Guild Wars 2

Justin ODell.9517:

I’m really curious as to how you guys are figuring out if the other team is a pre-made. We don’t tell you, and looking at the data there are very few party rosters compared to solo.

Is it just match quality being bad? Are you just recognizing player names?

Why are you asking this question though, currently and apparently in Leagues, there is only 1 queue where both teams and soloers share. Is it a surprise that premades and soloq players will clash? Do you recognize the concerns players have regarding putting these two in the same queue?

My take is that itll hinder good soloq players when they reach a certain point in Leagues, where they’ll be more often facing premades that are not doing too good vs other premades in higher league. That will put many soloq players off, as many dont have time to play with teams at set times, yet they want to advance as they individually are good.

You could even keep it as one “ranked” button if you want, just force 5 parties ALWAYS go against 5, and solos+duos go against eachother.

If you try to queue with 3 or 4 players in party, send popup saying “You cannot queue in ranked with three or four players”.

This happened the other day, I laughed and logged for the day. I mean if this happened rarely, I wouldn’t really have any problem with it. However, instances like this occur way too frequently and it’s a real turn off.

Harbinger.8637:

This happened the other day, I laughed and logged for the day. I mean if this happened rarely, I wouldn’t really have any problem with it. However, instances like this occur way too frequently and it’s a real turn off.

It happens waaay too often. I try to party queue as much as possible now. I’ve took too many losses in the past two weeks.

Quadox.7834:

You could even keep it as one “ranked” button if you want, just force 5 parties ALWAYS go against 5, and solos+duos go against eachother.

If you try to queue with 3 or 4 players in party, send popup saying “You cannot queue in ranked with three or four players”.

This.

Is it really so hard to implement this? It’ll clearly make everything far kittening better…

After 8 min que

vlad.4871:

After 8 min que

clearly lies. the chat says 10 min queue. how can i believe anything anymore

I hate playing vs premades because all games boil down to identifying the pugs on the enemy team and picking them off. If I’m going to play vs premades, I expect an actually challenging full 5-man team. Otherwise it becomes a boring game of bully-the-pug-and-win.

5-man or none.

I never really understood the whole premade vs solo argument. I’m certainly not the greatest player ever. But I’ve done solo queues and won some and lost some. Some of the time it was vs a team, other times, another group of random pugs. I’ve also done team games. Again, sometimes we win, sometimes we don’t. Again, facing either pug groups or teams.

So it seems that soloers (i.e. pug groups) are upset because they face a team and get ROFL stomped. So it’s the fault of the match making system? It’s not lack of communication, which also includes listening and acting? It’s not due to people seeing a team and basically giving up because they assume they are going to lose? It’s not due that maybe you as the player are not as good as you think you are?

Why does it HAVE to be the fault of the system? Where many people are using the exact same system, and have little to no issues with it. (or if they do they aren’t coming here to talk about it). Even some people in this very thread don’t agree that the solo vs pre-made is an issue. To me at least it seems that people are trying to blame something else for their own shortcomings.

vlad.4871:

After 8 min que

so you know for sure that 3 of the people on the other team are a party… how do you know that 3 people on your team aren’t ina party, and just not queuing up as a guild team?

did you check that? did you check to see whether the guild team you were against was a 3, 4 or 5 man group? that picture tells us so very little it’s laughable.

Quadox.7834:

You could even keep it as one “ranked” button if you want, just force 5 parties ALWAYS go against 5, and solos+duos go against eachother.

If you try to queue with 3 or 4 players in party, send popup saying “You cannot queue in ranked with three or four players”.

most definitely not this! if I’m queuing up with 4 other guildies, and one has to leave because it’s getting late why should the other 4 of us have to disband if there’s not a 5th person on that wants to join us in pvp?

Same goes for my side. If I’m queuing as 4, the success of our games just depends on babysitting our pug. It doesn’t help that the pug is often a hopeless crappy player that has no idea what they’re doing. By the end of the game, the pug is often flaming us, thinking they’re superior, when they were obviously carried by us. Pugs learn nothing from being matched with premades, and/or versing premades.

5-man or none.

For ranked, if they do make it more restrictive, I think it should be solos or 5-man teams. If you can’t do teams of 3 or 4, you don’t get to do teams of 2 either. Strict solo queue.

Zargoon.9835:

Hey Justin,

I actually have a lot of experience with this issue, and I have some thoughts on fixing it.
….

Intuitively, I think it does make sense to increase the volatility for a team queue roster (2 to 5 man premades) as you’re suggesting, but I’m not sure that it’ll address the issue all that well. For example, if I queue with two other players and let’s assume this 3-made is all similar individual MMR, low volatility on their individual rating, we’re on a functional team comp and builds, etc. Now consider how many matches we’ll queue as this exact 3-man roster versus the number of matches it will take for our volatility to settle (i.e. our 3-man rating to become accurate and for us to be matched accordingly). It’s likely that we’ll have lopsided matches (wins and losses) as our new 3-made rating is being established, which is contributes to the issue of ‘bad match ups’ and it’s unlikely that we’d even stay team queuing with the 3-made for enough matches to get an accurate team MMR and have a chance at getting those ‘good matches’.

The psuedo code is on the wiki: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Matchmaking_Algorithm

The match making tries to account for the premades and that’s better than nothing, but in a lot of instances it really isn’t that much better than nothing.

IMO, a better approach would be for Anet to look at what and how they are communicating match ups to a player. As it stands right now, the only info I get as a player from a match is knowing that I won or lost. A better approach might be having match up odds displayed at the beginning of the match to help manage expectations. If I have a 35% chance to win in a given match up and I lose by 75 or 100 points, even though I lost I can recognize that our team performed fairly well (given the match up). The ‘tech’ as Anet likes to call it, is already there as this is essentially what was done during the last pvp league/season where you gained or lost points based on how well your team was predicted to perform.

Another option would be to display you individual MMR to help players not only see their progression, but also to help understand how wins and loses are affecting their MMR. You just sat in a overly long queue only to blow out or be blown out? It may not be that big of a deal (an unfortunate waste of time, yes). As noted above you may have been very likely to win or lose and if you performed as predicted no new information was gained from the contest and hence your MMR should remain unchanged.

TLDR:
- Match making ‘feels’ awful a lot of the time and that would likely be better addressed by displaying/communicating win odds going into a match and invidual MMR outside of matches versus trying to ‘fix’ the match making algorithm.
- The game needs to better communicate to players that they are out trying to exceed the predicted outcome of a contest which isn’t always a discrete win/loss result.

The fix is easy.
-5 man premades can only face 5 man premades
-4 man premades can face high mmr 3 OR normal mmr 4 man premades
-3 man premades can face either 3 man premade/double duo premades/or if high mmr players 4 man premades.
-Duo’s can only face a team where the opposite side has a duo as well, only 1 duo per team if against another team with only 1 duo.
-Solo queue fill in, but SPECIFICALLY looks for 5 other solo players. Make it so they have a rotation to keep queue times shorter. all solo queue-fill in IF NEEDED-all solo queue-fill in IF NEEDED, that way they aren’t constantly fill in’s.

Put this on ALL brackets, ranked and unranked and that is your fix.

If something like this isn’t done Honestly I ONLY play solo queue sPvP and SOMETIMES go into WvWvW, I plan to quit the game permanently.

oh and Please don’t say the programming is hard for this.

class Teamqueue {
public static void main(String[] args) {
if (ispremade) {
//Sets if its a premade
Playercount—;
//amount of players for sending to queueagainst
} else {
queueagainst(“You are now in Queue”);
//links to algorithm that I pointed out above, and announces to player he is in the queue
}
}

obviously this is HEAVILY simplified, awful formatting, and the code itself has better commenting than the kitten hackjob i did…but not hard to code

like 5th edit: and like the guy above me said SHOW US OUR MMR, I cant even tell if im improving at ALL sometimes. The MMR would force me to step my game up and then I might FEEL pushed towards being on a team if I feel I am good enough, right now, I have no idea how good of a player I am, other than the fact that I know I am above average.

Faydes.5803:

The fix is easy.
-5 man premades can only face 5 man premades
-4 man premades can face high mmr 3 OR normal mmr 4 man premades
-3 man premades can face either 3 man premade/double duo premades/or if high mmr players 4 man premades.
-Duo’s can only face a team where the opposite side has a duo as well, only 1 duo per team if against another team with only 1 duo.
-Solo queue fill in, but SPECIFICALLY looks for 5 other solo players. Make it so they have a rotation to keep queue times shorter. all solo queue-fill in IF NEEDED-all solo queue-fill in IF NEEDED, that way they aren’t constantly fill in’s.

Put this on ALL brackets, ranked and unranked and that is your fix.

If something like this isn’t done Honestly I ONLY play solo queue sPvP and SOMETIMES go into WvWvW, I plan to quit the game permanently.

oh and Please don’t say the programming is hard for this.

class Teamqueue {
public static void main(String[] args) {
if (ispremade) {
//Sets if its a premade
Playercount—;
//amount of players for sending to queueagainst
} else {
queueagainst(“You are now in Queue”);
//links to algorithm that I pointed out above, and announces to player he is in the queue
}
}

obviously this is HEAVILY simplified, awful formatting, and the code itself has better commenting than the kitten hackjob i did…but not hard to code

don’t think any1 saying its diff to program, the problem is

anet splits queue, so # of people for teams to face drops off
→teams have to wait longer to play
→teams stop playing as teams because they so bored

^ thats the fear, the reality:

anet merged queue, so # of people for teams to face jumps up
→teams have shorter to wait to play
→teams roll over soloq’rs (or at least is perceived as such)
→soloq’rs leave spvp/leave queuing/leave gw2
→total pop falls
→queue times begin to rise again
→back where we started, except the overall pop is down

so wat do they do? the moment they split it back up, queue times for teams def jumps up as all those soloq’rs go back to soloq’ing.

wat anet isn’t considering is that when people are having fun, they will continue to play and can try to bring their friends over/spread the word of fun/grow more.

the current strat is to force people to play X way, try to entice w/ $$$ in tourneys to get the pop up, all the while neglecting the #1 important aspect of gaming… having fun

Jaxom.7310:

snip

If you queue as a team IT IS YOUR DECISION. If you make a decision that impacts the game negatively for other players EXPECT SOME FALLOUT. Increased queue times are a cost of doing it.

There are more solo queue players than there are team players.

Also If i get a REALLY high mmr…I EXPECT A LONG QUEUE TIME to make it even for less dedicated players. There will ALWAYS be drawbacks, but making the average player miserable is a fast way to lose more players than the alternative.

At high diamond/master in league I was getting 5-10 minute queue times…and I was OK with that. It would be better than placing me against bronze’s and ruining there day while at the same time lowering my own skill by not facing people giving me a challenge.

Give me a 20 minute queue time. I will take it to improve myself and not ruin other peoples day EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK, over this current imbalanced system.

Im going to bump this, I feel like anet needs to continue to look at this issue.

going to continue to update this post with every game i play.

DISCLAIMER: ALL OF MY GAMES ARE SOLO QUEUED. I DO NOT QUEUE WITH ANY TEAM

-just faced a team with a duo with no duo on our team.(if there was their mmr was awful.), loss

-duo with a duo on enemy team, loss

-4 man premade vs 3 man premade(my team) we won

-4 man premade vs duo+2 randoms+me, we won due to zerg tactics and just backcapping, was not a fun game.

-duo vs duo, won

-4 man guild group(kill of living legends, mission), vs duo queue+me+2 randoms, won

Have talked with a few other players they have noticed the imbalance as well.

Justin ODell.9517:

Some of these are really hard to make tangible in code.

The problem with these one sided games is not so much because of premade vs. soloers but the vast difference in skill between novice and veteran players. The current MMR treats everyone in a normal distribution according to only one set of MMR (1,2,3,4,5). When it should be considering two sets of MMR pools, Novice and Veteran players. This would effectively limit the amount of one sided games because it is clearly evident that a team of 5 with 3 queue can dominate the game versus 5 solo queues even though their MMR’s are seemingly matched up.

The MMR at this point, with the new influx of novice players due to HOT is NOT taking into account this current imbalance of players on the learning curve.

If we assign the two pools Novice and Veteran a respective variable, let’s say N and V.
Where the pool of N is 1,2,3,4,5 consisting of the skill level of novices within the pool.
And the veteran pool V 1,2,3,4,5 consisting of veteran skill.
And we clearly know that N(1) does not equal V(1). The MMR of these two different pools would need to be weighted for more balanced games.

The overlap of these two curves would consist of novice and veteran pools in between each of the curves and are not novice but they are not quite veterans yet. Their MMR will change according to which pool they are selected to play with. If a player in this area of the curve has a Novice MMR of 4, their Veteran MMR would be 1. a Novice MMR of 5 would be Veteran 2.

A Novice playing with the Veteran pool has a chance to increase but not decrease their MMR (depending on Win or Lose) and playing with a Novice pool will allow them to sustain or decrease their MMR (win or lose).

This ideally would work perfectly for a solo queue only type of game mode. The problem arises in this system when you have a team of 5 veterans trying to queue and the wait time would be very long because of their high weighted MMR and not enough players in the entire pool to choose from to match their combined MMR.

Which is why we need to bring back a solo queue and team queue type of PvP queue.

The team queue can still use the current MMR system since it will always be a full premade vs a full premade. This would consist of taking the solo queue MMR and adjusting it back to the current scale of 1,2,3,4,5 which would disregard the novice and veteran pools for two reasons.
1) Their wouldn’t be a big enough pool of players to use the solo que mmr system which would increase waiting times which we don’t want.
2) The players are more likely to be organized and be aware of the map, gameplay etc, and would full well know the competitive nature of team play.

This system would allow for casual players and veteran players to enjoy solo queue and gain their dailies etc while still allowing competitive play for more experienced players in team queue.

See the image for a visual representation of the solo queue MMR distribution.

Raawk.7584:

snip

I agree with this. Although I also wish they would SHOW the skill level which is the one point that you dont mention. Make our MMR transparent. I know it will cause people to talk kitten…but its pvp…people talk kitten anyways.

Too bad Justin O’Dell left Anet earlier this year to work for Amazon.

Welp, guess i’ll make a new topic and see if it gets any response >.>

Keep going with this 5 man premade against 5 random.

So what I don’t understand is, why did they take away the “solo queue” and “team queue” options and introduce ranked and unranked team queue? There must have been some very good reason right?

One of the greatest things about GW2 pvp used to be that there was no pugs facing premades (unlike almost every other mmo). Even hotjoin used to be pretty fair. Why did they take all of that away? Is there some grander picture I am not seeing?

Yasha.5963:

So what I don’t understand is, why did they take away the “solo queue” and “team queue” options and introduce ranked and unranked team queue? There must have been some very good reason right?

One of the greatest things about GW2 pvp used to be that there was no pugs facing premades (unlike almost every other mmo). Even hotjoin used to be pretty fair. Why did they take all of that away? Is there some grander picture I am not seeing?

Odds are it was rampant feedback about how there wasn’t an unranked place to queue for fun, so they needed to make unranked. In that situation, “ranked” could just be anyone who cared about MMR.

I don’t have any history to pull from to support that, but I’m guessing people yelled at them, similar to how they are now, about how they need to change the old system because it was flawed.

Such is feedback when you have a really large audience.

Solo que and team que..paid tournaments were great times..

vlad.4871:

Keep going with this 5 man premade against 5 random.

i said this the last time that someone posted a pic like that, it doesnt prove a thing, all it shows is that for sure one team has a 3-queue… thats all it shows, there could just as easily be a 3-queue on the other team that aren’t queueing as a guild team…

ALL LIES !!!
The problem is not the MMR or Team vs Solo. I play Solo and a lot, i met so much premade that where beaten by us Solo players, until i began to ask them. if they are PVE premade.
Most of them are not in team speak.

vlad.4871:

Keep going with this 5 man premade against 5 random.

and about your screen Vlad: Beside the guard, this Assassin, this ranger, and this mesmer are not worth a win together. You can forget it.
Since i know those 3 players’ style very well, i guess you are the necro.
They are not newbie “au contraire” they have a lot of pvp exp. But they don’t play very well. Because they think too high of themselves.

The Problem is not MMR, people have a lot of pvp exp, think they are godly and play kitten and don’t listen to the chat or the map instruction.

I have may be the highest MMR in eu and the dev must be very happy unsing my pvp data.
Since the last fix, the pvp system is working fine.

So those conplains because you lost some match in a row are not justfified.

Please stop crying so much and try all get better and come down a little.

sorry for my bad egnlish.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Yasha.5963:

So what I don’t understand is, why did they take away the “solo queue” and “team queue” options and introduce ranked and unranked team queue? There must have been some very good reason right?

One of the greatest things about GW2 pvp used to be that there was no pugs facing premades (unlike almost every other mmo). Even hotjoin used to be pretty fair. Why did they take all of that away? Is there some grander picture I am not seeing?

Odds are it was rampant feedback about how there wasn’t an unranked place to queue for fun, so they needed to make unranked. In that situation, “ranked” could just be anyone who cared about MMR.

I don’t have any history to pull from to support that, but I’m guessing people yelled at them, similar to how they are now, about how they need to change the old system because it was flawed.

Such is feedback when you have a really large audience.

Yes, I remember now, you are spot on. Unfortunately, it was kind of like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Very likely players still wanted something like unranked but also wanted to avoid pug vs premade, like in solo queue.

vlad.4871:

Keep going with this 5 man premade against 5 random.

This post right here shows the lack of understanding in these soloq threads.

THIS IS NOT A 5 MAN PREMADE JUST BECAUSE THEY HAVE A GUILD NAME.

You get a guild name if there are 3 people together and they select as a guild team. Your team could actually be a 5 stack but not a guild squad and they are against a 3 man and two solos.

The game needs to give you a clear picture of who is in party at the start because people are clearly not understanding what a premade is and what is a duo or trio together. Nor do they understand their team could be together as well.

Very funny.

displacedTitan.6897:

vlad.4871:

Keep going with this 5 man premade against 5 random.

This post right here shows the lack of understanding in these soloq threads.

THIS IS NOT A 5 MAN PREMADE JUST BECAUSE THEY HAVE A GUILD NAME.

You get a guild name if there are 3 people together and they select as a guild team. Your team could actually be a 5 stack but not a guild squad and they are against a 3 man and two solos.

The game needs to give you a clear picture of who is in party at the start because people are clearly not understanding what a premade is and what is a duo or trio together. Nor do they understand their team could be together as well.

Very funny.

they were 5 players from same pvp guild. We were 5 random ppl matched togheter I asked.

more lovely stuff

Justin ODell.9517:

I’m really curious as to how you guys are figuring out if the other team is a pre-made. We don’t tell you, and looking at the data there are very few party rosters compared to solo.

Is it just match quality being bad? Are you just recognizing player names?

The way to check it is by hitting Details – You can see how many people are queue’d together.

I don’t have issues with premade vs solo, because I tend to queue with at least 1 other friend.

You guys realize the dev’s reply is 11 months old and at that time you could queue up solo even being in a party right? As well there wasn’t an option to join party, only to invite to party even if was a full party, would get an error message in that case. He was right to ask, because wasn’t as clear and obvious back then as it is now.

Show support for how to help the problem, don’t just complain. support;

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Bring-back-consecutive-wins-from-RA-Gw1/first#post5803383

It’s at least something that can be integrated into the system and is much easier then changing everything around, it simply allows you to continue with people you win with, and form your own team/list of players to queue with over time!

trytonianYeti.4389:

Too bad Justin O’Dell left Anet earlier this year to work for Amazon.

He seemed like the only ANet developer that knew what they were saying when it came to sPvP. I guess they haven’t replaced him yet and that’s why there is zero kittens given about matchmaking etc.

RIP

Collero.7963:

trytonianYeti.4389:

Too bad Justin O’Dell left Anet earlier this year to work for Amazon.

He seemed like the only ANet developer that knew what they were saying when it came to sPvP. I guess they haven’t replaced him yet and that’s why there is zero kittens given about matchmaking etc.

RIP

Can’t blame him. They’re saying “fix it” without giving him the tools to do the job. What’s the correct term they use… “don’t have the tech for it”.

Did that dev really not know that you can right click names? :|

I thought Justin O’del was responsible for the premade vs solo queue mess, but seems he i’snt. Without him it’s even 3x as worse (was already 2-3x as bad as before all this mmr system implementation). So now it’s 10x as bad.

Protip: for once stop the ‘omg we gotta mega cool, kittenty expensive tournement viable’ nonsense (200k dollar tournement). Focus on making the gamemode FUN again. Fun attracts ppl, creates more hype. And might get you what you want. Enforcing it (tournements), doesn’t work. Aka work on queueing outside of pvp! Work on perhaps a solution for soloque. (I said solution, not that you have to make a solo queu mode again per se).

You guys remember the 2 pvp test ladders? Those were Justin’s projects. No wonder we haven’t heard from anet on what exactly they will do with the data they’ve collected. At this point, my guess is probably nothing.

Collero.7963:

trytonianYeti.4389:

Too bad Justin O’Dell left Anet earlier this year to work for Amazon.

He seemed like the only ANet developer that knew what they were saying when it came to sPvP. I guess they haven’t replaced him yet and that’s why there is zero kittens given about matchmaking etc.

RIP

I got a giggle of his past quote of “if it takes a year it’ll be a personal failing of mine”

It certainly is…

This prepade vs pug thing is getting totally out of hand. I know it sounds like I am raging, but just look at this. How long do we have to endure this kind of rolf-stomping?!

all you salty soloqueuers should form a salty solo queue premade. there are absolutely enough of you to do so.

They take away solo que, try and design it for team play but they dont put in a voice system?

Some smart designer.

Look at counter strike, game of skills yet no one complains about premades. Game starts, everyone can communicate by voice.

You can get to highest rank solo. Nothing stops you. Professionals can do it, show it on stream.

You watch GW pros on stream, they win like anything, then some of their members in the group have to go, they try solos and lose few games. They quit for the day.

Its just going to come to the point where its party of 2-3 as minimum to win. Solo players will drop away from PVP. Then the 2-3 party will lose to 5mans. So now you have to be in 5man premades or suffer the disadvantage as solo querer.

GW is hugely casual solo players who dont want to waste time setting up a group and get into a game. If you wanted to waste time getting a group etc before hitting the que button, people would rather go to more advance games. Wont stick to gw2.

Solo players is huge base of counter strike community too, its them who make counter strike popular esport. Whos going to make GW2 the same?

I do way better when soloing and go on long winning streaks, as opposed to when grouped, especially with more then two players, when i usually get stomped. I think this is because its more likely that groups vs groups and solos vs solos. So i’m not sure what the op’s problem is, this is also obvious since the expansion now that you can see who is grouped after the match….

That said, the reason you can’t have a solo only qeue is because people will just undermine it anyway. This has been proven with gw1’s random arena and with the solo ranking in gw2. People would just sync drop or quit matches or pad stats. This would be even more likely now with f2p accounts. The way anet has it set up now, is the best they can do and I don’t see a huge problem with premades, not like I do in most other mmo’s.

choovanski.5462:

all you salty soloqueuers should form a salty solo queue premade. there are absolutely enough of you to do so.

I tried and suggested this last year, people couldn’t be bothered to log into TS, or vent or mumble or skype, or basically put any effort into it. If someone else wants to try again I will help any way I can.

choovanski.5462:

all you salty soloqueuers should form a salty solo queue premade. there are absolutely enough of you to do so.

Unfortunately in EU no one seems to speak english. Either that or they just ignore everything you say.

choovanski.5462:

all you salty soloqueuers should form a salty solo queue premade. there are absolutely enough of you to do so.

That could be a good idea, its quite sad when premades only score 5 points against your pug team, at least if it was team vs team they probably wouldn’t feel so bad getting rolf-stomped.

5 man randoms vs full Pro League teams. Neat.
Doesn’t help 1 of us left after 1 minute, but still, this shouldn’t be happening.

coax.2951:

[img]http://imgur.com/INjENY3[/img]
5 man randoms vs full Pro League teams. Neat.
Doesn’t help 1 of us left after 1 minute, but still, this shouldn’t be happening.

Purple Noise?

coax.2951:

5 man randoms vs full Pro League teams. Neat.
Doesn’t help 1 of us left after 1 minute, but still, this shouldn’t be happening.

Yasha.5963:

This prepade vs pug thing is getting totally out of hand. I know it sounds like I am raging, but just look at this. How long do we have to endure this kind of rolf-stomping?!

Poor Elin Potatoe.