Guild Wars 2

I cant see creating a barrier to entry as a good thing. The only thing I can imagine being good is trying to create more investment into a character to try to retain players.

Can’t say I’m happy about the ‘everything unlocked’ or ‘level playing field’ being thrown away though.

Old players will probably jump in, see that they need to unlock stuff to experience anything new and log out.

Well, regardless of how I feel about the future of PvP (and I think it’s clear I don’t like it), thanks for jumping in here and talking to us Justin.

I have no problem with unlockable traits – and if they introduced new skills or runes or sigils and they decided to make them too unlockable for gold (or any other currency), I wouldn’t have any problem for that either. As long as a beginner has access to enough variety to make a competitive build, unlocks will give them a sense of progression and something to aim for and feel a sense of achievement about. It worked absolutely fine in GW1, people couldn’t wait to run to the Priest of Balthazar and spend their faction on unlocks, and it works absolutely fine on the SCORES of f2p pvp games out there.

Anyway, the new healing skills they introduced a few months back also had to be unlocked, and nobody complained! Why is that? Could it be because everyone had hundreds of skill points saved since launch and didn’t mind, whereas now because they’re saying they’ll also be unlockable for gold you’re all feeling their evil hands in your pockets? I don’t remember seeing any posts that went “I’ve been doing nothing but pvp since launch so I have neither skill points to buy these nor gold to buy scrolls of knowledge with!” Face it, even the most hardcore of us still do a little bit of pvp, so we all have more than enough gold saved up to unlock these skills if you cba to go into pve to unlock them. And if there are one or two people who don’t, and end up buying some gems to trade for gold so they can unlock them right away, do you really begrudge ANet making a few bucks?? I for one though, even though I barely step into pve since I got my main to 80, will be unlocking them to pve, not because I don’t want them to have my money but because I find the extra time and effort will make the feeling of achievement greater, and maybe bring back memories of some of the epic elite capping expeditions I undertook in GW1.

In the long term I think it’s better for the health of pvp to have even more unlocks, and eventually I’d actually like to see the pvp portion of the game to be made f2p and funded entirely through unlocks.

manveruppd.7601:

Anyway, the new healing skills they introduced a few months back also had to be unlocked, and nobody complained! Why is that?

That’s bullkitten. People WERE complaining about it. Just because you didn’t see it doesn’t mean the complaints didn’t exist.

manveruppd.7601:

I have no problem with unlockable traits – and if they introduced new skills or runes or sigils and they decided to make them too unlockable for gold (or any other currency), I wouldn’t have any problem for that either. As long as a beginner has access to enough variety to make a competitive build, unlocks will give them a sense of progression and something to aim for and feel a sense of achievement about. It worked absolutely fine in GW1, people couldn’t wait to run to the Priest of Balthazar and spend their faction on unlocks, and it works absolutely fine on the SCORES of f2p pvp games out there.

Anyway, the new healing skills they introduced a few months back also had to be unlocked, and nobody complained! Why is that? Could it be because everyone had hundreds of skill points saved since launch and didn’t mind, whereas now because they’re saying they’ll also be unlockable for gold you’re all feeling their evil hands in your pockets? I don’t remember seeing any posts that went “I’ve been doing nothing but pvp since launch so I have neither skill points to buy these nor gold to buy scrolls of knowledge with!” Face it, even the most hardcore of us still do a little bit of pvp, so we all have more than enough gold saved up to unlock these skills if you cba to go into pve to unlock them. And if there are one or two people who don’t, and end up buying some gems to trade for gold so they can unlock them right away, do you really begrudge ANet making a few bucks?? I for one though, even though I barely step into pve since I got my main to 80, will be unlocking them to pve, not because I don’t want them to have my money but because I find the extra time and effort will make the feeling of achievement greater, and maybe bring back memories of some of the epic elite capping expeditions I undertook in GW1.

In the long term I think it’s better for the health of pvp to have even more unlocks, and eventually I’d actually like to see the pvp portion of the game to be made f2p and funded entirely through unlocks.

1. If this kind of progression works fine in scores of f2p games is most likely because
they are free to play and it is a way for a company to make money. And the model they advertised was not everyone can join pvp and be on the same playing field as veteran players, since grinding does not give you any advantage.
2. Why there was no complaining about healing skills? First of all there was a little bit of complaining, but not as vocal. The reason was that new heals were all crappy – almost no use in pvp. Also I’ve been doing nothing but pvp since launch so I had neither skill points nor gold to buy new heals – that is not an exaggeration, now I do since buying tomes is the only sink of glory I had.
3. Buying gems to become equal level with everyone else who can grind some pve mobs? This is truly a good strategy for an MMORPG that at launch marketed itself as an esport mmorpg. I would’t give anet few bucks (actually euros in my case) if they were dying out of starvation. And that is not because I do not support development, I supported PoE developers, but they actually make the game better instead of worse.
4. Unlocking traits via slaying pve mobs IS NOT a reward, thus it should not feel like an achievement. It is just a time gate/money grabbing gate implemented by game developers.
5. If the game actually became free to play and unlock system that funds anet will be implemented, then they should prepare to refund the game for anyone who bought it to have an “everyone equal, no grind required pvp”.

Lukin.4061:

2. Why there was no complaining about healing skills? First of all there was a little bit of complaining, but not as vocal. The reason was that new heals were all crappy – almost no use in pvp. Also I’ve been doing nothing but pvp since launch so I had neither skill points nor gold to buy new heals – that is not an exaggeration, now I do since buying tomes is the only sink of glory I had.

The real reason why people aren’t as vocal is because unlockable in sPvP concept is new. So people been saying, “Oh, just wait a see. It might be good, trust the developers.”

Now we experienced it and proven to be a terrible concept.

We need a seperate pvp currency for unlocking this, just like in gw1. We can use gold for a lot of other things.

Atleast make trait unlocks profession bound, not character bound.

The only profession I play in pve is Mesmer. The others are either lvl 2, or below lvl40. I very often reroll the lvl2 ones just for pvp, for example when I want it to be another race, or use other looks and stuff.

If I play a certain build with a new grandmaster trait, rerolling (which is a big part of my pvp experience, because I love how you have everything right from the start) would basically force me to pay more gold tounlock that trait again… Or rather, I won’t be able to reroll anymore.

Please make trait unlocks profession bound, so you only have to unlock it once, atleast in pvp :/.

Alissah.9281:

Atleast make trait unlocks profession bound, not character bound.

The only profession I play in pve is Mesmer. The others are either lvl 2, or below lvl40. I very often reroll the lvl2 ones just for pvp, for example when I want it to be another race, or use other looks and stuff.

If I play a certain build with a new grandmaster trait, rerolling (which is a big part of my pvp experience, because I love how you have everything right from the start) would basically force me to pay more gold tounlock that trait again… Or rather, I won’t be able to reroll anymore.

Please make trait unlocks profession bound, so you only have to unlock it once, atleast in pvp :/.

Now you seem to get what this “unlocking in spvp” thing is all about…

I commend Justin for debating with the community. However, I think we need Bill O’Reilly to declare this a no-spin zone… No matter what you call it, horizontal/vertical progression, if a kitten person buys this game 2 months from now, they will NOT be on the same level playing field as a veteran in pvp.

This goes directly against the spirit of pvp, and it’s sad. We should have knew something was up when you had to unlock the heals as well………. SIGH. At least these traits are good though. haha

MailMail.6534:

No matter what you call it, horizontal/vertical progression, if a kitten person buys this game 2 months from now, they will NOT be on the same level playing field as a veteran in pvp.

Sigh…
Being able to play literally every spec upon buying a game is the least of a new players worries… you are acting like new players aren’t already at a disadvantage, like they don’t have hundreds of animations they don’t know, all of conquest tactics along with counting dodge rolls, exc. exc…
Compared to that, I mean, unless Anet kittens it up pretty bad, this won’t noticeably unlevel their playing field any more… LoL does something similiar, Smite does something similiar, most top tier competitive games have an unlock system.
It doesn’t beat up on new players.
It gives them something to strive for.

I’m not saying the change is great, it seems mediocre at best, but if you know anything about Anet, that’s crazy progressive. Compared to skyhammer, compared to the condi meta compared to ham-bow warriors compared to the tourny queue system… this is gold. This might not be something that is utterly useless or actually hurting the game. It’s a step (albeit a VERY small one) in the right direction… yet people are QQ’ing for days..
What.
The.
kitten.

butch.8136:

We need a seperate pvp currency for unlocking this, just like in gw1. We can use gold for a lot of other things.

Yes, just like Glory.

Justin ODell.9517:

isolatedchimp.2510:

Can you explain the reason for these unlocks to be character bound rather than account bound for PVP? In PVE I can understand but PVP I just can’t think of why you’d do it that way.

I don’t know the reasoning behind it. Personally, I would prefer account-bound unlocks, but I know there is a segment of the community that prefer character unlocks… strange as that may seem.

We do listen, so do share your thoughts (perhaps in another thread) on why you believe account-bound unlocks would be better for the game and better for players.

What? How people can prefer character unlocks instead of account unlocks…it’s a no sense, account bound is an higher permission level, character bound is only a limitation.

Can’t be true lol, maybe some pve player prefers this option but i’m sure if you make a poll about account bound/character bound there is no story.

C’mon, stop listening the community minority when you design this game aspects.

You changed Fractal level from character to account bound, you will change wxp from character to account bound, basically every character bound aspect sux, i can’understand why anet reintroduce character bound in new game aspects.

Really, it’s a wrong logic

garethh.3518:

MailMail.6534:

No matter what you call it, horizontal/vertical progression, if a kitten person buys this game 2 months from now, they will NOT be on the same level playing field as a veteran in pvp.

Sigh…
Being able to play literally every spec upon buying a game is the least of a new players worries… you are acting like new players aren’t already at a disadvantage, like they don’t have hundreds of animations they don’t know, all of conquest tactics along with counting dodge rolls, exc. exc…
Compared to that, I mean, unless Anet kittens it up pretty bad, this won’t noticeably unlevel their playing field any more… LoL does something similiar, Smite does something similiar, most top tier competitive games have an unlock system.
It doesn’t beat up on new players.
It gives them something to strive for.

This thread is crazy, compared to the kitten Anet has thrown into this game (condi meta, ham-bow warriors, skyhammer, exc.) this change is gold. It’s one of the few times Anet isn’t making an utterly useless feature, or one that is making the game worse… yet people are still QQ’ing for days.

You want something to strive for? There is WvW. Tons of progression in it. I rather have ANet balance progression there than introduce a badly-made one in sPvP. sPvP don’t need this useless feature.

Did players stay in LoL to earn every single champion out there or did they stay because it is fun? Did the top tier sPvPer leave because lack of power progression or did they leave because of something else?

runeblade.7514:

You want something to strive for? There is WvW. Tons of progression in it. I rather have ANet balance progression there than introduce a badly-made one in sPvP. sPvP don’t need this useless feature.

Did players stay in LoL to earn every single champion out there or did they stay because it is fun? Did the top tier sPvPer leave because lack of power progression or did they leave because of something else?

You’re words… the holes are everywhere…
So because progression isn’t the main reason so many people left, that means that it can’t be a mildly beneficial change?
So because LoL has many things going for it, progression can’t be a perc in any way?
So because one part of GW2 has progression, another part couldn’t benefit from it?
So because… no reasoning… it is useless?

Iason Evan.3806:

[…]

But your tag says, “Unlocks are always better. No exceptions.”

Exactly. One-time account bound unlocks, like the achievement point rewards, or the HoM rewards, or everything sold in the GW1 store.

Got a nice skin reward from achievements or living story? Unlock it, and any character can use it.
Want a gemstore skin? Pay once for it, use it with any compatible piece of equipment unlimited times without having to pay each time you want to apply it, and without losing access to it when it’s no longer in the store.
Want a gemstore toy or unlimited gathering tool? Pay once for it, get it with any character unlimited times without having to juggle an item in the bank or having to buy one per character.
Got commander unlocked? Can set the commander emblem withany character.
Learned a recipe with a character? It gets unlocked, and added to an account-wide list and any other character can learn the recipe faster without finding the recipe sheet again, depending on how the recipe was learned the first time: karma (costs karma) discovery (requires the materials and artisan level and give exp when learned), others (requires coin).
Got a skill or trait unlocked with a character? No other character of the same profession needs to unlock it again in PvP, and in PvE they have a reduced cost for those unlocked skills.

And so on.

Unlocks are always better.

No exceptions.

Justin ODell.9517:

Pyriall.5027:

Justin…why are there no unlocks through pvp content. Why is it always a one way street in favor of pve?

I’m all for that idea! Traits or what-have-you being only unlockable through PvP (or through coins) sounds like a great idea. Will have to mention it to the Skills and Combat team.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Tie-Earning-New-Traits-into-a-Tutorial/first#post3785486

I made this post a few days ago. PvP needs a tutorial. Playing in hot join is totally different from playing in solo queue which is totally different from playing in Team Queue. The issue? Players go from hot join playing in the exact fashion they play in hot join in solo queue. I also changed my opinion about PvP having unlocks because of what was said by devs about PvP being equal ground. I really think that philosophy shift by you guys should have had an explanation laid out by the development team. Changes are one thing. Same with philosophical shifts. Not explaining that to the player base though definitely warrants a little consternation on the consumer’s part. There are a lot of us that put a lot of time into the game for enjoyment and having the way we play get fundamentally changed without an explanation isn’t the best on your guys’s end. Communication goes a long way. Even if we disagree with why you guys did it, at least it was communicated and we can’t get mad about trust being dulled because of lack of transparency.

I also think that not putting in a system of unlocking these traits via PvP was a mistake. Forcing the players to either play a format they don’t want to play or pay money wasn’t the way to go. This also doesn’t help new players. There are traits in there that they will not have access to before level 80. They won’t be able to afford it either if they are on their first character. That’s the epitome of vertical progression. You can’t get something in PvP until you reach a certain point in PvE or attain a certain amount of coin. Builds will be off limits to those players. I can only say I disagree with the decision because no one from ArenaNet has said why the philosophy shift happened in the first place. Because of that, I can’t have a logical discussion until I can discern why it happened.

It’s frustrating man, and I hope you can see why it is frustrating for many of us.

garethh.3518:

runeblade.7514:

You want something to strive for? There is WvW. Tons of progression in it. I rather have ANet balance progression there than introduce a badly-made one in sPvP. sPvP don’t need this useless feature.

Did players stay in LoL to earn every single champion out there or did they stay because it is fun? Did the top tier sPvPer leave because lack of power progression or did they leave because of something else?

You’re words… the holes are everywhere…
So because progression isn’t the main reason so many people left, that means that it can’t be a mildly beneficial change?
So because LoL has many things going for it, progression can’t be a perc in any way?
So because one part of GW2 has progression, another part couldn’t benefit from it?
So because… no reasoning… it is useless?

Your words are full of holes.

LoL has horizontal progression. That must means it will be good for GW2.

Well, WoW had healers, so healers must be good for GW2.

Wait, you’re gonna say that GW2 isn’t designed to have healers. GW2 was designed to have everything unlocked from the start.

In gw1 you also had only some skills at the start and still the pvp was really good. I dont think that unlocking skills will be a big problem. However there are things that the system must have. With the starting skills/traits you should be able to make a compatitive build and it shouldnt be hard to unlock the skills you really want.

runeblade.7514:

Your words are full of holes.

LoL has horizontal progression. That must means it will be good for GW2.

Well, WoW had healers, so healers must be good for GW2.

Wait, you’re gonna say that GW2 isn’t designed to have healers. GW2 was designed to have everything unlocked from the start.

You ignored everything but one line…

Anyways so… a game can’t learn from working systems in other games because you can’t copy pasta random parts of random games into any game?
Ehh.

I mean GW2 wasn’t made for unlocks, sure, it wasn’t the developers intentions to put unlocks into the game so it was not designed with them in mind, but that doesn’t mean unlocks can’t help the game. It’s a tried and true thing, much like the trinity, it’s something you can plop into a game and has been shown again and again to work, to be a positive.

The really odd part about your comparison though is that healers, and at least more of a team focus to the point where healers where important, would have saved GW2. Monks made GW1. Without healers the game would have been kitten and GW2 never would have happened.
Sure, some people probably would have been annoyed if Anet went back to healer based combat in GW2, but hundreds of thousands would be jumping for joy.

Justin ODell.9517:

Also, this system is designed for horizontal progression. Unlocking traits, or what have you, won’t (at least shouldn’t, barring any balance issues) make you more powerful, they simply give you a wider range of builds and allow you to better tune your character to your play style.

Predicating that statement on the assumption balance issues won’t exist is faulty. It’s kind of a recipe for disaster. Sure the Skills and Combat guys can point the finger at the Balance Team and say, ‘Well it’d work fine if these guys didn’t make these broken traits’, but it doesn’t get you anywhere.

Here’s a story: At my company we have a software team. These guys are responsible for putting our requirements and design ideas into code. They’ve developed this ‘software process’ that is predicated on the notion that all the requirements are 100% perfect when they get them. If they aren’t, then it’s not their fault that things get delayed – it’s the guys who did the requirements and design. I cannot count how many times we have had delays and issues with the product, and the biggest problem is that this process is fundamentally flawed. Requirements are never perfect – never. Traits are never perfectly balanced – never.

We know that some Grandmaster traits are directly tied to imbalanced builds: Dhuumfire, Automated Response, Prismatic Understanding are just a few that come to mind. I’m sure there are others.

What if Dhuumfire was an locked trait? What if Automated Response was?

How do I downvote a dev who thinks its okay to gate content

manveruppd.7601:

Anyway, the new healing skills they introduced a few months back also had to be unlocked, and nobody complained! Why is that? Could it be because everyone had hundreds of skill points saved since launch and didn’t mind, whereas now because they’re saying they’ll also be unlockable for gold you’re all feeling their evil hands in your pockets?

Actually the reason is that most of the new heal skills were really poor so people disregarded them. How often do you see someone running one of those heal skills?

I apologize if this aspect has been discussed, but I’m also not in favor of these unlocks in sPvP. Many good reasons have been voiced, but my addition to that is having unlocks will confuse new players more than promote progression.

How will it confuse new players? I will give you just my POV, but I came to the game in September. I really got interested in sPvP in January. By then the “meta” was in full effect and learning sPvP for a class was challenging. Charging in with what you did in PvE resulted in prolific insults and very little success. To improve my game I went to these forums and looked at the posted builds (which will all change, unfortunately) and watched great players in my class (Ostrich, Caen, etc). Since you can completely duplicate the BUILD and gear it gives you a starting point to work from…after I figured out why they chose different traits I would adjust it to fit my game style and (lack of) skill. Grandmaster traits will make taking a build off the shelf to learn from it and make it virtually impossible. I know you’re not removing traits, but when the new grandmaster traits are good everyone will want them, pushing all those builds into the meta and making them inaccessible for the new player.

sPvP is complex and hard in GW2. There’s a lot to consider and that’s the depth I really appreciate as a casual hard-core player. Being able to take a build and try to play it well has been a LARGE aspect of the fun of the PvP. Progression is thru skins, rank, etc. It could be better for sure…and I would suggest more cosmetic options rather than putting a trait out of reach to new players. That will just make it MORE confusing and inaccessible for new players.

Justin ODell.9517:

Olvendred.3027:

Then why make a distinction? If PvP can happily go along with players getting 12/13 traits per line, why add an extra layer of frustration and difficulty instead of giving them 13/13 traits per line? It’s obviously nothing to do with easing new players in.

If it were only an additional trait, you’d more of a have a point, but we’re introducing this system with the future in mind. I can’t speak for the Skills and Combat teams long turn plans, but I know I would be disappointed if we stopped with just these new traits.

Olvendred.3027:

Horizontal progression is a nice concept… but it’s one that I’ve never seen mentioned on the PvP forums, only the PvE ones. If you want to get more players in to PvP, somehow I don’t think keeping back build options is the way to go about it.

Horizontal progression is very common, even in PvP games. Personally, I think one of the reason’s PvP rewards seem somewhat hollow is that we have no real progression beyond looks. I think you would be hard pressed (outside one-off games like most FPS and RTSs) to find a successful game without progression. As a PvP player, I love this change (disclaimer: I had no design input) and can’t wait for the 15th.

What about League of Legends?

Skins aka aesthetics are a massive part of the game and it’s appeals for those who aren’t LCS mega pros.

PvP rewards feel hollow due to the simple fact that you were rewarded with aesthetics and skins in PvP that are obtainable in PvE.

Do you know why many games have people who live and breathe for PvP and never stop? PvP specific rewards. Take Aion, disregarding the simple fact their PvP gear had PvP % damage/defense, PvP skins had their own unique look and were a sign that this person was a total kitten and not to be messed with.

Guild Wars 2…. I can PvP for a week straight and I might finally obtain a skin that I could just get from doing like, three dungeons.

This point was perhaps LESS relevant when there was PvP only armor, now it’s going to become a huge thing with PvE skins available in PvP.

I feel as though you guys may be hurting the sense of progression more than you’re fixing it.

tldr; PvP specific skins, weapons, armors etc. would have been the way to go, not combining PvE/PvP and trying to create a sense of progression by gating runes/traits etc.

Consider GW1’s implementation of skills – purchased through expansions. If you didn’t purchase the expansion, you didn’t get the skills. In that regard, the implementation of these new traits is a much more fair scenario.

However, with the format of PvP in GW2 compared to GW1 (especially since many of the “new” skills in GW1 were duplicates) the impact is much greater. Those players unwilling or otherwise incapable of acquiring the new traits will be at a substantial disadvantage in regard to TEAM playability. If they’re needed to play a particular build for a team, and don’t have the traits unlocked, that will indeed cause issues for gameplay.

With that being said, most of the trait implementation as of this upcoming patch are essentially duplications of already existing roles in the PvP gameplay. For instance, a mid-support bunker guard (Staff+Mace/Shield) with Pure of Voice and Altruistic Healing will be just as capable (still) of supporting a team fight as the Ele’s new Aquatic Benevolence coupled with Runes of the Monk and Sigils of Benevolence will be capable of supporting a team fight. These new traits are simply granting players an EXTENDED means of role fulfilling… This is for the hardheaded people that refuse to re-role onto a character they “don’t feel like playing… ugghhh.”

My final quip is this: There should have definitely been some forethought put into the implementation of a new reward system prior to this patch. Perhaps when the Glory system was removed? You know… the natural point at which it should have been implemented. I definitely support the concept of something similar to GW1’s Balthazar Faction – a means for pvp players to address both aesthetic and functionary concerns.