Guild Wars 2

Over the last year we got visible rating and a solid division system (let’s not discuss matchmaking for now), automated tournaments, new maps, and a lot of randomness was removed from combat thanks to the sigil reworks. These were all great changes.

Yet nobody’s hyped. At all. That’s because the game is incredibly stale. We were playing conquest for 5 years. It doesn’t matter how many reworks the rating sytsem or matchmaking gets or how good AT rewards are, because it feels like playing the same thing over and over again for 5 years.

People burned out and the slow pace of balance patches doesn’t help at all. You want PvP to stand any chance at maintaining a population you have to give us diversity. Look at overwatch, just in 1 year Blizzard added 1v1, 3v3, a dozen brawl formats, completely customizable PvP rules in private rooms, and many more.

Now compare that to 5 years of conquest. I love conquest, but at this point even I don’t want to play this anymore.

Adding 2v2s was the best idea you ever had.. and then you immediately butchered it. Nobody’s going to play it in custom arenas. NOBODY. AT ALL.

Please just have at least two 2v2 or 3v3 tournaments a week using the AT format. It’d mean SO MUCH to the community. You could do it in off-season too to test the waters and keep people playing more.

Sure, add some new rules if you have to, like reducing healing effectiveness after a while or after 3 minutes activate a capture point at the middle or whatever.

You already have all the pieces, please, please do something with it.

yes pls also add 3v3 as well its more exciting.

this is another reason why I stopped playing pvp all together this year . when anet made it ok to do 2v2s and so forth . as well as the lack of skilled players in both ranked and none ranked pvp .

Yup, we need a 2v2 (or 3v3) game mode.

I’ve always thought 2v2s and 3v3s were way more fun to play than conquest, so I’d love to see a 2v2 gamemode

It wouldn’t work with the maps we have, the split it would cause in population, the major differences in build diversity that create hard counters, and would throw the ability to rank players off even further.

It doesn’t seem like you guys even thought this through. Also, the modes already exists in hotjoin. If it were as fun as you think it is, maybe those rooms wouldn’t be empty 24/7.

SneakyTouchy.6043:

It wouldn’t work with the maps we have

Anet added a 2v2 map, and they are in general easier to produce as these maps are much smaller and have no real objectives.

the split it would cause in population

Which is why I was suggesting the AT format rather than a queue, AND in off-season.

the major differences in build diversity that create hard counters

??

and would throw the ability to rank players off even further.

I’m not sure how? And again, AT not queue.

Also, the modes already exists in hotjoin. If it were as fun as you think it is, maybe those rooms wouldn’t be empty 24/7.

Nonexistent rewards for complete blowouts in an abandoned format, I wonder why this didn’t work out. /s

It can’t be deathmatch based, though. There are comps in this game that will never die to mere 2 people. If something like an Ele+Engie comp knows how to kite… how do you kill them?

Anything but this constant run to a circle dance in the circle and die in or around it and repeat. Circle dancing never had a chance to be competitive due to it being wayyyy too complex for the simple minded pugs everyone rages about.

This is a similar issue when working as a aerospace inspector, i have to explain in laymen terms to the engineer how his design doesn’t work because the simple minded won’t understand it. Similar concept here it needs to be simplified. So anet here you go.

Terms:

Pvp player : One who knows how to pvp in conq and 1v1 in general.

Pug: Random simple minded player “attempting” pvp.

Issue:

Pvp players have no issue understanding the concept of pvp may it be circle capping or holding their own 1v1. Pugs.. on the other hand require a pvp player to hold their hand and walk them through the map. Pugs require constant watch to make sure things like they remember to breathe, so when you make a map (even tho is seems simple) like circle dancing it overheats their brains.

Conclusion:

One bad random pug on your team when your enemy has 5 actual pvp players means you may as well just /sit at your base.

Solution :

TDM pvp where the ONLY thing the simple minded puggies have to worry about is kill what is in front of them minus their teammate(s) (which might still be asking much)

YuiRS.8129:

It can’t be deathmatch based, though. There are comps in this game that will never die to mere 2 people.

The simple answer is to balance around this so it does not happen. If A-net commits to this, it is possible to achieve.

I dont really think that their main focus needs to be 2v2 or 3v3 (id vote for 3v3 necause its more excitinng). They could just berf the synergy or ele nrrco in general that duo is quite strong.

This is one of the reasons I quit PvP….again….

I’m tired of playing the SAME THING for 5 years straight. I’m tired of circle-dancing, capturing points, it’s just not fun to play anymore. It’s not just stale at this point, it’s PUTRID. ATs are nice, I guess, but it’s still freakin conquest!

Bring in TDM to queue. Don’t even listen to the elitists about making PvP “competitive”, just make it fun to play for the community. These elitists should know that MMOs and competitive PvP do not mix.

Here’s an idea: You all know the Southsun Cove arena used for Crab Toss? Put THAT in for 2v2. Spacey, no obstacles, perfect for fighting. An actual arena. The 2v2 custom map with the stairs is disappointing. It’s not for fighting, it’s a corridor. There’s no space to move.

JTGuevara.9018:

An actual arena.

Yawn….

I agree to add 2:2 and 3:3 modes. But classes are not balaced for that. It will lead to some ranting that combination XY is overpowered. I main ele and i can imagine what happes if i pair with an engi … It leads to counter combinations as well.

Wolfric.9380:

I agree to add 2:2 and 3:3 modes. But classes are not balaced for that. It will lead to some ranting that combination XY is overpowered. I main ele and i can imagine what happes if i pair with an engi … It leads to counter combinations as well.

Try to make something better for rev than Shiro/Glint, you just can’t. People think there’d be a drastic change in builds but that’s not true. It’d have a slightly different meta and maybe 1-2 new builds, that’s really not the end of the world from a balance standpoint and we need that kind of shakeup.

Counters will always exist in every game ever. But if you hide the enemy team’s comp and don’t allow for profession changing once the Qpop is accepted then this is not that big of a deal.

And counters are needed or else everyone will just play the exact same comp.

To all fans of ranked 2v2

It never happens and never should happen IN THIS META.

You ask why?

Cause neco/ele combo exists and wins against any other duo…ow there is ele/rev out there too.

Fair 2v2 balance doesn’t exist so why you guys want to be farmed?

Maybe a 3:3 with maps build for it will work with current builds. It´s important that mobility plays a significant role otherwise many builds/classes will fall out.

I’ve been saying this for a long time. Focus on 3v3, conquest got old years ago.

Ben Phongluangtham.1065:

I mentioned this in the AMA, may as well repeat it here. For a multitude of reasons, balance being just one, we don’t have any plans on doing a 2v2 (or 3v3) queue.

We’ve been talking about doing special tournaments on occasion. 2v2 would be one option for a special tournament.

Then at least give us 8v8, or more likely 9v9 now

pft

it should be a 2v2 ranked queue & 5v5 ATs. see @Acandis’ enlightening post to see why, he’s a smart dude.

i will never understand why anet never employed a few high level players to give input on balance patches. that & splitting skills from the get go were such missed opportunities. game is not close to balanced right now, & build variety for conquest is terrible. 2v2 would have a whole new meta. it woukd be fresh & fun. not stale af like conquest meta.

I’m **** tired of conquest, we need more game modes on pvp.

witcher.3197:

the major differences in build diversity that create hard counters

??

Yes, this is one of the main reasons. You never get the opportunity going into a game knowing for certain whether or not a class hard counters yours based on damage output, condi pressure, CC spam or mobility. Builds have a degree of diversity that sometimes create hard counter scenarios. That’s when a newbie can destroy a veteran based on mechanical options that favor the newb.

In a 5v5, this can still occur, but players also have the option to back each other up or choose different battles. In a 2v2, this just isn’t available, so the result from introducing 2v2’s and 3v3’s would be an overall decrease in match quality and increase in matching time because the community would be split.

In the long run, meta builds would also be reduced, resulting in even less build diversity.

I’m glad that a game designer stepped in to back this up. It is not common that popular ideas presented by a community are good ideas. Most get so frustrated that they can’t think too far beyond the short-term outcome that would please them. Good ideas come from people that can display reason with logic and effectively connect cause and effect more than one step ahead.

With the same reasoning, going beyond 5v5 like a 6v6 or 7v7 creates additional problems as well. Points may remain contested for too long and classes that are soft yet mobile would become more obsolete. This is why they are not included in the WvW meta. They may be fun to roam around with and pick off stragglers, but they do little to help the blob progress and capture objectives.

Keeping the game restricted to 5v5 is pretty much essential to maintaining the health of PvP.

Ben Phongluangtham.1065:

We’ve been talking about doing special tournaments on occasion. 2v2 would be one option for a special tournament.

2v2 public queue pool open indefinitely during off-season is very much wanting :)

Ben Phongluangtham.1065:

I mentioned this in the AMA, may as well repeat it here. For a multitude of reasons, balance being just one, we don’t have any plans on doing a 2v2 (or 3v3) queue.

We’ve been talking about doing special tournaments on occasion. 2v2 would be one option for a special tournament.

The “balance” didn’t stop you guys from attempting to do stronghold. I mean it’s not like you have much of a pvp community left to lose. Just try it.

I am basically fine with 5:5. But more maps with diffrent mechanics where solo play has a larger impact. Basically Maps that don´t do all the same with slight modifications.
Old skyhammer (only cannon should have been changed) was good, niffel is very nice as is foefire with it´s smaller scale. Capricorn is OK it´s scale is also small with three nodes so not much diffrence but it has the bonus point. Colluseum? I thin´k this one is to much small scale, no need for it. Maps with five points, maps with teleporters and so on. Bring fun gameplay not maps that all have the same base. And yes diffrent layouts and mechanics prefer diffrent team composition and builds. Thats good …
And while i think stronghold is soso it is diffrent….

I would rather see 10 vs 10 and/or 7 vs 7.
Of course i don’t believe that “game is balanced around 5 vs 5”. It’s just a cheap excuse: PvP is not balanced at all, so please don’t lie to us.
In World of Warcraft you can play PvP: 2 vs 2 and 3 vs 3 Arenas, (unfortunately no more 5 vs 5) 10 vs 10, 15 vs 15 and 40 vs 40 Battlegrounds.
If the game is really balanced only around 5 vs 5 than you should just remove WvW when 50 people fight another 50 people. Or am i missing something?

Ben Phongluangtham.1065:

I mentioned this in the AMA, may as well repeat it here. For a multitude of reasons, balance being just one, we don’t have any plans on doing a 2v2 (or 3v3) queue.

We’ve been talking about doing special tournaments on occasion. 2v2 would be one option for a special tournament.

That’s fine, just bring back TDM, just don’t give us that crap shoot Courtyard map and implement TDM properly with rounds so you don’t have spawn camping. TDM is much easier for people to learn to play then proper rotations on a conquest map.

Ben Phongluangtham.1065:

I mentioned this in the AMA, may as well repeat it here. For a multitude of reasons, balance being just one, we don’t have any plans on doing a 2v2 (or 3v3) queue.

We’ve been talking about doing special tournaments on occasion. 2v2 would be one option for a special tournament.

First of all, thank you for responding. I can only guess what those reasons are:

Balance (confirmed)
While conquest is a 5v5 mode, fights rarely exceed 3v3 which is why I don’t think this’d make a big difference at all when it comes to balance. 2v2 might cause some trouble, but I think 3v3 is the sweetspot that should work.

Splitting the playerbase
True, this could be a problem. But I’ve been saying something from day one: if you try so desperately to not split the community on the long run you won’t have anything to split.

Operating both a conquest and arena (3v3?) que might be too taxing on the population, but throwing 3v3 ATs should not be an issue. An annihilation match would go for maybe 3 minutes at worst and the entire tournament could be over in an hour. Half the participants will drop out in minutes anyways, which means it wouldn’t drain the population away for long.

E-sport?
Wild guess, but if you guys still have plans for e-sports then you probably want it to be conquest. Actually, a 3v3 isn’t a bad choice either:

• Action goes on only at 1 place, not 3-4 like an average conquest match
  *Thanks to the lack of capture points the AoE spam becomes much more spread out so spectators would finally get to see something instead of one gigantic clusterkitten.
• Smaller teams fit the smaller population well, so we’d get to see more teams.

But first let’s make the game fun and enjoyable again instead of shooting for the stars.

Conquest dying out?
Without a 24/7 3v3 queue this obviously wouldn’t happen, so it’s irrelevant.

I’ve noticed something recently, even in upper platinum: some people just play for kills and cba to rotate. This is because they Q for PvP to do PvP, not to outrotate enemies and care about tactics. 3v3 ATs would let them satisfy such needs and who knows, maybe they’d start playing conquest for the conquest and 3v3 for pure PvP, improving match quality.

A queue’s probably not worth it at this point, you’re right. But regular 3v3 ATs? Can’t think of a single reason why that’d be a bad idea.

Ben Phongluangtham.1065:

I mentioned this in the AMA, may as well repeat it here. For a multitude of reasons, balance being just one, we don’t have any plans on doing a 2v2 (or 3v3) queue.

We’ve been talking about doing special tournaments on occasion. 2v2 would be one option for a special tournament.

I genuinely don’t get this.

Conquest might be a 5v5 mode, but there’s rarely full-blown 5v5 fights. 3v3s and 2v2s occur organically all the time in Conquest, and there’s never an instance where I’m in a match and feel like how many participants were in a fight affected the potency of a certain build.

WvW offers an extremely wide spectrum of engagements, from 1v1 to 60v60. Nevertheless, the mode survives just fine. Certain builds obviously function better in 1v1s than 10v10s, but that variety in flavor is what makes the mode refreshing and needs to be replicated in some way in PvP.

If you really want people dropping money on another expansion in the next six months, we need more than just Conquest for the next two years.

I would like to see 3v3 and 2v2 along side 5v5 conquest. We all know most would queue for non conquest modes. So why not give the people what they want to play. Instead of being content with sPvP continuous population loss.

conquest is killing pvp
do something about it

Be different. Listen to the community. Try 2 vs 2. Try 3 vs 3. The more game modes for ranked, the more competitive players.

Edit: Also, add more skills, traits, and weapons while your at it.

Anything that isn’t this godforsaken conquest has my support.

Next expanson is drawing near, you won’t get a better chance at kickstarting a new gamemode. True arena is what we need, 3v3 Annihilation in GW1 random arenas.

You can cling onto conquest and watch PvP die or you can try something new. Up to you.

It is mind blowing how the vast majority prefer anything else aside from conquest but anet refuses to listen to they costumers. It’s like going to subways and asking for a teriyaki chicken hero but they refuse to sell it to you and instead they give you a ham and cheese sandwich. That’s not how you keep a player base. Obviously the customer is going to find another store that sells them a teriyaki chicken hero.

Solzero.5380:

It is mind blowing how the vast majority prefer anything else aside from conquest but anet refuses to listen to they costumers. It’s like going to subways and asking for a teriyaki chicken hero but they refuse to sell it to you and instead they give you a ham and cheese sandwich. That’s not how you keep a player base. Obviously the customer is going to find another store that sells them a teriyaki chicken hero.

When you have Dev’s that have invested so much heart and soul into a failed map system that has no competitive value they will fight it. Yes conq has been the main issue of gw2 pvp since the start of gw2 there is no questioning that.

Anet made a broken map idea with still… a broken character. If any f2p player can run around as a teef and beat people that is sad. They make a map about covering distances then make only one class that can do it efficiently and while hidden. This idea they had doesn’t make a competitive map style.

How hard is it to see that dancing in between 3 circles is just too complex for the minds of some. Why not make it simple “just kill anything not on your team” and done. The winner who is over the bodies of the dead. No dancing no who has home far mid or anything. Just kill and stay alive.

Thinking about balance in concerns to 2v2 and 3v3, specifically people being too tanky to kill….

I have a weird idea, feel free to roast it….

Some sort of “exhaustion/attrition debuff”: when a character takes let’s say, and this could be done in terms of health pool percentages or what not, 30,000 damage and has not been downed, nor downed someone else (debatable) every 5k or maybe even less damage applied to them after this point, they have incoming damage increased by 1-2% against them (stacking). Sort of a small to large “screw you” to bunkers without invalidating them entirely. Sort of putting the onus on them or their teammates to finish a round in a reasonable time or they just start getting lit up. In a weird way, almost like super smash bros.

Very Rough numbers, no idea exactly what might lead to a fair or fun match across all classes/ combinations. But with how fun small gang roaming fights are in wvw, with some debuffs to deter survival cheese you could have some sweet matchups potentially.

Edit: This concept could also apply to reduced endurance regen, and blocks losing effectiveness seeing as how big active mitigation is. Like damage coming through for 50% off base after you block spam a certain amount of health on your shield and other skills.

A good idea!
Would be easier to find people for queuing 2v2 or 3v3 instead of 5v5 (especially for introvert people like me :p)

LOL

Here is why this is a terrible idea

Ben Phongluangtham.1065:

I mentioned this in the AMA, may as well repeat it here. For a multitude of reasons, balance being just one, we don’t have any plans on doing a 2v2 (or 3v3) queue.

We’ve been talking about doing special tournaments on occasion. 2v2 would be one option for a special tournament.

Could you name some of the other reasons?

If balance is one of the core issues why is nothing being done to work on it? If you know 2v2s and 3v3s are imbalanced and they do happen in Conquest, wouldn’t Conquest as a game type be healthier by virtue of better balance alone? That alone would at least keep people invested even if there is no intention of pushing the 2v2 (3v3) format.

runeblade.7514:

Here is why this is a terrible idea

That’s a argument? Hahaha trust me people have had worse games like when your pushing hard just to loose 500-100 lol. Conq is such a junk pvp style it’s actually sad.

Meanwhile, I’d kind of like to see them bring back the 3 way games they had in GW1 Hall of Heroes.

Either 3v3v3 or 4v4v4.

Having some more options basically, would be nice.

Ykfox.3825:

Meanwhile, I’d kind of like to see them bring back the 3 way games they had in GW1 Hall of Heroes.

Either 3v3v3 or 4v4v4.

Having some more options basically, would be nice.

3 way fighting like mini wvw would be fun. I mean HoH was the top tier pvp that anet could only hope to return to. If your team wasn’t good enough then a hardcore npc team would take you down so you wouldn’t go up the ranks.

I wish the gw2 devs would just finally move on to some competitive pvp and bring back TDM in full with new map and not just “kind of” do it with maps that will die in “Hotjoin”

Ben Phongluangtham.1065:

I mentioned this in the AMA, may as well repeat it here. For a multitude of reasons, balance being just one, we don’t have any plans on doing a 2v2 (or 3v3) queue.

We’ve been talking about doing special tournaments on occasion. 2v2 would be one option for a special tournament.

Here let me translate:

We realize that the community has been asking for this and a multitude of other things forever, but to put it simply we don’t feel like doing that so eff you. However here’s your meaningless new Mists map, some broken cheater filled auto tournaments, and some more very poorly done class balance. Enjoy the moldy bone we have thrown you PVPers and kitten.

There ya go.

Ben Phongluangtham.1065:

I mentioned this in the AMA, may as well repeat it here. For a multitude of reasons, balance being just one, we don’t have any plans on doing a 2v2 (or 3v3) queue.

We’ve been talking about doing special tournaments on occasion. 2v2 would be one option for a special tournament.

Stronghold hasn’t seen any support since beta, has severe balance issues, has one map – yet it is still in unranked. Unless the issue of including 2v2 queue checkbox next to Conquest and Stronghold in Unranked mode is technical limitations, I see no big reason not to give it a spin. OP is right about one thing – it will never be tested and played if it’s custom map only.

Due to possible match length, maybe up the daily requirement to 2 or 3 games for 2v2 and increase the warm-up timer before the match/add build templates so we can adjust the build to comp and enemy team.

Anet has to find a way to make pvp a competitive thing in gw2. Conq definitely isn’t the answer because well… 5 years later and it still hasn’t worked on their experiment lol.

TDM = Competitive hell even stronghold is more competitive due to not being restricted by dancing in circles or zerging.

Ziggityzog.7389:

Anet has to find a way to make pvp a competitive thing in gw2. Conq definitely isn’t the answer because well… 5 years later and it still hasn’t worked on their experiment lol.

TDM = Competitive hell even stronghold is more competitive due to not being restricted by dancing in circles or zerging.

NO. STOP IT. TDM kittened everything up. Anet gave it a chance with courtyard because half the population couldn’t differentiate between annihilation and TDM when they kept asking for it.

TDM was a failure even moreso than conquest. After the first fight it’s just the winning team farming the others for minutes. It’s not fun.

We need annihilation. Single round PvP. Team wipe = win. We do NOT need TDM.

Forum bug coz that’s still a thing..

NotASmurf.1725:

Ziggityzog.7389:

Anet has to find a way to make pvp a competitive thing in gw2. Conq definitely isn’t the answer because well… 5 years later and it still hasn’t worked on their experiment lol.

TDM = Competitive hell even stronghold is more competitive due to not being restricted by dancing in circles or zerging.

NO. STOP IT. TDM kittened everything up. Anet gave it a chance with courtyard because half the population couldn’t differentiate between annihilation and TDM when they kept asking for it.

TDM was a failure even moreso than conquest. After the first fight it’s just the winning team farming the others for minutes. It’s not fun.

We need annihilation. Single round PvP. Team wipe = win. We do NOT need TDM.

I don’t mind a one life per map idea just may be kiind of short. Hell someone tossed out a idea for a tdm 3v3v3 map that would even be fun if it was single life haha. Anything but this conq non sense

Ziggityzog.7389:

NotASmurf.1725:

Ziggityzog.7389:

Anet has to find a way to make pvp a competitive thing in gw2. Conq definitely isn’t the answer because well… 5 years later and it still hasn’t worked on their experiment lol.

TDM = Competitive hell even stronghold is more competitive due to not being restricted by dancing in circles or zerging.

NO. STOP IT. TDM kittened everything up. Anet gave it a chance with courtyard because half the population couldn’t differentiate between annihilation and TDM when they kept asking for it.

TDM was a failure even moreso than conquest. After the first fight it’s just the winning team farming the others for minutes. It’s not fun.

We need annihilation. Single round PvP. Team wipe = win. We do NOT need TDM.

I don’t mind a one life per map idea just may be kiind of short. Hell someone tossed out a idea for a tdm 3v3v3 map that would even be fun if it was single life haha. Anything but this conq non sense

Surprised you remembered that. It was way back in December 25th 2014.