Guild Wars 2

I wanted to ask the following question to the community it self, hoping for the Dev’s to get a read in this, since I’m sure most of you agree with me. Also please, try to explain in a few words why you decided to choose your option.

*What is to you, dear pvp player, the first thing you want to see in sPVP?

a.) Balance?

b.) Bug fixes?

c.) Infrastructure for competitive sPVP (arenas, weekly tournaments, ladders…etc)

d.) Any other option you feel is your priority.

-I choose C

For me, bug fixes, balance…etc, comes after. What comes first is a metagame, an incentive to play and get better; a goal. Not gear, not a pretty title, not an hippopotamus roaring when I kill somebody: Metagame folks, ranks, official tournaments, Ladders!!!.

If I had that, I wouldn’t care much about balancing, or bug fixing; Cause I know that is a matter of time.

Balance is the least of this games issues and should be one of its lowest priorities outside a few tweaks.

Features, features features.

Infrastructure and features sell games and bring players in.

c
/fifteenchars

the current metagame is fundamentally flawed

lets take a look at why, with most esport games or games that aspire to be competitive a meta is established by the community of players trying to counter other players in the most efficient manner, this is how it works in games like cod4promod or tf2

gw2 does things differently, the developers established the metagame… brilliant right?
yeah na

all that’s done is created another meta game, which is having a negative impact on the game (3 eles is good design right?)

first issue is simple, bunkers, roamers and support are bad for the game, it simply overvalues classes, and its even worse with utility like portal and timewarp, nodes should not be stand on and capture, they should be click to turn capture where the player must actively defend the point instead of sitting there and simply preventing damage on oneself until help arrives, at which point the attacking player instantly dies because the player that killed him was invisible or charged at lighting fast speed

fact is, arenanet said there would be no trinity system, changing the names of the roles in the trinity system doesn’t stop it from being trinity, before the game released, they said this would be a role-less mmo and then they put in class roles, on top of that, in the Class balance philosophies they basically commended alot of classes to mediocrity

my personal favorite is elementalist vs engineer, basically saying engies are versatile but eles are MORE versatile, good stuff anet

obviously the infrastructure is very poor at the moment… and the game has been out for quite awhile…. not really sure whats going on there

i think the only reason why they are not testing other games modes yet creating domination maps to pander to the players who want more gamemodes (see: spirit watch) is because they simply fear the balance backlash and the responsibility of balancing the game around a variety of scenarios

im not even asking for arena TDM anymore, i just want to see this horrible bunker/roamer/support developer inforced meta thrown out

edit: why cant i ever make anything simple?

I want a new map.

Obviously its c, its pointless to even ask.

slightly offtopic: i’d like to see the concept of bunkers vs burst gone as well. i just don’t think it’s fun. i don’t like the idea of winning a match by getting 500 points. i think it removes most possibility of comebacks after a bad start. i’d like to see bunkers and burst toned down, and i’d like to see the classes be more vulnerable to specific tactics, and needing teammates to support them (e.g. warriors weak to conditions, needs someone to remove conditions from them). i think the conquest gameplay spreads a team too thin, so that only classes that are independent can play well — this removes most teamplay options.

if conquest is gone, and we focus more on teamfights in some new gametype (gvg pls thnx), and if we tone down burst and bunkers, i think we will see excellent pvp.

I believe features and balance can be worked on seperately. There are several features that are desperately needed (and they are already being worked on) and it doesnt seem like we can hurry those up in any way.

However, I think balance is also absolutely crucial. Not just inter-class balance, but balance between builds within a class, and balance of how classes/builds interact with game modes and maps. And also gameplay balance of the various mechanics of the basic combat.

People are getting bored because the game balance / meta doesnt offer enough opportunity and variety too keep things interesting.
If they can’t keep the gameplay interesting, but instead just add “incentives” for people to play, then ultimately it becomes a grind.

They need to make gameplay that will keep people around just for the fun of it, and then additional rewards are just icing.

Balance changes and fixes are needed to keep things interesting, until those features can finally be rolled out.

Please stop with these balance issues.
- They have more other priorities to handle than balance (see all 100 threads about incentive and suggestions)
- They said in sotg they won’t seperate skillz to only PvP / only PvE.
Means it’s even harder to balance for 2 absolutely different gameplays.

Balance won’t bring players back. So balance without ppl is worthless to achieve.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Balance won’t bring players back. So balance without ppl is worthless to achieve.

How do you know that? Many players are burned with pvp, and new viable builds are as good at refreshing the experience as new features would.

Custom arenas, spectator mode and leaderboards are all really cool, but if people are going to keep playing with the same ol meta builds over and over, the environment will barely change.

Well, balance it’s important. I personally like the game itself, the play style, the battles it self.

What you say Rieselle, is to change the basic gameplay of the game; which is if not impossible, quite hard; it’s already written and hard coded. Changing basic gameplay, requires so much time/work, and you have the risk of doing something the people wont like.

For me, gameplay it’s quite fun, and interesting. I’m sure more builds will become viable with time and tweaks (and remember the game it’s pretty new, we still haven’t figure out each build, believe it or not). Also; if they change maps/style of maps (as Team vs Team battle, arena mode…etc). New builds will start to emerge.

Edit: Also:If they did focus on balance, instead of Metagame… well, you’d have more of the same, with more variety I give you that: But again, lack of any motivation.

Exactly. More different builds will come with different modes. Balance is pretty important, don’t get me wrong here, but in the actual sotg it wouln’t be good spending alot of time with balancing issues. This would result in a lack of time for other really really important things. Balance gets important if a game is some sort of complete (gw2 obviously not).

JimmyJazz.7943:

Well, balance it’s important. I personally like the game itself, the play style, the battles it self.

What you say Rieselle, is to change the basic gameplay of the game; which is if not impossible, quite hard; it’s already written and hard coded. Changing basic gameplay, requires so much time/work, and you have the risk of doing something the people wont like.

For me, gameplay it’s quite fun, and interesting. I’m sure more builds will become viable with time and tweaks (and remember the game it’s pretty new, we still haven’t figure out each build, believe it or not). Also; if they change maps/style of maps (as Team vs Team battle, arena mode…etc). New builds will start to emerge.

Edit: Also:If they did focus on balance, instead of Metagame… well, you’d have more of the same, with more variety I give you that: But again, lack of any motivation.

I guess it comes down to different preferences. I don’t care at all about virtual shinies and pixels. I don’t really need to see numbers going up. I also don’t care -too much- about the game mode, since they all basically boil down to combat in the end anyways.

My past competitive experiences are mostly with fighting games, where there’s no progression or other MMO features. I play because of the competition and the gameplay. (and the combat )

Currently I am a little bit dissatisfied with the build variety and the combat in the game. Giving me “rewards” is not going to attract me very much to play PVP. Neither will new game modes.

We also disagree on what is “easier” to achieve. (without knowledge of how ANet works, it’s impossible to know the truth.) To me, balance changes can be done with relatively few resources, especially if they are just numerical tweaks. Give a designer a spreadsheet, and off he goes. If it’s just tweaking up/down some skill’s stats, then it almost doesn’t need testing if it’s something the community is clamouring for. Just roll it out quickly and revert just as quickly if needed. At this stage an erratic and fast moving balance would be interesting rather than annoying to me. If we’re really worried, then invite some more players into the private test server and get more feedback more quickly.

Whereas incentives needs artists to make the rewards, UI designers for the new windows, writers for the text, translators to localise the text, testers to make sure the system works, programmers to implement, designers to plan out the system, etc. “Features” are a lot harder work than “balance”, and I feel like ANet’s “PVP feature” resources are already maxed out on Custom Arenas, Spectator Mode, Ladders, Matchmaking.

Talking about new features at this time is pointless when we’re still waiting for those ones.

What I’m currently looking forward to most are new features (custom arenas, spectator mode mostly) and regular balance patches (not small meaningless fixes for tooltips every month or two months). No point in other shinies if the core is still incomplete.

Rieselle.5079:

JimmyJazz.7943:

Well, balance it’s important. I personally like the game itself, the play style, the battles it self.

What you say Rieselle, is to change the basic gameplay of the game; which is if not impossible, quite hard; it’s already written and hard coded. Changing basic gameplay, requires so much time/work, and you have the risk of doing something the people wont like.

For me, gameplay it’s quite fun, and interesting. I’m sure more builds will become viable with time and tweaks (and remember the game it’s pretty new, we still haven’t figure out each build, believe it or not). Also; if they change maps/style of maps (as Team vs Team battle, arena mode…etc). New builds will start to emerge.

Edit: Also:If they did focus on balance, instead of Metagame… well, you’d have more of the same, with more variety I give you that: But again, lack of any motivation.

I guess it comes down to different preferences. I don’t care at all about virtual shinies and pixels. I don’t really need to see numbers going up. I also don’t care -too much- about the game mode, since they all basically boil down to combat in the end anyways.

My past competitive experiences are mostly with fighting games, where there’s no progression or other MMO features. I play because of the competition and the gameplay. (and the combat )

Currently I am a little bit dissatisfied with the build variety and the combat in the game. Giving me “rewards” is not going to attract me very much to play PVP. Neither will new game modes.

We also disagree on what is “easier” to achieve. (without knowledge of how ANet works, it’s impossible to know the truth.) To me, balance changes can be done with relatively few resources, especially if they are just numerical tweaks. Give a designer a spreadsheet, and off he goes. If it’s just tweaking up/down some skill’s stats, then it almost doesn’t need testing if it’s something the community is clamouring for. Just roll it out quickly and revert just as quickly if needed. At this stage an erratic and fast moving balance would be interesting rather than annoying to me. If we’re really worried, then invite some more players into the private test server and get more feedback more quickly.

Whereas incentives needs artists to make the rewards, UI designers for the new windows, writers for the text, translators to localise the text, testers to make sure the system works, programmers to implement, designers to plan out the system, etc. “Features” are a lot harder work than “balance”, and I feel like ANet’s “PVP feature” resources are already maxed out on Custom Arenas, Spectator Mode, Ladders, Matchmaking.

Talking about new features at this time is pointless when we’re still waiting for those ones.

Seems we’re in the same page; I meant just that: Ladders, competitive tournaments, ranks…etc. Something to aim for with my teammates (something worth the training ).

Shinny stuff isn’t necessary, but it’s always more enjoyable when there is something in play, people usually takes it more serious.

About the designing/writing the code… I have absolutely no idea my friend..

I guess we’ll have to wait, and see.

if the game was release today, i would gladly chose C-

but game is 7 months old… so my choice is D

D = bug fix + balance + infrastructure

Balance/build variety. To hell with features if the foundation sucks. Meta sucks.

If you do not think balance and bug fixes are priority, you are probably playing one of those imbalanced classes, or hitting a bug you haven’t/have realized. :p

Examples: block bug, svanir bug, rune condition duration bug, tornado bug, sigil of paralyzation bug, s/d earth healing bug, grenade kit refinement unintentional high spike, stealth culling and non revealing when attacks blocked, venoms not cancelling when hitting blocking targets, ranger condition transfer to pets bug, stacking traps bug, mesmer double shatter bug, quickness stomping bug, res skills not ressing but just healing some bug, ground targeted conditions still applying while blocking bug, magnet pulls you while blocking bug, etc.

I am sure I am missing some as not all are reported since players like to abuse things.

What brings you balance without incentive to play? you mean just because the meta changes ppl will come back, and play the same mode over again for 6 months?
Prolly not

c.) Infrastructure for competitive sPVP (arenas, weekly tournaments, ladders…etc)

^dis

But there’s no reason they can’t do all of them. I doubt (hope) that the same people working on class balance also are responsible for the development of these features.

Honestly, they should just like, make a month the PvP month for development. Just put the PvE team and have them develop these features. At the rate ArenaNet is going, they have like… 3 PvP developers.

Nothing can move forward without balance. The current atrocious balance drives people away from PvP which makes any added feature worthless. People don’t even get interested in eventually competing in a game where some professions just faceroll others.

some classes will always faceroll others. I agree the warrior pretty much sucks right now. Aside from that, anyone can pull up a good fight on his/her own.

It’s my opinion only of course.

i feel i would get more attention if i posted this crap on reddit… to bad reddit only cares about farming upvotes, such an awful website

Valkyriez.6578:

Balance is the least of this games issues and should be one of its lowest priorities outside a few tweaks.

Features, features features.

Infrastructure and features sell games and bring players in.

/agreed.

The absolute highest Priority Features are:

1) Custom Games: This would allow the Community to grow themselves, to create Tournaments, to train with other Teams etc.
It is an absolute necessity for e-Sports and it would even diminish the lack of other Features like a Ladder, because if the really good Teams play in ESL and have their own Ladder, an ingame-Ladder isn’t as necessary as before.
2) Observer Mode: If we would have Custom Games but no Observer-Mode, we could still arrange Tournaments and watch them with Streams. It’s not pretty, but it would work, that’s why the Observer-Mode is the second Priority.
But if you want the Community to grow, get ppl excited about seeing certain Matchups, to maybe establish a Streaming-Community with casted Tournaments and Showmatches, you’d need the Observer Mode.
3) Replays: Again, its a tool to get the Community involved: Good games could be safed and maybe casted or analyzed later etc.

After all those Tools for the Community, we could focus on “Ingame-Stuff”, like Rankings, new Game-Modes, Maps etc.

The big Problem is though, that the 3 necessary features above won’t bring tons of ppl back or excite anyone that isn’t already playing GW2 and is simply waiting for those features, because they are absolute Standard in basically every competetive Game.

If you really want ppl back, we need new Maps, Gamemodes etc.

Balance-Issues come after all that, because: For good balancing, you need a competetive Community, which GW2 hasen’t currently. Also, new Maps and Game Modes could change the Metagame and balancing before that would be kinda useless.

More game modes, better matchmaking in tourneys (ie no 4vs5 etc), and possibily a ladder to motivate you (or depress you depending on whether you solo join or are in a premade).

Interpret Interrupt.3824:

If you do not think balance and bug fixes are priority, you are probably playing one of those imbalanced classes, or hitting a bug you haven’t/have realized. :p

Examples: block bug, svanir bug, rune condition duration bug, tornado bug, sigil of paralyzation bug, s/d earth healing bug, grenade kit refinement unintentional high spike, stealth culling and non revealing when attacks blocked, venoms not cancelling when hitting blocking targets, ranger condition transfer to pets bug, stacking traps bug, mesmer double shatter bug, quickness stomping bug, res skills not ressing but just healing some bug, ground targeted conditions still applying while blocking bug, magnet pulls you while blocking bug, etc.

I am sure I am missing some as not all are reported since players like to abuse things.

I’m actually playing as an engineer. And have no problems with any other classes to be honest; I get beaten, or not. The game it’s balanced enough to outplay anyone around.

There are some serious bugs, we all agree. But we’re discussing something different here; not balancing, not equal fights: But the implementation of the core of SPVP: Which is described above.

As someone said; if you don’t have serious teams, hardcore competitive teams playing this game: How in hell are you going to balance it??; You can fix the bugs of course, but you cannot balance a game based on low/medium players; simply cause they haven’t discovered the full potential of their own character/class.

- real tournaments, real rating, real ladder is what I want to see
- glory grind rank system is already messed up so much that it can’t be fixed
- balance is fine.

I agree with PowerBottom.
Custom servers/arenas have to come after leaderboards and a proper matchmaking and seperation of queues. They can really fix a lot of stuff.
If we can modify rules and skills in custom servers then we will see a lot of people playing them and balancing should also not be much of problem on the real tournaments if we can just present the player-made changes on the representative servers like player-made, competitive leagues.
Now, this requires of course that we will be able to do this stuff of what I am partly sure.

P.S.: Would be amazing to disable capture points so matches become deathmatches.