Poll: Reduction of burst/bunker?
I don’t like at all the bunker system ( although linked with the capping system which allows one guy to hold it as long as he is alive).
However, if you remove one, the other one will be better and more used. If you remove both, there will be " less used " builds today that will become meta tomorrow, and it will be more or less the same. Changing the capping system would solve everything in my opinion.
How would you change the capping system then?
The problem I have with burst is not its damage, but how easily it can be applied. It doesn’t require team spike preparation most of the times, and in a team based game, it is just a terrible design decision in my opinion. Every class currently has quite a lot of hard cc abilities, along with roots, and in that kind of environment, it is normal that burst builds are much more effective than balanced, or tanky-dps builds in most cases. Reducing the damage won’t solve the problem. Same thing with bunker builds.
Changing the game mode would introduce much more viable builds, and I think they’ve gone wrong way with forcing capture the point, that most people don’t really find interesting, as it’s very repetitive by its definition. Hard for people to watch and understand what’s going on, and what tactics are being used too. If you remember, there were more people doing holiday PvP game modes than in the mists, which does send a message that people just don’t find juggling between nodes and camping on them that interesting.
Same than GW1 capping : the most you are on it, the quickest you cap it. If you’re 2v1, you will cap it slowly, if you’re 5v1 you cap it really quick, if you’re 3v2 you cap it slowly, etc…
Matchs then might be more dynamic and not about 3 defensive players just standing on shrines. But that’s my opinion only…
The only bunker that makes ppl go thief atm is the s/d bunker ele. If it is nerfed(which it likely will be) thief will be optional
Crs Helseth, Mesmer for Team Curse
bunkers would be just fine, another variation of a spec, if it wasnt for stupid conquest. if we went for team DM, we wouldnt have to deal with this burst/bunker crap. it would all work nicely.
I’m in favor of reducing both bunker and burst builds. I believe adding more boon removal will already deal with a lot of bunker problems and the thief, a class that could potentially steal boons etc. with a bit of fixing, would have more flexibility in builds because besides d/d, boon stealing builds would become viable as well.
To reduce burst, some number tweaking could prolly do the trick.
Dius Vanguard [DiVa]
Gandara – WvW Warrior
Gandara – WvW Warrior
been saying this for ages.
Burst and bunker should be toned down ( along with AoE damage), and classes should be tweaked accordingly.
For example, classes like the thief don’t have very solid sustained DPS builds ( i’m biased anyway), since we sacrifice lot of damage to go sustained.
Even more , some sets are kinda useless ( due to overnerfing) and the only decent AoE damage we have comes from the shortbow ( which needs lot of pow/crit to deal good damage).
Overall, i agree on toning down burst and bunkers, but classes should be changed accordingly: toning down burst and bunkers without changing much, in the current meta, would only become a valkyrie D/D eles spam fest + guardian spam fest ( the only classes capable to have powerful balanced builds with tons of toughness and healing).
bunker reduction yes
burst reduction no
bunker reduction yes
burst reduction no
And then you’d probably end up with heavy burst teams running mindlessly killing each other all over the map, which would be even worse than it is now. Just like nerva already said, and me for that matter, the real problem is game mode, not those builds, although a few tweaks should certainly be applied.
Yes, both Bunker and Burst need to be reduced to create more dynamic fights.
Bunker and Burst wouldn’t be so bad if the classes were more traditional (as in a healing class to counter Bursty builds and a class able to strip Boons to counter Bunker builds) but that’s not the design so the two elements have become stronger than they should be.
I don’t see how changing the game mode would make Bunker and Burst builds less viable, so anyone with that train of thought, enlighten me as to how that would work.
Yes, both Bunker and Burst need to be reduced to create more dynamic fights.
Bunker and Burst wouldn’t be so bad if the classes were more traditional (as in a healing class to counter Bursty builds and a class able to strip Boons to counter Bunker builds) but that’s not the design so the two elements have become stronger than they should be.
I don’t see how changing the game mode would make Bunker and Burst builds less viable, so anyone with that train of thought, enlighten me as to how that would work.
Changing a game mode would not make bunkers and burst any less viable, however, it would most certainly make some other builds that aren’t utilized in current game mode more viable.
The thing is, having a bunker is currently mandatory, as their main purpose is to hold the node as much as possible, until your team mates arrive. Having no nodes wouldn’t make bunker less viable, as it can certainly help in team fights in a lot of situations, but it probably wouldn’t be mandatory to take one. Instead, you could go for banner warrior for example, traited for regeneration and team support(just giving an example here), or you could go for chilling and pulling necro, you could go for team stealth, trying to attack your opponents from behind, or something of that nature.
You wouldn’t be pigeonholed to 1 or 2 team comps, like you are seeing these days, and as I said above, it would introduce some new tactics, new profession roles, a lot more viable builds(be it profession, or team builds), but it also wouldn’t remove a role of bunker or burst professions, just place them on equal footing with other builds that are currently not working.
In short, it would allow more customization and experimentation. Sure, some builds would still be more preferable than others, but new game mode would still allow for more customization than current one, utilization of different tactics, instead of running between points and standing on them.
It would also be much interesting to watch, and more appealing to larger masses, and it’s a fact that people in general don’t like to watch conquest based modes. Look at other, most popular e-sports. Everybody likes to see some surprising turnarounds, different tactics utilization, and good combat in general.
They changed 5v5 to 8v8 for new players. So they could easily fit in while not kittening up for the team, and learn while playing.
But I can imagine that they will get owned by bunkers and bursts a lot. More because its a zerg than the actual players.
This game was balanced around 5v5, a lot of work went in the creation of these maps, and the balance of both classes and maps. And just before release they changed team sizes to 8.
I’m playing free tourneys for most of the time. And when I play a hotjoin match it actually feels like a brainless zerg.
One for all, and all for glory!
I’d like to see burst require more setup than it currently has. A player shouldn’t be able to do a burst from complete surprise like warriors and thieves do. Mesmers at least have to set up by getting out three illusions, so a player knows that a burst could be coming soon. This is how it should be. With warriors or thieves, they can hit you before you even know they are there.
(edited by DaShi.1368)
I am wondering what the community feels about the current status of burst and bunker builds. Should either one or both be reduced or kept as is?
Some thoughts:
- Will it make balanced/support builds more rewarding and give more build flexibility ?
- Will it reduce “instagib” builds and make battles more dynamic?
- Will it reduce near unkillable builds?- Will it affect the current meta negatively?
- Will it impact balance negatively from a tpvp perspective?
- Could reduction in burst could result in a lower standard for bunker builds?
- Will it result in unnecessary prolonged fights?What do you think?
Your problem is logic, you don’t understand cause and effect.
If they nerfed the insane burst one class can deal out insta killing just about everyone in the game, you would watch 95% of the bunker builds disappear in the blink of an eye.
The truth is a bunker isn’t built that way to survive 3-4 players lol no they could easily do that without specing so deep into defensive traits. They build that way to survive 1 thief+ whatever else remove the thief you remove the need for what seems like unkillable bunkers to everyone else but thief.
The only way to get rid of the bunker metagame is to introduce a new game mode. Conquest by design is tailor-made for bunkers.
I’d like to see burst require more setup than it currently has. A player shouldn’t be able to do a burst from complete surprise like warriors and thieves do. Mesmers at least have to set up by getting out three illusions, so a player knows that a burst could be coming soon. This is how it should be. With warriors or thieves, they can hit you before you even know they are there.
Warriors have to charge you in plain sight so it’s somewhat easier to avoid. Thieves are much nastier as they can just teleport to your location. I do agree with your point though.
I don’t see how changing the game mode would make Bunker and Burst builds less viable, so anyone with that train of thought, enlighten me as to how that would work.
What use would there be for bunkers in death match, for example?
People also tend to forget that you can claim a node in conquest without having to kill the bunker, will well timed pulls or knockbacks. The problem in this respect is how long stability applies to a guardian compared to other professions. Engineers would have a much bigger place in the current meta if the duration or CD of “Stand Your Ground” was looked at closer.
Don’t get me wrong, if you give me 30 seconds or so, I can take the point from the Guardian, but you don’t have that long in tPvP before their team arrives.
I guess what I’m saying is, bunkers are only a problem because of Guardians, and Guardians are only a problem because of stability, to me. But this is also from an Engineer’s perspective, and there isn’t very many of those flying around right now so it might not carry much weight. But if you reduced duration and CD of stability on Guardian bunkers, all that defense wouldn’t mean as much in conquest when they can’t stand on the node long enough to keep it with all that defense.
Jumzi (Ranger), Tarnished Coast
at this point i feel we all just need to boycott conquest until they roll out a new game mode. even discussing conquest meta makes me nauseous.
People also tend to forget that you can claim a node in conquest without having to kill the bunker, will well timed pulls or knockbacks. The problem in this respect is how long stability applies to a guardian compared to other professions. Engineers would have a much bigger place in the current meta if the duration or CD of “Stand Your Ground” was looked at closer.
Don’t get me wrong, if you give me 30 seconds or so, I can take the point from the Guardian, but you don’t have that long in tPvP before their team arrives.
I guess what I’m saying is, bunkers are only a problem because of Guardians, and Guardians are only a problem because of stability, to me. But this is also from an Engineer’s perspective, and there isn’t very many of those flying around right now so it might not carry much weight. But if you reduced duration and CD of stability on Guardian bunkers, all that defense wouldn’t mean as much in conquest when they can’t stand on the node long enough to keep it with all that defense.
I can easily take a point from a guardian (without killing him) when I play warrior, but obviously the team will always arrive before that happens.
at this point i feel we all just need to boycott conquest until they roll out a new game mode. even discussing conquest meta makes me nauseous.
Yes, let’s boycott conquest and play another mode instead… oh wait!
People also tend to forget that you can claim a node in conquest without having to kill the bunker, will well timed pulls or knockbacks. The problem in this respect is how long stability applies to a guardian compared to other professions. Engineers would have a much bigger place in the current meta if the duration or CD of “Stand Your Ground” was looked at closer.
Don’t get me wrong, if you give me 30 seconds or so, I can take the point from the Guardian, but you don’t have that long in tPvP before their team arrives.
I guess what I’m saying is, bunkers are only a problem because of Guardians, and Guardians are only a problem because of stability, to me. But this is also from an Engineer’s perspective, and there isn’t very many of those flying around right now so it might not carry much weight. But if you reduced duration and CD of stability on Guardian bunkers, all that defense wouldn’t mean as much in conquest when they can’t stand on the node long enough to keep it with all that defense.
BTW folks this character is really Jonathan sharp in disguise thats why his tagline says this class, that class and 95% of his posts are defending thieves.
It’s also why all flagrant TOS abuses go ignored meanwhile anyone who disagree’s with him gets banned.
But when the next patch nerfs stability on guardians and ignores the kitten amount of thief OP, tell me I’m wrong.
Notice this post said burst or bunker and it only addressed the most annoying class for a thief to kill lol.
(edited by Fellknight.4820)
I don’t see how changing the game mode would make Bunker and Burst builds less viable, so anyone with that train of thought, enlighten me as to how that would work.
What use would there be for bunkers in death match, for example?
In a game that relies on self heals moreso than healing others, bunkers ability to stand their ground would still make them pretty strong in a DM mode. No trinity in the classes means that going Glass Cannon is risky due to focusing/spikes so you’d probably see compositions that are heavy on Bunkers while everyone else goes with varying ratios of Damage to Survivability that will still be fairly even. I can’t say for sure but while there will be more variance in builds for certain classes, softer classes will even less viability because they can’t survive long. This is assuming a 1 kill and out DM mode.
i’m also in favor of a more balanced build meta
Powerr
PZ
PZ
I am wondering what the community feels about the current status of burst and bunker builds. Should either one or both be reduced or kept as is?
Some thoughts:
- Will it make balanced/support builds more rewarding and give more build flexibility ?
- Will it reduce “instagib” builds and make battles more dynamic?
- Will it reduce near unkillable builds?- Will it affect the current meta negatively?
- Will it impact balance negatively from a tpvp perspective?
- Could reduction in burst could result in a lower standard for bunker builds?
- Will it result in unnecessary prolonged fights?What do you think?
Your problem is logic, you don’t understand cause and effect.
If they nerfed the insane burst one class can deal out insta killing just about everyone in the game, you would watch 95% of the bunker builds disappear in the blink of an eye.
The truth is a bunker isn’t built that way to survive 3-4 players lol no they could easily do that without specing so deep into defensive traits. They build that way to survive 1 thief+ whatever else remove the thief you remove the need for what seems like unkillable bunkers to everyone else but thief.
What a constructive way to comment my post. I think your logic is quite one-dimensional. First, I believe your logic would only apply to hotjoin pvp due to the capping system. Second, I am not only talking about reducing bunkers. I was ASKING the community on their thoughts on reducing one OR both. By your logic, as I read your post, reducing burst (which you identify as thief) will remove the issues with bunkers. Excactly that was part of my question.
It seems many agree that the capping system is fault. Could one imagine that bunkers would become obsolete if there were no capping system?
no, bunkers would still have a role in TDM. they could build for support/sustain/control. theyre just making conquest ridiculous atm.
Maybe there should just be more viable builds for all the classes instead of “you have one job” (literally).
For example, make support thieves viable.
Shadow refuge healing allies and combo fielding blindness with a blast finisher.
Shadow Shot/Shadow Stab. What was the role of this ability what was it’s real purpose, seriously.
Sword abilities; Infiltrator’s Strike, and Flanking Strike. Flanking Strike can do decent damage when you are built as a glass cannon but not otherwise. down side is the ability is easily dodged even though it is a dodge within itself. Infiltrator’s Strike is a good ability when coupled with Pistol Whip or used to kite someone with Dancing Dagger. However it can sometimes bug out and the immobilize won’t go off.
Other classes, have tons of builds that work great in hot-join because there are players that are new to the game. I don’t know them all but I can name some (these are obviously not tPvP viable)
Power necro build. Using http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Undeath for life force generation to stay alive as much as you can in death shroud. Use Lich Form in team fights and do as much damage spamming 1.
Thief Support build/Dodge Thief. This is my personal build that I like. Simple and to the point, you need endurance regen, toughness and vitality (sort of). I used http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Agility it removes 1 condition from me and nearby allies.These are the traits. http://en.gw2codex.com/build/generator/ . You can easily mess around with deadly arts and critical strikes I have several times.
Ele Glass Cannon Burst. I know this build was first viable but now everyone is running with ele bunkers. Since this was a build that was earlier I don’t remember it too well but it’ts role is simple, you are a roamer and if you can try and get the bunker of his point. As an ele its easier than a thief because you have KBs (it’s easier to get him OFF the point not to kill).
That’s pretty much all I know, I do know there are more out there like Hiba’s Glass cannon engi build but I don’t even know if people use it in tPvP, or the traits or anything.
I just want more versatility within the classes and diversity, if that’s too much to ask for, that at least have 3 different viable builds for tPvP. I rarely see condi thieves anymore. : /
“You’re either a Noob or a Pro your entire life, that’s life”
IGN – Kinjax // World – Anvil Rock
IGN – InTheseDays // World – Anvil Rock
IGN – Kinjax // World – Anvil Rock
IGN – InTheseDays // World – Anvil Rock
I don’t see how changing the game mode would make Bunker and Burst builds less viable, so anyone with that train of thought, enlighten me as to how that would work.
What use would there be for bunkers in death match, for example?
In a game that relies on self heals moreso than healing others, bunkers ability to stand their ground would still make them pretty strong in a DM mode. No trinity in the classes means that going Glass Cannon is risky due to focusing/spikes so you’d probably see compositions that are heavy on Bunkers while everyone else goes with varying ratios of Damage to Survivability that will still be fairly even. I can’t say for sure but while there will be more variance in builds for certain classes, softer classes will even less viability because they can’t survive long. This is assuming a 1 kill and out DM mode.
You still need to be able to deal damage, which bunkers cannot. Balanced specs would likely dominate DM.
I don’t see how changing the game mode would make Bunker and Burst builds less viable, so anyone with that train of thought, enlighten me as to how that would work.
What use would there be for bunkers in death match, for example?
In a game that relies on self heals moreso than healing others, bunkers ability to stand their ground would still make them pretty strong in a DM mode. No trinity in the classes means that going Glass Cannon is risky due to focusing/spikes so you’d probably see compositions that are heavy on Bunkers while everyone else goes with varying ratios of Damage to Survivability that will still be fairly even. I can’t say for sure but while there will be more variance in builds for certain classes, softer classes will even less viability because they can’t survive long. This is assuming a 1 kill and out DM mode.
You still need to be able to deal damage, which bunkers cannot. Balanced specs would likely dominate DM.
Coordinated spikes take care of the damage.
if you could heal more than once every min then bunker builds wouldn’t be that big of a issue.
I think adding some non-objective game modes for fun would definitely add some variety and fun to the game, but in terms of competitive format? I remain cynical unless convinced otherwise.
2v2 or 3v3 arena might be interesting, but traditional 5v5 arena(1 death and you’re out) would be tough to balance. Conquest is 5v5 but forces players in varying levels of player number engagements as determined by their role or how the game is progressing. The impact of abilities like Time Warp and rez signets is significant, almost too important, but 5v5 arena would force these abilities to be too dis proportionally powerful. There is not enough sustain and AOE is simply too strong to make TDM interesting without any other stipulations.
I’m not sure the game is structured to support non-objective based gameplay.
Cretius-Elementalist
Condiments-Thief
Condiments-Thief