Steal makes thief specs “OP”.

S/D compared to S/P and D/P may not be too strong, but it certainly is relative to other berserker builds.

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Posted by: ens.9854

ens.9854

Reverting mug nerf is probably the single worst thing they could do to all of pvp. Try to remember why it was nerfed in the first place.

I used sleight of hand before they added the steal reduction… I agree that it is a bit OP, but it does have a huge opportunity cost as well. Maybe there is some middle ground.

I disagree with your points on shortbow… Usually spamming #3 is a sign that the thief is in really bad shape (they had to swap to shortbow after all). If possible I think the skill should be sped up so that it doesn’t last so long when used 4+ times in a row.

Edit: to Ricky saying s/d is untargetable… I think this is only partly true. Good players recognize their evade frames on flanking now and target swap with CC effects so they don’t have much chance to start spamming anti-focus dodge rolls. Zerk s/d has some decent counter play in this way, but I believe it will need reevaluated with the new changes coming up to runes/sigils. Will intelligence/energy soldier amulet s/d be a thing? Idk but soldier s/d can be surprisingly strong already even without speccing into evades

(edited by ens.9854)

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Posted by: Pyriall.5027

Pyriall.5027

It’s fine if a thief oneshots you, it’s not fine if he’s also able to outsustain you.

Any game which wants any semblance of balance should not condone one shotting someone. You have a whole map dedicated to that concept and it is the most despised map in the game.

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Posted by: Obsidia.5127

Obsidia.5127

I find it strange how nobody really complained about D/P and S/D until S/P became popular. S/D evades were pretty much the only thing people whined about.

It’s really sad that people can’t be bothered to find ways around their struggles with certain classes. I do understand the complaints from Elementalists and sometimes Mesmers though.

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Posted by: Surferboy.1649

Surferboy.1649

The only good idea here comes from Arganthium, and if you still ask, why thief is the best berserker?
Take that from us, and we are broken. Every other class is better in tanking, supporting, conditions, ….
you are whining about thief berserkers? shall we start whining about not having any other option than to go for squishy?
why not give us also invulernability, stability, high regeneration, …
Seriously, just start thinking about what you can do with your own class.

And one more question: who gets hit by autoattack of a thief? lol
If you get hit by autoattack all the time you definitely do something wrong.

In fact maybe the +3 initiative in the last traitline should be nerfed, cause without that the spammability would be decreased.
I never played S/P like that,but with that, you really just focus on spamming.
As I see it, nerfing that trait wouldn’t affect other builds.

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Posted by: Lordrosicky.5813

Lordrosicky.5813

I find it strange how nobody really complained about D/P and S/D until S/P became popular. S/D evades were pretty much the only thing people whined about.

It’s really sad that people can’t be bothered to find ways around their struggles with certain classes. I do understand the complaints from Elementalists and sometimes Mesmers though.

Don’t be so ridiculous. It is nothing to do with finding ways around the issues. It is just a matter of balance. Whatever thief build people play usually has the unique advantage of being mobile, having huge damage and having many ways to survive/avoid damage.

This makes them all OP.

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Necromancer/Casual Warrior
[Team] Best WvW guild of all time. EASILY.

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Posted by: Mrbig.8019

Mrbig.8019

Reverting mug nerf is probably the single worst thing they could do to all of pvp. Try to remember why it was nerfed in the first place.

I used sleight of hand before they added the steal reduction… I agree that it is a bit OP, but it does have a huge opportunity cost as well. Maybe there is some middle ground.

I disagree with your points on shortbow… Usually spamming #3 is a sign that the thief is in really bad shape (they had to swap to shortbow after all). If possible I think the skill should be sped up so that it doesn’t last so long when used 4+ times in a row.

Edit: to Ricky saying s/d is untargetable… I think this is only partly true. Good players recognize their evade frames on flanking now and target swap with CC effects so they don’t have much chance to start spamming anti-focus dodge rolls. Zerk s/d has some decent counter play in this way, but I believe it will need reevaluated with the new changes coming up to runes/sigils. Will intelligence/energy soldier amulet s/d be a thing? Idk but soldier s/d can be surprisingly strong already even without speccing into evades

Mug was nerfed because hotjoin heroes were not able to l2p, no one in high end tPvP was crying about thieves and the most succesful team ( Paradigm, ndr) was at the top of the food chain without one ( and thieves, inbetween mug nerf and S/D buff were almost totally worthless).

Now, with increased ini regen, having mug reverted would be the best way to handle thieves issue, that more than pure damage is SURVIVABILITY AND SUSTAIN, mostly mug and sleight of hand’s steal reduction related.

Reagrding shortbow, if the thief is in a bad shape letting him LOLOLOLOL evade-spam is ridicolous, reason why thieves are not easy to focus even without speccing into evades.

Bad thieves can win against good ones simply because that thief randomly evaded the burst while evade spamming randomly, the same regarding other professions ( ele burst randomly evaded by shortbow 3 spam).

This is unacceptable, it was acceptable pre ini buff since a thief would be dead meat after a couple of evades, now it isn’t with 50% vigor uptime and super ini regen.

And regarding S/D, it’s still the most broken thief build by far, point is S/P is stronger in teamfights.

S/D thieves can’t be focused, it’s a fact.

It’s fine if a thief oneshots you, it’s not fine if he’s also able to outsustain you.

Any game which wants any semblance of balance should not condone one shotting someone. You have a whole map dedicated to that concept and it is the most despised map in the game.

LoL is full of oneshots, as long as they’re skillshots.

Thief burst is still a skillshot, you won’t be oneshoetted anyway and you can easily evade it.

Skyhammer is hater because it’s full of ONESHOTS MECHANICS easily spammed by some classes, without skill shots ( stealth pulls, mesmer focus etc. etc.).

A skillshot burst is not a oneshot mechanic.

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Posted by: Black Teagan.9215

Black Teagan.9215

Why is every thief metaweaponset OP?
As the most thieves play with S/D, was S/D OP, and now S/P? Strange, dont you think?

Thieves are already weak, and shaky arguments like ,high dmg or stealth, two bad designed coremechanics,are not enough to call him strong or fine.

PW have evades, because thieves would die in secs without it,
PW have a stun do hold the enemies long enough in position to be sure, that it deals dmg and the dmg must be so high to compensate the terrible deff.

BTW: The main dmg comes from First Strikes, Executioner and Lead Attacks (or another 25 point trait). Without all this, the dmg were 40% lower or halved.

Everything what PW do, is necessary and fine, only the cost of 5 ini are a little to low and should increase to 6.

PW is one of the few good skills, that these class have. The most other weapons, skills traits and (core-)mechanics are bad and a bigger problem for thieves and the other classes in GW2, that a single weaponskill.

Currently, thief issue is survivability, too much of it. Evade spamming with shortbow is ridicolous.

It’s fine if a thief oneshots you, it’s not fine if he’s also able to outsustain you.

This changes are more than enough to bring thief back in line with other proffs.

Good joke!
Thief survivability is weak without stealth, especially condition remove and even deathblossom is a better evade skill than Disabling Shot.
“oneshot” is a word, that dont exist for thieves outside of WvW.

Caleb Ferendir
-Charr Thief-
It’s good to be bad!

(edited by Black Teagan.9215)

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Posted by: glaphen.5230

glaphen.5230

Good joke!
Thief survivability is weak without stealth, especially condition remove and even deathblossom is a better evade skill than Disabling Shot.
“oneshot” is a word, that dont exist for thieves outside of WvW.

Good joke!
Death Blossom
Evade: ¼ s
4 initiative

Disabling Shot
Evade: ¾ s
4 initiative

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Posted by: Slim.3024

Slim.3024

Every single glass cannon roamer in this game is incredibly overpowered when entering a 1v1 (thus making it a 2v1 in your favor). The fact that thieves are more likely to engage in these 1v1s is the main reason they are considered overpowered.

Thief mobility allows for twice or three times as many 2v1s during a match. The main reason for that is Infiltrator’s Arrow.

If you want to see where thieves stand in terms of actual power in relation to other glass builds, you need to nerf Infiltrator’s Arrow first, because it is the main reason why thieves will disengage losing fights and actively engage even ones at the rate that they do.

Now before anybody whines about nerfing it, just stop and think for a second and perhaps realize that it’s absolutely ridiculous how every thief has to use a shortbow. Thieves are so limited in their weapon choices and on top of that, they are held hostage by that weapon.

Nerfing Infiltrator’s Arrow would go a long way in making other roamers fill that slot and open up new possibilities for the thief at the same time.

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Posted by: Pyriall.5027

Pyriall.5027

Reverting mug nerf is probably the single worst thing they could do to all of pvp. Try to remember why it was nerfed in the first place.

I used sleight of hand before they added the steal reduction… I agree that it is a bit OP, but it does have a huge opportunity cost as well. Maybe there is some middle ground.

I disagree with your points on shortbow… Usually spamming #3 is a sign that the thief is in really bad shape (they had to swap to shortbow after all). If possible I think the skill should be sped up so that it doesn’t last so long when used 4+ times in a row.

Edit: to Ricky saying s/d is untargetable… I think this is only partly true. Good players recognize their evade frames on flanking now and target swap with CC effects so they don’t have much chance to start spamming anti-focus dodge rolls. Zerk s/d has some decent counter play in this way, but I believe it will need reevaluated with the new changes coming up to runes/sigils. Will intelligence/energy soldier amulet s/d be a thing? Idk but soldier s/d can be surprisingly strong already even without speccing into evades

Mug was nerfed because hotjoin heroes were not able to l2p, no one in high end tPvP was crying about thieves and the most succesful team ( Paradigm, ndr) was at the top of the food chain without one ( and thieves, inbetween mug nerf and S/D buff were almost totally worthless).

Now, with increased ini regen, having mug reverted would be the best way to handle thieves issue, that more than pure damage is SURVIVABILITY AND SUSTAIN, mostly mug and sleight of hand’s steal reduction related.

Reagrding shortbow, if the thief is in a bad shape letting him LOLOLOLOL evade-spam is ridicolous, reason why thieves are not easy to focus even without speccing into evades.

Bad thieves can win against good ones simply because that thief randomly evaded the burst while evade spamming randomly, the same regarding other professions ( ele burst randomly evaded by shortbow 3 spam).

This is unacceptable, it was acceptable pre ini buff since a thief would be dead meat after a couple of evades, now it isn’t with 50% vigor uptime and super ini regen.

And regarding S/D, it’s still the most broken thief build by far, point is S/P is stronger in teamfights.

S/D thieves can’t be focused, it’s a fact.

It’s fine if a thief oneshots you, it’s not fine if he’s also able to outsustain you.

Any game which wants any semblance of balance should not condone one shotting someone. You have a whole map dedicated to that concept and it is the most despised map in the game.

LoL is full of oneshots, as long as they’re skillshots.

Thief burst is still a skillshot, you won’t be oneshoetted anyway and you can easily evade it.

Skyhammer is hater because it’s full of ONESHOTS MECHANICS easily spammed by some classes, without skill shots ( stealth pulls, mesmer focus etc. etc.).

A skillshot burst is not a oneshot mechanic.

Thief burst is not a skill shot…What are you on about? Currently there are so many teleports to make sure you land your burst it is nigh impossible to miss it. If you do miss it; don’t worry you’ll be able to try again in a very short period of time.

Pistol Whip

in PvP

Posted by: Mrbig.8019

Mrbig.8019

Reverting mug nerf is probably the single worst thing they could do to all of pvp. Try to remember why it was nerfed in the first place.

I used sleight of hand before they added the steal reduction… I agree that it is a bit OP, but it does have a huge opportunity cost as well. Maybe there is some middle ground.

I disagree with your points on shortbow… Usually spamming #3 is a sign that the thief is in really bad shape (they had to swap to shortbow after all). If possible I think the skill should be sped up so that it doesn’t last so long when used 4+ times in a row.

Edit: to Ricky saying s/d is untargetable… I think this is only partly true. Good players recognize their evade frames on flanking now and target swap with CC effects so they don’t have much chance to start spamming anti-focus dodge rolls. Zerk s/d has some decent counter play in this way, but I believe it will need reevaluated with the new changes coming up to runes/sigils. Will intelligence/energy soldier amulet s/d be a thing? Idk but soldier s/d can be surprisingly strong already even without speccing into evades

Mug was nerfed because hotjoin heroes were not able to l2p, no one in high end tPvP was crying about thieves and the most succesful team ( Paradigm, ndr) was at the top of the food chain without one ( and thieves, inbetween mug nerf and S/D buff were almost totally worthless).

Now, with increased ini regen, having mug reverted would be the best way to handle thieves issue, that more than pure damage is SURVIVABILITY AND SUSTAIN, mostly mug and sleight of hand’s steal reduction related.

Reagrding shortbow, if the thief is in a bad shape letting him LOLOLOLOL evade-spam is ridicolous, reason why thieves are not easy to focus even without speccing into evades.

Bad thieves can win against good ones simply because that thief randomly evaded the burst while evade spamming randomly, the same regarding other professions ( ele burst randomly evaded by shortbow 3 spam).

This is unacceptable, it was acceptable pre ini buff since a thief would be dead meat after a couple of evades, now it isn’t with 50% vigor uptime and super ini regen.

And regarding S/D, it’s still the most broken thief build by far, point is S/P is stronger in teamfights.

S/D thieves can’t be focused, it’s a fact.

It’s fine if a thief oneshots you, it’s not fine if he’s also able to outsustain you.

Any game which wants any semblance of balance should not condone one shotting someone. You have a whole map dedicated to that concept and it is the most despised map in the game.

LoL is full of oneshots, as long as they’re skillshots.

Thief burst is still a skillshot, you won’t be oneshoetted anyway and you can easily evade it.

Skyhammer is hater because it’s full of ONESHOTS MECHANICS easily spammed by some classes, without skill shots ( stealth pulls, mesmer focus etc. etc.).

A skillshot burst is not a oneshot mechanic.

Thief burst is not a skill shot…What are you on about? Currently there are so many teleports to make sure you land your burst it is nigh impossible to miss it. If you do miss it; don’t worry you’ll be able to try again in a very short period of time.

This because traited steal is on a 20 secs CD.

Bringing it at 30 secs CD with no further reductions would solve this issue.

2 teleports both on 30 secs CD.

This would also nerf fury and swiftness uptime, and stability ripping, and also with mug no longer healing, sustain.

Thief isssue is that it has too much sustain for the damage it deals, a thief specced for damage shouldn’t be able to go 1vs1 against basically all classes aside engeneers.

In the old days if i went 1vs1 i would have died to all classes if i did a single mistake ( on D/P), now perfectly played D/P beats almost everything, so we should ask….

What has really changed ?

We all know the answer, and the issues are ini regen, sleight of hand and disabling shot.

use your brain.