Guild Wars 2

Well said. I hope they’ll consider it, but knowing them, they don’t care about PvP. I’ve also noticed that people want to gain personal points (because even if you play horribly and don’t cap the points, they want to stand on the shrines so they can rank) and not play for the team. Instead of being a team based game (which undoubtedly Guild Wars was like) this is like a free-for-all.

Besides, if people do play well, they won’t get their gladiator rank. All in all, a flawed system. Glad someone else noticed.

They shouldn’t remove it, just refine it. I think it is a good thing to reward good players with more glory but that’s not how the system works right now. The most infuriating thing I’ve experienced in the game is when my team has won the match but the enemy team had over double the amount of glory we had.

SapphireGrace.7123:

Well said. I hope they’ll consider it, but knowing them, they don’t care about PvP.

Yay for blanket statements. Of course they don’t care about PvP. Of course…

I +1 the killing. I was going to create a REMOVE POINTS FOR KILLING PEOPLE thread, but you made this. My main complaint is noobs fight for points and are not doing actual objectives. Removing points for kills would instantly show who is being worthless to the team and who is actually useful.

hauskamies.9683:

SapphireGrace.7123:

Well said. I hope they’ll consider it, but knowing them, they don’t care about PvP.

Yay for blanket statements. Of course they don’t care about PvP. Of course…

You obviously didn’t play Guild Wars. The PvP ended up horribly maintained and broken because of their direct carelessness.

SapphireGrace.7123:

hauskamies.9683:

SapphireGrace.7123:

Well said. I hope they’ll consider it, but knowing them, they don’t care about PvP.

Yay for blanket statements. Of course they don’t care about PvP. Of course…

You obviously didn’t play Guild Wars. The PvP ended up horribly maintained and broken because of their direct carelessness.

Yes, this game is obviously Guild Wars 1. How did I not see it. Did you know Anet actually acknowledged that? With so many skills in the game they just couldn’t keep the balance. Hence GW2 has less skills.

hauskamies.9683:

SapphireGrace.7123:

hauskamies.9683:

SapphireGrace.7123:

Well said. I hope they’ll consider it, but knowing them, they don’t care about PvP.

Yay for blanket statements. Of course they don’t care about PvP. Of course…

You obviously didn’t play Guild Wars. The PvP ended up horribly maintained and broken because of their direct carelessness.

Yes, this game is obviously Guild Wars 1. How did I not see it. Did you know Anet actually acknowledged that? With so many skills in the game they just couldn’t keep the balance. Hence GW2 has less skills.

Like I said, you obviously didn’t play it. There weren’t even that many skills that were useful at all in PvP – it was all based off of the meta game, so you had very few skills in circulation, and they failed to balance even the few things that people run. Like the OP said, if they cared at all, they probably would’ve just forced people to have resurrection signets.

Player ignorance is not a problem of the developers. Do you also think they should’ve invented a “donwload the FoTM build now” button? Because obviously anyone not playing them was ruining the game. And you really think that was a big problem in RA? What about the whole monk profession? If they cared about RA, they shouldn’t have let monks play at all. And the fact that GW1 had so few legit builds is a testament to how the system just was a cluster****. I really don’t understand how that has any relevance to GW2.

hauskamies.9683:

Player ignorance is not a problem of the developers. Do you also think they should’ve invented a “donwload the FoTM build now” button? Because obviously anyone not playing them was ruining the game. And you really think that was a big problem in RA? What about the whole monk profession? If they cared about RA, they shouldn’t have let monks play at all. And the fact that GW1 had so few legit builds is a testament to how the system just was a cluster****. I really don’t understand how that has any relevance to GW2.

So you think they screw up Guild Wars PvP and then make a new game and all of a sudden care about it? And the whole Monk profession? Very few MMO’s have ever done it differently. There’s always been a healer class, broken or not. And it’s relevant because, as you said yourself, the whole system was a “clusterf***” – and you expect that to change? Right. Dream on.

I’m agree with OP here, the current system supports terrible play. It’s almost as if playing tactfully at all is a punishment. You get barely any points for staying and defending. The current system of spvp I feel is zerg or nothing. Now I can understand a bit why you don’t reward for too much defense due to camping the point to rack up points and not do anything at all. But something should at least be done to reward a bit of tactful play instead of capture, kill, revive.

I will say that I’ve gotten to a point where I almost don’t care for the points I just play tactfully yet it doesn’t stop my team from doing stupid things. I will stay and defend a point and capture points that are obviously unguarded. Stop and watch your team next time you play spvp watch how many people will leave the first point after it’s taken and go for the grey one. I immediately go for their point because 9/10 it’s unguarded.

<<The more people on the shrine the faster you cap >>

Personaly i like the current system :P
For example , less ppl at the shrine , more ppl at the search of enemy player-cap other basses-more fights-more exciting as observer to see :P

Izzi.5368:

I’m agree with OP here, the current system supports terrible play. It’s almost as if playing tactfully at all is a punishment. You get barely any points for staying and defending. The current system of spvp I feel is zerg or nothing. Now I can understand a bit why you don’t reward for too much defense due to camping the point to rack up points and not do anything at all. But something should at least be done to reward a bit of tactful play instead of capture, kill, revive.

I will say that I’ve gotten to a point where I almost don’t care for the points I just play tactfully yet it doesn’t stop my team from doing stupid things. I will stay and defend a point and capture points that are obviously unguarded. Stop and watch your team next time you play spvp watch how many people will leave the first point after it’s taken and go for the grey one. I immediately go for their point because 9/10 it’s unguarded.

I used to play smart. Defending, keeping people off points, using conditions. I was getting 120-170 glory a round. Today I gave in and switched to a DD build and travelled with the 4-7 man zerg that is the spvp team. My glory was 230-300.

I won’t be changing my style unless it comes to tournaments or the scoring system is changed to reward decent play.

I agree and disagree. When I browse these forums off and on, I see people complain that they can’t play “tactically”. This usually refers to the fact that you don’t get points for standing guard on a point. I don’t think anyone should get points for just standing there. This is PVP, and you should be moving around and PVPing.

*You get points for neutralizing a point.

You get points for capturing that point.

*You get points for moving on and participating in the PVP match.

*You get points for kills (You don’t even need a killing blow).

*You get points for killing big creatures.

Every game i play, people are constantly looking for the enemy base with the least amount of enemies waiting on it, for an easy cap. Then, we move on to the next point. The only times I see other players “playing stupid” is when they aren’t fighting on top of the capture points when near one.

And please, I don’t want to see them take away points for killing other players. This is PVP. Player VS Player. At least if I am good, I can gain glory for killing players if we lose the entire match.

I agree that match winning (and losing) should gain you more glory. And I agree that having more players on top of a point should cap it faster. But I disagree with you being able to get points for standing on top of an already capped point, and I disagree with them taking away self points and kill points.

jimmyimo.2089:

I sincerely agree that they should not give points for standing on an already capped point, but you could sketch some scenarios that might be worth a reward.

1. If you defend a cap point when it is being assaulted, and you manage to keep it.
2. If you defend a cap point when it is being assaulted, and you manage to keep it neutral for an X period of time.

1. I think you get extra points for defending a point, when you kill a player. If not, I’m mistaken.
EDIT I think you meant when it’s neutral, and not already taken by your team. In this case, I think the reward is capturing the base, if your team beats out the other team. And if you don’t cap the base, you still get points for killing some of the enemies.

2. Isn’t the reward from this just capturing the point, in the end? Or are you saying you want points for fighting on a neutral base?

Why do you need a point system? Winner gets 3 points, loser gets 1. In the end, in a team game, contribution is irrelevant.

I have never seen a team game where the scoring system was good and unexploitable. Giving more points to do A will make everybody do A. Usually they do what gives the most points irrespectively of winning, losing, what makes sense etc.

Do it like soccer. One score.

Like I said on my topic, the main problem is that the whole pvp is designed on the individual, not the team. Gw1 was the right opposite.

Hopefully, anet is gonna post their PvP blog soon, so people understand the reasoning behind the current system.

You see, OP’s complaints aren’t about sPvP, but about hot-join. Hot-join isn’t the only sPvP and sPvP isn’t balanced about hot-join.

Let’s gather all the common complaints about hot-join (not all in the OP):
- 8v8 is too zergy
- doesn’t promote strategic/team play
- autobalance sucks
- objectives don’t matter

First of all, none are relevant to tPvP – it is 5v5 (and the maps are designed/balanced around that), there is no autobalance, objectives and strategy/team play definitely do matter.

So, why not make the two modes alike? Because hot-join is there as a play/training ground. You are supposed to learn the mechanics of the game. How do I use my skills, how does capping work, what’s the map layout, how do the map gimmicks work, how does stomping/rezzing work, etc.

Winning the game is meaningless in hot-join. It’s all about learning or – quite important actually – mindless zerging. The vast majority of players wants to do just that and only that.

Hot-join is perfect for this. Now let’s imagine what would happen if you took away personal scores. Suddenly winning would matter (or do you propose flat amounts of glory/time spent? This could hardly be called an improvement for obvious reasons). And if winning mattered, this would happen:

- autobalance suddenly becoming an issue (atm you lose out on 18-36 glory max, when losing and clueless people are already kittening). Removal of autobalance would lead to even more glaring issues (team stacking, losing team leaving, etc)
- hot-join loses its relaxed environment, newbs will get flamed for mistakes

The whole point of this ultra-casual game mode is to give players a relaxed, simple environment to get their grip – then it’s time to move on (tPvP). 8v8 means loads of targets and also alleviates the individual player’s burdens – you can kitten up all day long, nobody cares – and that’s a good thing.

Why fix what isn’t broken? Hot-join is the practice area and tPvP is the real deal. Why can’t you just take it like that? Get friends to play tourneys (if none available, make new friends ingame asap and queue solo in the meantime). This is how it’s supposed to be and if you use it like that, you’ll have all your demands met and, ultimately, fun.

Now if only in tourneys they remade the reward system, so that defenders don’t get the shaft (fix: win reward outweighing individual contribution vastly in tPvP).

tldr – As stupid as this herd capping and zerging might seem to you, it’s designed like this for a reason. When you got a grip on the mechanics of the game and your class, it’s time to move on to tPvP. No need to change hot-join to become like tPvP.

Pfff. Way to go semantics xD

Why not adress the actual points I made, i.e. hot-join is for learning the game, tPvP is the actual game and the common complaints being made are void, if you look at it like this?

All the complainees are coming from a wow/swtor/whatevermmo angle, while the appropriate comparison would be fps games as 1.6 – it has worked there for way over a decade, why wouldn’t it work here?

I disagree with this posts recommendations

actually I disagree with a lot of what this guy has said.

Play more tournaments and then come back with your qq about the system because The only thing wrong with the point system right now is in the Capricorn map the bonuses are off for skirmishes and defensive.

Outside of that they should just add more points for doing individual things like destroying doors. killing individual enemy npc.

I never understood why people just don’t play the way they enjoy playing.

The way I’m seeing what you wrote is "Well, others play “wrong” and they get more points than I, why don’t I get them?".

Simple solution, play for the win like me (Yes, I actually talk in chat, call inc, defend bases) and stop caring about points and everything will be fine.

Also, what you said about killing and ressing, unfortunately, most people don’t use their brains in randoms and they can’t come to the same conclusion you came to due to it. Basically, not ANets fault, but the players.

jimmyimo.2089:

December.3714:

2. Isn’t the reward from this just capturing the point, in the end? Or are you saying you want points for fighting on a neutral base?

I meant preventing them from neutralizing by standing on it for an X period of time when you already capped it; literally, defend the shrine from neutralizing.

I have had times where I would prevent 2-3-4 people from neutralizing a shrine for at least 1-2-3 minutes, waiting for my allies to come and wipe them.
In short; they would have capped without me preventing them to cap.

That is preventing them to gain one point per two seconds for 1-2-3 minutes; not to mention it made us gain the same amount since we still had it capped cause of that. That is 60 points per minute, not 30. Cause’ they miss out on 30, and we gain 30.

Reward: None.

I get what you’re saying, but I think the game may have a hard time determining that you are helping the team, even though you aren’t killing or capping anything. Unless ANET decides that they should award you points for just doing damage in general, I don’t think you’l ever get points for this. The reward for doing that for now is they don’t cap as fast (As in you are preventing them from getting points, which in turn is still helpful to your team, so there is a reward).

To the guy suggesting to move to tspvp:
Yes you are right but I want 2 options, premade teams, pugs.
The spvp is much faster then the tspvp at the moment for rank farming.
So at the moment pugging in a tspvp what I get is, less glory/ranking points/rewards, less fun.

because fun is farming and not being more skilled than opponents. ok

btw i agree with OP, point system is not good. who kills take more points than who make win the match (i am thief i usually am the top player), but guardians who hold points 1v2 all match long take less points.
they should put all the points every single player of the team do together and share equally to the team.

The thing you are saying about points is a valid concern. In a perfect world hot-join would not yield points, only tournaments.

But if they removed the points, we’d have another complain wave inc (this is useless, why don’t i get rewarded for my efforts [yeah, srsly – people call playing games voluntarily an effort..]).

The way it is now, we have kind of a compromise with hot-join yielding points, but without them people would feel pigeonholed/shoehorned/yourfavouriteforumterm to do tPvP only and the hot-join queue would suffer as a consequence.

Hot-join yielding more glory than tourney is true – but in reality it’s just a problem if you care for cosmetics and try to powergame towards them. It doesn’t add or substract from the actual gameplay in any way. Still, I don’t understand/support it either.

If you ask me – increase the glory bonus for winning tourney games (overall and also in increasing steps for 1st,2nd,3rd round). As a bonus, it improves the current situation for the unlucky point defenders.

Regarding the rpg/fps comparison – why would you say that it’s an off comparison? Obviously I limit the comparison to the general structure of the respective games’ pvp. In your generic fps game, from the first quake to the nth iteration of CoD, you have two options:

a) casual
b) competitive

Casual is hot-join/random/public/pickup/etc. You hop in and out of games, are able to join/leave running matches without penalties, winning/losing doesn’t matter and all everyone cares about is individual performance.

This is the game mode you play, when you’re new or want to try out something or your team/competition is not available. Or maybe you just want to do some mindless zerging. It’s perfectly fine for this.

Competitive play, be it a ladder or a tournament, is where it’s at. Here you play for the win and apply strategy and tactics together with your team mates in a closed, persistent game with balanced, premade teams.

Anet seems to follow this fps system here. Winning/losing doesn’t yield you anything, besides the wimpy 18/36. We also have autobalance, you are able to join/leave running games without penalty and all everyone cares about is individual performance.

Compare it to WoW bgs. You have to queue until the system found both teams, you usually start a fresh round, the difference between winning and losing is significant and leaving goes with a penalty.

Everyone who played that or another, similar game knows how that system turns out. kittenheads, who are facing signs of a loss decide it would no longer be worth their time and go afk, other kittenheads go for the who-blames-first-is-not-responsible-approach (usually the worst players on the team) and the whole thing gets an unpleasant, unrelaxed cesspit of blaming/failing/raging. If you decide to leave, you punish your team and get punished as well.

The problem with the above system is, that random pvp is…random. Teams are not balanceable and your individual contribution might matter, but the degree to which it does, varies wildly. You get punished by other’s mistakes. Leaving and autobalance wouldn’t be feasible anymore, opening up for a plethora of other issues and, most importantly, certain people would show their online face again.

It really struck me how silent most people are in gw2 hot-join. Ofc there’s somekitten but for the most part, people just play and don’t bother with flaming – since it doesn’t matter what the team does. You don’t have to queue up for games – no waiting time. You can jump in and out of games – no penalty, because you had to take akitten or a phonecall. There’s just so much beauty in this system.

The most common mistake I see in the discussion on sPvP is people missing the big picture, i.e. how autobalance, the score system, the team size and the irrelevance of strategy all synergize together.

You can always play tPvP. All problems solved. Well, apart from the glory system. as you pointed out. But that’s another issue and should be brought up as such (and again could and probably will be solved with a fix like my above suggestion – maybe with paid tournaments).

The PvP point system at the moment encourages people to just mindlessly charge in a huge group and intentionally lose cap points so they can charge it again for extra glory points.

My suggestions

Standing at a cap point you own actually gives you points every 20 or so seconds (5-10 points) This encourages players to actually stay at a capped point, instead of just charging away.

Objective defender should be counted from a larger area than the small cap circle.

Match win bonus should be allot higher, about 3-4x bigger.

Include a penalty system for AFK:ers and rage quitters and ditch the stupid autobalance, or at least make it so that when the other team has gotten over 300 points or so the autobalance wont occure anymore. Its just stupid that players who contributed and played well are punished because of rage quitting players in the other team.

" I don’t think anyone should get points for just standing there. "
Then dont make a domination style PVP for peats sake…

to be honest, if you are going to make the PVP revolve around domination gametype, protecting a spot should give points. for your dedication to vigilance.

I don’t agree that the point system needs to be removed completely. I look a back brace on someone with bad posture. If they wear it long enough, they will begin to stand straighter on their own as their spine is trained into that position from prolonged use.

And so it is with the point system, a great training tool for getting people to PVP “correctly”. I just think we need to modify how it works. First of all remove points for kills completely UNLESS it is done within some invisible radius near a node (not just inside the capturable area) to not remove incentive for fighting, but to fight where it /matters/. Points for fighting should be seperated into two categories also 1) Dealing damage, and 2) Killing blows. I think it’s ridiculous how much focus is put on who pressed F first on a downed player.

I’m unsure if making more people cap a node faster is the right call. It will encourage a zerg mentality to capture nodes and will somewhat nullify the use of tanker builds to stall assaults on a node while reinforcements come or go to take another node in a node tradeoff.

Also, I think you should get points for staying at a node that you control. It seems in hot join PVP nobody defends anything, it’s just not worth it not only because you get nothing for it, but because the roaming zerg pile of killing blows will get you more points AND more action.

jimmyimo.2089:

How can you blame quitters for not wanting to play with people using mindless tactics? The entire point system is broke, simple. Fix that, and you fixed every thing.

Well, its not always that the other players quit because of mindless tactics, sometimes they are just outplayed and ragequit. quitting on your team should never be encouraged in a game, and at the moment the fact that there are no penalties for it breaks the game as much as the broken point system.

Guys, you don’t get it. As in WvW, the object of hotjoin PvP is zerging. That’s the only available tactic. And I agree that this completely sucks. But, the majority of the players out there love zerging. That’s the only thing they care about. Running around in a senseless blob, spamming their abilites and stomping another player with 5-6 guys to grab the most available glory points.

Defending points? Nay, not doing this. Zerging is the way to go.

I find this system and idea totally boring. Usually I am a big of PvP in MMOs, but GW2 somehow manages it in a way that I am only interested in PvE at the moment.

I must admit that changes need to be made. It’s more rewarding to cap a point and run away to cap the next, instead of defending etc.

Random arena was always just for the lulz. However we’ll be happy if they do it differently in this game, no?
Half the players in RA will always play stupid, thats a given. But now all of us are – just because winning doesn’t reward you as much as just rush to do everything that gives glory, no matter if its the wrong thing to do. And this intentional style of bad play is sticking to the masses – making them a horrible tourney players.

Ignoring the crybaby “PvP sucks Arenanet I can’t play!” posts, viable suggestions… since this is what the forums are for, not airing of grievances, especially nabbish ones that have no merit for people that actually know how to play.

Best ideas so far:

1) Faster capping the more people are standing on a node.

2) Reduction of points per kill

3) Standing on a node produces a slow ticker of glory (I would say something like 1 point every 10 seconds or so but I’d have to see it first) or better yet, a faster ticker for only when you are in combat defnding a taken node to try and avoid botting.

4) Option to hotjoin 5v5 sPvP that isn’t tournament

I think starting there would fix a few of the problems and produce a few more people willing to play a supportive role. I run a bunker spec in my tournament play because we play to win, but I have a much more offensive build for regular play because it’s easier to farm honor by killing more people.

jimmyimo.2089:

Intentional bad play is indeed extremely bad for the pvp-community, especially for future purposes.

true, but those who still play bad in future will not be good enought to take part of those purposes.