Guild Wars 2

Justin ODell.9517:

Nineaxis.1826:

snip.

Please do not presume to speak for all players. As a PvP player, I disagree with you, and I know others that do as well.

If you want to turns this into a numbers game, please do keep in mind that the vast majority of PvP players play PvE and WvW as well. We definitely want to make the game fun and enjoyable for PvP-only players as well, but we need to keep a broader context when designing systems.

So if you’re catering to the majority of PvP players who PvE and WvW, then unlocking a trait in PvE should also unlock it in PvP, right?

Nutshel.7264:

Justin ODell.9517:

As Roy mentioned in another thread, all the current traits will remain unlocked in PvP, even for new players. It is only new traits that need to be unlocked, and you will not have to PvE to obtain them.

Also, this system is designed for horizontal progression. Unlocking traits, or what have you, won’t (at least shouldn’t, barring any balance issues) make you more powerful, they simply give you a wider range of builds and allow you to better tune your character to your play style. Many, many successful games ease players into options, and, in my opinion, trait unlocking isn’t any different.

I am happy that you are active on forum but this statement is completely opposite to what was promised when it comes to spvp.
“All players will stand on equal footing, with only personal skill difference, from the very moment they step into spvp”.

If player A has more traits to choose from then player B, player B is in disadvantage if one of the missing traits turns to be stronger then other available, or necessary for build fitting meta. Your point would only ever be valid if all permutations of all possible builds were equally powerful in the same settings(meta+role). That is not possible and so gating some skills and traits does put new players in disadvantage – given that the new skills/traits are actually worth picking.

I have to agree with this. People that play only pvp like to re-roll when they get bored with a character’s looks. In this game they totally have that option. It’s a draw for the game. With this system, they can’t do it. Even if you make it so profession unlocks are account bound, it does seem to go against the original intent of the design of pvp.

I had a post where I suggested that you tie unlocking these for pvp in with a tutorial since there are so many players that don’t seem to get how the mechanics of maps work. My idea is probably bad though now that I think about it because of the original statement by ArenaNet that PvP is equal footing for all.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Tie-Earning-New-Traits-into-a-Tutorial/first#post3785486 I thought this would be a good idea, but now I think that it’s not all that great in the spirit of what PvP is supposed to be. We need a tutorial, but not at the expense of pvp having traits hidden behind unlocks.

It doesn’t matter how easy/hard they are to obtain. What matters is you are not able to create a new character, test things out and delete it without losing money.
It has no difference how and why and for how much unlocks can be obtained.
Only thing that matters is that this fights against everything they said about what spvp would be.

srsly teh onyl sellign point of this gaem was that everyone was on an even lvl in pvp and you had free access to everything. First you introduced new heals which wanst big of a problem because tehy where all so bad that nobody in their right mind would ever use them but apparently you just keep going on with adding new stuff that needs to be unlocked first… you are moving further and further away from a good game and betray your own previously stated philosophys at every opportunity you get…. i am seriously dissapointed

EverythingEnds.4261:

Problems with the unlock system:

1. It totally stands in contrast to the initial characteristics of GW2 pvp. Spvp was always ment to be a place where you could jump in right from the beginning, without having disadvantages at the choice of skills / traits.

2. Being able to unlock new skills / traits is NO reward, being not able to use those traits is just a penalty, however, this doesn’t turn the unlocking system into a reward.

3. What else will we have to unlock in PvP? It started with skills, now we have to unlock traits. What’s next? I heard, they also reward runes and sigils as well as they add new amuletts. Will we have to unlock those, too?

4. Every time, sombody has issues with fighting vs. a certain build, you usally get the answer “try to play that build by urself”. This is a good tip and as long you have 1 free char space, it is easy to realize. With unlocks, it will become “spend 1-2 gold into a char you probably wont use very much, if you want to try it”.

5. For PvE players, there are 2 ways to unlock the new traits: via “Exploring the world” and the general way, the merchant. PvP players will be restricted to the merchant. At least, give us a unique PvP way for unlocking them. What about using the e.g. “(Chapmion) Illusionist” titels or Ranks for that (in additoin to merchants)

And last, this is more related to the “fusion of PvE and PvP”.
I know, you already introduced coins in PvP, however you should consider this:
As soon PvP gives more coins than PvE, PvE players might abuse PvP for farming issues. However, as long PvP gives significantly leses coins than PvE, PvP players will complain about having disadvantages.
This gets worse, when you need coins to unlock stuff for PvP.
Getting less coins out of PvP isn’t that bad, if PvE is the only thing, you can use them for. Getting less coins out of PvP, while actually needing them for PvP is unfair.

Wow…. those are some excellent points. I couldn’t put it better myself.

I seriously don’t see a single benefit in having those unlocks.
Unlockable skins = good
Unlockable skills and traits = very bad and completely unnecessary.

Well, compared to how sPvP works in other MMOs, they did just about everything they could right the first time around. So obviously the only way they could go when changing it is to make it worse.

Forget dealing with the hard balance problems and nuking Skyhammer from orbit. Just give us something nobody asked for, that adds nothing good, and that negates what was the single best aspect of an entire game mode.

Unlocks in sPvP are flat out stupid.

Well since my previous short post: " we’re not Chinese" was deleted, I will further expand what I meant by that.

sPvP unlocks=grind (even if u pay for them, you grind the gold/currency … you get the “picture”). The term grinding is used to provide a “level playing field”, this effect could be achieved with any time-consuming behavior that is accessible to all and provides game advancement. The behavior need not be tedious or repetitive, as the term grinding generally implies . As long as all players remained equally capable of killing each other, the same leveling-off effect would be generated. Thus, the “level playing field” effect is considered by some (MYSELF AND EVERYONE I KNOW) to be a misleading attempt to hide the real reason for grinding: unwillingness to budget sufficient content resources to produce a varied game.

Justin ODell.9517:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

justin, could you confirm with us, that the newly unlocked traits would be account bound, once unlocked? because this is how it works for guild wars 1, once unlocked, is account wide. i expect the same in guild wars 2.

I don’t know, but I’ll bug Josh and Allie about it and see if they can get it answered on Ready Up tomorrow.

Account bound is required if you want to make a good horizontal progression.

New heals aren’t account bound and is not a good design, many time spvp players delete their characters to change race/skins/name, with unlocks not account bound they lose everything

Account bound is required for a good horizontal progression system.

Dahkeus.8243:

Ugruk.4069:

Dahkeus.8243:

Darek.1836:

Justin ODell.9517:

Nineaxis.1826:

snip.

Please do not presume to speak for all players. As a PvP player, I disagree with you, and I know others that do as well.

If you want to turns this into a numbers game, please do keep in mind that the vast majority of PvP players play PvE and WvW as well. We definitely want to make the game fun and enjoyable for PvP-only players as well, but we need to keep a broader context when designing systems.

No one on the entire forums agree with you. Does that not say enough?

Don’t try to speak for “everyone on the forums”.

I agree with Justin. I think a lot of players are getting scared that they’ll have to actually work towards something instead of just getting it handed to them, but personally, I will enjoy having something more than just a higher ranking to work towards.

I am completely, 100% against the power imbalances with players who put tons of time in the game for gear/bonus/etc. advantages like you see in other MMOs, but I don’t think that’s what this is.

This will be a good change.

So you would agree if they made you level you character to play spvp too? Since the rest of the people is so “entitled”.

You are missing the point of spvp, that was just play when you wanted and not to have to worry about petty things like gearing up and grind new skills, you were all on equal footing

If this only aplied to pve it’s fine they, dont have anymore to do besides afking in LA bank…

It is the comple oposite of what they advertised and made us belive…

Rofl! Come on, you can’t be serious! You’re comparing a trait unlock of additional traits for build diversity that can be done entirely through PvP to leveling an entirely new character to 80 through PvE only?

I know this change is scary, but just step away from your keyboard and think about it for a while.

Change is good when it helps. This change isn’t helpful but very hurtful to sPvP.

The current system isn’t broken at all and if it isn’t broken, don’t change it.

This is a PVE game – understand this, and it becomes infinitely easier to understand their decision making process.

The change is good for pve. It is good to drive activity in the open world, and it is enjoyable for explorers, achievement junkies, and pvers in general. If I was a pver, I would be delighted at the way the new traits are being implemented.

This change is not good for pvp, which has been mentioned several times. I am glad things are supposedly somehow “on their radar,” too bad the radar has not been used to address problems in the past – so we have little hope it will be used to address them in the future.

BUT, none of this matters, nor do these forums. We are a very very small percentage of the pvpers much less players in the game. We are also assumed frequently to have drastically different viewpoints from the anonymous and silent players, so it really does not matter how well you phrase your arguments, what ideas you put forward in this thread – they have taken 6 months to figure this out, so they will implement it how they want, and that will be that. Now calm down and go back to your pve-ing like a good Tyrian.

I’d grudgingly live with this new unlock system (even though I think it’s completely pointless and in fact a detriment to PVP) if these trait unlocks were account wide. But since the heal unlocks were character bound I sort of doubt it.

There’s absolutely no reason to make these unlocks character bound only. EXCEPT if this is just a way to sell character slots. I can no longer use my one slot to create and create PVP characters for the 3 professions that I don’t have as permanent characters. So either I kitten myself by not having those new unlocks, keep buying them over and over each time I make the characters or buy two extra slots. Maybe when I have everything I need and have extra gold leftover, I’ll convert those to gems and get slots. But I’ll never give ANET my money this way. I will not reward them for this system.

Dahkeus.8243:

Darek.1836:

Justin ODell.9517:

Nineaxis.1826:

snip.

Please do not presume to speak for all players. As a PvP player, I disagree with you, and I know others that do as well.

If you want to turns this into a numbers game, please do keep in mind that the vast majority of PvP players play PvE and WvW as well. We definitely want to make the game fun and enjoyable for PvP-only players as well, but we need to keep a broader context when designing systems.

No one on the entire forums agree with you. Does that not say enough?

Don’t try to speak for “everyone on the forums”.

I agree with Justin. I think a lot of players are getting scared that they’ll have to actually work towards something instead of just getting it handed to them, but personally, I will enjoy having something more than just a higher ranking to work towards.

I am completely, 100% against the power imbalances with players who put tons of time in the game for gear/bonus/etc. advantages like you see in other MMOs, but I don’t think that’s what this is.

This will be a good change.

Perhaps he should have said “90% of the playerbase does not agree with you”.

The PvP in this game was marketed around skill based play, not grind based. Equal footing for everyone from the getgo. Skill and trait unlocks is directly opposite this idea. No one is complaining because things aren’t being handed to them, they’re complaining because the focus of the game was supposed to be Skill, not skill as long as you have grinded out the necessary abilities/traits beforehand.

Here’s just 1 example – Let’s pretend Thief Venomshare is a good spec – the kind people in organized teams want. I’m a thief player – I’ve proven to a prospective team that I’ve got the skill and understanding required to play with them, but Oh No, I Don’t have skelk venom unlocked. Guess it’s time to go grind a bunch so I can get skelk venom. Unless of course I want to just buy them with currency I can obtain by spending real money of course.

Now repeat that for new traits, plus whatever else they’ll be releasing 8 months after this patch. How this any different from “I know my class well enough, but I have to grind to the next level of PvP gear before I’m effective”? The answer of course is that it isn’t different at all.

If the new trait is great I don’t mind buying it with gems or gold every time they release stuff I like I bought it with gems so I can support the game. The game has no monthly sub but the devs are very active and hard working if you are not happy then play other games or pay for games with sub

Justin,

GW2’s sPvP has always had a unique appeal to me due to the way it is separated from all other gameplay. It presents a level playing field, regardless of the time a player spends on other types of content. My opponents have exactly the same options in the way they decide to play their character as I do. In my opinion this is the way sPvP should stay, as it puts the focus on how you play your character, rather than on how you build it.

The substantial increase in grandmaster traits is an amazing change, for which I am extremely thankful. Many builds are made viable by grandmaster traits, and thus giving every line 3 grandmaster traits rather than 2 will (hopefully) make many more builds possible.

I do not agree with having them locked in sPvP however. It throws its independence from other types of gameplay out of the window. My opponent now has a broader choice set than me, simply because he enjoys different content. Of course you argue that the new traits will be fair, but this does not change the fact that the new traits will give him build diversity that I do not have. This will make him, all else equal, better off, and will give him an edge over me.

Please do not get me wrong, I love the idea of ‘skill hunting’. I merely disagree with implementing this type of progression, which is for progression’s sake, in sPvP. GW2’s PvP system should give experienced players no edge over new players other than skill, which is the way it is at this moment. Please do not stray from this path.

jayson.6512:

If the new trait is great I don’t mind buying it with gems or gold every time they release stuff I like I bought it with gems so I can support the game. The game has no monthly sub but the devs are very active and hard working if you are not happy then play other games or pay for games with sub

I’m all for the monetization of pvp, but not when it corrupts the basic principle of the game, which again is “Everyone has the same footing, skill is what determines fights.” I’d prefer to just pay a monthly sub then watch this BS unfold.

Personally I agree with the OP, I think all gear and skill unlocks should be available in PvP without any work. However, if ANet decides that they have to implement skill unlocks in PvP, we should pay attention to how much effort is required. If unlocking the 13th trait costs 1g for each character, I’ll say fine, it’s not ideal but it’s not unreasonable. If on the other hand it costs 10g for the 13th trait on one character, it will be too much work and too expensive.

TLDR: I think that free > 1g > 10g.

Where were all you people who don’t want horizontal progression in sPvP when everyone else was asking for it?

If I was Anet, I would have made the same decision based on feedback.

It’s probably the case that if they implement gold into sPvP, then sPvP needs some form of gold sink for the economy to remain stable.

But that’s a bit heady for forum-talk.

The bottom line is as long as it remains just a minor gold sink for regular players and doesn’t limit their ability to multiclass fully then it’s ok.

BeardRex.6739:

Where were all you people who don’t want horizontal progression in sPvP when everyone else was asking for it?

If I was Anet, I would have made the same decision based on feedback.

Please link us some of these posts where people said “I want new/returning players to have to grind to have the same access to abilities/traits as everyone else”.

Dev says
“Saying we don’t care isn’t just wrong, it shuts down and discourages dialog between developers and players.”

What about doublespeak and canned corporate PR responses? You can’t have a conversation with someone when you ask a question and they don’t answer it, answer it with another question, or ban the forum user for “not being constructive.”

Adding more skills to a trait system that has been entirely broken since Day 1, when every meta has been getting worse, shows that the Skills and Combat team needs a new name of Incompetence and Cheese team.

They take the lazy way out with everything. Necro not up to par? Throw a passive burn on their crits. Warrior not up to par? Double their passive heal.

Now the brilliant plan to fix all this is to throw wads of new stuff at the system. These new traits don’t even include the new sigil system that the illustrious balance masters have obviously screwed up already because they are clueless. It’s like having a completely cluttered garage where everything is out of place and then throwing a crate of used parts all over the floor.

You guys have no hope of fixing this game’s PvP and have made it clear, intentionally or not, that you don’t give a kitten about it.

evilapprentice.6379:

The PvP in this game was marketed around skill based play, not grind based. Equal footing for everyone from the getgo. Skill and trait unlocks is directly opposite this idea. No one is complaining because things aren’t being handed to them, they’re complaining because the focus of the game was supposed to be Skill, not skill as long as you have grinded out the necessary abilities/traits beforehand.

So League of Legends is a “grind based”?

Even if it is, it’s the most popular PvP game in the world. People obviously like having progression like this. You might now. A small, vocal portion of the community might not, but people having been asking for this, and it is already proven to be successful in other games.

Just because people are now complaining, doesn’t mean there weren’t twice as many or more complaining that sPvP didn’t have a horizontal progression system.

BeardRex.6739:

evilapprentice.6379:

The PvP in this game was marketed around skill based play, not grind based. Equal footing for everyone from the getgo. Skill and trait unlocks is directly opposite this idea. No one is complaining because things aren’t being handed to them, they’re complaining because the focus of the game was supposed to be Skill, not skill as long as you have grinded out the necessary abilities/traits beforehand.

So League of Legends is a “grind based”?

Even if it is, it’s the most popular PvP game in the world. People obviously like having progression like this. You might now. A small, vocal portion of the community might not, but people having been asking for this, and it is already proven to be successful in other games.

Just because people are now complaining, doesn’t mean there weren’t twice as many or more complaining that sPvP didn’t have a horizontal progression system.

You know, I don’t recall mentioning LoL. Or playing it. Or being on their boards. We’re talking about GW2, what they marketed the game as, and what they’re now doing. If you can’t make a point that relates to that, you don’t really have a point to make in this discussion.

evilapprentice.6379:

BeardRex.6739:

evilapprentice.6379:

The PvP in this game was marketed around skill based play, not grind based. Equal footing for everyone from the getgo. Skill and trait unlocks is directly opposite this idea. No one is complaining because things aren’t being handed to them, they’re complaining because the focus of the game was supposed to be Skill, not skill as long as you have grinded out the necessary abilities/traits beforehand.

So League of Legends is a “grind based”?

Even if it is, it’s the most popular PvP game in the world. People obviously like having progression like this. You might now. A small, vocal portion of the community might not, but people having been asking for this, and it is already proven to be successful in other games.

Just because people are now complaining, doesn’t mean there weren’t twice as many or more complaining that sPvP didn’t have a horizontal progression system.

You know, I don’t recall mentioning LoL. Or playing it. Or being on their boards. We’re talking about GW2, what they marketed the game as, and what they’re now doing. If you can’t make a point that relates to that, you don’t really have a point to make in this discussion.

If you don’t think the progression system in the most popular pvp game in the word is an important part of the discussion then you really are ignorant.

BeardRex.6739:

evilapprentice.6379:

BeardRex.6739:

evilapprentice.6379:

The PvP in this game was marketed around skill based play, not grind based. Equal footing for everyone from the getgo. Skill and trait unlocks is directly opposite this idea. No one is complaining because things aren’t being handed to them, they’re complaining because the focus of the game was supposed to be Skill, not skill as long as you have grinded out the necessary abilities/traits beforehand.

So League of Legends is a “grind based”?

Even if it is, it’s the most popular PvP game in the world. People obviously like having progression like this. You might now. A small, vocal portion of the community might not, but people having been asking for this, and it is already proven to be successful in other games.

Just because people are now complaining, doesn’t mean there weren’t twice as many or more complaining that sPvP didn’t have a horizontal progression system.

You know, I don’t recall mentioning LoL. Or playing it. Or being on their boards. We’re talking about GW2, what they marketed the game as, and what they’re now doing. If you can’t make a point that relates to that, you don’t really have a point to make in this discussion.

If you don’t think the progression system in the most popular pvp game in the word is an important part of the discussion then you really are ignorant.

If you think that the progression system for any other game anywhere somehow factors in to a discussion concerning how this game was marketed vs what they’re doing now you really are fishing.

Whether or not this is a good idea isn’t what I’m discussing. What I’m discussing is whether or not this leaves the games original design (equal footing for all players, regardless of play time/grinding, differentiated only by skill) intact, and it very clearly does not. You’re so wrapped up in your own argument you aren’t bothering to read mine, just hammering away – you’re not interested in a discussion, just shouting your point over and over and over and over and over again until everyone agrees with you or gets tired of your inability to process the inaccuracies and moves on.

I just stumbled on the greatest invention ever! Hot-pocket cheeseburger bites! Just spreading the word, but to remain on topic I am looking forward to the new changes, additions. I don’t mind unlocks. But the one thing that really bothersome is the even more grindy feeling in spvp now. Yes it was grindy before for ranking, but at least I had some type of reward / jp to spend to give me that sense of something for my time investment. Now at higher rank the ranking still feels like a slow creep with nothing for macro-accomplishments. Like have a long term goal, but focusing on the sub goals, weekly goals to keep the motivation and sense of accomplishment live. Oops went of topic again. My b.

I just don’t understand anet…

why on earth do these type of things that the MAJORITY of the community is against????

That is my simple question

the community has tirelessly spoken about skyhammer and there is still NOTHING from anets side about it

This shows me they don’t care

Now we have this ridiculous unlocking system where once again THE MAJORITY OF THE COMMUNITY (PvP community) is completely against……

why on earth make these changes when its absolutely going to be met with hate? I don’t get this logic at all, so please, explain it to me justin or anyone really

Because this is NOT what they told us it would be like. ArenaNet explicitly and repeatedly stated that PVP would always have everything unlocked, as recently as July 2013.

so what gives???

don’t get me wrong,
It’s a good addition for PvE, but it shouldn’t be there for sPvP. I mean honestly you could lock every class at one build until you pay 50 gold to unlock the other trait choices and still argue “It’s only horizontal progression”. Grandmaster Traits are usually absolutely build defining(unless you play ranger lol), I don’t want to be locked out of a build choice, because I didn’t pay X-Amount of gold to a vendor ingame.

SkiTz.4590:

I just don’t understand anet…

why on earth do these type of things that the MAJORITY of the community is against????

Where is your data that supports the “MAJORITY” is against this?

Saying “look at all the posts” is not good enough.

This forum is filled with people saying “Look at everyone speaking up against this! There are literally dozens of us! Dozens!”

BeardRex.6739:

SkiTz.4590:

I just don’t understand anet…

why on earth do these type of things that the MAJORITY of the community is against????

Where is your data that supports the “MAJORITY” is against this?

Saying “look at all the posts” is not good enough.

This forum is filled with people saying “Look at everyone speaking up against this! There are literally dozens of us! Dozens!”

I wouldn’t base it off forums
I base it on what a lot of my guildies who heavily play spvp
I base it on what nearly everyone standing around in HoTM waiting on que say…

Sure theres ppl who love skyhammer lol, its a troll/fun map and some ppl love it, but it has no business in competitive pvp

I still don’t get why anet doesnt implement ingame poll or voting system and let the community decide if they like this or not… its a great way to get feedback

hey justin
one thing that will put some minds to ease would be to release to us the time it would take to unlock a single new trait (assuming all of them take the same amount of time). if its miniscule, then dont bother yourself with all of these complainers.

XacTactX.6709:

Personally I agree with the OP, I think all gear and skill unlocks should be available in PvP without any work. However, if ANet decides that they have to implement skill unlocks in PvP, we should pay attention to how much effort is required. If unlocking the 13th trait costs 1g for each character, I’ll say fine, it’s not ideal but it’s not unreasonable. If on the other hand it costs 10g for the 13th trait on one character, it will be too much work and too expensive. . .

I agree with you for the most part. . .but . . .

I would really really like to know why they are completely changing core game systems, instead of superficial and fluff explanations of why they are changing things and their goals for new systems.

“The addition of new skills and traits on a regular basis will of course mean expanded variety of abilities, builds, and tactics in PvP as well. As these additional skills and traits are added, they’ll be automatically unlocked and available for competitive PvP just like all existing skills/traits work today.” – Colin Johanson on July 18, 2013 in Looking Ahead: Guild Wars 2 in 2013

At this point I’m not sure if I will come back and play Spvp/ GW2 if at all because I do not have a thorough understanding of Anet’s point of view and their new goals and objectives for completely changing fundamental ideals of core game systems.

I don’t want to grind possibly endless hours for each trait for all 8 professions playing Spvp/ the game in general without sufficiently understanding why the grind was implemented.

The only things that kept the game fun for me was jumping into Spvp on multiple professions knowing from the get go any profession I used was relatively equal to everyone provided I used optimal or “best” builds. Now, using multiple professions will likely be a massive inconvenience unless I buy oodles of gems or grind countless hours farming content (karka/frostgorge farming, anyone?) to be able to unlock the new and likely very expensive and initially most likely greatly overpowered abilities to make me competitive.

Regardless of whether or not I agree with Anet’s reasons, I would really like to come to a better understanding of why the core principles of Spvp are being fundamentally altered. I will gladly put up with the new inconvenience provided I have a thorough and more accurate understanding of why and how. The previous information and explanations are not sufficient enough for me to arrive at a better understanding.

SkiTz.4590:

I still don’t get why anet doesnt implement ingame poll or voting system and let the community decide if they like this or not… its a great way to get feedback

Honestly, I’d be all for every aspect of the game having an in-game “survey” option at the end of the experience like most games do it beta. It would probably give much more accurate data than anecdotes and forum whining.

BeardRex.6739:

evilapprentice.6379:

The PvP in this game was marketed around skill based play, not grind based. Equal footing for everyone from the getgo. Skill and trait unlocks is directly opposite this idea. No one is complaining because things aren’t being handed to them, they’re complaining because the focus of the game was supposed to be Skill, not skill as long as you have grinded out the necessary abilities/traits beforehand.

So League of Legends is a “grind based”?

Even if it is, it’s the most popular PvP game in the world. People obviously like having progression like this. You might now. A small, vocal portion of the community might not, but people having been asking for this, and it is already proven to be successful in other games.

Just because people are now complaining, doesn’t mean there weren’t twice as many or more complaining that sPvP didn’t have a horizontal progression system.

First, correct me if I’m wrong, but LoL hasn’t been telling their player base that they would have all characters/skills unlocked at start like ArenaNet has.

Second, I would argue that LoL is succeeding due to merits other than having to unlock characters/skills/etc. I bet a lot of LoL players would love to have that aspect of “progression” removed, but they still play it because of all the other things that the game is doing right. DotA2 is also extremely successful and they haven’t had to introduce any horizontal progression that wasn’t cosmetic.

BeardRex.6739:

If you don’t think the progression system in the most popular pvp game in the word is an important part of the discussion then you really are ignorant.

Wow. This is probably one of the worst arguments I’ve seen in a while. Popular games do not have to dictate the mechanics of all other games within the same genre. If you believe this then you have a really closed mind and worse yet, a mind that lacks any creativity and imagination.

Basically your argument boils down to this, "LOL is the most popular game in the world and it has grind, therefore it’s the grind that makes it popular! Also, LOL has the letters “LOL” in it, therefore it’s those letters that makes it popular! All games should have those letters!".

This is about the lack of accountability

when a game director tells the community one thing and than later, something is implemented that goes completely against what was OFFICIALLY stated months ago is setting a pretty bad example

Now there is a trust issue/conflict. Can we actually believe what anet tells us now?

Geniekid.2645:

BeardRex.6739:

evilapprentice.6379:

The PvP in this game was marketed around skill based play, not grind based. Equal footing for everyone from the getgo. Skill and trait unlocks is directly opposite this idea. No one is complaining because things aren’t being handed to them, they’re complaining because the focus of the game was supposed to be Skill, not skill as long as you have grinded out the necessary abilities/traits beforehand.

So League of Legends is a “grind based”?

Even if it is, it’s the most popular PvP game in the world. People obviously like having progression like this. You might now. A small, vocal portion of the community might not, but people having been asking for this, and it is already proven to be successful in other games.

Just because people are now complaining, doesn’t mean there weren’t twice as many or more complaining that sPvP didn’t have a horizontal progression system.

First, correct me if I’m wrong, but LoL hasn’t been telling their player base that they would have all characters/skills unlocked at start like ArenaNet has.

Second, I would argue that LoL is succeeding due to merits other than having to unlock characters/skills/etc. I bet a lot of LoL players would love to have that aspect of “progression” removed, but they still play it because of all the other things that the game is doing right. DotA2 is also extremely successful and they haven’t had to introduce any horizontal progression that wasn’t cosmetic.

Those games are popular and successful because they are FUN to play regardless of rewards or progression. Why play a game if it’s not fun?

The new progression system doesn’t bother me.

isolatedchimp.2510:

BeardRex.6739:

If you don’t think the progression system in the most popular pvp game in the word is an important part of the discussion then you really are ignorant.

Wow. This is probably one of the worst arguments I’ve seen in a while. Popular games do not have to dictate the mechanics of all other games within the same genre. If you believe this then you have a really closed mind and worse yet, a mind that lacks any creativity and imagination.

Basically your argument boils down to this, "LOL is the most popular game in the world and it has grind, therefore it’s the grind that makes it popular! Also, LOL has the letters “LOL” in it, therefore it’s those letters that makes it popular! All games should have those letters!".

I’m saying it’s a point for discussion. You don’t have to agree with me on whether or not Anet should be looking at other games or not, but I was simply stating that ignoring other games is ignorant. Which it is. Even the dev stated that they looked at how other games reward players.

In gw1 we used to unlock skills with balth factions. This doesn’t bother me. The lack of different game modes bothers me tho.

iriyabran.6218:

In gw1 we used to unlock skills with balth factions. This doesn’t bother me. The lack of different game modes bothers me tho.

Unless you can pick up an 2 elite skills / 6 normal skills per hour you’re looking at a slower rate of gain, pile on the simple fact that GW skills were Bound to account and not to character and you’re looking at an even larger difference.

I wouldn’t mind this at all if it was account bound, but it isn’t.

BeardRex.6739:

isolatedchimp.2510:

BeardRex.6739:

If you don’t think the progression system in the most popular pvp game in the word is an important part of the discussion then you really are ignorant.

Wow. This is probably one of the worst arguments I’ve seen in a while. Popular games do not have to dictate the mechanics of all other games within the same genre. If you believe this then you have a really closed mind and worse yet, a mind that lacks any creativity and imagination.

Basically your argument boils down to this, "LOL is the most popular game in the world and it has grind, therefore it’s the grind that makes it popular! Also, LOL has the letters “LOL” in it, therefore it’s those letters that makes it popular! All games should have those letters!".

I’m saying it’s a point for discussion. You don’t have to agree with me on whether or not Anet should be looking at other games or not, but I was simply stating that ignoring other games is ignorant. Which it is. Even the dev stated that they looked at how other games reward players.

I agree with this. But, out of all the things ANet chose to copy, they chose unnecessary Unlocks. They don’t need to copy everything, otherwise why not copy Vertical progression too?

how many times we go through the same thing?

we want to earn things playing the game mode we want. if pve players get traits by playing the game, why do wvw/ pvp players need to buy them.

it is not about not playing pve for us. it is about being rewarded for playing wvw/ pvp. common anet, this is gw1 stuff.

not only that, i would suggest that wvw players unlock things playing wvw in pve and pvp also, that pvp players unlock things playing pvp in pve and wvw, and finally that pve players unlock things playing pve in pvp and wvw also (oh wait… pve players do…)

runeblade.7514:

BeardRex.6739:

isolatedchimp.2510:

BeardRex.6739:

If you don’t think the progression system in the most popular pvp game in the word is an important part of the discussion then you really are ignorant.

Wow. This is probably one of the worst arguments I’ve seen in a while. Popular games do not have to dictate the mechanics of all other games within the same genre. If you believe this then you have a really closed mind and worse yet, a mind that lacks any creativity and imagination.

Basically your argument boils down to this, "LOL is the most popular game in the world and it has grind, therefore it’s the grind that makes it popular! Also, LOL has the letters “LOL” in it, therefore it’s those letters that makes it popular! All games should have those letters!".

I’m saying it’s a point for discussion. You don’t have to agree with me on whether or not Anet should be looking at other games or not, but I was simply stating that ignoring other games is ignorant. Which it is. Even the dev stated that they looked at how other games reward players.

I agree with this. But, out of all the things ANet chose to copy, they chose unnecessary Unlocks. They don’t need to copy everything, otherwise why not copy Vertical progression too?

That’s a slippery slope fallacy.

I honestly have lost all faith in arena net when it comes to anything you’ve ever said. Almost none of your manifesto is still even applicable to the direction you are taking the game. The first round of unlocks that had to be purchased for PvP were ATROCIOUS enough in terms of blatantly going against the idea of time in game giving another player an advantage in terms of available power in SPvP, that thing you said you didn’t want. Fortunately just about every heal skill you released was absolute trash so it didn’t matter if you had them or not chances are you are not using them… no one is using them for PvP for the most part anyways.

However the fact that you are now going to also gate a players access to TRAITS in pvp by, strictly speaking, time in game is asinine. I don’t mind having goals to work towards but part of the selling point of this game was not having gated pvp AT ALL, zero, none, non-existent, so forgive me if I’m a little livid to keep learning time and time again that you do the exact opposite.

So no, you are blatantly wrong to charge a player any currency, or anything at all, to determine access to anything that could give an advantage in combat in SPvP, by your own manifesto and business statements.

BeardRex.6739:

That’s a slippery slope fallacy.

A slippery slope fallacy would mean that by implementing unlocks they will inevitably implement vertical progression.

What he asks is basically: They did this, why not also do this?" and not “Now that they did this, this will also happen.”

He didn’t commit a slippery slope fallacy.

Justin ODell.9517:

If you want to turns this into a numbers game, please do keep in mind that the vast majority of PvP players play PvE and WvW as well. We definitely want to make the game fun and enjoyable for PvP-only players as well, but we need to keep a broader context when designing systems.

Fallacy. That is because GW2 frankly isn’t even close to being a (s)PvP centered game, there’s very little to do and it’s very barebones, and due to that there’s only a tiny hardcore PvP scene left that plays only or mostly PvP.

This is the exact demographic you’re scaring away with changes like this.

It’s a ploy to sell character slots because now you won’t be able to delete characters so easily.

agree with OP. this change basically goes against what pvp was promised to be. it might not have a big negative effect right now but it’s the wrong direction to take.

Since when does gating abilities constitute horizontal progression? This isn’t modern warfare.

Seems pointless and annoying.

PvP Unlocks -yes, please, just like in GW1 or LoL etc, gives good incentives. But please make it so that doing PvP is the best thing to unlock them, not farming money in PvE or some stuff like that that doesn´t make sense.

Acaro.4067:

PvP Unlocks -yes, please, just like in GW1 or LoL etc, gives good incentives. But please make it so that doing PvP is the best thing to unlock them, not farming money in PvE or some stuff like that that doesn´t make sense.

It’s already been stated, pve content will unlock them or you can buy them with gold. No confirmation of pvp content unlocking them.