Guild Wars 2

The number of projectile reflect skills and projectile blocking skills that have been introduced is ridiculous and skewing the pvp meta to favor certain professions. This wouldn’t be bad if there weren’t so many or if they weren’t so easily accessible. Keep in mind when I say “Bulwark Gyro” I’m referring to it’s toolbelt skill.

Tempest is the big one. It didn’t so much add them as much as it did benefit bringing them, as the tempest aura traits are very powerful and the best weapon for that is focus which gives a short reflect and aoe block. Overload earth is the big addition, which wouldn’t be bad if the aforementioned issue of aura sharing being prioritized by tempest, but since it is, it allows for kitten aoe magnetic aura every 20-25s depending on attunment swap time. In team fights, a single tempest can shut down any projectile based players for 10-15s every 30s where as a base ele can only achieve 6-9s in the same interval.

Scrapper brought in the most with electro-whirl and bulwark gyro. With these two skills a lone scrapper can probably stay projectile immune for around half the time (5s from gyro on 25s cd + 1.5s for the 4 electro-whirls you can cast in the mean time). If these were blocks alone this wouldn’t be a conversation to have but their reflects so the danger a scrapper poses is also very high. This is without mentioning their sheer power scaling.

Druid is the other one. It added one skill, Sublime conversion, which again, not too bad as a stand alone skill. It only truly becomes an issue in team fights when it allows for 5s of every 25s interval to have projectile immunity. A few other issues

These two combined (and used in coordinated teams ofc) allow near permanent projectile denial in team fights. Why is this a problem? It prevents certain builds to be viable in high tier pvp and cripples them in low level. It’s why every esl game is just a team of a tempest, scrapper or sometimes druid, necro (few projectiles), revenant (few projectiles+other issues), and a mesmer (few projectiles). I’d like to see higher variation in games but this issue really hurts any class outside of the current meta. I’m not saying this is the entire reason teams look like they do, there’s still balancing issues, but I am saying it does discourage teams from taking say, a dragon hunter or a d/p thief.

PS: I’m going to make a special note that swirling winds has a higher cooldown than bulwark gyro, is roughly the same size and is stuck in place. Electro-whirl is also just a more accessible/more useful version of whirling defense.

sublime conversion is fine , its 5seconds and rangers only viable Team Projectile defence outside of Melee Ranger gs, sword/axe , in one sense atleast Sublime conversion isn’t a Reflection.

the thing about Gyros is they can be killed rather than ignored , tempests can be shutdown with Melee Pushes ect before they go into Earth attunement or Air for Swirling winds between fire and water is the perfect time to force them off point or make them blow cooldowns to make them enter Earth off point after a Push.

after that killing gyros , making sure Tempests have Melee pressure and Mobility CC pushing them away those Radius Projecile defences are usless if they are not close enough.

the main issue i see here is that people don’t kill gyros and leave it too long into the fight to do anything about it.

i play a LB/GS cleric druid in pvp and have no issues vs the projecile defences currently its easy to manage just by taking out the gyro First thing in a fight vs a scrapper and make sure the ele keeps off point by forcing him off point , ergo Projecile defences solved no problems , the druid sublime conversion is just like any ther wall skill if you are attacking from afar its easy to set up infront of you but if you attack from a medium>short distance using a Ranged weapon(just because its ranged doesn’t mean you have to be At range)

from a postion which is close to the wall or you fire from a angle into the Node it leaves more open spaces on the other side of the walk way ect by using postioning you can force Wall skills to be placed in a disadvantagous postion.

the choice of classes is the choice of those playing in the ESL, the combination of those classes are simply the best Team fighters for that Team play style which is simply again just swamping a node any team comp with AoE push or Daze theifs/ mass invis condi shatter mesmers and a timed attack can deal with it.

but because both teams are running those classes Projectiles are counter intuitive to

>>>" use unless those projecile defences are Bypassed as i mentioned above".<<<

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

the main issue i see here is that people don’t kill gyros and leave it too long into the fight to do anything about it.

Killing the gyro is irrelevant so far as projectile defense goes, since that’s on the toolbelt skill (and even then, only when the gyro isn’t active).

In general, the problem of this game which makes it so hard to balance is the amount of negation there is. Invulnerabilities, evades, blocks, reflects, condi cleanse, resistance, etc… This allows some builds/classes to completely shut down some others.

A block should not remove all damage but simply reduce it (possibly by a lot but not fully) and the same for the other mechanics. That would make gw2 PvP much healthier…

Projectile hate in this game is pretty ridiculous. And it’s odd because so many ranged attacks in the game aren’t projectile at all, such as beam attacks, ground target aoes, necro scepter, mesmer shatters, utilities etc, so its not like projectile hate is pushing melee to the front. And projectiles don’t seem to be any stronger than non-projectile oriented ranged options, so I really don’t understand it.

There’s also DH Shield Of Courage(twice with Renewed Focus), Wall of Reflection, Shelter, Sanctuary, Zealots Defense, Shield Of Absorption and Protective Reviver bringing the total to 8 skills that reflect all on DH.

But I get the feeling we are only focusing on the DH counters otherwise Mesmer would surely have made the list a lot easier than a Druid with traited reflections and 2 x Feedback bubbles.

I have the opposite opinion….they already nerfed the heck outa people’s sustain. I hate matches where my entire team goes in and dies in 2 seconds, rez and repeat until match ends. I think we need more sustain/healing/blocks/protection.

roamzero.9486:

Projectile hate in this game is pretty ridiculous. And it’s odd because so many ranged attacks in the game aren’t projectile at all, such as beam attacks, ground target aoes, necro scepter, mesmer shatters, utilities etc, so its not like projectile hate is pushing melee to the front. And projectiles don’t seem to be any stronger than non-projectile oriented ranged options, so I really don’t understand it.

The reason people complain is they get countered by something depending on what profession or build they are playing and instead of changing their build/profession/play style they’d rather complain about it and get everything in the game nerfed except for what they play. And apparently their complaints get listened to and everything else gets nerfed and everyone who enjoyed whatever they were playing now have to change and play some other profession or build they don’t wanna play cuz their previous one is no longer viable. Which makes no sense but that’s the way it is……

Ellie.5913:

roamzero.9486:

Projectile hate in this game is pretty ridiculous. And it’s odd because so many ranged attacks in the game aren’t projectile at all, such as beam attacks, ground target aoes, necro scepter, mesmer shatters, utilities etc, so its not like projectile hate is pushing melee to the front. And projectiles don’t seem to be any stronger than non-projectile oriented ranged options, so I really don’t understand it.

The reason people complain is they get countered by something depending on what profession or build they are playing and instead of changing their build/profession/play style they’d rather complain about it and get everything in the game nerfed except for what they play. And apparently their complaints get listened to and everything else gets nerfed and everyone who enjoyed whatever they were playing now have to change and play some other profession or build they don’t wanna play cuz their previous one is no longer viable. Which makes no sense but that’s the way it is……

Magnetic Aura, Swirling Winds, Defense Field, Distortion. The thing about these spells / effects are that there’s no counterplay.
I am currently enjoying DH alot but the fact that. 3/5 longbow skills are reflectable is tiring. We do however have a weapon swap which consists of Sword / Focus. The only “Powerful” AA-chain skill is the third one, which is reflectable. Our only other damaging skill on that set outside of focus 5 is our Sword 3 (Zealot’s Defense) which is a deflect “Destroy ranged attacks while casting magical projectiles.”. The thing about this is that if you actually Sword 3 vs a reflect, the deflect does in fact not work. You get hit by the full dmg.

Our last skill we havnt covered is Focus 4, which is also reflectable. So this means that 6/10 skills are reflectable.

Second week in a row on Projectile hate. I honestly like projectile defense due to the amount of projectiles I have to deal with. At a very high level, if the goal of PvP is to hold the point and you can attack someone from range without any counterplay, then there needs to be a way to force someone to have to fight on point. Projectile hate is the goal to ensure that you are forcing ranged attacks onto the point. Sniping in GW2 takes coordination and skill but it can be a very high pay off.

If we remove projectile defense, there is no ranged counterplay except for teleports.

Thiefz.3695:

Second week in a row on Projectile hate. I honestly like projectile defense due to the amount of projectiles I have to deal with. At a very high level, if the goal of PvP is to hold the point and you can attack someone from range without any counterplay, then there needs to be a way to force someone to have to fight on point. Projectile hate is the goal to ensure that you are forcing ranged attacks onto the point. Sniping in GW2 takes coordination and skill but it can be a very high pay off.

If we remove projectile defense, there is no ranged counterplay except for teleports.

SO right. I can’t stand when some one stands way out of my reach and shoots me to death with no way to defend myself or reach them to kill them. Like I said people are always gonna complain about something if it counters there build, that doesn’t mean it needs to be removed, soooooo many cool builds have already been nerfed to death to the point where there’s only like 3 or 4 professions people play and like 1 build for each of them which is ridiculous and boring.

Ellie.5913:

The reason people complain is they get countered by something depending on what profession or build they are playing and instead of changing their build/profession/play style they’d rather complain about it and get everything in the game nerfed except for what they play.

In the past, that may have been a proper response. But HoT specs are just so broken that they need to be nerfed. Core stuff with projectile block/reflect often has trade-offs. Usually you have to slot a utility skill and that skill is only good against projectiles. Or the total uptime was pretty low, so the counter was only active for a few seconds.

But now you’re seeing high anti-projectile up-time with almost no counterplay, especially from scrapper. With wall of reflection, you can attack from a different angle. Feedback you can force players out (same with swirling winds). How do you deal with any scrapper anti-projectile abilities besides waiting them out?

Exedore.6320:

But now you’re seeing high anti-projectile up-time with almost no counterplay, especially from scrapper. With wall of reflection, you can attack from a different angle. Feedback you can force players out (same with swirling winds). How do you deal with any scrapper anti-projectile abilities besides waiting them out?

use a non projectile ability until the wall goes down then hit them hard?

in other words don’t just stand there and spam every skill, be selective in which skills you are using when

Scapper is countered by conditions. While it has some clear and a transmute, it isn’t enough to deal with condition mesmer or necros who bring good condition pressure. Fighting a scrapper with Paladin is going to be hard because they have high toughness and CC. Best to allow the passive pressure of conditions to help you.

EDIT: When I fight a scrapper on point with a paladin class (say DH), it’s always a draw. When I fight on reaper, it’s a pretty good chance of winning.

zxstanyxz.8769:

use a non projectile ability until the wall goes down then hit them hard?

Electro-whirl + Defense Field = 40% uptime. Add in Shock Shield for blocks. Why bother using projectiles at all?

The problem isn’t the idea of projectile hate; it’s that it’s too easy to obtain with too high an uptime for too little effort.

@ThiefZ why would I have to play one of 2 meta builds to kill a scrapper? Its rediculous how powerful they are against most classes and builds, I play a condi druid variation and fighting scrappers can be a nightmare sometimes ,even when I dish out 3~5 Condi’s most of the fight.

Totally agreed that there’s too much hate. Scrappers are probably the best example due to just how good Defense Shield is, but there’s plenty of other projectile hate and a LOT of it came from HoT.

ShadowHunter.5173:

@ThiefZ why would I have to play one of 2 meta builds to kill a scrapper? Its rediculous how powerful they are against most classes and builds, I play a condi druid variation and fighting scrappers can be a nightmare sometimes ,even when I dish out 3~5 Condi’s most of the fight.

Why do I need to bring tons of condition clear? Because most of the classes being played these days bring tons of conditions.Why do I have to bring projectile defenses? Because most of the builds these days use projectiles…

So if you know that you will face classes with projectile defenses then make a build that allows you to rotate between when the projectile defenses are up. If you can’t beat the scrapper, rotate to another point. That scrapper is only on one point so you rotate to one of the other two.

The entire point of rotations is that you rotate out of the fights you can’t win and to the fights you can. Not every build will counter ever other build. There is no ace in the hole. So you can’t fight a scrapper big deal. Knowing the strengths and weaknesses of a build should allow you to pick and choose your opportunities. So pick the matchup you want. If you find that there is NO matchup that you can win, then you have a build issue.

On the other hand reapers are apparently OP but they only have a tiny tiny window of projectile destruction and they’re otherwise kiting food.

I think projectile classes are in a bit of a weird place considering so many classes can easily fit projectile hate into their builds… But that means that classes like Reapers can circumvent that defense. Which means that projectile classes can kill the Reapers.

I dunno I do think it’s a problem but it’s hard to say it’s an easy one to answer. Elementalist spams projectile hate and they always have spammed projectile hate but I don’t know what the solution is. A lot of classes don’t carry that projectile hate, like Revenants and Reapers don’t.

Maybe Scrapper is just really, really strong? It’s hardly even the projectile hate that Scrapper has, it’s the everything hate. Dodges on a 12 second cooldown. Shock Shield. Toolkit shield. Elixir S. They have so many tools to just dodge every effect and the Gyro Shield pushes that even further in their court when they’re facing a projectile class.

Take 2 players.
1 is ranged. 1 is melee.
Make them duel.
At 60 range they can both hit each other.
At 180 range they can both hit each other.
At 300 range one can hit, the other can’t.
At 600 range one can hit, the other can’t.
At 900 range one can hit, the other can’t.
At 1200 range one can hit, the other can’t.
At 2000 range one can arguably hit, the other can’t.
Raise one up vertically by 180 units and one can hit, the other can’t

One player must constantly be closing gap distance in order to effectively hit. The other can hit up to 2000 range.

What observations can be drawn from this?
Range is inherently its own defense and provides a greater of scope of being able to effectively strike.

What conclusions can be drawn from these observations?
In order to keep ranged vs melee balanced one needs lots of gap closers that potentially cover up to 2000 units range.

What is the real world implications from conclusions made from observations?
To make every melee skill a gap closer is effectively making every melee skill a ranged skill.

Are the implications positive or negative?
They are negative. It is pointless to make every ranged skill ranged, then make every melee skill ranged as well.

So what is the best coarse of action we can take from this?
That projectile hate/destruction/ reflection and some use of gap closers is the best path to keeping ranged vs melee skills fairly even.

What do we currently have in game?
We have every profession being able to use ranged attacks to various degrees.
We have some forms of gap closers.
We have some forms of projectile hate.
We have every profession being able to melee.
We have every profession that has small and limited ways to gap close and projectile hate.

As you can see the equation is balancing itself here. With everyone being able to use range if they want, some engagements are going to be pew-pew each other from a distance. The person with the greatest distance has the advantage.

With all players having access to melee, some engagements are going to be toe to toe encounters.

With some players using only range (druid longbow/staff) and some players only using melee (berserker sword/torch-mace/shield) it is overall beneficial that blocks, reflects and destruction supplemented with gap closers remain in the game provided they never exceed the amount of projectile skills.

Which is what we currently have…..
We don’t need neo on this one to balance the equation. It is balancing itself.

@CntrlAltDefeat.1465

Not all ranged is projectile. That simple fact defeats a good chunk of your post.

Further, ranged damage is usually lower than melee damage in order to balance out the fact that ranged damage is safer and easier to land.

Here’s the problem:
Projectile hate is fine when it requires smart use in order to be effective. You waited and reflected that kill shot? Great! The rifle engi ran towards you and you pre-emptively put up a shield to stop overcharged shot? Great!

What we have now is you see a ranged user. You use projectile hate ability #1. It ends, you use projectile hate ability #2. It ends, you use other defense. After that you dodge. Take a few hits maybe and now you repeat because all of that is off cooldown. Timing it properly no longer matters because you can just chain it.

People aren’t arguing that there shouldnt be tools to fight ranged playstyles with. They are arguing that there are too many based on what those skills do and there cooldowns.

A good point has been made though that a large number of RANGED skills aren’t even EFFECTED by anti range skills. (I.E. Projectile reflection and destruction) Infact. Only one commonly used weapon is effected by them at all in signficiant ways. Longbows.

Shortbows aren’t used often (Thief is used for mobility and fields effects. Rangers is bad)

And every staff has a way of getting by reflects (Most staff skills are targeted aoes not projectiles)

Lets be honest. If ALL ranged skills were affected by reflects/projectile destruction these skills would flat out be nerfed in a HEARTBEAT.

One thing we can do is lower the number of individual reflection skills and repurpose them (defensive field could be a flat 20% damage reduction for allies in the bubble while applying weakness to enemies inside it turning it into a support skill with a wider range of uses).

This would make timing your reflects a bit more important instead of popping them off cooldown. (Oh he just swapped to longbow let me pop this now) instead of (Let me pop this now INCASE hes going to swap to longbow so he just can’t weapon swap at all)

Then we can make the actual reflects more powerful. Projectile destructions kills get changed to (Anyone outside this area CANNOT affect anyone inside this area without entering this area). And projectile reflection skills get repurposed to the sources stats. (If you eat your own rapid fire. You eat the WHOLE rapid fire. Not a dumbed down version of it. Meaning if you had 25 stacks of might as well as fury. Your probably gonna get kittened)

Since more often than not it seems like when you eat your own arrow it does no where near the damage it would have to the person your hitting.

I think this will be relieved when Anet finally start to take stuff away from Scrapper. I imagine Defense Field could see either a cooldown increase or a duration decrease, maybe something will be removed or changed from Hammer too. I imagine both Alchemy and Scrapper traitlines are up for the chop in places although this isn’t particular relevant to projectile reflect.

Scrapper already got nerfed in last patch you guys must just wanna see it completely dead like when everyone complained about turrets which weren’t that great to begin with, you could kill them pretty easily before but now they die if you just breath on them so nobody ever uses them anymore which is sad, they might as well remove them from the game they are so useless. Stop with all the nerf requests just request other things to get stronger so we can have more than 1 viable build to play on each profession. Thank you.

Exedore.6320:

@CntrlAltDefeat.1465

Not all ranged is projectile. That simple fact defeats a good chunk of your post.

Further, ranged damage is usually lower than melee damage in order to balance out the fact that ranged damage is safer and easier to land.

Here’s the problem:
Projectile hate is fine when it requires smart use in order to be effective. You waited and reflected that kill shot? Great! The rifle engi ran towards you and you pre-emptively put up a shield to stop overcharged shot? Great!

What we have now is you see a ranged user. You use projectile hate ability #1. It ends, you use projectile hate ability #2. It ends, you use other defense. After that you dodge. Take a few hits maybe and now you repeat because all of that is off cooldown. Timing it properly no longer matters because you can just chain it.

Ok..lets reduce this to numbers because you’re trying to over simplify now.
If I use only skills that can create a projectile finish as my means of projectile ranged, then there is 96 skills in game that can cause a projectile finisher.

If I take all skills that can reflect a projectile there is 20, and 6 of them need to be traited for the purpose or they will simply block now. A block is not projectile hate because it can used equally against melee or range.

If I take all skills that destroy projectiles in game, there is 3.

So there is;
96 projectile attacks.
14 reflects that don’t need traiting.
6 reflects that do need traiting/situation (eg iwarden/traited engi turrets)
3 projectile destroyers.

Any projectile attack that cannot be blocked or has had a skill used (signet of might) that does not allow it to be blocked will nullify reflection. However it will not nullify projectile destruction. Any attack that is miscellaneous (eg druid staff/ele scepter) which are neither melee or projectile will not be nullified by projectile destruction or reflect, but can be blocked.

My stated observations all make sense.
The maths supports the observations.
The game is not in need of balancing on this issue.
Neo can afford to take the blue pill on this one. He is not needed to balance the equation or the matrix.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

My stated observations all make sense.
The maths supports the observations.
The game is not in need of balancing on this issue.
Neo can afford to take the blue pill on this one. He is not needed to balance the equation or the matrix.

bullkitten.

you didnt do any math. and you havent drawn reasonable conclusions from your observations. simply saying “there are 96 projectiles and 23 projectile hates so nerfs are unnecessary” is not math and is not reasonable.

Ellie.5913:

Scrapper already got nerfed in last patch you guys must just wanna see it completely dead like when everyone complained about turrets which weren’t that great to begin with, you could kill them pretty easily before but now they die if you just breath on them so nobody ever uses them anymore which is sad, they might as well remove them from the game they are so useless. Stop with all the nerf requests just request other things to get stronger so we can have more than 1 viable build to play on each profession. Thank you.

What? A hammer leap CD increased 2 seconds (to 12) and the paltry sneak gyro CD increase is hardly the nerf scrapper needed. Things needs to be nerfed, not buffed, or the power-creep will spiral out of control and you can kiss the concept of “skilled play” goodbye.

Salamander.2504:

Ellie.5913:

Scrapper already got nerfed in last patch you guys must just wanna see it completely dead like when everyone complained about turrets which weren’t that great to begin with, you could kill them pretty easily before but now they die if you just breath on them so nobody ever uses them anymore which is sad, they might as well remove them from the game they are so useless. Stop with all the nerf requests just request other things to get stronger so we can have more than 1 viable build to play on each profession. Thank you.

What? A hammer leap CD increased 2 seconds (to 12) and the paltry sneak gyro CD increase is hardly the nerf scrapper needed. Things needs to be nerfed, not buffed, or the power-creep will spiral out of control and you can kiss the concept of “skilled play” goodbye.

From what I read in the update patch thing on Dulfy they nerfed some of it survivability too. (it was way tankyer before) Also coool keep asking for everything to get nerfed just gives me more incentive to not play since every single build I ever liked is no longer viable. I don’t really care anymore Also I don’t see any skilled play in ranked right now win/lose depends on if your’e on the high mmr team or the low mmr team and or if your’e on a premade team or pug team. All play ive seen this season before I quit was people slaughter and others get slaughtered, no “skill” or competition whatsoever.

Exedore.6320:

@CntrlAltDefeat.1465

Not all ranged is projectile. That simple fact defeats a good chunk of your post.

Further, ranged damage is usually lower than melee damage in order to balance out the fact that ranged damage is safer and easier to land.

Here’s the problem:
Projectile hate is fine when it requires smart use in order to be effective. You waited and reflected that kill shot? Great! The rifle engi ran towards you and you pre-emptively put up a shield to stop overcharged shot? Great!

What we have now is you see a ranged user. You use projectile hate ability #1. It ends, you use projectile hate ability #2. It ends, you use other defense. After that you dodge. Take a few hits maybe and now you repeat because all of that is off cooldown. Timing it properly no longer matters because you can just chain it.

Not everyone is running scrapper. You are blowing it out of proportions.

insanemaniac.2456:

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

My stated observations all make sense.
The maths supports the observations.
The game is not in need of balancing on this issue.
Neo can afford to take the blue pill on this one. He is not needed to balance the equation or the matrix.

bullkitten.

you didnt do any math. and you havent drawn reasonable conclusions from your observations. simply saying “there are 96 projectiles and 23 projectile hates so nerfs are unnecessary” is not math and is not reasonable.

All info is taken directly from information freely supplied and endorsed by arenanet.
The Observations are solid regarding ranged being inherently defensive.
The numbers are solid.
Throwing out “bull kitten” is a cop out.
Don’t get angry with me just because you never understood logic and premise and weren’t very sharp with numbers.

The available amount of projectile skills, their respective cool downs, their capacity of range and use far exceed any defense mechanics against them. That makes it a numbers game. When Value X exceeds Value Y then value X is greater than Y…there is no arguing this.

However maybe, just maybe you understand economics..you know, the study of allocating scarce resources ..

When Value projectile is high and Value projectile hate is low, and Value projectile hate is needed to counter Value projectile that makes Value projectile hate increase in value. It is only when value Projectile hate equals or exceeds Value projectile that regulation is now needed to prevent the complete collapse of Value projectile.

On any supply/demand curve archetype we aren’t even close to this point, so therefore it is not in need of balancing.

So far you have produced no sound observations apart from some whimsical anecdotal story about chaining dodges and evades and stringing together multiple reflects that instantly seem to always be off cool down.

You have given no numbers as to why projectile hate has gotten out of control in relation to projectile attacks.

The only thing remotely worth noting in all this is the statement “Projectiles do less damage, that’s what makes them balanced.” Wasn’t even addressed because it is a false claim. Gunflame, kill shot, rapid fire, unload, repeater, true shot, volley, overcharged shot, blunderbuss are currently in the top 10% of hardest hitting skills in game with only full berserker eviserate and back stabs coming remotely close to matching numbers with them.

You haven’t seen the proven sense in any of the information given here, so this just makes it whine now. There is no rhetoric or even factual data being presented here that dismisses anything I have said…which by the way, is all factual and premised in the most simple manner so even a 5 year old could understand it.

Present real data about how this is a real problem. Support with actual evidence. Underline it with statics highlighting the gross imbalance and you have a case to argue, but currently this is all just a hot join style whine.

Your the ones making the claim projectile hate is out of balance..that means the burden of evidence is on you to present.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

insanemaniac.2456:

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

My stated observations all make sense.
The maths supports the observations.
The game is not in need of balancing on this issue.
Neo can afford to take the blue pill on this one. He is not needed to balance the equation or the matrix.

bullkitten.

you didnt do any math. and you havent drawn reasonable conclusions from your observations. simply saying “there are 96 projectiles and 23 projectile hates so nerfs are unnecessary” is not math and is not reasonable.

All info is taken directly from information freely supplied and endorsed by arenanet.
The Observations are solid regarding ranged being inherently defensive.
The numbers are solid.
Throwing out “bull kitten” is a cop out.
Don’t get angry with me just because you never understood logic and premise and weren’t very sharp with numbers.

The available amount of projectile skills, their respective cool downs, their capacity of range and use far exceed any defense mechanics against them. That makes it a numbers game. When Value X exceeds Value Y then value X is greater than Y…there is no arguing this.

However maybe, just maybe you understand economics..you know, the study of allocating scarce resources ..

When Value projectile is high and Value projectile hate is low, and Value projectile hate is needed to counter Value projectile that makes Value projectile hate increase in value. It is only when value Projectile hate equals or exceeds Value projectile that regulation is now needed to prevent the complete collapse of Value projectile.

On any supply/demand curve archetype we aren’t even close to this point, so therefore it is not in need of balancing.

So far you have produced no sound observations apart from some whimsical anecdotal story about chaining dodges and evades and stringing together multiple reflects that instantly seem to always be off cool down.

You have given no numbers as to why projectile hate has gotten out of control in relation to projectile attacks.

The only thing remotely worth noting in all this is the statement “Projectiles do less damage, that’s what makes them balanced.” Wasn’t even addressed because it is a false claim. Gunflame, kill shot, rapid fire, unload, repeater, true shot, volley, overcharged shot, blunderbuss are currently in the top 10% of hardest hitting skills in game with only full berserker eviserate and back stabs coming remotely close to matching numbers with them.

You haven’t seen the proven sense in any of the information given here, so this just makes it whine now. There is no rhetoric or even factual data being presented here that dismisses anything I have said…which by the way, is all factual and premised in the most simple manner so even a 5 year old could understand it.

Present real data about how this is a real problem. Support with actual evidence. Underline it with statics highlighting the gross imbalance and you have a case to argue, but currently this is all just a hot join style whine.

Your the ones making the claim projectile hate is out of balance..that means the burden of evidence is on you to present.

no, i didnt say anything about whether i think it needs nerfing or not. i said your 3 pages worth of posts are crap. you sound mad and youre trying to say math supports you when you arent even considering anything besides “>” and “<”.

the most obvious thing to consider is % uptime. scrapper has 36% uptime on reflection with bulwark and hammer. if youre able to reach 50%, then you should be reflecting almost every projectile based attack, because its a bad build that uses projectiles all the time and doesnt have a swap to another weapon type, so a good build wont be using projectiles more than 50% of the time. so is 36% uptime too much? is it too much because the skills are reactive and not proactive? idk, idc, but i know scrapper needs a nerf, along with every other elite spec.

treat druid and tempest similarly. and then consider how much reflection uptime you can get from combining 2-3 people to think about teamfights. dont just be all “hahah u guys suck at balance cuz look at how many skills there r” because thats ridiculous.

Ellie.5913:

Salamander.2504:

Ellie.5913:

Scrapper already got nerfed in last patch you guys must just wanna see it completely dead like when everyone complained about turrets which weren’t that great to begin with, you could kill them pretty easily before but now they die if you just breath on them so nobody ever uses them anymore which is sad, they might as well remove them from the game they are so useless. Stop with all the nerf requests just request other things to get stronger so we can have more than 1 viable build to play on each profession. Thank you.

What? A hammer leap CD increased 2 seconds (to 12) and the paltry sneak gyro CD increase is hardly the nerf scrapper needed. Things needs to be nerfed, not buffed, or the power-creep will spiral out of control and you can kiss the concept of “skilled play” goodbye.

From what I read in the update patch thing on Dulfy they nerfed some of it survivability too. (it was way tankyer before) Also coool keep asking for everything to get nerfed just gives me more incentive to not play since every single build I ever liked is no longer viable. I don’t really care anymore Also I don’t see any skilled play in ranked right now win/lose depends on if your’e on the high mmr team or the low mmr team and or if your’e on a premade team or pug team. All play ive seen this season before I quit was people slaughter and others get slaughtered, no “skill” or competition whatsoever.

I don’t know what Dulfy patch you’re referring to, but in the only “meaningful” scrapper patch, they didn’t nerf it’s survivability. You probably found scrapper be to be tankier in season 1 because so many people were running low DPS bunkers. Before season 2, the tanky amulets were removed and now higher DPS builds are more prevalent.
From the June 26th’s patch:

Scrapper

Rocket Charge: The recharge of this skill has been increased from 10 seconds to 12 seconds.
Sneak Gyro: This skill’s recharge has been increased from 20 seconds to 40 seconds.
Expert Examination: Fixed an issue that prevented this trait from functioning with gyro explosions.
Stabilization Core: This trait has been merged into Final Salvo.
Perfectly Weighted: This trait is now on the adept tier. Decreased the stability granted by this trait from 2 stacks to 1 stack.
New Trait—Applied Force: Gain quickness when you gain might above the threshold.

As for you not seeing any skilled play this ranked season, well that’s because the elites dumbed down the game. If we nerf the elites down to core levels, we solve that problem.

Salamander.2504:

Ellie.5913:

Salamander.2504:

Ellie.5913:

Scrapper already got nerfed in last patch you guys must just wanna see it completely dead like when everyone complained about turrets which weren’t that great to begin with, you could kill them pretty easily before but now they die if you just breath on them so nobody ever uses them anymore which is sad, they might as well remove them from the game they are so useless. Stop with all the nerf requests just request other things to get stronger so we can have more than 1 viable build to play on each profession. Thank you.

What? A hammer leap CD increased 2 seconds (to 12) and the paltry sneak gyro CD increase is hardly the nerf scrapper needed. Things needs to be nerfed, not buffed, or the power-creep will spiral out of control and you can kiss the concept of “skilled play” goodbye.

From what I read in the update patch thing on Dulfy they nerfed some of it survivability too. (it was way tankyer before) Also coool keep asking for everything to get nerfed just gives me more incentive to not play since every single build I ever liked is no longer viable. I don’t really care anymore Also I don’t see any skilled play in ranked right now win/lose depends on if your’e on the high mmr team or the low mmr team and or if your’e on a premade team or pug team. All play ive seen this season before I quit was people slaughter and others get slaughtered, no “skill” or competition whatsoever.

I don’t know what Dulfy patch you’re referring to, but in the only “meaningful” scrapper patch, they didn’t nerf it’s survivability. You probably found scrapper be to be tankier in season 1 because so many people were running low DPS bunkers. Before season 2, the tanky amulets were removed and now higher DPS builds are more prevalent.
From the June 26th’s patch:

Scrapper

Rocket Charge: The recharge of this skill has been increased from 10 seconds to 12 seconds.
Sneak Gyro: This skill’s recharge has been increased from 20 seconds to 40 seconds.
Expert Examination: Fixed an issue that prevented this trait from functioning with gyro explosions.
Stabilization Core: This trait has been merged into Final Salvo.
Perfectly Weighted: This trait is now on the adept tier. Decreased the stability granted by this trait from 2 stacks to 1 stack.
New Trait—Applied Force: Gain quickness when you gain might above the threshold.

As for you not seeing any skilled play this ranked season, well that’s because the elites dumbed down the game. If we nerf the elites down to core levels, we solve that problem.

I don’t know all I know is every time I found a build that I liked and got used to it and enjoyed it, some one complained about it for some reason probably becuz it countered w/e they were playing at the time and they didn’t wanna change their play style so they demanded NERF nerf this nerf that nerf everything I’m having trouble beating. Sooo whatever build I liked and was used to and enjoyed got nerfed so bad that it was no longer viable, so no matter how much I wanted to play it I couldn’t cuz it was made to be completely useless. And I really don’t enjoy any of the current builds that everyone’s playing so it makes me not wanna play much. I just wish all the builds that got nerfed would come back and get un nerfed then maybe we could have a lot of builds to choose from instead of 1 or 2 and things would be more interesting. None of my builds in gw1 ever got nerfed to heck, (not to mention there was thousands of different build combos you could make there so things never got boring) they made other builds and skills more powerful but I really don’t remember any of my favorite builds there ever getting nerfed to the point of uselessness. Here there’s not even a lot of skills to make builds from, whatever we DO manage to make a useful build out of shouldn’t be getting nerfed to the point of uselessness leaving like only 1 or 2 builds that would even be viable.

It does feel like each class has 1 build to play and that’s it. Ele for example, you’re either an aura share, or you’re not going to be going much use. It’s frustrating, the lack of options for each class. I really wish that the classes had more options, like the original intention of the game was.

Zynt.5769:

It does feel like each class has 1 build to play and that’s it. Ele for example, you’re either an aura share, or you’re not going to be going much use. It’s frustrating, the lack of options for each class. I really wish that the classes had more options, like the original intention of the game was.

Yea, I’m one who likes to have many options otherwise I get bored and lose interest, I mean srsly who wants to be forced to play a build they don’t like just becuz its the only one that will work.

Ellie.5913:

Zynt.5769:

It does feel like each class has 1 build to play and that’s it. Ele for example, you’re either an aura share, or you’re not going to be going much use. It’s frustrating, the lack of options for each class. I really wish that the classes had more options, like the original intention of the game was.

Yea, I’m one who likes to have many options otherwise I get bored and lose interest, I mean srsly who wants to be forced to play a build they don’t like just becuz its the only one that will work.

I agree with you Ellie. People that are drawn to a class, let’s say Ele again, might want to be playing a nuke build, only to find out that the Ele has been shoved into a heal bot role. A role that the player might not want to play.

Granted that you can choose your own build, however it’s highly likely that it wouldn’t be as effective as the current Meta. It’s really disappointing that we seem to be getting less and less choice over time.

Zynt.5769:

Ellie.5913:

Zynt.5769:

It does feel like each class has 1 build to play and that’s it. Ele for example, you’re either an aura share, or you’re not going to be going much use. It’s frustrating, the lack of options for each class. I really wish that the classes had more options, like the original intention of the game was.

Yea, I’m one who likes to have many options otherwise I get bored and lose interest, I mean srsly who wants to be forced to play a build they don’t like just becuz its the only one that will work.

I agree with you Ellie. People that are drawn to a class, let’s say Ele again, might want to be playing a nuke build, only to find out that the Ele has been shoved into a heal bot role. A role that the player might not want to play.

Granted that you can choose your own build, however it’s highly likely that it wouldn’t be as effective as the current Meta. It’s really disappointing that we seem to be getting less and less choice over time.

Try the build in my sig for ele…. It’s exactly the nuke build you’re talking about. I know it looks bad on paper, but see how it feels to drop an immobilizing air overload or 15 stacks of burn ontop of a group.

The only issue is, people expect you to be heal aura share and will play carelessly expecting you to be their rez bot.