Please learn from your mistakes, A-net

Please learn from your mistakes, A-net

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Posted by: Ostricheggs.3742

Ostricheggs.3742

Dear A-net,
I have played your game since release and have witnessed first hand as its history unfolds itself upon us, your customers. I’ve seen it all: smoke bomb nerfs, triple cantrip eles, HGH, illusion of life, empathic bond clearing all condis, heartseeker hitting for 16k, time warp, BM rangers, hambows, dhuumfire, spirit rangers, minion mancers… The list of bullkitten goes on and on.

Now I’m not here to rag on it, I’m here to do just the opposite. I believe that there will always be overpowered things in this game no matter what changes are made. Even in the best of metas people still complained about things that, in retrospect, weren’t nearly as broken as what they thought. It’s the simple nature of the playerbase of any game; if there’s something that makes them lose they’ll QQ about it. It seems like you understood this already, dear a-net, because you’ve adopted a style of balance that relies on patience and the ‘slow and steady’ approach to let things smooth out before you make any changes.

That said, I’m here to warn you that your style of balancing has choked this game out from day one; I’ve seen dozens of my friends quit this game out of frustration because of it. It’s the same song and dance every balance patch: something gets broke, people begin to realize and excessively play that which is broke, the broken thing doesn’t get fixed until too late to stop the hemorrhage of players (sometimes multiple balance patches later). It’s getting old awfully quick to all of us and is extremely damaging to our morale. A lack of activity and inane secrecy over balance issues combine to create a not-so-good reputation for you, a-net.

It’s demoralizing to see balance take the back-burner when it’s on the forefront of every PvPer’s mind. Let me try to use your favorite analogy; You don’t want to play whack-a-mole with balance, but when there is a mole, every player out there sees it and exclaims “Yo a-net, there’s a mole over here! Whack it!”. All the while you sit there and wonder if it’s actually a mole or a mole in disguise. How can you be sure it’s not an overreaction by your players? While you’re pondering, the mole has transformed into mole-zilla and is rampaging through your PvP smashing the kitten out of everything fun and balanced for months on end. When you finally get off your butts and whack that mole it isn’t to much celebration, but rather a collective sigh of relief is heard throughout the mists while we all wonder, “what the hell took so long?”.

This is a major issue that will remain a plague on your game’s PvP until you make major changes to the speed of balance. History has a funny way of repeating itself, and I’ll be kitten ed if this game isn’t the same way. Given that we have a MAJOR balance patch coming in half a month it’s inevitable that a mole is going to rear it’s ugly head once more. I simply ask that you learn from your repeated mistakes and whack it before your game suffers once more.

I can’t offer many solutions because the nature of the problem lies in your company itself, of which I have no knowledge of its organization or operation. All I can offer is lofty suggestions that might not be possible in reality. Minor tweaks to balance every living world release would be optimal. My only hope is that something will change, otherwise this game will never be as good as I know it can be.

Much love, Ostrich Eggs

twitch.tv/ostricheggs MOTM/TOL 2/TOG NA/WTS Beijing winner. Message me for PvP Coaching
@$20 an hour! It’s worth it!

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Posted by: zone.1073

zone.1073

It’s like Neo in the Matrix. Every time the machines release a new version of the Matrix, a Neo-like anomaly is always there, ready to ruin everything. It’s inevitable.

I feel like the devs are taking the correct approach to balance now, though. Community forum feedback is actually being taken seriously, and digested by community devs like Allie and Grouch, and then given to the game devs for interpretation and execution of changes.

The only thing missing is a public test realm, instead of ArenaNet relying on just their handful of 10 internal testers (who are not competitive players…they are same group of people used to test everything: PvE, WvW, and PvP). A public test realm would be an amazing addition to the game, because it would allow devs to “see things out” first before releasing changes to live servers and affect leaderboards, rating, the competitive environment, etc. If ArenaNet wants to foster a growing competitive PvP community, then they must be sensitive to the competitive scene instead of using the live servers as guinea pigs in an experiment.

(edited by zone.1073)

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Posted by: isolatedchimp.2510

isolatedchimp.2510

I agree. If you’re going to use the shaving approach then do it more often. It’s freaking sad and infuriating that I took a year break from the game and there’s been maybe 3 balance patches and only 2 maps added since I took my break. If this continues on, my next break will probably be a permanent one.

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Posted by: Ostricheggs.3742

Ostricheggs.3742

It’s like Neo in the Matrix. Every time the machines release a new version of the Matrix, a Neo-like anomaly is always there, ready to ruin everything. It’s inevitable.

I feel like the devs are taking the correct approach to balance now, though. Community forum feedback is actually being taken seriously, and digested by community devs like Allie and Grouch, and then given to the game devs for interpretation and execution of changes.

The only thing missing is a public test realm, instead of ArenaNet relying on just their handful of 10 internal testers (who are not competitive players…they are same group of people used to test everything: PvE, WvW, and PvP). A public test realm would be an amazing addition to the game, because it would allow devs to “see things out” first before releasing changes to live and affect leaderboards, rating, the competitive environment, etc.

The balance changes that are coming are good, but they’re 7 months too late.

twitch.tv/ostricheggs MOTM/TOL 2/TOG NA/WTS Beijing winner. Message me for PvP Coaching
@$20 an hour! It’s worth it!

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Posted by: muscarine.5136

muscarine.5136

Well put

I’m happy with the next balance patch
But on the other hand, i can’t help but wonder “what will be (or will stay) broken this time for another 5 monthes”.

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Posted by: Phaeton.9582

Phaeton.9582

Made a similar forum post recently that Evan was kind enough to comment on OE

FYI


Phaatonn, London UK

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Posted by: Teutos.8620

Teutos.8620

To summarize your whole post: “balance is subjectively, please be careful with the balancing”, and you are right with that, but taking a look at the past, I think ArenaNet has learned a lot from their past, and looking forward to the next patch release, there is nothing I can currently complain about.

We’ll come back after the feature release launch, maybe then I’ll have to revise my statement, but currently it’s not looking that way

EU – Multiple times #1 SoloQ pre Dec 2014 (pure MMR based ladder)
Primoridal (S1) & Exalted (S2) & Illustrious (S3) Legend

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Posted by: Serdoc.7261

Serdoc.7261

Look at games that have successful PvP, like League of Legends (which I personally can’t stand, but millions play it).

Look at how often they patch, and how often those patches contain balance changes:
V4.2 Feb-10-2014 , has balance changes
V4.1 Jan-15-2014 , has balance changes
V3.15 Dec-13-2013 , has balance changes
V3.14 Nov-21-2013 , has balance changes
V3.13 Oct-29-2013 , has balance changes
V3.12 Oct-1-2013 , has balance changes

Now compare that to GW 2 patch history, and how balance patches can sometimes be 3+ months apart! As OEggs said, it is detrimental to the players.

As a computer programmer with 8+ years experience, IMO it is a very lazy choice to balance this slowly, an easy out for the programmers & balance team

I’m not sure, can you, umm…. do that again? ROM – 2015
#allisvain

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Posted by: Liewec.2896

Liewec.2896

I agree. If you’re going to use the shaving approach then do it more often. It’s freaking sad and infuriating that I took a year break from the game and there’s been maybe 3 balance patches

what this guy said^
things like hambow have been around for 6 months, and if i remember right they only had one single patch in which they were slightly nerfed.
this is a RIDICULOUS approach to balance, there should be big sweeping changes,
mix up the meta and do it often, keep things fresh.
the current cess pool has been allowed to settle for far to long, it wreaks with all of the vile builds that have festered ontop of the surface.
decap drones, PW scrubs and hambow clones,
nerf them to hell and let more interesting builds rise.

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Posted by: Exedore.6320

Exedore.6320

Agree with OEggs. We can wait 4 months for some minor tweaks, but the major issues need to be sorted out faster.

Kirrena Rosenkreutz

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Posted by: style.6173

style.6173

I’ll summarize very quickly why ANET has an issue. It is all because of their balance methodology. It basically goes like this:

1. ANET sees something in the meta that is not strong enough or is too strong.
2. They make a change to the skills in question.
3. Turns out the change was too much or too little

This is where it gets interesting. Logically, you’d think the next step would be to modify the changes they just made. Instead ANET does the following:
4. Change a whole series of other skills from other professions in order to compensate for the original mistake.

The game can never see balance with that methodology. That’s why it takes so long to fix obviously broken specs.

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Posted by: buckeyecro.9614

buckeyecro.9614

This is why Arena Net must implement a Public Testing Realm so that they can get feedback from its player base with a more Representative Sample of their entire player population. Most of the critical balance issues and issues with the content and new features would likely be quashed before they hit the live servers.

I still frequent these forums and log in to the game every once in a while because I am optimistic that our collective feedback could still help make this great game what it could become before its too late. I’m glad that this game has evolved the MMORPG genre and created systems that hopefully future MMO’s will utilize at their cores. I still recommend this game to friends because it’s an evolved MMO.

Sanctum of Rall NA Engineer Commander

Guild Wars 2 needs a Public Beta Environment

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Posted by: Nemiros.3590

Nemiros.3590

There’s not many old players left in the pvp community of this game, and Oeggs is one of the very few that remain. He knows pretty much all the ins and outs of this game, and really cares about it, so please listen to him. He is basically saying what the whole pvp community has been saying for so long, and showing how desperate we get… its like praying to a god that isn’t there when we beg for balance patches.

Its not about hiring him, or any of the higher ranked old players. Just listen to us, as a colective. We spend most of the day “testing” your game for free, why listen to a test team that probably spends its time testing all the living story events, and rarely jump into pvp if you have top tier pvp testers right here?

I guess im also quite desperate to see this game get better…

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Posted by: NitroApe.9104

NitroApe.9104

Couldn’t agree more

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Posted by: leungctm.1362

leungctm.1362

too little people work in the pvp team in A-net.

Top 50 NA Tpvp Guardian (Rizzylard)
Best Mercenary Guardian you can find to fill your last slot.
Keep Calm and PVP Hard.

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Posted by: kirito.4138

kirito.4138

but everything is fine, the $$$ comes from PVE’ers

http://www.twitch.tv/kirito4138
The only exclusive skyhammer stream

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Posted by: DiogoSilva.7089

DiogoSilva.7089

  1. The shaving balance philosophy works best in faster balance cycles. I think Anet should go back to the 2-weekly cycle that they started the game with, or at the very least, the monthly cycle they later moved to.
  2. One of the main concerns that Anet’s designers raised about their old balance pacing, is that it didn’t always have enough impact in the meta. Well, that’s true, but that comes with the nature of their shaving philosophy: you have to keep shaving, and shaving, until you hit the spot and it starts having an impact. That’s why the 2-weekly cycle is so important for this approach: when a patch is not enough by itself, the following patch is just around the corner to take thigns a bit further, and so on.
  3. Big balancing patches (new skills, redesigned skills/ traits, buffs to underpowered stuff, attempts to bring new playstyles into the meta) every few months are still important to exist, especially because they demand more testing, and because they build up more excitement from the playerbase.
  4. Thus, I propose that Anet should split shaving balance patches from big balance patches. They should co-exist together instead of coming all into a single package. Small shaving balance passes should take place every two weeks (or every month), and sweeping balance and redesign changes every quarter of an year or so.

(edited by DiogoSilva.7089)

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Posted by: Phantom Master.9582

Phantom Master.9582

+1 I hope this doesn’t get burried like older posts

R80 Mesmer- Inquisitor Amena
Eternity~!

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Posted by: MonMalthias.4763

MonMalthias.4763

  1. The shaving balance philosophy works best in faster balance cycles. I think Anet should go back to the 2-weekly cycle that they started the game with, or at the very least, the monthly cycle they later moved to.
  2. One of the main concerns that Anet’s designers raised about their old balance pacing, is that it didn’t always have enough impact in the meta. Well, that’s true, but that comes with the nature of their shaving philosophy: you have to keep shaving, and shaving, until you hit the spot and it starts having an impact. That’s why the 2-weekly cycle is so important for this approach: when a patch is not enough by itself, the following patch is just around the corner to take thigns a bit further, and so on.
  3. Big balancing patches (new skills, redesigned skills/ traits, buffs to underpowered stuff, attempts to bring new playstyles into the meta) every few months are still important to exist, especially because they demand more testing, and because they build up more excitement from the playerbase.
  4. Thus, I propose that Anet should split shaving balance patches from big balance patches. They should co-exist together instead of coming all into a single package. Small shaving balance passes should take place every two weeks (or every month), and sweeping balance and redesign changes every quarter of an year or so.

Pretty much what DiogoSilva said. Balance “shaves” should be decoupled from big patches as their effect on the meta will be lost in the wake of huge changes. Yes, new content and features are always welcomed, but to delay essential bugfixes and emergent balance issues in the wake of feature patches frustrates players and diminishes goodwill.

The most important patch and its timing is not this patch on April 15th. It is what comes after, and when. Will it be several months before new apex predators are shaved? Or will the lessons of Dhuumfire be learnt and Arenanet issues changes instead of waiting for the “meta to settle”? Frequent balance changes keep the meta constantly in flux and fresh; whilst “waiting for the meta to settle” has brought little to the game bar entrenchment of abusive builds.

Iva Malthias – 80 Engineer
Marellune Malthias – 80 Elementalist
Devil’s Dominion [DD] – Yak’s Bend

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Posted by: DanyK.3842

DanyK.3842

No game can ever be balanced, but having a new OP build every 2 weeks is way more fun than playing against the same cheese for a year. This is what successful games do and this is what GW2 will never have. None of the devs played top tier competitive games or if they have they surely did not understand what made them successful.
Who am I trying to fool? GW2 is successful. PvP just does not fit in with the rest as it brings too little money and so it is a “low priority at the moment”.

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