Guild Wars 2

Mrbig.8019:

Pyriall.5027:

Mrbig.8019:

ens.9854:

Reverting mug nerf is probably the single worst thing they could do to all of pvp. Try to remember why it was nerfed in the first place.

I used sleight of hand before they added the steal reduction… I agree that it is a bit OP, but it does have a huge opportunity cost as well. Maybe there is some middle ground.

I disagree with your points on shortbow… Usually spamming #3 is a sign that the thief is in really bad shape (they had to swap to shortbow after all). If possible I think the skill should be sped up so that it doesn’t last so long when used 4+ times in a row.

Edit: to Ricky saying s/d is untargetable… I think this is only partly true. Good players recognize their evade frames on flanking now and target swap with CC effects so they don’t have much chance to start spamming anti-focus dodge rolls. Zerk s/d has some decent counter play in this way, but I believe it will need reevaluated with the new changes coming up to runes/sigils. Will intelligence/energy soldier amulet s/d be a thing? Idk but soldier s/d can be surprisingly strong already even without speccing into evades

Mug was nerfed because hotjoin heroes were not able to l2p, no one in high end tPvP was crying about thieves and the most succesful team ( Paradigm, ndr) was at the top of the food chain without one ( and thieves, inbetween mug nerf and S/D buff were almost totally worthless).

Now, with increased ini regen, having mug reverted would be the best way to handle thieves issue, that more than pure damage is SURVIVABILITY AND SUSTAIN, mostly mug and sleight of hand’s steal reduction related.

Reagrding shortbow, if the thief is in a bad shape letting him LOLOLOLOL evade-spam is ridicolous, reason why thieves are not easy to focus even without speccing into evades.

Bad thieves can win against good ones simply because that thief randomly evaded the burst while evade spamming randomly, the same regarding other professions ( ele burst randomly evaded by shortbow 3 spam).

This is unacceptable, it was acceptable pre ini buff since a thief would be dead meat after a couple of evades, now it isn’t with 50% vigor uptime and super ini regen.

And regarding S/D, it’s still the most broken thief build by far, point is S/P is stronger in teamfights.

S/D thieves can’t be focused, it’s a fact.

Pyriall.5027:

Mrbig.8019:

It’s fine if a thief oneshots you, it’s not fine if he’s also able to outsustain you.

Any game which wants any semblance of balance should not condone one shotting someone. You have a whole map dedicated to that concept and it is the most despised map in the game.

LoL is full of oneshots, as long as they’re skillshots.

Thief burst is still a skillshot, you won’t be oneshoetted anyway and you can easily evade it.

Skyhammer is hater because it’s full of ONESHOTS MECHANICS easily spammed by some classes, without skill shots ( stealth pulls, mesmer focus etc. etc.).

A skillshot burst is not a oneshot mechanic.

Thief burst is not a skill shot…What are you on about? Currently there are so many teleports to make sure you land your burst it is nigh impossible to miss it. If you do miss it; don’t worry you’ll be able to try again in a very short period of time.

This because traited steal is on a 20 secs CD.

Bringing it at 30 secs CD with no further reductions would solve this issue.

2 teleports both on 30 secs CD.

This would also nerf fury and swiftness uptime, and stability ripping, and also with mug no longer healing, sustain.

Thief isssue is that it has too much sustain for the damage it deals, a thief specced for damage shouldn’t be able to go 1vs1 against basically all classes aside engeneers.

In the old days if i went 1vs1 i would have died to all classes if i did a single mistake ( on D/P), now perfectly played D/P beats almost everything, so we should ask….

What has really changed ?

We all know the answer, and the issues are ini regen, sleight of hand and disabling shot.

use your brain.

Don’t come in here telling people to use their brain when you’ve already lied about what profession you play: Necro (thief main) and then followed that up trying to associate skill with leaderboards as a prerequisite to have a conversation. Then, don’t get me started on your claim that thief burst is a skill shot.

Pyriall.5027:

apt.9184:

JonathanSharp.7094:

Thanks for keeping it civil and constructive in here guys. It always helps us when you guys proffer facts/theories as to why something’s not balanced correctly, and then offer proposed solutions as to how you think it can be fixed. You guys are also doing a good job of honing in on where it’s most used, how it’s used, what you feel is too strong about it.

One recurring theme I’m seeing here is people feel that the initiative work lately has helped to benefit this skill.

Thanks for keeping it constructive.

Yea I agree with you in general the initiative regen buff really made thieves just so effective atm it makes every other glass cannon obsolete. PW became so much better with reduction of time it takes for full pw and initiative buff made thief able to spam skills with little risk. It also makes it more mobile since you can short bow 5 further with more initiative regen. I feel if initiative regen was reverted that would fix the problems right now.

It wasn’t the initiative regen buff. That only exacerbated the situation. There were plenty of s/p thieves playing prior to that buff. The problem is inherent to the thief profession and its mechanics.

Early in the thread I outlined the poison on steal and 900 range initial blind application on blinding powder. Those are just some small things, but similar to the elementalist it is a combination of those small things that make them the kings of the berserker builds. I’m sure we can build a laundry list of little things that could/should be adjusted. Unfortunately, it doesn’t look like the featured patch will address any of those issues.

It’s ok to have a king, but it’s not ok to have such a large discrepancy between the king and the next best berserker build. If you evaluate some of the other builds, excluding thief, they are pretty close to each other balance wise. Some off more burst at the expense of providing group utility and others may provide more mobility and offer less burst. At least with the other professions there is a tradeoff.

Well pre patch you could not run pistol whip because of them nerfing the stun the patch before, but recently they made the whole sequence of it faster with initiative regen buff it caused things to spiral into its favor. Yes trick thief was strong pre patch but not to the level it is at right now. That buff was so significant to trickery thief, thus making it the “king” of zerker classes. I do agree steal in general with a thief traited 30 into trickery is kind of stupid. It is insta cast that poisons due to 10 in first tree, dazes you for a second, on a 20 cd, that can get op steal like the warrior one.

Lordrosicky.5813:

S/D is still ridiculously overpowered because it does massive damage whilst be even harder to target than a bunker guardian is. Any build dishing out massive damage should be balanced around the fact that the other team can counter play it by focusing that target. S/D this is impossible. That is why it is still really overpowered.

Show me one vid (post December 10th) where this is the case. I can crush S/D thieves on any of my five toons. S/D is extremely easy to focus, especially since cripple, chill, and immobilize are all devastating against the build. Its sole defensive mechanic isn’t even that strong- certainly hardly any stronger than, for example, protection, given the damage loss required to maintain large amounts of evasion, and the fact that it is S/D’s only defensive mechanic.

Even if the build is harder to kill than a bunker, it certainly isn’t harder to defeat- you can easily decap/cap against an S/D build.

Pyriall.5027:

S/D compared to S/P and D/P may not be too strong, but it certainly is relative to other berserker builds.

Really? Why is that? You people are quick to make these kinds of claims, but there’s literally nothing to support them. I run zerker on all of my toons, and I can still beat S/D builds. Heck, the only argument I’ve ever seen for S/D being “OP” was a tournament in which Helseth was supposedly getting destroyed by Sizer, who was constantly harassing him. In reality, if you took three seconds to analyze the gameplay (rather than say “look! Sizer is 1v1’ing Helseth! Therefore S/D is OP”, as most people did when they saw the vid), you’d find that the battle between the mesmer and Sizer was very even, perhaps even in Helseth’s favor when you consider the fact that Sizer was doing nothing for his team.

Arganthium.5638:

Lordrosicky.5813:

S/D is still ridiculously overpowered because it does massive damage whilst be even harder to target than a bunker guardian is. Any build dishing out massive damage should be balanced around the fact that the other team can counter play it by focusing that target. S/D this is impossible. That is why it is still really overpowered.

Show me one vid (post December 10th) where this is the case. I can crush S/D thieves on any of my five toons. S/D is extremely easy to focus, especially since cripple, chill, and immobilize are all devastating against the build. Its sole defensive mechanic isn’t even that strong- certainly hardly any stronger than, for example, protection, given the damage loss required to maintain large amounts of evasion, and the fact that it is S/D’s only defensive mechanic.

Even if the build is harder to kill than a bunker, it certainly isn’t harder to defeat- you can easily decap/cap against an S/D build.

Pyriall.5027:

S/D compared to S/P and D/P may not be too strong, but it certainly is relative to other berserker builds.

Really? Why is that? You people are quick to make these kinds of claims, but there’s literally nothing to support them. I run zerker on all of my toons, and I can still beat S/D builds. Heck, the only argument I’ve ever seen for S/D being “OP” was a tournament in which Helseth was supposedly getting destroyed by Sizer, who was constantly harassing him. In reality, if you took three seconds to analyze the gameplay (rather than say “look! Sizer is 1v1’ing Helseth! Therefore S/D is OP”, as most people did when they saw the vid), you’d find that the battle between the mesmer and Sizer was very even, perhaps even in Helseth’s favor when you consider the fact that Sizer was doing nothing for his team.

So, you’re saying the match up of Sizer vs Helseth isn’t proof in one statement and then saying it is proof to support your position in the next?

People have given you reasons as to why it is strong, you just choose not to listen. Compared to all other berserker builds S/D is still strong. Feel free to offer up some suggestions and videos on how as any other profession you get to bring the same mobility and impact for your team as any other berserker build compared to that of an S/D thief. Outside of an elementalist every other berserker profession has huge telegraphs to their burst. An S/D has so many options to handle that (between teleports and evasions). You’re hardly going to be able to lock down an S/D thief as any other berserker build. If you don’t have random AoE flying around, you’re not hitting them with your burst.

Pyriall.5027:

So, you’re saying the match up of Sizer vs Helseth isn’t proof in one statement and then saying it is proof to support your position in the next?

C’mon, man, just read what I said. I said that it isn’t evidence that S/D is OP in one sentence, and then stated that, if anything, it is evidence to the contrary in another sentence.

Also, I’m not sure what this “evidence” you’re referring to is.

People have given you reasons as to why it is strong, you just choose not to listen.

Those arguments mean absolutely nothing without the evidence to back them up.

Compared to all other berserker builds S/D is still strong. Feel free to offer up some suggestions and videos on how as any other profession you get to bring the same mobility and impact for your team as any other berserker build compared to that of an S/D thief.

I’ve written lots about this in the past, you can just go through my past posts if you’re really that interested. You also neglect to mention that thief is terrible at impeding enemy mobility outside of one, maybe two skills. Just a few examples, though…

Mesmer- has nearly the same amount of mobility via Blink, Portal, Phase Retreat, and Curtain (if you’re a Focus user). Can also largely impede enemy mobility via CC, immobilize, cripple, chill (for certain disruption builds). Has a longer attack range than thief (1200 versus our maximum 900).

Guardian- can have a lot of mobility via Flashing Blade/LoFaith (for Sword and GS users, respectively) combined with JI. Can also impede mobility via CC and area-denial.

Elementalist- has a ton of mobility/mobility-impeding skills, such as:

• Lightning Flash
• Burning Retreat
• Frozen Ground
• Gust
• Windborne Speed
• Static Field
• Unsteady Ground
• Shockwave
• Burning Speed
• Frozen Burst
• Shocking Aura (sometimes)
• Magnetic Grasp/ Leap
• Frost Aura (sometimes)
• RTL
• Updraft
• Earthquake

And so on.

Anyways, hopefully you’re getting the point now.

Outside of an elementalist every other berserker profession has huge telegraphs to their burst.

Lol what? Eles don’t have large telegraphs to their bursts?

It also depends on what you mean by “telegraphs”. For example, I could argue that my guardian’s JI+Smite Condition+VoJustice+Zealot’s Defense burst isn’t highly telegraphed, since you can’t predict it before it happens (but once it does, it is easy to see). Telegraphs aren’t always bad, either: Mind Wrack’s “telegraph” can sometimes be beneficial by allowing you to stack bursts consecutively so that it becomes impossible to evade all of them.

An S/D has so many options to handle that (between teleports and evasions). You’re hardly going to be able to lock down an S/D thief as any other berserker build. If you don’t have random AoE flying around, you’re not hitting them with your burst.

S/D is hardly able to be considered a “burst” build in the first place. The only attack it has with a decently high coefficient is LS, and LS is always preceded by FS anyways. If nothing else, that is a massive telegraph. Otherwise, the weapon coefficients on other skills aren’t nearly high enough to qualify them as being bursts.

If you have “random AoE flying around” to attack an S/D thief, you’re countering the thief incorrectly. There are multiple points during the thief’s attacks where he’s vulnerable (i.e. during IS, at the end of FS, etc.). That’s taking the more difficult route, though. I just prefer the “brute force” method where I basically put pressure on the thief as I would against any other class. The thief doesn’t have some kind of perms-evasion on, and since most of the damage coefficients are relatively low, you can survive and thrive just by going up to the thief and using your attacks regularly.

Slim.3024:

The fact that thieves are more likely to engage in these 1v1s is the main reason they are considered overpowered.

Plus the fact that any other berserk roaming build will easily die to thiefs ? Or you did not consider that ?

Pyriall.5027:

Don’t come in here telling people to use their brain when you’ve already lied about what profession you play: Necro (thief main) and then followed that up trying to associate skill with leaderboards as a prerequisite to have a conversation. Then, don’t get me started on your claim that thief burst is a skill shot.

Lol so you really think people can’t play various professions ?

My main is thief but i also play power necro ( always have) with decent success, especially against thieves ( one of the easiest professions to eat alive 1vs1), at least it’s the only proff i can say i play at a good level aside thief.

I’m using leaderboards as a “prerequisite” because if you are not good enough to be in it, knowing they’re a joke and you really don’t need to be THAT good to be in it, then you CAN’T have a legit idea about how some stuff plays.

Thief burst IS a skill shot because it has a build up, especially now that nobody runs quickness u-skills ( like in the past when the burst was quickened steal-stab+ HS and the thief couldn’t even be seen, and THAT was a problem).

When i play team q with my guildies ( very rare, since i mostly solo pug) we ALWAYS know where opponent’s thief is, in order to avoid backcapping or ( guess what) being bursted down by the full combo ( when they play D/P) and usually it comes down to thief pressuring the other thief, engaging a side 1vs1.

If you’re not able to do this, than it’s your fault, if you can’t follow the thief then don’t expect people to take your opinion seriously, because it’s seriously a l2p issue.

Thief is OP but due to various issues like people with good experience and knowledge ( of top tier PvP) have already pointed out.

Your claims agains thieves have no foundation, it’s more of a personal hate.

Arganthium.5638:

C’mon, man, just read what I said. I said that it isn’t evidence that S/D is OP in one sentence, and then stated that, if anything, it is evidence to the contrary in another sentence.?

Am I in the Twilight Zone? You’re saying exactly what I said…

Arganthium.5638:

Those arguments mean absolutely nothing without the evidence to back them up..

I take it from your follow up session that your “evidence” consists of listing abilities. I can list abilities as well, but I’ll differ to the people who have already listed them.

Arganthium.5638:

I’ve written lots about this in the past, you can just go through my past posts if you’re really that interested. ..

I don’t understand you…“HEY GIVE ME EVIDENCE!” When asked for evidence to support your position, “I’ve provided it previously”

Arganthium.5638:

Mesmer- has nearly the same amount of mobility via Blink, Portal, Phase Retreat, and Curtain (if you’re a Focus user). Can also largely impede enemy mobility via CC, immobilize, cripple, chill (for certain disruption builds). Has a longer attack range than thief (1200 versus our maximum 900).

Guardian- can have a lot of mobility via Flashing Blade/LoFaith (for Sword and GS users, respectively) combined with JI. Can also impede mobility via CC and area-denial.

Elementalist- has a ton of mobility/mobility-impeding skills, such as:

• Lightning Flash
• Burning Retreat
• Frozen Ground
• Gust
• Windborne Speed
• Static Field
• Unsteady Ground
• Shockwave
• Burning Speed
• Frozen Burst
• Shocking Aura (sometimes)
• Magnetic Grasp/ Leap
• Frost Aura (sometimes)
• RTL
• Updraft
• Earthquake

And so on.

I guess we’re just going to list abilities now…I just have to laugh at that one.

Arganthium.5638:

Lol what? Eles don’t have large telegraphs to their bursts?

Are you saying Fresh Air has large telegraphs? Or are you saying you think I said that eles do have large telegraph?

Arganthium.5638:

S/D is hardly able to be considered a “burst” build in the first place. The only attack it has with a decently high coefficient is LS, and LS is always preceded by FS anyways. If nothing else, that is a massive telegraph. Otherwise, the weapon coefficients on other skills aren’t nearly high enough to qualify them as being bursts.

Not sure what point this served

Arganthium.5638:

… The thief doesn’t have some kind of perms-evasion on,.

And there’s the problem having this discussion with you…with the large telegraphs of other professions burst, the s/d thief though not “perma-evasion” is near “perma-evasion” to avoid too much of the burst of other professions.

The problem with having discussions with people like you is that you have ONE horse in this race; others have 8.

Mrbig.8019:

Lol so you really think people can’t play various professions ?

What an intentionally misleading statement that is. Of course I know other people play other professions, as I have already stated I play all 8. You know very well you were intentionally being misleading with your representation that you play necro as a means to disguise your bias as your main is a thief.

Mrbig.8019:

I’m using leaderboards as a “prerequisite” because if you are not good enough to be in it, knowing they’re a joke and you really don’t need to be THAT good to be in it, then you CAN’T have a legit idea about how some stuff plays.

First off, I was in the top 200 in both queues and as I have stated; it is nothing more than glorified hotjoin. You can check my name, remove one L. However; using that is a prerequisite after CONDEMING someone else for doing it just goes to show the level of personality we are dealing with here. NO ONE TAKES LEADERBOARDS SERIOUSLY and is the LAST THING that should be used as a means to established someone is or is not making a valid point. It’s extremely laughable using your logic; as it would mean that anyone higher than on the boards would be more correct than you if they came on and said…thieves needed adjustments and you would then have to concede to that idea.

Mrbig.8019:

Thief burst IS a skill shot because it has a build up, especially now that nobody runs quickness u-skills ( like in the past when the burst was quickened steal-stab+ HS and the thief couldn’t even be seen, and THAT was a problem).

End of discussion with you. If you think thief burst is a skill shot, I’m no longer willing to continue this conversation with you. There is no aiming no prediction of movement on the part of a thief….in short, guaranteeing your burst through a teleport or gap closer (that you don’t even aim) is not a skill shot.

Mrbig.8019:

When i play team q with my guildies ( very rare, since i mostly solo pug) we ALWAYS know where opponent’s thief is, in order to avoid backcapping or ( guess what) being bursted down by the full combo ( when they play D/P) and usually it comes down to thief pressuring the other thief, engaging a side 1vs1.

If you’re not able to do this, than it’s your fault, if you can’t follow the thief then don’t expect people to take your opinion seriously, because it’s seriously a l2p issue.).

What does this have to do with anything? Even in your own statement you’ve already recognized that it is one thief pressuring another thief and not another berserker build pressuring the thief…and the reason is that thieves make other berserkers obsolete.

Mrbig.8019:

Your claims agains thieves have no foundation, it’s more of a personal hate.

This is beyond laughable. Personal hate? I play thief and rather extensively. I also play every other profession and am speaking for the experience of those other professions playing against thieves. Your problem is you are so short sighted and are swayed by your limited exposure to only a few professions; your thief being your main.

What aspect of the thief do yall not wanna nerf???

PW is bad because of the same reason Warriors are bad.

IQ requirement is at the level of an ape

I dont see a problem with Pistol Whip, its like the smallest problem there is in sPvP.

Azukas.1426:

What aspect of the thief do yall not wanna nerf???

PW is bad because of the same reason Warriors are bad.

IQ requirement is at the level of an ape

Aspects of the thief I don’t want to nerf. The boonstrip. The teleports. The boon sharing on steal. Shadow Refuge rezzing. Venomshare for team fights.

You know, crap that you can’t abuse like stealth from BP, spammable backstab through blinds and blocks, spammable Blurred Frenzy that hits twice as hard and stuns, ridiculous burst damage.

Nerf the reset capabilities of the thief. Nerf the stealth access. Nerf the burst damage. Buff their sustain and group utility.

All those things were indirectly or directly nerfed by the suggestions in this thread.

Pyriall.5027:

stuff

Lol every high LB ranked people wants thief nerfed, i main thief and i want it nerfed.

The point is KNOWING what is wrong and what is fine.

A thief 2 shotting you is fine, it was able to one shot guards in the past ( it needed ITS EXECUTION TIME slowered, and in fact it happened), anyone crying about thief damage is really a scrub and should seriously l2p.

What is NOT it’s thief survivability and capability to decide engagements.

The second one, mentioned by karsaib, is what defines the thief and can’t be nerfed.

Its survivability received small buffs which become huge in the long run: ini buff ( disabling shot spam), Mug nerf ( 2k heal) and Slieght of hand ( steal every 20 secs CD).

THESE are things that should be looked at.

Not pistol whip, not ini regen ( tough it wasn’t really a needed buff but whatever), not damage.

Not even our overpowered utilities like shadow refuge and shadowstep, because they’re not gamebreaking and poor design.

Unlike shortbow 3 spam or multi-tasking-1button- istant skill on a 20 secs CD.

I’ll say it again.

aftercast on disabling shot

Sleight of hand fixed to 30 secs

Mug nerf reverted with slight decrease to damage

Thief fixed.

Mrbig.8019:

Pyriall.5027:

stuff

Lol every high LB ranked people wants thief nerfed, i main thief and i want it nerfed.

The point is KNOWING what is wrong and what is fine.

A thief 2 shotting you is fine, it was able to one shot guards in the past ( it needed ITS EXECUTION TIME slowered, and in fact it happened), anyone crying about thief damage is really a scrub and should seriously l2p.

What is NOT it’s thief survivability and capability to decide engagements.

The second one, mentioned by karsaib, is what defines the thief and can’t be nerfed.

Its survivability received small buffs which become huge in the long run: ini buff ( disabling shot spam), Mug nerf ( 2k heal) and Slieght of hand ( steal every 20 secs CD).

THESE are things that should be looked at.

Not pistol whip, not ini regen ( tough it wasn’t really a needed buff but whatever), not damage.

Not even our overpowered utilities like shadow refuge and shadowstep, because they’re not gamebreaking and poor design.

Unlike shortbow 3 spam or multi-tasking-1button- istant skill on a 20 secs CD.

I’ll say it again.

aftercast on disabling shot

Sleight of hand fixed to 30 secs

Mug nerf reverted with slight decrease to damage

Thief fixed.

Your recommendations are no more valid than any other one and that’s the point of the forums to propose ideas and have a discussion. There is no right or wrong answer, it’s what we view to be most beneficial. I’ve stated the slight areas which stand to improve the game play of other professions berserker builds. I just don’t know where you get the idea that some how your voice means more than others.

Pyriall.5027:

I take it from your follow up session that your “evidence” consists of listing abilities. I can list abilities as well, but I’ll differ to the people who have already listed them.

What did you want me to post? An in-depth analysis of why of those abilities provides mobility or decreases enemy mobility and is thus relevant to your question

Pyriall.5027:

Feel free to offer up some suggestions and videos on how as any other profession you get to bring the same mobility and impact for your team as any other berserker build compared to that of an S/D thief.

I don’t understand you…“HEY GIVE ME EVIDENCE!” When asked for evidence to support your position, “I’ve provided it previously”

I gave you a source to look for what you wanted to find (or, given what your comments have consisted of as of late, what you didn’t want to find). I then proceeded to provide additional evidence to answer your question that did not involve providing a source to look at.

I guess we’re just going to list abilities now…I just have to laugh at that one.

Sorry? I fail to see how answering your request for “suggestions… on how as any other profession you get to bring the same mobility… as any other berserker build compared to that of an S/D thief” with a series of abilities that show how other professions can get the same amount of mobility as an S/D thief is laughable.

Are you saying Fresh Air has large telegraphs? Or are you saying you think I said that eles do have large telegraph?

Sorry, I guess I missed the memo that we were now considering Electric Discharge (with an incredible damage coefficient of 0.7!1!!1) a “burst” skill. Even with Lightning Strike (which becomes significantly more predictable after the attunement change and Electric Discharge), you’re still hitting for less than a Level 1 Eviscerate.

Not sure what point this served

A misunderstanding.

And there’s the problem having this discussion with you…with the large telegraphs of other professions burst, the s/d thief though not “perma-evasion” is near “perma-evasion” to avoid too much of the burst of other professions.

Imagine you bursted at random times (as opposed to specific times) while fighting a thief. Now, say that the thief evades (for example) 50% of all damage (which is being extremely optimistic- or pessimistic, depending on your point of view). Are you implying that you would hit your bursts 50% of the time when you burst at random, but almost never when you burst at specific times? Because if that’s the case (with largely non-telegraphed bursts, granted), then you’ve got a serious problem with your skill level.

Now, we could go back to this argument about telegraphed bursts, but again, how many bursts are really that telegraphed? And how often is that telegraph a problem? I provided you reasons why the telegraph on Mind Wrack isn’t always a bad thing (and can sometimes be a good thing). I gave you an example of a burst on Guardian that was extremely quick. I mean… If bursts are so telegraphed, then why do burst builds even exist? Bursts, by definition, are few and far between, and most builds have evasion/vigor, protection, Distortion, teleportation, invuln, etc. as defensive mechanics in their kitten nal. Bursts have to be fairly rapid in their consecutive executions in order to overcome these mechanics, but then they stop becoming burst builds and are much closer to GC/DPS builds, and if that’s the case, then that “burst damage” stops becoming burst damage and simply starts becoming a build’s regular damage.

The point is that your statement is ultimately self-contradictory: if burst builds are predictable, then they should naturally be able to be countered by defensive mechanics with ease and thus should not exist, unless those bursts get closer together- but then they stop being burst builds, by their very definition, and it becomes impossible for S/D thief to “evade” all of those bursts, because that burst becomes regular damage. Obviously, though, burst builds do exist, and they can be dangerous to S/D thieves (just look at how good S/P is against S/D). As a result, you have to contradict yourself by saying that bursts are not very highly telegraphed or are extremely difficult to evade in general, in which case, my argument reverts back to the first of these last three paragraphs.

The problem with having discussions with people like you is that you have ONE horse in this race; others have 8.

I guess you must’ve missed the part where I said that I play 5 different professions consistently (and the only reason I don’t play more is because I don’t have the real-life money or the in-game money to buy three more character slots).

Arganthium.5638:

What did you want me to post? An in-depth analysis of why of those abilities provides mobility or decreases enemy mobility and is thus relevant to your question

Well then, here’s your evidence…http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/ put in thief as the profession and have fun looking up abilities. Be sure to mix and match weapon sets and traits at random.

Arganthium.5638:

I gave you a source to look for what you wanted to find (or, given what your comments have consisted of as of late, what you didn’t want to find). I then proceeded to provide additional evidence to answer your question that did not involve providing a source to look at.

A source for what? To look at abilities and pull another topic that wasn’t discussed? Area denial and movement control…Here:

Choking Gas
Pistol Whip
Body Shot
Disabling Shot
Withdraw
Headshot
Infiltraitors strike etc etc etc…

Arganthium.5638:

Sorry? I fail to see how answering your request for “suggestions… on how as any other profession you get to bring the same mobility… as any other berserker build compared to that of an S/D thief” with a series of abilities that show how other professions can get the same amount of mobility as an S/D thief is laughable. .

You even trying to compare thief mobility to that of others is what is laughable.

Sorry, I guess I missed the memo that we were now considering Electric Discharge (with an incredible damage coefficient of 0.7!1!!1) a “burst” skill. Even with Lightning Strike (which becomes significantly more predictable after the attunement change and Electric Discharge), you’re still hitting for less than a Level 1 Eviscerate.
.

I’m not sure if you’re serious, or you really are not that versed with the burst potential of a fresh air ele…

Arganthium.5638:

Imagine you bursted at random times (as opposed to specific times) while fighting a thief. Now, say that the thief evades (for example) 50% of all damage (which is being extremely optimistic- or pessimistic, depending on your point of view). Are you implying that you would hit your bursts 50% of the time when you burst at random, but almost never when you burst at specific times? Because if that’s the case (with largely non-telegraphed bursts, granted), then you’ve got a serious problem with your skill level. .

The point is, with other berserker builds vs thief…you need to set up your burst. Accompanied by the many “outs” a thief has to respond to the largely telegraphed burst it isn’t even a comparison. The thief will avoid the burst potential from other berserker builds at a larger rate than the other way around. Conversely a thief will land their burst at a higher rate because of the shorter turn around times on their set up. Hey…I missed my pistol whip steal…I’ll just use it again and use inf sig to land it. I would assume someone claiming to be at your level would understand this.

Arganthium.5638:

Now, we could go back to this argument about telegraphed bursts, but again, how many bursts are really that telegraphed? And how often is that telegraph a problem? I provided you reasons why the telegraph on Mind Wrack isn’t always a bad thing (and can sometimes be a good thing). I gave you an example of a burst on Guardian that was extremely quick. I mean… If bursts are so telegraphed, then why do burst builds even exist? Bursts, by definition, are few and far between, and most builds have evasion/vigor, protection, Distortion, teleportation, invuln, etc. as defensive mechanics in their kitten nal. Bursts have to be fairly rapid in their consecutive executions in order to overcome these mechanics, but then they stop becoming burst builds and are much closer to GC/DPS builds, and if that’s the case, then that “burst damage” stops becoming burst damage and simply starts becoming a build’s regular damage..

I don’t know where you are going with this. Same with your next section.

Area denial and movement control…Here:
(skills)

Lol?

Half of these skills are so ridiculously off from the skills I mentioned that I seriously have to doubt that you even read my post.

Choking Gas is an AoE (which is about to be nerfed anyways) that can be countered relatively easily with condi removal. Most AoE’s (that don’t directly impede movement, like Frozen Ground) aren’t even pseudo-Area Denial skills because their effects aren’t significant enough to make it worth staying out of the field. Choking Gas is far from being mobility-impeding (and it certainly doesn’t boost your own mobility).

Pistol Whip is more of an anti-mobility skill- for yourself. The stun is far too short to make it any significant immobilizer, and the root is extremely harmful to a player’s own mobility.

Body Shot? Have you ever even used this skill before? Either way, it’s virtually unusable even without it being as bad as it is because of how bad P/X builds are.

Disabling Shot falls largely into the same category as PW does, although here it’s a bit less clear. The cripple, again, is hardly meaningful, and the mobility is so lacking in versatility that it’s almost as bad as a root (especially when you consider how difficult it is to hold a point while constantly moving backwards).

Headshot? Wtf?

You even trying to compare thief mobility to that of others is what is laughable.

Laughable? There is a certain group of people (not me, but a significant part of the forum-going population) that believes that warriors have better mobility than thieves. I provided evidence to you that other classes have a lot of the same mobility that thieves have, so I’m not sure what’s so laughable about this outside of your outright ignorance of the comments you’re trying so hard to refute.

I’m not sure if you’re serious, or you really are not that versed with the burst potential of a fresh air ele…

I’m stating facts. The largest portion of the “burst” comes from other skills and from stat allocation, not from a relatively measly 0.7/1.9 damage coefficient across one/two skills. Otherwise, just about any build in the game could be considered a burst build.

The point is, with other berserker builds vs thief…you need to set up your burst.

Are you saying that thieves don’t have to set up their bursts?

Accompanied by the many “outs” a thief has to respond to the largely telegraphed burst it isn’t even a comparison.

I spent three paragraphs (two of which you admittedly ignored) talking about how those “highly telegraphed bursts”, by necessity, cannot be “highly telegraphed”- certainly not as highly telegraphed as you seem to imply.

As for “outs”, thief has literally only two direct defensive mechanics (outside of stat allocation): stealth and evasion. We all know what stealth’s problems are, and either way, only D/P has any significant access to stealth. As for evasion, S/P builds quite patently have a serious lack of evasion due to most other meta builds due to their lack of access to the Acro trait line and their lack of vigor. As for S/D’s “outs”, again, I addressed that in the two paragraphs you completely ignored.

The thief will avoid the burst potential from other berserker builds at a larger rate than the other way around. Conversely a thief will land their burst at a higher rate because of the shorter turn around times on their set up. Hey…I missed my pistol whip steal…I’ll just use it again and use inf sig to land it. I would assume someone claiming to be at your level would understand this.

Claiming to be at my level? What level is that? I’m not sure what you’re referring to here.

Thieves also have just about as much access to burst as any other burst build in the game: eles can access Fresh Air virtually whenever. Mind Wrack has an extremely short CD and doesn’t interfere with your personal abilities (it doesn’t have a cast time), and Phantasms’ skills have CDs completely separate from your own. Burst engineers have a huge number of resources to pull from in order to burst, and is much more able to land their burst (with the amount of CC they have). Also, how many times do you see a thief stealing and using PW and then consecutively doing the same thing with Infi Signet? Personally, I rarely see this- the initiative loss from PW is pretty large for this to happen so quickly, and the root is a significant impediment to being able to use the skill again so quickly.

I don’t know where you are going with this. Same with your next section.

Really?

The point is that your statement is ultimately self-contradictory: if burst builds are predictable, then they should naturally be able to be countered by defensive mechanics with ease and thus should not exist… (etc etc)

Arganthium.5638:

Pistol Whip is more of an anti-mobility skill- for yourself. The stun is far too short to make it any significant immobilizer, and the root is extremely harmful to a player’s own mobility.

Lolwot? Except you can literally teleport to the player while line-of-sighting him, with him unware you’re about to pop in, use PW which, by the way, evades all damage… and teleport back. So its basically a 100% no risk setup… and you’re saying its “extremely harmful to a player’s own mobility” ? wot m8?

Arganthium.5638:

Laughable? There is a certain group of people (not me, but a significant part of the forum-going population) that believes that warriors have better mobility than thieves. I provided evidence to you that other classes have a lot of the same mobility that thieves have, so I’m not sure what’s so laughable about this outside of your outright ignorance of the comments you’re trying so hard to refute.

This certain group of people are clearly idiots. Even though warriors do come close when talking about mobility do not compare only moving skills. Just think of a team fight going on… which class has the easiest tools to simply disengage without being seen and run to far point for a decap? This needs to also be taken into account when you’re saying “mobility” else lets go ahead and chose elementalists as the best “mobility” class. Btw, the answer for the question starts with “Thi” and ends with “ef”.

Really though even if they nerf pw they will just blow you up with the other 2 specs its deeper than just one set.

saVdoom.2067:

Arganthium.5638:

Pistol Whip is more of an anti-mobility skill- for yourself. The stun is far too short to make it any significant immobilizer, and the root is extremely harmful to a player’s own mobility.

Lolwot? Except you can literally teleport to the player while line-of-sighting him, with him unware you’re about to pop in, use PW which, by the way, evades all damage… and teleport back. So its basically a 100% no risk setup… and you’re saying its “extremely harmful to a player’s own mobility” ? wot m8?

I’m talking about specific skills here. IS might allow you to teleport, but PW in and of itself doesn’t. That’s what I’ve been discussing for a while now… Specific skills, if you saw my list. Otherwise, I could argue, for example, that Churning Earth has amazing teleporting ability without mentioning that you need Lightning Flash to teleport while using the ability. I’m saying that PW, by itself, is harmful to your mobility; chaining it with IS (preceding) and IR (afterwards) doesn’t change that. It just makes for a period of good mobility followed by nonexistent mobility followed by good mobility again, you make it sound like PW teleports you twice or something.

I’d also be much more selective about the usage of the phrase “evades all damage”… You might burn yourself when you take everything into account.

Arganthium.5638:

Laughable? There is a certain group of people (not me, but a significant part of the forum-going population) that believes that warriors have better mobility than thieves. I provided evidence to you that other classes have a lot of the same mobility that thieves have, so I’m not sure what’s so laughable about this outside of your outright ignorance of the comments you’re trying so hard to refute.

This certain group of people are clearly idiots. Even though warriors do come close when talking about mobility do not compare only moving skills. Just think of a team fight going on… which class has the easiest tools to simply disengage without being seen and run to far point for a decap? This needs to also be taken into account when you’re saying “mobility” else lets go ahead and chose elementalists as the best “mobility” class. Btw, the answer for the question starts with “Thi” and ends with “ef”.

Yeah, S/D can “disengage without being seen” with that insane stealth we have. Also, unless thief can now travel faster than light, I’m pretty sure that Mesmer can travel back home faster than thief can. And remember those “movement-impeding” abilities I was talking about earlier? This is where they really come in handy.

Anyways, mobility is far more useful than just for “lol letz dcap far” purposes. That you don’t acknowledge its dynamic purposes in battle (no, that doesn’t mean “its ability to run away”) is telling of your lack of any sort of strategic knowledge.

Either way, I’ve built all of my classes around mobility; thieves running off to decap a point is rarely a problem. And, of course, you can always help solve the problem by having a bunker or tank sitting on home point (or nearby).

Lotus.1682:

So are you going to complain about Necros, Decap Engis, Spirit Rangers, Condi Warriors and PU mesmers? If you are going to complain about Pistol Whip thieves it is only fair you complain about everything else that is unbalanced in this game. xD

Cut out all the cancer please anet.

Malediktus.9250:

I dont see a problem with Pistol Whip, its like the smallest problem there is in sPvP.

agree with this.

There is tons of unbalance builds, spec (condi > dd , mobility), base stats etc… from other class before complaining about 1 shief skill.
PW is easy to avoid (evade, stunbreak, stab).

Man pistol wip is balanced right now stop cry and learn to play, sword now is the most set nerfed thief in this game , i suggest really make moore practice, im boring right now to listen noobs in this forum cry about thief, we have low healthpool, low armour, what do you want ? whe should run in a map with a target on our head with written kill me ?! I think reading on forum that this is what the most player want for thief class so i think if anet will listen this should only delete thief class from this game and stop joke with comunity thief because there will be always players that cry about it, pls …. really learn how counter sword pistol, good players know how counter that build!

Pistol whip got buffed accidentally and should get nerfed, months later.

sure man try to get skill instead cry!

Sensotix.4106:

Please Anet don’t focus on the things you are implementing alone ..they are nice but we have so many issues with the current game at the moment concering class balance so please nerf pistol whip in the coming patch on the 15th of april
this build holds back a lot of classes

Sensotix, try learn to play instead asking nerf, if you want i sugget a mesmer that can give you some lesson, contact Mom Gnome he have alredy killed you in tourney! For now SHUT UP you and your little mesmer!

What I can say from MY point of is that there are no other acceptable options for thiefs actually. Since larcenous strike steals only one boon (remember how short the uptime of boons in this game is; most classes are able to generate 3+ boons in no time)
And with the upcoming patch the #YOLOPWSPAM will be forced onto a new level, because Dagger Types won’t feel any change by this low heal of 5%.
So the change is just a benefit for hot joiners who like to leap in minion Masters or smthn else.
A better balance would be like 15% heal for the first target and 2% further target for each.

After so many rounds on thief I think I’m an advanced player on this class and what I can say is that PW thiefs still don’t have any single chance in 1on1 to many other classes. Above all is the warrior class. You may beat low skilled ones, but if you meet an experienced player you still have no chance escepcially since infiltrator’s return is nerfed to freaking joke(hi, casttime against pure stun meta).

And the problem about daggers especially in spvp/tpvp is that the points can be conquered so easily by every tank class. But stealth is required for backstab or heal. So IF you win that 1on1 against a tank it took far too long that he fully conquered the point and bind a class on this point for long to re-conquer. This is why is think sword type (escpecially S/P) is the only option for now.

Pistol whip dmg was reduces by 15% long time ago btw.

Wanna have a real balance update? Start by removing the whole warrior cls or completely rebuild it (HP pool, cooldowns, dmg, heal signet, etc.)

My english is bad. Deal with it.

Alex.9268:

Pistol whip got buffed accidentally and should get nerfed, months later.

Funny, and I thought the 15% Dmgnerf came before the delay reduction. ?/

simonerd.8672:

Sensotix.4106:

Please Anet don’t focus on the things you are implementing alone ..they are nice but we have so many issues with the current game at the moment concering class balance so please nerf pistol whip in the coming patch on the 15th of april
this build holds back a lot of classes

Sensotix, try learn to play instead asking nerf, if you want i sugget a mesmer that can give you some lesson, contact Mom Gnome he have alredy killed you in tourney! For now SHUT UP you and your little mesmer!

Rank Name Character Wins Losses Win % World

1 Rom.4536 Róm 1469 227 86.62% Desolation
2 Metrix.5867 Misha Thinhat 1234 367 77.08% Desolation
3 Posi.4251 Pósï 389 83 82.42% Augury Rock [FR]
4 Kimoe.2607 Squares 1456 546 72.73% Desolation
5 thechamp.3092 Shh Shad Shh 1855 761 70.91% Desolation
6 Dave.7268 Âzron 952 123 88.56% Desolation
7 Maylo.5892 Mr Maylo 1102 295 78.88% Desolation
8 ZeParrot.9364 Níah 727 314 69.84% Piken Square
9 Tage.7045 Táge 803 192 80.70% Desolation
10 Fraelin.7409 Waddup Fraezz 994 187 84.17% Desolation
11 Sizer.2654 Sireph Roommate 762 127 85.71% Desolation
12 Levis.6137 General Kayun 1352 378 78.15% Riverside [DE]
13 Markleon.2396 Gíuliettâ Léon 1259 534 70.22% Kodash [DE]
14 KarsaiB.9475 Aldemiri 950 415 69.60% Desolation
15 MTC.9536 Trolling For Lífe 1646 529 75.68% Riverside [DE]
16 Sensotix.4106 Sensotix 2001 617 76.43% Riverside [DE]

man look at that lack of skill.

if top 100 players aren’t qualified to comment on balance, I don’t want to be a part of this game’s pvp scene.

The W/L does not say anything about the effectivity of the class. =/
If you want to get taken srs by ppl then try to argue more srs. (dunno what you wrote)

I really wonder why ppl try brag with stats which results are based on a whole team.

exii.8913:

I really wonder why ppl try brag with stats which results are based on a whole team.

this^

exii.8913:

The W/L does not say anything about the effectivity of the class. =/
If you want to get taken srs by ppl then try to argue more srs. (dunno what you wrote)

I really wonder why ppl try brag with stats which results are based on a whole team.

were you actually going to argue anything yourself or just keep insulting everybody?

crashmatusow.3908:

exii.8913:

The W/L does not say anything about the effectivity of the class. =/
If you want to get taken srs by ppl then try to argue more srs. (dunno what you wrote)

I really wonder why ppl try brag with stats which results are based on a whole team.

were you actually going to argue anything yourself or just keep insulting everybody?

Don’t mind me folks, continue your "DIScussion ".
<<quietly grabs some popcorn , sits-back and is ready to enjoy the show>>

Just to keep you motivated .
He did say that stats where teambased . you could say that’s his argument .

cheerz Trip

Arganthium.5638:

Lordrosicky.5813:

S/D is still ridiculously overpowered because it does massive damage whilst be even harder to target than a bunker guardian is. Any build dishing out massive damage should be balanced around the fact that the other team can counter play it by focusing that target. S/D this is impossible. That is why it is still really overpowered.

Show me one vid (post December 10th) where this is the case. I can crush S/D thieves on any of my five toons. S/D is extremely easy to focus, especially since cripple, chill, and immobilize are all devastating against the build. Its sole defensive mechanic isn’t even that strong- certainly hardly any stronger than, for example, protection, given the damage loss required to maintain large amounts of evasion, and the fact that it is S/D’s only defensive mechanic.

Even if the build is harder to kill than a bunker, it certainly isn’t harder to defeat- you can easily decap/cap against an S/D build.

Pyriall.5027:

S/D compared to S/P and D/P may not be too strong, but it certainly is relative to other berserker builds.

Really? Why is that? You people are quick to make these kinds of claims, but there’s literally nothing to support them. I run zerker on all of my toons, and I can still beat S/D builds. Heck, the only argument I’ve ever seen for S/D being “OP” was a tournament in which Helseth was supposedly getting destroyed by Sizer, who was constantly harassing him. In reality, if you took three seconds to analyze the gameplay (rather than say “look! Sizer is 1v1’ing Helseth! Therefore S/D is OP”, as most people did when they saw the vid), you’d find that the battle between the mesmer and Sizer was very even, perhaps even in Helseth’s favor when you consider the fact that Sizer was doing nothing for his team.

All thief specs are OP and have become more OP recently.

Why did no-name thieves suddenly shoot to stardom with each thief buff in recent times? It is because it became so braindead to play.

Arganthium.5638:

I’m talking about specific skills here. IS might allow you to teleport, but PW in and of itself doesn’t. That’s what I’ve been discussing for a while now… Specific skills, if you saw my list. Otherwise, I could argue, for example, that Churning Earth has amazing teleporting ability without mentioning that you need Lightning Flash to teleport while using the ability. I’m saying that PW, by itself, is harmful to your mobility; chaining it with IS (preceding) and IR (afterwards) doesn’t change that. It just makes for a period of good mobility followed by nonexistent mobility followed by good mobility again, you make it sound like PW teleports you twice or something.

What is the point in discussing selective skills by themselfs ? That does not promote a good argument at all. In fact indeed you should discuss used scenarios of gameplay not just “theorical… blablablabla”. Because if not you could say “mesmers got the highest mobility in the entire game.” not mentioning that their portal is once every 1 minute.

Arganthium.5638:

Yeah, S/D can “disengage without being seen” with that insane stealth we have. Also, unless thief can now travel faster than light, I’m pretty sure that Mesmer can travel back home faster than thief can. And remember those “movement-impeding” abilities I was talking about earlier? This is where they really come in handy.

Again, Mesmers are able to only use portal once every 1 minute. Thiefs can e-a-s-i-l-y disengage a team fight, and they’ll even lol at being focused while evading most damage and shortbow quickly to places, so yes, excuse me when you compare “single skills” but in 95% scenarios, thiefs have the higher mobility and disengage tools.

Lordrosicky.5813:

All thief specs are OP and have become more OP recently.

Why did no-name thieves suddenly shoot to stardom with each thief buff in recent times? It is because it became so braindead to play.

Toker? Sizer? LOL okay then. Nope, nobody ever heard of them before.

Also, are P/P and P/D OP as well? You did say all thief specs, after all. And where’s your proof? You keep saying “X is OP” but don’t provide any reasons for why X is, in fact, overpowered. It’s ridiculous. To be honest, the only reason why I’m still involved in this argument is for others to see how ridiculous people like you look for making all of these silly arguments and only supporting them by slamming your first down and saying “BUT I SAID IT’S OP SO IT MUST BE” or something to that effect.

saVdoom.2067:

What is the point in discussing selective skills by themselfs ? That does not promote a good argument at all. In fact indeed you should discuss used scenarios of gameplay not just “theorical… blablablabla”. Because if not you could say “mesmers got the highest mobility in the entire game.” not mentioning that their portal is once every 1 minute.

Wow, you are completely missing my point. By your argument, I could argue that literally every skill in the game is a mobility skill, because I’m not considering it by itself. Blurred Frenzy? Just use blink. Line of Warding? Judge’s Intervention. Heck… I can press W while using Combustive Shot, that must make it a mobility skill. No, you’re missing the point. People are always arguing that things like, for example, “Blink < Infi Arrow” (silly comment courtesy of Denofsin) when arguing about mobility. They don’t say “Churning Earth+Lightning Flash > Infi Arrow”, because then they’re not arguing about mobility any more, they’re arguing about damage.

As for your comment about Portal, I do consider CD’s. I also consider things like Shadow Refuge having a CD, or Shadowstep having a CD, or whatever. Honestly, I fail to see what the point of this comment (or the vast majority of your others, for that matter) is.

Again, Mesmers are able to only use portal once every 1 minute. Thiefs can e-a-s-i-l-y disengage a team fight, and they’ll even lol at being focused while evading most damage and shortbow quickly to places, so yes, excuse me when you compare “single skills” but in 95% scenarios, thiefs have the higher mobility and disengage tools.

Okay. First of all, you really need to differentiate between killing an opponent and winning a strategic battle. For instance, take bunkers: they never kill opponents, right? So if that’s the case, bunkers must be bad; even if they do catch up with fleeing thieves, they can’t kill them. Therefore, bunkers must be horrible builds. But wait! What’s the point of having a bunker in the first place? It’s to hold a point (generally, either mid or home). The idea is that, by holding the point, you can continue to gather from your point node and eventually win the game. So, you see, it doesn’t matter if the opponent flees; if he/she does, you’ve won.

As for the evasion and shortbowing all over the place… Have you ever even played the class? Shortbow doesn’t teleport you 900 units forward, it travels you to a place up to 900 units away from the place where you originally shot the arrow. Usually, in the time it takes for the arrow to land, you’ve already traveled at least half of the distance you’d usually travel by foot. D/P and S/P thieves also typically have very little access to Swiftness, further reducing their mobility, and S/D thieves have to sacrifice their evasion in order to maintain some kind of decent evasion.

Other than that, thieves are bad at keeping you from going where you want to go, but many other classes (mesmers included) can. Thieves also can’t access instant teleportation to an area (since Shadow Trap is probably the least reliable utility in the game); Mesmers can (and if the thief is somehow running over to decap your home more than once per 90s on average, you have a serious problem. Honestly, I’ve never seen this be the case even once before). I mean… At this point, I don’t even know what to say to you. Some of your comments (“Thiefs can e-a-s-i-l-y disengage a team fight”) are just wrong on a strategic basis (you could lose mid, for instance), or are just outright false in general (“in 95% scenarios, thiefs have the higher mobility and disengage tools.”) (given my comment about the 90s point-assault time). You’re going to have to give me more than just these random statistics and blatant ignorances of strategic fact in order to justify your position.

1. infiltrator strike+PW or pre cast PW+steal or infiltrator’s signet easy burst and unlike backstab dont bother about positioning to make huge burst So i think its time to increase initiative cost of PW, i play thief as main but i admit i feel cheap thief when using this PW and low risk high reward cheese builds aint fun to play just like most of heal signet condi bunker warrs including this PW so i play s/d shortbow acro or d/p trickery burst high risk but good reward!