Guild Wars 2

Skills, traits, equipments(Runes/sigil/Amulets) should never have unlocks in sPvP. It does nothing to teach players anything you intended and all it does is make sPvP much more annoying.

Already there is a ton of traits and skills. Putting unlockables on a small few won’t do a thing to make this game easier to understand. If it must happen, you have to put unlocks on every single trait and skills to teach newer players. But that will kill the game already more than it should have to. This is like teaching a child Algebra, Geometry, Calculus all at the same time before you can teach them Addition and subtraction. It is ineffective in teaching newer players and more effective in hurting sPvP.

So stop with the unlockables. Remove the unlockables and focus more on more important sPvP stuff.

Agreed. When I heard that all of the traits and skills will have to be unlocked to use them in PvP, I couldn’t help but look at all the superficial grinding that was injected into the Chinese release of this game.

Given that the two skills they added cost 25 skill points each, I have no doubt in my mind that all of the PvP traits will cost ludicrous amounts of money. This was a grind that never existed before, and never needed to exist, but now they’re adding it.

Why?

Adding roadblocks to PvP doesn’t help ease players into it. The best way to ease players into PvP is to let them try out anything they want, which they can already do. If a player is so slow that they can’t figure out how skills work by testing them on the golems, then said player is too slow to play PvP without suffering a massive heart attack and dying in front of their computer.

They. Don’t. Care. About. PvP. Only. Players.

/thread

jmatb.6307:

They. Don’t. Care. About. PvP. Only. Players.

/thread

This issue isn’t not about caring about PvP. It is more like that this is actively trying to destroy PvP.

Justin ODell.9517:

we are heading in a direction you don’t agree with

well at least there’s one thing we can agree on

Justin ODell.9517:

Also, this system is designed for horizontal progression. Unlocking traits, or what have you, won’t (at least shouldn’t, barring any balance issues) make you more powerful, they simply give you a wider range of builds and allow you to better tune your character to your play style. Many, many successful games ease players into options, and, in my opinion, trait unlocking isn’t any different.

So why not make it account bound?

(at least shouldn’t, barring any balance issues)

You know perfectly well that this game’s balance is very bumpy to put it mildly, and at the current pace with a balance update every 4-5 months it will never approach a state where the scenario you just described wouldn’t go into effect.

Justin ODell.9517:

As Roy mentioned in another thread, all the current traits will remain unlocked, even for new players. It is only new traits that need to be unlocked, and you will not have to PvE to obtain them.

Then why make a distinction? If PvP can happily go along with players getting 12/13 traits per line, why add an extra layer of frustration and difficulty instead of giving them 13/13 traits per line? It’s obviously nothing to do with easing new players in.

Horizontal progression is a nice concept… but it’s one that I’ve never seen mentioned on the PvP forums, only the PvE ones. If you want to get more players in to PvP, somehow I don’t think keeping back build options is the way to go about it.

So Justin just confirmed that sPvP will be vertical progression. You need to unlock abilities. I’m sorry, but unlocking new traits = vertical progression to me.

Let me guess. You need skill points? You’re better off running queensdale champ train to unlock the abilities than sPvP… just like it is with the new heal skills.

And people wonder why this game doesn’t ascend to esports status.

Justin ODell.9517:

Come on guys, lets be more productive here. Saying we don’t care isn’t just wrong, it shuts down and discourages dialog between developers and players.

Don’t get me wrong, you can certainly express your opinions and frustrations, but just because we are heading in a direction you personally don’t agree with doesn’t mean we don’t care or that we are ignoring you.

Now lets get this thread back on track.

As Roy mentioned in another thread, all the current traits will remain unlocked in PvP, even for new players. It is only new traits that need to be unlocked, and you will not have to PvE to obtain them.

Also, this system is designed for horizontal progression. Unlocking traits, or what have you, won’t (at least shouldn’t, barring any balance issues) make you more powerful, they simply give you a wider range of builds and allow you to better tune your character to your play style. Many, many successful games ease players into options, and, in my opinion, trait unlocking isn’t any different.

I understand some of you are worried that we’re just adding stuff and ignoring existing problems. I can assure you, as I sit within earshot of the Skills and Combat team, that they are very aware of this and have no plans to ignore existing issues.

Is there at least a way to obtain those traits without spending money in PvP?
For instance, back in GW1, you were able to unlock skills with factions, whose main purpose was that.

It would be great to allow players in the new reward system to be able to unlock those traits without paying gold, which can be spent in a lot of other ways (and trait isn’t exactly the way I want to spend golds on).

It could be, for instance, by paying tournament win tokens to a vendor?

Justin ODell.9517:

Olvendred.3027:

Then why make a distinction? If PvP can happily go along with players getting 12/13 traits per line, why add an extra layer of frustration and difficulty instead of giving them 13/13 traits per line? It’s obviously nothing to do with easing new players in.

If it were only an additional trait, you’d more of a have a point, but we’re introducing this system with the future in mind. I can’t speak for the Skills and Combat teams long turn plans, but I know I would be disappointed if we stopped with just these new traits.

Olvendred.3027:

Horizontal progression is a nice concept… but it’s one that I’ve never seen mentioned on the PvP forums, only the PvE ones. If you want to get more players in to PvP, somehow I don’t think keeping back build options is the way to go about it.

Horizontal progression is very common, even in PvP games. Personally, I think one of the reason’s PvP rewards seem somewhat hollow is that we have no real progression beyond looks. I think you would be hard pressed (outside one-off games like most FPS and RTSs) to find a successful game without progression. As a PvP player, I love this change (disclaimer: I had no design input) and can’t wait for the 15th.

Ideally someone should’ve pointed out that the horizontal progression can happen exclusively through PvP play.

PvP gives you coin. These new trait books can be purchased in the mists via coin.

Justin ODell.9517:

Also, this system is designed for horizontal progression. Unlocking traits, or what have you, won’t (at least shouldn’t, barring any balance issues) make you more powerful, they simply give you a wider range of builds and allow you to better tune your character to your play style. Many, many successful games ease players into options, and, in my opinion, trait unlocking isn’t any different.

Why does PvP need these kind of horizontal progression mechanics at all? What value do they add to the PvP experience? How is the implementation of this beneficial to PvP players?

I feel what we, as players, are trying to communicate is not that we oppose the addition of new features, skills, or traits, or the addition of new ways for the game to offer some kind of measurable progress, but rather, that this is not an agreeable way to go about doing it. Freedom was supposed to be at the core of Guild Wars 2 PvP. Players were supposed to start on equal footing. This game is supposed to be different from other MMOs by not forcing PvP players to unlock things needed to play.

All we see now is Arenanet turning back on its word and slowly adding back the elements everyone wanted to keep out. Locked skills, locked traits, “progression” tied to gameplay instead of just cosmetics. Hopefully you can understand why we are disappointed and frustrated.

I fully understand that part of what the developers are trying to do right now is introduce these horizontal progression mechanics throughout the game. It’s additional content, it adds additional experiences for players, and it definitely has a place – in PvE. However, while there are many things that PvP needs, this is not one of them. Ranks and rewards are the progression mechanics for PvP. Player skill and leaderboards are progression for PvP. Locking new skills and traits away under the guise of “easing players into options”? It’s harmful to what PvP is supposed to be, and boldly strides in opposition to what players expect.

Please reconsider the approach being taken towards PvP. The core PvP community wants Arenanet to deliver a game about skill, not a game about PvE progression mechanics shoe-horned into a PvP game after a year and a half.

Justin ODell.9517:

Many, many successful games ease players into options, and, in my opinion, trait unlocking isn’t any different.

Yes, many games ‘ease players into it’ by releasing abilities to them a few at a time, so that they get to learn the abilities in manageable chunks rather than being thrown in over their head. And this works pretty well for RPGs and many other games.

But that is not what is going to happen with unlocked skills in PvP. What happens is that people want to use the new abilities in the new build that they want to try out. Only now the original design philosophy that ANet stated of jump right in and play is gone. Before you can make the build that you want for PvP you have to grind the character up just so you can start playing. You now have a level of unfair competition, where no matter your skill you can’t start really playing until you get your unlocks done.

GW2’s attempts to be an eSport have been somewhat disappointing from the start. Lacking features, a single game mode, and several other things have kept it from gaining more than a small, diehard PvP following. The state of things has improved quite a lot since release. This decision, however, makes it an absolute joke in that regard.

My understanding of PvP is that their were never meant to be barriers.

One of the selling points at release was that you could get into PvP immediately and compete. You didn’t have to level up, get the right gear, unlock things etc.

I should have known something was up when the 25sp were needed to unlock skills but didn’t think more of it at the time, but now….

I guess I just don’t understand. Is it trying to get PvE into PvP or PvP into PvE why are you moving towards creating barriers into PvP. I don’t understand why there is now this need to make people unlock things when that was never the case.

Nineaxis.1826:

All we see now is Arenanet turning back on its word and slowly adding back the elements everyone wanted to keep out.

I just wanted to add this, because it’s pretty much my take on it. In fact I pretty much agree with most of Nineaxis post.

Shockwave.1230:

Justin ODell.9517:

Olvendred.3027:

Then why make a distinction? If PvP can happily go along with players getting 12/13 traits per line, why add an extra layer of frustration and difficulty instead of giving them 13/13 traits per line? It’s obviously nothing to do with easing new players in.

If it were only an additional trait, you’d more of a have a point, but we’re introducing this system with the future in mind. I can’t speak for the Skills and Combat teams long turn plans, but I know I would be disappointed if we stopped with just these new traits.

Olvendred.3027:

Horizontal progression is a nice concept… but it’s one that I’ve never seen mentioned on the PvP forums, only the PvE ones. If you want to get more players in to PvP, somehow I don’t think keeping back build options is the way to go about it.

Horizontal progression is very common, even in PvP games. Personally, I think one of the reason’s PvP rewards seem somewhat hollow is that we have no real progression beyond looks. I think you would be hard pressed (outside one-off games like most FPS and RTSs) to find a successful game without progression. As a PvP player, I love this change (disclaimer: I had no design input) and can’t wait for the 15th.

Ideally someone should’ve pointed out that the horizontal progression can happen exclusively through PvP play.

PvP gives you coin. These new trait books can be purchased in the mists via coin.

PvP gives us a tiny bit of coin. No matter how much you play pvp, you won’t be able to make as much as your average pveer. What’s the point in implementing “horizontal” progression when pveers can unlock the new traits multiple times faster than pvpers?

Justin ODell.9517:

Xista.7391:

So Justin just confirmed that sPvP will be vertical progression. You need to unlock abilities. I’m sorry, but unlocking new traits = vertical progression to me.

I have to disagree. If it meant more skills available to you at one time while you are playing, then yes it would be vertical, but that just isn’t the case. You get more trait choices, not more traits applied to your character.

I get what you’re saying. I really do.

But lets say I wanted to play my friend’s spec, because it’s really good. But I can’t, because I don’t have certain traits unlocked. That to me feels really bad. I think EVERYTHING in sPvP regarding skills/traits should be unlocked to everyone. Everyone should be equal in PvP.

That was one of the major selling points of PvP to me. Everything was unlocked when you entered the mists. I’m willing to grind 100s of hours towards a new rank, but it just feels like every other MMO when you have to grind to get new spells/abilities/traits… etc.

the new traits once unlocked, will be unlocked for the account, not the character.

why the ruckus?

There should be a serious Gold reward for PvP for the winners, and jack for the losers. Than, you would have people PvPing a lot, and those with higher skill would be signifigantly rewarded.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

the new traits once unlocked, will be unlocked for the account, not the character.

why the ruckus?

From a PvP perspective that might be true (confirmation required), but newly created characters in PvE won’t have thier traits unlocked from what I’ve gathered.

many of us do not leave the mists. I play 95% of my guild wars time in the mists. I do not want to go for hours and hours into the pve to unlock a trait. The pve guys do not have to go to pvp for unlock something. Why do I have to go to pve to unlock my traits?

sPvP feels more and more like a second born child.

Justin ODell.9517:

Nineaxis.1826:

snip.

Please do not presume to speak for all players. As a PvP player, I disagree with you, and I know others that do as well.

If you want to turns this into a numbers game, please do keep in mind that the vast majority of PvP players play PvE and WvW as well. We definitely want to make the game fun and enjoyable for PvP-only players as well, but we need to keep a broader context when designing systems.

No one on the entire forums agree with you. Does that not say enough?

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

why the ruckus?

What I observe as the ‘creep’ that’s coming into PvP. I didn’t pay it much mind when the new heal skills for 25 sp came in, tbh I kind laughed and thought it was a little silly but now I’m a little concerned.

Justin ODell.9517:

Rubik.7192:

PvP gives us a tiny bit of coin. No matter how much you play pvp, you won’t be able to make as much as your average pveer. What’s the point in implementing “horizontal” progression when pveers can unlock the new traits multiple times faster than pvpers?

That is a valid concern, one worthy of its own thread. I should mention that this is only part of the rewards we have planned. We should have a blog post about that coming out soon™, but I’m not sure where it is in the schedule.

Did the company change their moto from “When it’s done™” to “coming out soon™”

Justin ODell.9517:

Nineaxis.1826:

snip.

Please do not presume to speak for all players. As a PvP player, I disagree with you, and I know others that do as well.

well he’s speaking for me as well. gw2 doesnt exactly have a large enough pvp following for you to consider feedback beyond of what’s on the forums. this is basically all you’ve got left, a few more people who care. but not for long.

regardless, all this “unlock” business and “easing people into the game” is basically a way of stringing us along. it makes sense when the game is released but gw2 has been out for a year and a half. unlocking features does not make for a fun game. the gameplay (in addition to variety/customization) is what keeps people addicted to the most popular pvp games.

because you’ve failed to deliver balance and build variety, why cant we get this for free and instantly when the new features are released?

Justin ODell.9517:

Unlocking traits, or what have you, won’t (at least shouldn’t, barring any balance issues) make you more powerful, they simply give you a wider range of builds and allow you to better tune your character to your play style.

No. If you have more options than your opponent, then you are potentially more powerful because at worst you can have the same build as him.

Plus, “barring any balance issues” is actually a big deal. You can bet these will cause balance issues (unless they’re intentionally bad like the new healing skills).

In any case, making them character bound destroys a lot of the freedom PvP players have with creating and destroying characters. Did you all not learn anything from the (ongoing) WXP character-bound debacle?

This honestly looks like a money grab: PvP players will now be more reluctant to delete characters and thus have more chance to buy character slots.

Justin ODell.9517:

Nineaxis.1826:

snip.

Please do not presume to speak for all players. As a PvP player, I disagree with you, and I know others that do as well.

If you want to turns this into a numbers game, please do keep in mind that the vast majority of PvP players play PvE and WvW as well. We definitely want to make the game fun and enjoyable for PvP-only players as well, but we need to keep a broader context when designing systems.

aye, i am one of the players who play all 3: PvE, sPvP and WvW.

justin, could you confirm with us, that the newly unlocked traits would be account bound, once unlocked? because this is how it works for guild wars 1, once unlocked, is account wide. i expect the same in guild wars 2.

Justin ODell.9517:

Nineaxis.1826:

snip.

Please do not presume to speak for all players. As a PvP player, I disagree with you, and I know others that do as well.

If you want to turns this into a numbers game, please do keep in mind that the vast majority of PvP players play PvE and WvW as well. We definitely want to make the game fun and enjoyable for PvP-only players as well, but we need to keep a broader context when designing systems.

Not to be rude but the forums have been overwhelmingly negative about your plans for pvp unlocks.

I have to disagree. If it meant more skills available to you at one time while you are playing, then yes it would be vertical, but that just isn’t the case. You get more trait choices, not more traits applied to your character.

But that’s under the assumption that all traits are created equal, which we all know they’re not. How does limiting build choices promote anything but vertical progression? There’s definitely going to be a trait that will be stronger than others and if it’s locked behind a gate, that’s a power gap for players with out it.

I just don’t understand what you hope to accomplish with this? How does this make the game any better? I guess it adds a short amount of longevity getting your player base to unlock things but it completely contradicts this game’s philosophy of being able to step into pvp and being on an even playing field.

What’s next? Necklace unlocks? Runes? Sigils? How long until there’s a huge gap between starting out and veteran players?

You really think if a new player is able to select from a pool of traits he is fine but if he gets 1 new trait per line he is lost? Come on.

Many new player will see builds on the internet, will try it and are not able to. Or are lost because the need a trait to counter other builds.

Justin ODell.9517:

This exact scenario is on our radar, and we definitely want to make it possible. Hopefully you’ll get a better idea of what we have in mind when we talk about the new rewards system.

Would it be possible to acquire traits as rewards from PvP rather than invest gold for unlocking them? Perhaps something similiar to the scrolls of knowledge but for individual traits instead?

It’s only 1 new trait at each trait line. And it’s only grandmaster. I can’t see why people are making such a big deal out of this. I’m guessing they will be easy to unlock anyway.

Though problem that I see here is consistency. New players will think those new traits are way stronger because they are initially locked. That inconsistency might hurt them and they might end up playing weaker builds just because they will believe those traits are stronger.

In all honesty, i dont understand where all this drama is coming from. And as you can see in my posting history i usually am the sceptical drama queen that complains about everything (esp skyhammer).

You dont have to unlock all 40 new traits right away. So what that you have to unlock 2 or 3 traits that you might need for your main class? And untill that moment you can keep using the traits that you use now….which are probably on par with the new stuff anyway.

Justin ODell.9517:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

justin, could you confirm with us, that the newly unlocked traits would be account bound, once unlocked? because this is how it works for guild wars 1, once unlocked, is account wide. i expect the same in guild wars 2.

I don’t know, but I’ll bug Josh and Allie about it and see if they can get it answered on Ready Up tomorrow.

oooo okies!
thanks justin for the reply!

i’ll wait for more info after the ready up session then.

Actually, GW1 did it great with skill unlocks. It sure was rewarding and not grindy at all.
But in the case of GW1, we are talking of hundreds and hundreds of skills (1319 skills to be precise), which took time to unlock and/or cap, without it crippling the build diversity. For GW2, we are talking about only few new skills/traits (atm 1 skill and 5 traits) per profession, which is just not enough to be a consistent progression, and in the case of traits it limits the already limited build diversity.

Count me as someone who isn’t against the traits being initially locked. I’m not exactly for it, but because it’s horizontal progression I just can’t muster any righteous ire against it.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

because this is how it works for guild wars 1, once unlocked, is account wide. i expect the same in guild wars 2.

Someone’s in for a ‘surprise’.

Justin ODell.9517:

Shockwave.1230:

Did the company change their moto from “When it’s done™” to “coming out soon™”

I think it happened sometime after release. :P

So true. (And maybe unavoidable in software development.)

Could you (maybe) please disclose the dates when posts discussing further pvp aspects will come up in the current cycle of blog posts? This will help the short-tempered part of the community to relax a bit until they can see the full picture.

~MRA

Justin ODell.9517:

Lupanic.6502:

You really think if a new player is able to select from a pool of traits he is fine but if he gets 1 new trait per line he is lost? Come on.

Again, this system is forward looking. If we just unlocked the 40 new traits now, what about next time? It will always just be X more. We have to draw a line somewhere, and here is probably the best place to start.

You should maybe play your own game from a player point of view. If you are in the mists for the very first time. You try to find a build and you want take a trait but you can’t. You feel limited and in a bad position.

The Mists are a place to have fun. It is a place for fair pvp no matter how long you play this game. It was unique and great. But with your system this is over. If someone outplay me and I have the feeling that I need the new trait to counter him, I do not want to go to PvE and play XX hours to have the trait. I am frustrated and quit.

I played now more than 500 team Q games and more than 600 solo Q games and I still can’t use the new healing ability and I never will see the new traits :/

Just wanted to say thank you Justin for taking your time explaining the thought process behind this decision.

I actually really like the idea.
We can’t flame about PvP not being rewarding and then flame again once we see horizontal progression coming in. We should be thankfull.

Now, there will be 5 new traits for every class. Unlocking them in PvE didn’t sound to be a huuuge time consuming thing. So I doubt it will be much of a hassle in PvP as well.

What’s the issue with having something to do for an hour or two? It’s actually exactly what I wanted.

Grax.9204:

Just wanted to say thank you Justin for taking your time explaining the thought process behind this decision.

I actually really like the idea.
We can’t flame about PvP not being rewarding and then flame again once we see horizontal progression coming in. We should be thankfull.

Now, there will be 5 new traits for every class. Unlocking them in PvE didn’t sound to be a huuuge time consuming thing. So I doubt it will be much of a hassle in PvP as well.

What’s the issue with having something to do for an hour or two? It’s actually exactly what I wanted.

I’d like to echo the thank you. 11 posts from 1 dev in one thread on 1 page. You spoil us.

Justin ODell.9517:

Nineaxis.1826:

snip.

Please do not presume to speak for all players. As a PvP player, I disagree with you, and I know others that do as well.

If you want to turns this into a numbers game, please do keep in mind that the vast majority of PvP players play PvE and WvW as well. We definitely want to make the game fun and enjoyable for PvP-only players as well, but we need to keep a broader context when designing systems.

No. Playing PvP doesn’t make you a pvper. I’m so sick of dev’s tailoring the game to casuals. This game has one of the best combat systems for competitive pvp, yet you don’t do a thing to try to make it competitive.

Despite all the frustration the devs must have at the majority of the player bases QQ, a large portion of pvp’ers believe that the game is actually fairly balanced. The problem resides not within the traits, but with the complete lack of organization or effort from the players. Currently, everybody comps their team according to pre-existing specs. People overload on as much cc, and utility as they can, which completely limits their options, and in many cases makes them pass by their optimal builds. This isn’t how it’s done in the big leagues, boys. People peel for each other, boon remove for each other, condi remove for each other, etc..

PvP doesn’t need progression, it needs competition. Force us to make a premade team with a core 5 and room for a couple alternate players, and make a team ladder.

If you want to make something unlockable how about forcing a requirement on solo queues so pve’rs can’t come in until they know what they’re doing?