Guild Wars 2

Yes. I feel for all the warriors out there but that is a completely separate issue. Honestly I had more of a problem with quickness stomps than the DPS aspect of it.

But regarding warriors though they should re-introduce frenzy “stance dancing” they had in GW1 where stances canceled each other (so you can cancel the debuff), and the stances themselves had very low cooldowns to flip in and out of constantly. It was a beloved mechanic both by the players playing it and the ones playing against it.

Yes, but…….

Quickness should be removed full stop and the damage distributed into skills, traits etc. it’s a crappy mechanic along with confusion and retaliation.

no.

thieves and wars are now utterly useless and bunkers will rule supreme.

Burst nerf without compensations for burst classes & nerf to bunkers is FOOLISH at best.

Yes, I was surprised Quickness even made it out of the betas -it was so abused back then haha.

Valkyriez.6578:

Yes, but…….

Quickness should be removed full stop and the damage distributed into skills, traits etc. it’s a crappy mechanic along with confusion and retaliation.

I’m ecstatic that haste was nerfed (it almost renews my faith in Anet), but baking in one of the only conditional requirements for burst damage in the game into all abilities base damage is just silly. This game has a serious lack of combat depth as it is.

Yes

If quickness was not in the game at launch and they added all of the quickness skills/traits to the game with this patch, people would be telling them they’re crazy to give +50% DPS on demand.

Mrbig.8019:

no.

thieves and wars are now utterly useless and bunkers will rule supreme.

Burst nerf without compensations for burst classes & nerf to bunkers is FOOLISH at best.

D/ thieves and if I recall you play D/P can just utilize Assassin’s signet and remain relevant. In addition because of the short amount of attacks required to begin with Haste is still good for compacting damage into a smaller window for D/ thieves.
This nerf won’t remove thieves from the game.
Now that additional second on reveal however, is annoying as hell.
Nerf is more crippling to builds outside of D/ on thieves and on other professions.

Which is probably why little will be done, since they know the majority of thieves are still potent.

JS, this is not a good poll. It is based upon a voluntary response sample. These make statisticians cry.

ensoriki.5789:

Mrbig.8019:

no.

thieves and wars are now utterly useless and bunkers will rule supreme.

Burst nerf without compensations for burst classes & nerf to bunkers is FOOLISH at best.

D/ thieves and if I recall you play D/P can just utilize Assassin’s signet and remain relevant. In addition because of the short amount of attacks required to begin with Haste is still good for compacting damage into a smaller window for D/ thieves.
This nerf won’t remove thieves from the game.
Now that additional second on reveal however, is annoying as hell.
Nerf is more crippling to builds outside of D/ on thieves and on other professions.

Which is probably why little will be done, since they know the majority of thieves are still potent.

The thief is still the best burst class indeed, but it’s not the point.

Haste helped oneshotting bunker eles. thief+haste was actually the only thing preventing the ele to abuse the hell out of its cheese.

Now without haste, even without stunbreakers, they’ll have enough time to :

1. switch to water ( if they have it) and mitigate the burst
2. switch to earth and mitigate the burst
3. do both ( earth and water) and almost nullify the burst

- common thief burst , without haste, on a basilisked ele is about 11 k damage: if they switch to earth as soon as basilisk is on them, they’ll be able to reduce the 7 k backstab by 33%, so it will become a 4k backstab+ 4 k mug. Switching to water will heal them for at least 2.5k, so the effective burst will be 5.5 k damage, and yes, they can do it, since basilisk venom is 1.5 secs stun and attunements have a 0.5 secs global CD, so they can freely swap 2 attunements if they’re fast enough.

So basically, in order to burst an ele, you now need to:

1. force the ele to use all his three stunbreakers
2. bait water attunement
3. bait earth attunement

or

1. force the ele to use all his three stunbreakers
2. hope he is bad and has bad reaction times

Against other classes, it gives them enough time to react, and burst thieves are awful in every other aspect.

Currently, i would prefer a more offensive ele instead of a thief, since the ele can offer about the same burst with arcane utilities ( and i’m talking about a simple 0-20-0-20-30 build, a simple 10 point variation of the current bunker+ valkyrie amulet) and much, MUCH more to the team.

It will only be a matter of time.

edit:

altough i agree with you ( other classes and non D/ thief are hurt the most), quickness was actually the only thing able to punish an ele or an over extending bunker.

Now it’s gone.

Current balance level can’t afford a quickness nerf.

The Quickness nerf was the only good thing about this update. Quickness should been 50% from the start.

I haven’t been able to test the WvWvW side yet, as it has been bugged for hours (unable to enter queue).

@MrBig
Did you consider the attack time to go HS, f1, backstab under haste?
The 25% attack speed is still fast enough for that particular combo since D/ executes it’s main damage in 2-4 hits. The haste nerf can’t kill D/ because D/‘s hit volume is so low that it’s untouched the least. If for instance you try a gank with HS stealth We’re talking less than a second from the first hit. You won’t be able to swap two attunements between the first Basilisk to the backstab. The Initial 3 hits literally happen in less time.

I’d say if someone plays mainstream D/ the quickness nerf only a minor irritation in practical effectivity due to the low hit-volume and already fast attack speed. You’ll still be able to gap shoot.

@ shimmy

I don’t want to be a bit of a mud-slinger, I’m just deeply suspicious that this was PvP-related (after all, there are burst specs that can still kill people in pretty short order with or without quickness). I think the very telling part is this: “In PvE, the increased attack speed can trivialize a lot of content that would otherwise provide a good challenge.”
It sounds like they were miffed about people speedrunning dungeons, and decided to take an asinine route to fixing it.

Nah brah. Quickness was a universal issue that shouldn’t of made it past betas. The issue is that while we all know Quickness shouldn’t of come out in it’s current state, as profession balance is now and build diversity, there was a lot of unfortunate necessity for it to remain in that state. They’ve brought it down to more acceptable levels but the main builds that used it fell out, and you really have to consider “so what can we use”.

ensoriki.5789:

@MrBig
Did you consider the attack time to go HS, f1, backstab under haste?
The 25% attack speed is still fast enough for that particular combo since D/ executes it’s main damage in 2-4 hits. The haste nerf can’t kill D/ because D/‘s hit volume is so low that it’s untouched the least. If for instance you try a gank with HS stealth We’re talking less than a second from the first hit. You won’t be able to swap two attunements between the first Basilisk to the backstab. The Initial 3 hits literally happen in less time.

I’d say if someone plays mainstream D/ the quickness nerf only a minor irritation in practical effectivity due to the low hit-volume and already fast attack speed. You’ll still be able to gap shoot.

@ shimmy

I don’t want to be a bit of a mud-slinger, I’m just deeply suspicious that this was PvP-related (after all, there are burst specs that can still kill people in pretty short order with or without quickness). I think the very telling part is this: “In PvE, the increased attack speed can trivialize a lot of content that would otherwise provide a good challenge.”
It sounds like they were miffed about people speedrunning dungeons, and decided to take an asinine route to fixing it.

Nah brah. Quickness was a universal issue that shouldn’t of made it past betas. The issue is that while we all know Quickness shouldn’t of come out in it’s current state, as profession balance is now and build diversity, there was a lot of unfortunate necessity for it to remain in that state. They’ve brought it down to more acceptable levels but the main builds that used it fell out, and you really have to consider “so what can we use”.

i’m talking about the hastened steal-backstastab + HS combo from stealth. The unfamous “macro” ( that can be done even without macroing, but whatever).

Now the ele will have enough time to react, popping a stunbreaker or switching to earth/water, mitigating the burst in any case ( if i were an ele without stunbreakers, i would be ready to swap to earth/water as soon as i can, since i’m EXPECTING the burst, at least if i’m a decent player).

Before, they didn’t have the time to do so. Now with quickness nerf, they’ll be able to, making them even stronger to bring down.

I agree quickness was cheesy and needed a nerf, but current balance can’t afford a quickness nerf, because the thief is basically “the only counter” to an ele.

No, not happy with it from the warrior perspective.

Mrbig.8019:

Now the ele will have enough time to react

So, you’re saying it was ok to kill a bunker faster than a human can physically react to the attack?

From this point forward, all of your opinions are invalid.

No.

Punishing burst without a more reliable means of defeating a bunker is not balance. If anything it sounds like a knee-jerk reaction.

Caffynated.5713:

Mrbig.8019:

Now the ele will have enough time to react

So, you’re saying it was ok to kill a bunker faster than a human can physically react to the attack?

From this point forward, all of your opinions are invalid.

It seems you don’t understand.

“current balance level can’t afford a quickness nerf”.

it means that till bunker eles can facetank 2/3 people and leave, heal, come back at will ( and till bunkering is still so strong overall), this nerf will simply get balance WORSE.

Or rather, now 4 eles+ guardian comps will become viable.

Mrbig.8019:

Caffynated.5713:

Mrbig.8019:

Now the ele will have enough time to react

So, you’re saying it was ok to kill a bunker faster than a human can physically react to the attack?

From this point forward, all of your opinions are invalid.

It seems you don’t understand.

“current balance level can’t afford a quickness nerf”.

it means that till bunker eles can facetank 2/3 people and leave, heal, come back at will ( and till bunkering is still so strong overall), this nerf will simply get balance WORSE.

Or rather, now 4 eles+ guardian comps will become viable.

I main an ele and I agree that bunker eles need a nerf, but leaving in one grossly OP mechanic just because there’s another OP mechanic is not solid logic. Hopefully by moving away from having ludicrous burst damage as the only way to take down a bunker the devs will start focusing on either toning bunkers themselves down or adjusting things that are more specific to bunker countering like boon stripping to be more practical.

yes,
it needed a nerf, thats clear.
but they did’nt compensate and have ruined warrior.

Oh…almost forgot, pew pew nab rangers to the ground finally, now you have to do something else than quickness autoattack 24/7. Feel bad for warriors btw this ruins the only viable build they have atm..

Archaon.6245:

Oh…almost forgot, pew pew nab rangers to the ground finally, now you have to do something else than quickness autoattack 24/7. Feel bad for warriors btw this ruins the only viable build they have atm..

dunno about you, but now thieves are almost as useless as warriors.

Now all we’ll see will be eles-guards-enges-rangers with few mesmers and necros here and there.

Nah, i think we’ll go with 4 eles+ guard teams.

Balance has never reached such negative climax in this game, for the first time i really don’t feel any desire to Pvp simply to get dominated by eles laughing at my “assassin signet burst LOLOLOLOLOL”.

Yes. It was necessary to do so because when/if this game becomes esport and you observe a game where (for example) thieves oneshot players without a chance to react, it gives a bad image of the game balance. I’m not saying thieves can’t oneshot people anymore but because this haste nerf is global amongst every class, I accept it.

Long term: Yes. Burst and bunkers builds are both too powerful. This tones down burst to where new players have a chance to survive before being insta-killed.

Short term: No. They did not address bunker builds. They also did not address weapon sets that relied on haste.

I can’t imagine any seasoned pvper will be happy with ANets treatment of the warrior in this patch.

‘Nerf bunkers’ is not going to address this, nor is improving base damage on the warrior. Frenzy added another dimension to what was and is a class in need of more interesting dynamics.

‘Player reaction’ stuff doesn’t even apply at higher tourney level. I understand this is catering for newer players, but lets just say I’m glad I’ve been practising Ele.

Yes. fixing broken mechanics is the way to go and will be a huge positive for the game in the long run.

I luv the changes to warrior. Makes them so viable and overpowered now.

Please post your banner rampage kick dual sword warrior builds someone, I really feel this is the build that will totally own in pvp.

Mrbig.8019:

Caffynated.5713:

Mrbig.8019:

Now the ele will have enough time to react

So, you’re saying it was ok to kill a bunker faster than a human can physically react to the attack?

From this point forward, all of your opinions are invalid.

It seems you don’t understand.

“current balance level can’t afford a quickness nerf”.

it means that till bunker eles can facetank 2/3 people and leave, heal, come back at will ( and till bunkering is still so strong overall), this nerf will simply get balance WORSE.

Or rather, now 4 eles+ guardian comps will become viable.

No matter how you slice it, I would much rather fight a bunker Ele face tanking me then the quickness inspired rubbish that thieves had. You know why? At least you get to fight the Ele.

50% nerf wasnt near enough. This game has infinitely more chance of achieving a more balanced state (current state is actually pretty good IMO) without quickness in the game.

Add that to scrub mechanics like Confusion and Retaliation. Way to go there. I do t care too much, just hate passive mechanics that help bad players more than anything.

Valkyriez.6578:

Mrbig.8019:

Caffynated.5713:

Mrbig.8019:

Now the ele will have enough time to react

So, you’re saying it was ok to kill a bunker faster than a human can physically react to the attack?

From this point forward, all of your opinions are invalid.

It seems you don’t understand.

“current balance level can’t afford a quickness nerf”.

it means that till bunker eles can facetank 2/3 people and leave, heal, come back at will ( and till bunkering is still so strong overall), this nerf will simply get balance WORSE.

Or rather, now 4 eles+ guardian comps will become viable.

No matter how you slice it, I would much rather fight a bunker Ele face tanking me then the quickness inspired rubbish that thieves had. You know why? At least you get to fight the Ele.

50% nerf wasnt near enough. This game has infinitely more chance of achieving a more balanced state (current state is actually pretty good IMO) without quickness in the game.

Add that to scrub mechanics like Confusion and Retaliation. Way to go there. I do t care too much, just hate passive mechanics that help bad players more than anything.

+1

And I actually don’t get why people qq about warrior. Pre-patch every1 said 100b combo isn’t usefull because it’s to easy to dodge… And now every wari complains about broken 100b combo???? Btw. frenzy 60s cooldown, 100b 8s cooldown so you used it for every 4th 100b (calculated as you wouldn’t be spamming it all day…

Beside this the haste nerf improved a lot. Its not only a nerf to the attack speed but also to haste stomp/ress, that’s pretty nice imho…

And try condis to take down bunkers (necro anyone). It’s a safer kill than a potential 1shot combo which often ends up in guardian blocks…

jokitten390:

+1

And I actually don’t get why people qq about warrior. Pre-patch every1 said 100b combo isn’t usefull because it’s to easy to dodge… And now every wari complains about broken 100b combo???? Btw. frenzy 60s cooldown, 100b 8s cooldown so you used it for every 4th 100b (calculated as you wouldn’t be spamming it all day…

Beside this the haste nerf improved a lot. Its not only a nerf to the attack speed but also to haste stomp/ress, that’s pretty nice imho…

And try condis to take down bunkers (necro anyone). It’s a safer kill than a potential 1shot combo which often ends up in guardian blocks…

Cuz, you know, quickness combos was only valuable thing for warrior in tPvP, and GS 100b build was best option to keep up in sPvP on decent (not OP, great or good, just decent) level. Now it’s removed completely.
May be you show us some secret warrior l33t build, so we all can stop qq?

Frenzy change isn’t going to ruin warriors.

It’s 1 extra second on your 100b skill, that you can use once every 60 seconds.

Overly dramatic much.

Rednik.3809:

jokitten390:

+1

And I actually don’t get why people qq about warrior. Pre-patch every1 said 100b combo isn’t usefull because it’s to easy to dodge… And now every wari complains about broken 100b combo???? Btw. frenzy 60s cooldown, 100b 8s cooldown so you used it for every 4th 100b (calculated as you wouldn’t be spamming it all day…

Beside this the haste nerf improved a lot. Its not only a nerf to the attack speed but also to haste stomp/ress, that’s pretty nice imho…

And try condis to take down bunkers (necro anyone). It’s a safer kill than a potential 1shot combo which often ends up in guardian blocks…

Cuz, you know, quickness combos was only valuable thing for warrior in tPvP, and GS 100b build was best option to keep up in sPvP on decent (not OP, great or good, just decent) level. Now it’s removed completely.
May be you show us some secret warrior l33t build, so we all can stop qq?

As I said before they were crap pre-patch. It’s a bit evil but: A healthy change for the whole pvp >>>>> a little nerf to an allrdy useless class imho. Of course it’s kittenty for warriors but I guess now they can really hope for a big change with the next patch, if not, only 7 classes left to balance!

Yes, timewarp needed some nerf.
For frenzy they need actually to remove quickness fully and include 100% faster movement into the description of frenzy. So it’s staying the same skill as before the patch.
In general I didn’t expect big changes, as I focus more on leaderboards and CA’s.

i have no idea
because i haven’t played in months
bam! eat it

Yes!

I really like the nerf.
I’m writing this from my phone and somehow it won’t reply, so this is for the discussion about thieve burst: I’ve never ever felt that haste was viable for thieves at all, not even before the patch. We outshine everyone with our superior mobility and dodges. Using haste you remove this almost completely and you are sure to be downed in an instant. Sure you can take down a bunker really fast, but what’s going to happen when his teammates arrive (which they will, if they know how to play)? You don’t have any dodges left and only little initiative because you burn a lot of when using haste.
Signet > Haste imo. Offers so much more to your build.

Mrbig.8019:

Archaon.6245:

Oh…almost forgot, pew pew nab rangers to the ground finally, now you have to do something else than quickness autoattack 24/7. Feel bad for warriors btw this ruins the only viable build they have atm..

dunno about you, but now thieves are almost as useless as warriors.

Now all we’ll see will be eles-guards-enges-rangers with few mesmers and necros here and there.

Nah, i think we’ll go with 4 eles+ guard teams.

Balance has never reached such negative climax in this game, for the first time i really don’t feel any desire to Pvp simply to get dominated by eles laughing at my “assassin signet burst LOLOLOLOLOL”.

Still can do something with backstab build, yep bit harder but still viable..but for sure thief wasn’t a must have before and now there are even more better options around (Probably the 4 secs revealed is what hurts the most for bs thieves imo, less backstabs and more dmg taken)
We used to run 2 eles…now we can run even one more, one guardian and one mesmer…profit. Warriors were already a secondary choice, now they totally lost their job in tpvp…

No, but they made my haste skill on thief a second longer so I’m fine. :P

Cadion.9027:

No, but they made my haste skill on thief a second longer so I’m fine. :P

No need for a long quickness on a burst thief, you just need to send out as much dmg as possible in a really short time…unless you want to just spam hs……and i hope you don’t…

i wqas hoping in a pw thief revamp…nvm i will wait for the next patch playing other games

Shukran.4851:

i wqas hoping in a pw thief revamp…nvm i will wait for the next patch playing other games

Pw is now definately six feet under just near hb wars…

Shukran.4851:

i wqas hoping in a pw thief revamp…nvm i will wait for the next patch playing other games

Still trying to make it work. Realized for what I want to do with my Swords now means essentially the inability to solo que if trying to be potent. Unless I can make up damage with crit venoms and get the extra 300 or so + conditions to make up for anything. Normal venom share works still but again desires more coordination than normal solo join Q_Q. I’m gonna make it. If you want to burst as a non dagger thief now you are better off asking an elementalist for their FGS or lightning hammer lol…

ensoriki.5789:

Shukran.4851:

i wqas hoping in a pw thief revamp…nvm i will wait for the next patch playing other games

Still trying to make it work. Realized for what I want to do with my Swords now means essentially the inability to solo que if trying to be potent. Unless I can make up damage with crit venoms and get the extra 300 or so + conditions to make up for anything. Normal venom share works still but again desires more coordination than normal solo join Q_Q. I’m gonna make it. If you want to burst as a non dagger thief now you are better off asking an elementalist for their FGS or lightning hammer lol…

Yesterday I was testing pw against npcs and someone saw me and gave me compliments (I hope) because I was playing smart instead of brainless as cg d / d thieves.
shame that the players are not as stupid as the npc

i think it would be fine overall if the negative sides to quickness would change too..

No.

I think it’s exactly the kind of balancing they should be extremely careful with because it globally affects classes in different ways: e.g. complaints about Warrior’s reliance on haste to be viable.
While high crit builds such as thieves that can run the sigil (+ trait) have RNG haste and that nerf was welcome.
The pet swapping/stomping Rangers use is another example of a positive nerf, because it was a cheap, unavoidable way to snowball of the already weak downed state of certain classes.

The best way to nerf quickness is tweaking the drawbacks already linked to the skills (no healing for Rangers) seperately for each class and taking away RNG elements that are impossible to counter with skill.

Shukran.4851:

Yesterday I was testing pw against npcs and someone saw me and gave me compliments (I hope) because I was playing smart instead of brainless as cg d / d thieves.
shame that the players are not as stupid as the npc

I was there, doing the exact same thing with my pistol whip yesterday to see how things would play: turns out, even the NPCs aren’t dumb enough to sit there while I pistol whip them 50% slower :/
Sword thieves are fun; I hope some creative player can find a way to still make them viable.

Kitcat.1739:

Shukran.4851:

Yesterday I was testing pw against npcs and someone saw me and gave me compliments (I hope) because I was playing smart instead of brainless as cg d / d thieves.
shame that the players are not as stupid as the npc

I was there, doing the exact same thing with my pistol whip yesterday to see how things would play: turns out, even the NPCs aren’t dumb enough to sit there while I pistol whip them 50% slower :/
Sword thieves are fun; I hope some creative player can find a way to still make them viable.

The thing with players moving out of the pistol whip, isn’t that the same issue sword mesmers are facing? All mesmers still use sword though.
I really don’t see it as a problem, because: It still offers a lot of CC and it’s limited how far away a player can move if that player still wants to stay on the point. When that’s said, you should never go for S/P if you want to play burst. It’s for CC and venoms.

No – because it doesn’t effect every class, and the ones it does effect aren’t even effected to the same degree.

Ranger has perhaps been effected the most by this nerf – there is a post in the ranger forum that breaks down the amount of time any profession can have quickness up for and rangers is the highest.

I can confirm that it has severely weakened us – i regularly duel the same people, people running the same builds that i could beat 100% or 50/50 last week i now can barely damage.

It makes a massive difference because we time all out skills to make the most of quickness. With nerfed Quickness they simply don’t land anymore, they are too easily avoided.

Briix.6872:

The thing with players moving out of the pistol whip, isn’t that the same issue sword mesmers are facing? All mesmers still use sword though.
I really don’t see it as a problem, because: It still offers a lot of CC and it’s limited how far away a player can move if that player still wants to stay on the point. When that’s said, you should never go for S/P if you want to play burst. It’s for CC and venoms.

Doesn’t the venom build need good team communication to really shine, though? Sadly, if that’s the case, I don’t think that’d be the build for me. I might look into the D/P thief…or just make some ugly hybrid whose only advantage is that nobody knows what it is I’m trying to do. :P

Yes, but I miss swinging my weapon like a madman during quickness… now it’s half the speed and not as fun.

But in seriousness, bunkers should have been toned down along with this nerf, and quickness penalties should’ve been adjusted as well.

nooooooooooo nononononono

Kitcat.1739:

Briix.6872:

The thing with players moving out of the pistol whip, isn’t that the same issue sword mesmers are facing? All mesmers still use sword though.
I really don’t see it as a problem, because: It still offers a lot of CC and it’s limited how far away a player can move if that player still wants to stay on the point. When that’s said, you should never go for S/P if you want to play burst. It’s for CC and venoms.

Doesn’t the venom build need good team communication to really shine, though? Sadly, if that’s the case, I don’t think that’d be the build for me. I might look into the D/P thief…or just make some ugly hybrid whose only advantage is that nobody knows what it is I’m trying to do. :P

Venom Share build does, yeah. You could also just go Forever Alone and bring Thieve’s Guild, Ogre runes and Ambush and share venoms within your own little army. Not super viable, but can be very fun to try.

with no quickness involved:

- mesmer: 2 sword, proc immobilize meanwhile he use blurred frenzy. let’s say u are immobilized for entire duration (alomst full damage taken)

- thief: 2 sword, proc immobilize, then use pw which stun opponent dor a 1/2sec afaik then after a short pause it does the combo. basically the time immobilize expire u do a 1/2sec stun which extend the cc duration but does almost no damage(just spam dodge and when stun ends u are free from damage).

hence , pw alone is almost useless against a normal player and above.